open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 12 13 14 15 [16] 17 18 19 20 ... : last (25)

Author Topic

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.07.08 15:55:00 - [451]
 

Originally by: R053
Originally by: Jasdemi

What point? Driving new players away who got a brain and don't want to waste their 3 months sub time just to sit in a station and train learnings? Good point, truly good point.


Who ever said u have to sit in the station doing nothing while training learning?


Exactly.

I had a great time my first few months in Eve. I explored, I mined, I shot things and got shot. I slowly worked learning skills in-between other skills for mods and ships I wanted to play with.

My first few months in Eve rank among my most fun times in the game (been playing almost 5 years), along with my first move out to 0.0 and the time right after the introduction of wormholes.

Anyone who doesn't leave the station until they train all learning has a SELF INFLICTED problem, it's not the game's fault. There's LOTS of things a new pilot with no skills can and should do to have fun.

Still not supporting the removal of learning skills.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.07.08 17:56:00 - [452]
 

I don't think everyone should receive +10 and 10%. I think that is a little bit too fast for training. I think everyone should receive like +8 and 10%. (But I guess it doesn't matter much)

Also I think CCP should refund the learning skill sp in lump sum - like the 100k sp we just received.

Captain Organs
ArmoredCore Armed Forces

Posted - 2010.07.08 22:19:00 - [453]
 

I'd love another 2.4m sp that I could reallocate. Supported!

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.09 13:45:00 - [454]
 

Up

Jorsalir
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:00:00 - [455]
 

Not supported, keep the learning skills. If people want to learn faster they will invest the time in them. If not, then they lag behind.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:36:00 - [456]
 

Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/07/2010 19:36:17
Originally by: Jorsalir
Not supported, keep the learning skills. If people want to learn faster they will invest the time in them. If not, then they lag behind.

Translation: I'm afraid of noobs who skill up their combat skills quicker and pwn me in pvp, because I have to player skill at all.

Simeon Whiteheaven
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:50:00 - [457]
 

No, I dont like this.

Not supported

Jurona
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:54:00 - [458]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/07/2010 19:36:17
Originally by: Jorsalir
Not supported, keep the learning skills. If people want to learn faster they will invest the time in them. If not, then they lag behind.

Translation: I'm afraid of noobs who skill up their combat skills quicker and pwn me in pvp, because I have to player skill at all.


I'm struggling to understand your logic.

I mean, you say it yourself... people who choose to do combat skills first will get the full benefit of the training bonus, so... yeah...

Ordavion
Posted - 2010.07.10 02:10:00 - [459]
 

This is a fail idea. EVE needs the learning skills...they add depth

Xorv
Posted - 2010.07.10 03:22:00 - [460]
 

Reading a lot of the comments and assertions by those opposed to removing Learning skills makes me feel like I'm witnessing the thoughts of people from another dimension where up is down, black is white, and wrong is right.

Seriously, can just one of you come up with logical argument supporting learning skill in EVE that makes sense this side of reality, and is not a poorly masked attempt to keep a perceived personal advantage?

How about the comment above mine... "Learning skills add Depth" Really?? Shocked Depth in what way? Because a lot of the rest of us aren't seeing it.


Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.07.10 05:31:00 - [461]
 

Originally by: Xorv
Reading a lot of the comments and assertions by those opposed to removing Learning skills makes me feel like I'm witnessing the thoughts of people from another dimension where up is down, black is white, and wrong is right.

Seriously, can just one of you come up with logical argument supporting learning skill in EVE that makes sense this side of reality, and is not a poorly masked attempt to keep a perceived personal advantage?

How about the comment above mine... "Learning skills add Depth" Really?? Shocked Depth in what way? Because a lot of the rest of us aren't seeing it.




Does the question of when to put money into savings versus when to spend money on stuff add depth to life?

Does the question of when to keep going to school versus when to enter the job market add depth to life?

If the answer to either or both of these questions is "yes" - learning skills add depth to Eve.

Skarsnik
Caldari
DarkArch Corp
Posted - 2010.07.10 06:24:00 - [462]
 

Not supported. As many have said new players are not forced to train them instead of 'Fun Skills'.

I've been playing since that fateful May 2003, I didn't train all the learning skills all at once, I'm now proabably behind a lot if not all 2k3 vets in SP total, but do I care, no really, I trained them as I went along when I felt I could, and they benefit me now, but overall I had more fun in those first 3-6 months than most as I avoided the brainwashing of 'Learning skills must be trained'

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.10 08:32:00 - [463]
 

Originally by: Skarsnik
Not supported. As many have said new players are not forced to train them instead of 'Fun Skills'.

I've been playing since that fateful May 2003, I didn't train all the learning skills all at once, I'm now proabably behind a lot if not all 2k3 vets in SP total, but do I care, no really, I trained them as I went along when I felt I could, and they benefit me now, but overall I had more fun in those first 3-6 months than most as I avoided the brainwashing of 'Learning skills must be trained'


2003 =/= 2010

Xorv
Posted - 2010.07.10 08:58:00 - [464]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

Does the question of when to put money into savings versus when to spend money on stuff add depth to life?


Not really. Also EVE already has a dynamic economy and economic choices that a player has to make that actually involves... well money (ISK). So, Learning Skills are not required to create this, it already exists without them.

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

Does the question of when to keep going to school versus when to enter the job market add depth to life?


Slightly. But this isn't even relevant to Learning skills in EVE, the direct comparison is training skills that actually do something. So, do I train a 2 day skill that gets me X, or do I put that 30 day investment to get Y. Don't know about you but of all my years at university and college I can only recall spending maybe 2 hours taking an optional workshop that was about learning to learn.

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

If the answer to either or both of these questions is "yes" - learning skills add depth to Eve.


No, even if both were true it doesn't lead to your conclusion. Lets be frank here Learning skills are no more than an arbitrary time sink. No amount of spin can change that.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.10 15:51:00 - [465]
 

I haven't heard one serious reason why learnings should NOT be removed. Looks like they will, very soon. :)

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2010.07.10 16:29:00 - [466]
 

and i hope that happens ASAP, they are utteraly useless. I hurts me when a new player spends weeks of his time in a frig, wituot anything to do, doing learning skills. While i try to prevent such stupidity where i can, some silly people somewhere suffer.

Kaeron Sunkeeper
Posted - 2010.07.10 19:21:00 - [467]
 

Totaly Support this post

Remove Learning Skills
Add the atributes + Learning Skills benefits when maxed out

Reinburst Players who Spent Points in em so the can relocate them to anywhere they want

And for people who go around saying "ohh I spent Time learning em SOOO u should 2 andd its unfair blabla"

First Stop being selfish pricks! Just cuz u had to spend time on it and now other might have a chance to have more fun and a easier start (cuz the have has already stiff learning curve as it is!) doesnt mean other have to spend that time!
Second Maxed Skill benefit + Reinburstment IS MORE than fair, you will NOT loose a single thing if this change happes! Will be helpfull for everyone! AND even for u elder player if u plan to start an alt to help you out!
Third "Learning skills are part of game deal with itt blabla" If being ****d by carrots was part of game would u endure it?
It is called evolution Happens in every reality so stop being closed minded fools and selfish! MMo's are a virtual reality so it is object of changes. To improve experience. Simple.. Removing Learning Skill will improve Experience and allow new players to have some fun early game in a already RLY hard game no need to make things harder.. so yes..


100% Support onto this :D

Amelia Ryan
Gallente
Aliastra

Posted - 2010.07.10 20:38:00 - [468]
 

Edited by: Amelia Ryan on 10/07/2010 20:38:12
OP supported.

Makes it fair for new & old.

Edit: forgot thumbs up.

Ninshiki
Posted - 2010.07.11 00:50:00 - [469]
 

Edited by: Ninshiki on 11/07/2010 00:59:43
Moved post to the larger thread.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.11 10:34:00 - [470]
 

Trolls, angry vets who are protecting learning skills sound like this to me so far:

"Oh god, please. Don't let EVE evolve. Even if learning skills were a mistake and are just broken mechanics, don't let them remove it. Please let me play a broken game. Also I strongly disagree with the removal of learnings, since they will lower the steep learn curve a bit for the newbies. Hell no, don't let newbies ever have a chance to start playing. I want the game all for myself"

Nagsir Inaste
Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.11 20:01:00 - [471]
 

Would make EVE a better game, and provide a fair solution to everyone.

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2010.07.12 07:07:00 - [472]
 

Counter Proposal:

1. New Characters are created with all the skills in the learning subgroup trained to level III, including the advanced skills.

2. Increase the 100% training bonus cut off to account for the SP added by these gifted skills to level III.

3. Change the prerequisite for advanced learning skills to level III of the primary skill instead of IV.

4. Existing Characters are given SP pool equal to all the learning skills trained to level 3. (no matter if they have the skills trained or not)

5. Reimbursement of isk? Do not care one way or the other about this.

Rationale:

If the new character experience is the actual catalyst behind this proposal, it seems the OP is excessive. Why not a solution that eliminates the obsession with training the skills without unjustly rewarding or punishing existing players for the choices they have made thus far?

New players would now have less obsession to station spin while skills are trained, yet they still have an option which has not diluted the depth of the game.

Existing players still benefit from the choices they have made thus far without penalty or undue reward.

This is a solution I could support.


I can not support the OP. It devalues the benefit that players expected and relied upon when they made their original choices.


This taken from my reponse in the other thread on this topic.





Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.12 11:13:00 - [473]
 

Patri, this is an interesting compromise suggestion.

I would like to see more discussion of this idea in this thread, as it may be useful as an alternative to present to CCP. It does have the advantage of being easier to implement (well, probably).

Can someone please run the numbers on how much training time this would save noobs? Further, how can noobs be encouraged to not continue training the learning skills during the double-rate period?

Brodit
Gallente
Dark Harlequin
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:39:00 - [474]
 

Over my dead and stinking carcass. Evil or Very Mad

I started playing eve 4.5 years ago and unlike most newcomers to the game I had spent some time researching Eve's "proffessions", skills and game mechanics. Way back then I knew I would like eve, and so to get the most benefit out of my $20 a month subscription, I trained Basic Learning to V (the prerequisite for Adv Learning at the time) followed by Adv Learning 4. See these are RL reasons, they have nothing to do with Eve and everything to do with value for money. The higher my stats, the quicker I train and improve my return rate. So I had to run around in a frig for a while longer than i would have, by the time i was ready for a cruiser/bc/bs i had the peripheral skills required to fly them properly, (be honest how many of you charged through the ships only to get them torn apart by a hisec belt spawn)Rolling Eyes.

Now lets move on to the real issue. Of those opposed to Learning how many have been outstripped by younger players who were more diligent in their training. By the time i was 3 yrs i had the same sps of people playing since 04. Now probably 03. I notice with interest that most want the 50 points in their stats (10 points per att) and the 10% but don't want the hassle of traing the skills.Wink

The only way this could be fairly introduced is if they worked out who got what sps from what learning skills and correlate against which version Eve the char was born in as the character generation has changed radically since the days we got the average 30 points in atts. Now i believe it is 43.

Counter proposal, remove the Learning skills, the additional attribute points and the 10% bonus. Give every char with learning skills the equivelent sps to allocate as they see fit, and give the oldest players as many attribute points as it takes to give them parity with newer chars.

Okay then I was being sarcastic, now bury this motion before I puke, or worse ask for the removal of missile skill and science skill trees.Twisted Evil

Niyrah
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:48:00 - [475]
 

Edited by: Niyrah on 12/07/2010 20:08:51
No....Learning skills are fine as is.

Why is everyone so bent on fixing something that isn't broken?

But.....Patri, you bring up the best counter proposal I've seen so far. Well thought out.

Xorv
Posted - 2010.07.12 20:15:00 - [476]
 

Originally by: Patri Andari

Rationale:

If the new character experience is the actual catalyst behind this proposal, it seems the OP is excessive. Why not a solution that eliminates the obsession with training the skills without unjustly rewarding or punishing existing players for the choices they have made thus far?

New players would now have less obsession to station spin while skills are trained, yet they still have an option which has not diluted the depth of the game.

Existing players still benefit from the choices they have made thus far without penalty or undue reward. [...]



New player experience is one of the primary problems with learning skills, but it isn't the sole reason to remove them. Learning Skills are in of themselves just bad game design. They do not add "depth" to the game, they don't make sense in terms of realism, and they aren't fun for anyone but the most deranged min/maxers. The only thing Learning Skills add is a meaningless time sink.

No one is punished or rewarded by removing Learning skills. No one's getting the benefits they gained in the past from learning skills taken away, nor is anyone being given the benefits of learning skills previously lost over the years/months by those who didn't train them. What's past is past and won't be changed.

There's no compromise on the Learning Skills themselves, they're bad game play and need to removed entirely.

Something I think that can be compromised on is what Learning Skills are replaced with. Rather than giving everyone the equivalent of maxed Learning Skills to their attributes, I think it would be reasonable to only give players a portion of that (say 4/4/5 for example) and make the difference with new attribute enhancing items such as enhanced implants or learning boosters as I suggested in another thread.


Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.13 10:19:00 - [477]
 

Learnings are totally wrong in EVE and yet trolling vets support them. lol

irion felpamy
Minmatar
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2010.07.13 10:29:00 - [478]
 

They are rubbish just get rid of them. give a flat +5 to stats, give a flat +11 I don't really care.

Windwizard
Posted - 2010.07.13 14:43:00 - [479]
 

good idea!I agree with you!
Ccp hurry to do this!Very HappyVery HappyVery HappyVery Happy

Dominatio ZR
Posted - 2010.07.14 06:59:00 - [480]
 

Very HappyVery HappyGOOD!


Pages: first : previous : ... 12 13 14 15 [16] 17 18 19 20 ... : last (25)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only