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blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
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gotowest
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:00:00 - [481]
 

Ccp hurry to do this!
LaughingLaughingLaughing

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.14 14:11:00 - [482]
 

Originally by: gotowest
Ccp hurry to do this!
LaughingLaughingLaughing

3rd alt in a row. xD

CCP, hurry to do this! LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.07.14 14:20:00 - [483]
 

Having to spend weeks training learning skills just so you can train at a decent rate means your new player sitting in the same t1 fitted rifer not being abble to fit new stuff for weeks. that HAS to be annoying. I know I didn't even bothered to do anything with my alts until those where done.

Cifese
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:43:00 - [484]
 

Originally by: Neu Bastian
Having to spend weeks training learning skills just so you can train at a decent rate means your new player sitting in the same t1 fitted rifer not being abble to fit new stuff for weeks. that HAS to be annoying. I know I didn't even bothered to do anything with my alts until those where done.

Choice. I've been running missions with my T1 fitted rifter while training them. There is no magic rule that you have to sit in station while training learning skills. If the skills didn't exist you wouldn't train them - so don't if you support this proposal.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.07.14 16:18:00 - [485]
 

Originally by: Neu Bastian
Having to spend weeks training learning skills just so you can train at a decent rate means your new player sitting in the same t1 fitted rifer not being abble to fit new stuff for weeks. that HAS to be annoying. I know I didn't even bothered to do anything with my alts until those where done.


An example of why a proposal that is dressed up as something for the new players (save the children!) is actually a proposal to make it easier for vets to train up alts.

What is best for an alt and what is best for a true new player are not the same.

Still not supporting removing Learning skills.

gankmeplz
Posted - 2010.07.15 06:17:00 - [486]
 

learning skills are used to separate long-term and short-term players.

siC0 b0b
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:58:00 - [487]
 

what, there's no problem with learning skills, who's complaining

how about CCP starts fixing the actual problems this game has

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:59:00 - [488]
 

Originally by: siC0 b0b
what, there's no problem with learning skills, who's complaining

how about CCP starts fixing the actual problems this game has

Agree. Starting with the alt-posting issue.

siC0 b0b
Posted - 2010.07.15 18:20:00 - [489]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Agree. Starting with the alt-posting issue.


You're an idiot for even saying that, not menioning the fact you don't know how AH even works.

Luru Parz
Dark Guard Corp
Posted - 2010.07.15 18:45:00 - [490]
 

If CCP plan on removing learning skills and I don't for a minute think they do then I suugest that they simply remove the books. Those that have trained the skills get to keep their attribute increases, those that haven't get to play the game not having to worry about training them.

Nice and simple solution.

Wandering Deathstriker
Posted - 2010.07.15 23:21:00 - [491]
 

One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points?
After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn.
In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...

This way, all the old timer's still have their attribute advantage, all the newbies won't be detracted by ship spinning right away and have a chance to experience the game, the depth/strategy to learning skills still remain in the game at no "initial" cost to newbies! The best part of it all, is you wouldn't need to reimburse skill points at all to anyone, rather you could simply extend the sp learning bonus for new characters just a little more.

-Wandering Deathstriker

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.07.16 00:05:00 - [492]
 

Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker
One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points?
After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn.
In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...

-Wandering Deathstriker


That's not bad...

Xorv
Posted - 2010.07.16 05:53:00 - [493]
 

Wow I see the "keep learning skill" posters are still coming up with some real winners. Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker
One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points?
After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn.
In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...

This way, all the old timer's still have their attribute advantage, all the newbies won't be detracted by ship spinning right away and have a chance to experience the game, the depth/strategy to learning skills still remain in the game at no "initial" cost to newbies! The best part of it all, is you wouldn't need to reimburse skill points at all to anyone, rather you could simply extend the sp learning bonus for new characters just a little more.

-Wandering Deathstriker


There's NO meaningful "depth" or "strategy" in respect to Learning Skills. How many times do the rest of us have to call shenanigans on this ridiculous claim?

Why do Older players need to have an attribute advantage? They already have in some cases several years of skill training over a new character. No new player will ever catch an older player in terms of skill points, without that older player canceling their account for a prolonged period of time. ... Even if CCP get rid of Learning skills and just add the difference to everyone's stats, older players will still have higher stats because no real new player is going to train cybernetics to V and dish out half a billion on +5 attribute implants... so yeah they'll still have an edge, just not as big, nor risk free.

Originally by: Luru Parz
If CCP plan on removing learning skills and I don't for a minute think they do then I suugest that they simply remove the books. Those that have trained the skills get to keep their attribute increases, those that haven't get to play the game not having to worry about training them.

Nice and simple solution.


Yeah thanks for this post, it sums up a lot of the "keep learning skill" posters very nicely. Basically a bunch of lamers. Very much akin to the Darkfall players I remember that rushed to squeeze every possible gain out of exploits, then rejoice when the developers eventually fix it and close off the "advantage" to everyone else. How pathetic are some of you that you feel the need to have a big training time advantage over new players that already are at a huge disadvantage simple by virtue of being new?


CCP Remove Learning Skills! Don't cater to a bunch of lamers!

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.16 13:49:00 - [494]
 

Learning skills hurt the re-supply of new players. Remove, ffs!

Sim Cognito
Cognito Consortium

Posted - 2010.07.16 15:03:00 - [495]
 

Definetely supported.Learning skills are a plague.

Icebok
Red Federation
Posted - 2010.07.16 17:59:00 - [496]
 

/signed

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:12:00 - [497]
 

Trebor, still around? When can we expect this proposal to be raised?

Galdornae
Caldari
Fat Ugly Guys Security
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:25:00 - [498]
 

Learning skills are fine.
If new players find them confusing well... what in this game isn't confusing for new players?

Not supported.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:43:00 - [499]
 

Originally by: Galdornae
Learning skills are fine.
If new players find them confusing well... what in this game isn't confusing for new players?

Not supported.

It's not about confusion. As a new player you have to wait few months to train your learning skills before you can actually start playing the game. This leads to loss of motivation => quit

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:56:00 - [500]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
As a new player you have to wait few months to train your learning skills before you can actually start playing the game. This leads to loss of motivation => quit


No, a new player does not have to spend a few months training anything before actually playing the game. I didn't. I started playing day one.

Saisio Arisu
Posted - 2010.07.17 03:03:00 - [501]
 

Edited by: Saisio Arisu on 17/07/2010 03:07:47
Hi.
This sound like an intresting topic.
First of all, remove those skills.
For diffrent reasons I have started to play with 3 chars, and each time I did have to train the learning skills which are a painfull process training to 5/5.

Yes, eve are loseing a lot of potensial new players to eve, I have several friends who have declined to start play it base on the fact of the learnings skills.
Training learning skills, taks about 2-3 months totaly, not strange that lot of potensial players are leaving the game because of that.




Norath84
The Executives
IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.17 05:07:00 - [502]
 


Bourdon
Posted - 2010.07.17 10:00:00 - [503]
 

Yes, please remove learning skills!

I would be happy with the proposed solution.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.17 10:12:00 - [504]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Trebor, still around? When can we expect this proposal to be raised?

Yes, I am still monitoring the thread. I am also gathering some data related to this proposal.

I am of the opinion that this issue is a very important one, and I want to make sure the proposal is as tight and useful as possible. Furthermore, after I actually formally raise it on the wiki, I want everyone to have a chance to comment on it.

For these reasons, it may not make it onto the docket for the next CSM meeting on the 25th.

PS: one thing that people who support the proposal could do to help is re-run the NPE and make a list of the tweaks that would be needed if either the OP's proposal or this counter-proposal was implemented. I plan to do this same this weekend if time permits.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.07.17 14:26:00 - [505]
 

Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker
One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points?
After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn.
In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...

-Wandering Deathstriker


What about this one Trebor?

It seems to me that if the motivation for this change is truly to "save the noobs" this proposal 100% addresses the concern of new pilots being put off by the learning skills - because those skills won't be available when someone first starts the game. A person would have time to get addicted to Eve before having the option to train them.

This is the simplest, least invasive, and most effective fix to the stated problem of new pilots being discouraged by learning skills. This requires no skill re-distribution, no attribute changes, none of the rest of the changes.

I would expect this idea to be dismissed by those who simply hate the learning skills and who are using "protecting the noobs" as an excuse to advocate having them removed so they can make alts faster.

However, this approach satisfies those of us who do believe that the learning skills add something to the game that would be a shame to lose, and it should satisfy those who are concerned about the effect of learning skills on new players.

Xorv
Posted - 2010.07.17 20:00:00 - [506]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker
One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points?
After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn.
In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...

-Wandering Deathstriker




Terrible counter proposal, if CCP implemented something like this it would actually **** me off way more than leaving existing Learning Skills as they are. This proposal of yours isn't about helping newbies at all, it's about keeping the status-quo and making it actually worse for newbies. It also completely ignores that a good many of us believe Learning Skills are bad game play/design irrespective of its negative impact of new player experience.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.17 20:40:00 - [507]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker
One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points?
After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn.
In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...

-Wandering Deathstriker


What about this one Trebor?

It seems to me that if the motivation for this change is truly to "save the noobs" this proposal 100% addresses the concern of new pilots being put off by the learning skills - because those skills won't be available when someone first starts the game. A person would have time to get addicted to Eve before having the option to train them.

The immediate problem I see is that it slows down initial noob skill acquisition, which is exactly what you don't want to do, given that noobs are more focused on instant gratification. The more achievements they get, the more they get sucked into the game.

Ideally, every time a noob logs off, there should be some some training goal that will be achieved by their next session (ie: the next day, so typically within the length of the skill training queue) that will let them try something new -- like a new ship, or a new aspect of EVE.

Of course, the ideal is impossible to achieve, but the closer you can get to it, and the less barriers you put in the way, the better.

Surrah
Supra Tenetur
Posted - 2010.07.17 22:43:00 - [508]
 

Not Supported

Na'kia
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade

Posted - 2010.07.17 23:13:00 - [509]
 

Great suggestion!

I hope it will be implemented soon ...

Postmodern Intellectual
Posted - 2010.07.18 08:45:00 - [510]
 

I think that this proposal is a better solution. But this is certainly better than the current system.


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