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blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
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Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective

Posted - 2010.07.02 14:10:00 - [331]
 

Supported 100%

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.02 14:13:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: Takseen

...And that's why the pro learning skills crowd will never quit...



The pro learning skills crowd will never quit because the anti learning skills crowd is equally relentless. You would like for this to end? Give up now.

Kuikiker
WALLTREIPERS

Posted - 2010.07.02 14:16:00 - [333]
 

Supported

Lost Troll
Lethal Dosage.
Violent Society
Posted - 2010.07.02 15:07:00 - [334]
 

For a new player, there are just too many skills need to be trained to get to the same level as some one starting out a few years ago since the game dynamics have changed so much over the years.

The learning skills were a good time/ISK sink back when there were not many skills in the game and players could make ISK just in doing one or two things. Now we jump to forward and there are now over 350+ skills in the game. ISK making has been nerfed to the point that you have to do 4 to 5 different things to make ISK to support your self.

PVP'ing has also now changed to the point that T2 cruisers/fitted battleships is a normal de facto if you want to have a fair chance at doing it.

They need to go.

BjornarGoesToSpace
Blue Republic
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:00:00 - [335]
 

Use the current system they just implemented and give skillpoints back to those who invested in learningskills. And yes i know most people benefitted from training learningskills but its still skillpoints removed and it should be reimbursed.
Supported.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:12:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Corina Jarr

Are you ignoring the multiple new players who posted that they appreciated the learning skills as something to slow them down so they could get perspective on this huge new world?

And as I've said many times, anyone who sits in the station while training learning skills needs to find another game, cause they won't survive well in EVE. While training those skills, you can do some of the career missions, you can learn how boring mining is (or enjoyable, if you like that sort of thing), you can learn to steel cans from noob minors (not condoning of courseWink), you can even venture into low sec... in fact its best to go into low sec early, so you don't risk implants and it will take a while to get the close-to-risk-free jump clones.


I'm not ignoring the pro-learning skills newbies, I recognised that its a personal preference thing a post or two ago. My point was that the anti-learning skills newbies who are *really* put off by them obviously aren't here due to no longer playing Eve:)
And that only CCP have a full picture of which type are the majority from looking at those surveys people fill out when they unsub.

And yes, you don't have to sit in a station while you train LS. But that early exploration you suggested would only be more enjoyable if they could actually train skills relevant to each career path.
And if you can find one newbie poster who said that early skill progression would be too fast without learning skills to slow it down, I will be very impressed and a little astounded:)

Clovermite
Kamikaze Fleet Command
Kamikaze Project
Posted - 2010.07.02 18:45:00 - [337]
 

Edited by: Clovermite on 02/07/2010 18:45:56
Hey I'm all for being able to train faster - approved.

I am rather curious though:

CCP just awarded every player a set of skill points to allocate wherever they chose.

Likewise, they could refund all players the SPs they put into learning skills. As for the money spent on the books, CCP could also refund them the NPC cost of the skill books required for said skills.

What did people not like about this solution?


Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.02 18:49:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: Clovermite
Edited by: Clovermite on 02/07/2010 18:45:56
Hey I'm all for being able to train faster - approved.

I am rather curious though:

CCP just awarded every player a set of skill points to allocate wherever they chose.

Likewise, they could refund all players the SPs they put into learning skills. As for the money spent on the books, CCP could also refund them the NPC cost of the skill books required for said skills.

What did people not like about this solution?




People who disapprove:
  • 70% trolls

  • 10% are people who couldn't read the suggestion

  • 20% are angry vets with no RL and don't want new players to join the game

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.02 19:14:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Clovermite
Edited by: Clovermite on 02/07/2010 18:45:56
Hey I'm all for being able to train faster - approved.

I am rather curious though:

CCP just awarded every player a set of skill points to allocate wherever they chose.

Likewise, they could refund all players the SPs they put into learning skills. As for the money spent on the books, CCP could also refund them the NPC cost of the skill books required for said skills.

What did people not like about this solution?




People who disapprove:
  • 70% trolls

  • 10% are people who couldn't read the suggestion

  • 20% are angry vets with no RL and don't want new players to join the game



I have a similarly clever list:

People who approve of this:
50% Self-righteous whiners with a run-away sense of entitlement
50% Drooling, diaper-****ting, booger eaters


You what my list adds to this discussion that yours doesn't? Nothing! They are both equally asinine!

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.07.02 19:19:00 - [340]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 02/07/2010 20:05:33
Originally by: Jasdemi

People who disapprove:
  • 70% trolls

  • 10% are people who couldn't read the suggestion

  • 20% are angry vets with no RL and don't want new players to join the game



Sorry, but this type of arguments is very juvenile:
“If you don't agree with me you must either be stupid, or a troll or you live in momas basement lolololol”

Don't bring this down to this level please.

Lets try to keep this as a somewhat civil debate although this subject obviously induce a lot of emotions. I think it has been interesting to read both sides of the argument and the video link shows that CCP is aware of that this is a hot potato. Will be interesting to see how this will be resolved. The drama! Razz

Ohmiri
Posted - 2010.07.02 20:21:00 - [341]
 

I am a noob, started just a couple of weeks ago.

I'm not in any particular hurry, so as I went through the tutorials and read the wiki, it seemed to me to be the best strategy to train up to Learning 5 and the other learning skills to 4. I did and I enjoyed it. I'll still have a few hundred K points of my 1.6 million bonus after Analytical Mind 5 completes tomorrow -- 83 skills total, about 680K in Learning.

I only hope the CCP solution is fair for those of us who spent some of their 100% bonus on Learning and who have not played the game long enough to fully reap the long-term benefits thereof -- i.e, the opportunity cost. The proposal doesn't seem to consider this. I admit I have not read the bulk of the other messages, so I do not know if someone else has pointed this out. 2x for Learning points spent during the bonus might be fair.

I do not understand why (1) is fair to those who spent points on Learning because those who did not would receive the same benefit.


Chilton Haynes
Posted - 2010.07.02 20:33:00 - [342]
 

I do NOT support any modification of the Learning Skills

I have invested time by my own choosing. Train them if you want or don't.


Clovermite
Kamikaze Fleet Command
Kamikaze Project
Posted - 2010.07.02 21:20:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Ohmiri

I only hope the CCP solution is fair for those of us who spent some of their 100% bonus on Learning and who have not played the game long enough to fully reap the long-term benefits thereof -- i.e, the opportunity cost. The proposal doesn't seem to consider this.



There are really only two opportunity costs for investing in Learning:

1) Potential time wasted doing activities you are bored because you don't have access to the skills to do activities you really want to do.

2) Skill points invested in a "meta skill" instead of one that would actually get you something.

The devs have no control over time and can't give you that back, but they can reimburse your skill points. The proposal DOES take this into consideration by giving you a temporary boost in training time equivalent to how many SPs you've put into learning.

Originally by: Ohmiri

I do not understand why (1) is fair to those who spent points on Learning because those who did not would receive the same benefit.



It's fair because, without learning skills, all players would be operating at the same training times (not considering implants). Personally, I would prefer that we all train faster rather than slower.

Originally by: Ohmiri

2x for Learning points spent during the bonus might be fair.



I forgot about the initial bonus period. This sounds like a good idea - bigger increase in temporary training time boost for SPs allocated during bonus period.


Inari Valar
Posted - 2010.07.02 21:30:00 - [344]
 

I'd support this change. Learning skills need to be removed.

One change I'd make is to not give everyone +10 to each attribute immediately. Instead, I'd phase it in gradually as players gain SP. Every 500k SP gives someone +1 to an attribute, until they reach +10. This means that new specialty alts won't be able to train incredibly quickly towards specific builds, while new players who play for a few months will still gradually get the +10 bonus.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.02 22:49:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Inari Valar
I'd support this change. Learning skills need to be removed.

One change I'd make is to not give everyone +10 to each attribute immediately. Instead, I'd phase it in gradually as players gain SP. Every 500k SP gives someone +1 to an attribute, until they reach +10. This means that new specialty alts won't be able to train incredibly quickly towards specific builds, while new players who play for a few months will still gradually get the +10 bonus.


I like this idea, its similar to one the devs suggested in the fanfest video of having a dual progression of learning and regular skills.

Corina Jarr
Posted - 2010.07.02 23:36:00 - [346]
 

Edited by: Corina Jarr on 02/07/2010 23:38:22
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Inari Valar
I'd support this change. Learning skills need to be removed.

One change I'd make is to not give everyone +10 to each attribute immediately. Instead, I'd phase it in gradually as players gain SP. Every 500k SP gives someone +1 to an attribute, until they reach +10. This means that new specialty alts won't be able to train incredibly quickly towards specific builds, while new players who play for a few months will still gradually get the +10 bonus.


I like this idea, its similar to one the devs suggested in the fanfest video of having a dual progression of learning and regular skills.

Now this I would support. It would make sense, instead of learning from a book, you learn by doing.



Quote:
I'm not ignoring the pro-learning skills newbies, I recognised that its a personal preference thing a post or two ago. My point was that the anti-learning skills newbies who are *really* put off by them obviously aren't here due to no longer playing Eve:) And that only CCP have a full picture of which type are the majority from looking at those surveys people fill out when they unsub.

I understand now. Thank you for clarifying.

Hesperius
Posted - 2010.07.03 00:18:00 - [347]
 

Learning skills are going to be removed.

I approve of this method.

Mr TextBig
Posted - 2010.07.03 00:52:00 - [348]
 

This can also be supported in a RP perspective

What did the characters do in their university(before the were created by player)? How could all of them graduate without knowing anything even how to learn??

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.03 03:13:00 - [349]
 

Ok, having read the various threads and thinking about it some more, I'm willing concede that the 'keep learning skills as is' crowd aren't completely[1] full of it.


I think we all can admit that the learning skills are mostly bearable in small doses. You don't need to train Charisma if you just want a PvP pilot. You don't need 5/5 in Perception and Willpower before you train Frigates V. We don't need to save every possible minute of training.

For us old timers, the learning skills were more bearable in the old days because we had a *CHOICE* as to when we could train the learning skills. Our attributes were fixed (no remaps) and there was no accelerated training bonus, so it didn't matter if we trained Charisma to 5/4 right away or put it off for a few years. It wasn't a big deal if we stopped training the learning skills to switch to a short term skill that provided more fun factor.

The problem is that newbies no longer feel they have a choice on when they can train the learning skills. Newbies can get almost 16 days of learning skills before the 1.6 million cut off (Evemon- optimized attrubtes, no implants.) Any day not spent on learning skills becomes two days of training/boredom later.

Newbies also get two remaps. The first remap can be used to maximize mem/int for the learning skills. This gives the newbie one final remap with which to focus on their primary interest. Further remaps are a year away. Thus, there's a strong incentive to get the most out of your first remap which means training the learning skills to a high level.

The accelerated bonus time and two free remaps make it possible to, and encourage newbies to SPECIALIZE in training the learning skills. Specialization, by definition, prevents choice. It's this perceived lack of choice that has caused the learning skills to become so hated recently.

tl;dr
The learning skills aren't the problem. The accelerated training time and two initial remaps are the problem.



[1] "Mostly" is a better word. I'm all about compromise. ;-)


RalphsInTown
Gallente
Great Sage Equaling Heaven
Blade.
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:14:00 - [350]
 

sign, I would be more than happy Very Happy

kikonon
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:22:00 - [351]
 

good bump

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:30:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Inari Valar
I'd support this change. Learning skills need to be removed.

One change I'd make is to not give everyone +10 to each attribute immediately. Instead, I'd phase it in gradually as players gain SP. Every 500k SP gives someone +1 to an attribute, until they reach +10. This means that new specialty alts won't be able to train incredibly quickly towards specific builds, while new players who play for a few months will still gradually get the +10 bonus.


This I could adn would gladly support. It's not a out of the gate bonus package for instant gratification, and yet still gives the ability for people to ignore the trainign skills and go for the fun stuff.

Originally by: stoicfaux


tl;dr
The learning skills aren't the problem. The accelerated training time and two initial remaps are the problem.




I think this is a very possible thing and could be worth actually discussing. After all, why wouldn't people encourage others to maximize there total trainign time when such an obvious "push" method is set in place to accelerate it from the get go. Not to mention, new players don't get a feel for EVE's TRUE training speed until after the 1.6mil mark.

edokingshopper
Posted - 2010.07.03 06:42:00 - [353]
 

totally supported
i really hate learning:(

Rer Eirikr
Gallente
Clearly Compensating
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.03 06:48:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
The accelerated bonus time and two free remaps make it possible to, and encourage newbies to SPECIALIZE in training the learning skills. Specialization, by definition, prevents choice. It's this perceived lack of choice that has caused the learning skills to become so hated recently.


That's a very intelligent way of looking at it, nicely done sir. Its not so much of a choice when the system blatantly gives you incentives to get them out of the way. The above idea of slowly giving attributes over time not only makes sense, but also (as the above poster above me shows) draws a larger crowd into the supporting area given that it removes instant-gratification from the argument. This could be the compromise that sets such an action forward. Cool

SanaeKotiya
Posted - 2010.07.03 07:03:00 - [355]
 

Support.

Hopes this solution could help newbies to "real" enter this game faster and easier

Ogirl
Posted - 2010.07.03 07:44:00 - [356]
 

Support

Markser
Posted - 2010.07.03 07:48:00 - [357]
 

Edited by: Markser on 03/07/2010 07:48:35
A very good suggestion, taking several weeks on learning skills is boring to everyone especially the newbies.

GENIUS'JK
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:23:00 - [358]
 

Supported
Please ccp hurry up and do this!

Yui Gloria
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:28:00 - [359]
 

That would save players a lot of time and help rookies get into this game quickly.

Good idea.

Sylvaner Trojan
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:34:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Kaya Divine
Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.

Solution

  • 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes


10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.

  • 2. Remove all learning skills.


Like they never existed.

  • 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.


Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.

That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.


Now, the question is:
Would you be totally satisfied with this change?






good idea.


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