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blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente
Fags R Us
Posted - 2010.07.01 13:53:00 - [301]
 

Originally by: Makumba Aki
It is annoying to train up learnings. So please remove them.

Waht comes as next?

It is annoying to train BS from IV to V, make it go much quicker.

Newbies want to fly capitals a week after they have started, make the training go quicker and give them 10 bil isk.

Introduce joystick-control to eve.

Make eve X-Box compatible.

No! No! No! It is just the wrong way to go!
Much better would it be to give the newbies 1,5m SP for their disposal. So the still would need to decide whether they invest them in learnings or in spaceship command to fly big shiny ships right now.


I could agree to that idea, you'd have to give out the skillbooks for free too though I guess.
People will still cry as it's still "not fair" though.
Truth be told, all the training skills do is divide the "want nows" and the "want long terms" squarely down the middle.

I can see it being a thin end of a wedge if learning skills are removed.
give people +10's
too many support skills so everyone starts with lvl 3 in them, etc etc etc

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.01 13:54:00 - [302]
 

Edited by: Pantload on 01/07/2010 16:09:29
Not supporting this idea.

This proposal is a whole lot of "something for nothing". If you want the learning skills removed, then remove them. No free bonuses for anyone.


If this proposal passes, what's next then? I think the same people who support this proposal will be begin screaming that cyber implants are not fair either. I mean...a new player can't use +5's right? He or she would have to train a skill. That skill would take a while. The implants are expensive. New players can't have that right away and that's not fair to them! Right? Let's do away with implants too or give all new players Cybernetics 5 and full sets of +5 implants! It's fair because older players are already ahead of them and so they shouldn't have to work through the rules of the game to achieve any of that. It should all just be given free right up front! Right?

*edit*
I thought I was being cute about that, but...I just read in another thread a player proposing to remove the attribute implants and just give +5 to everyone! There is no end to this. Giving in to this proposal is a slippery slope and the whiners will only ever want more and more and more for less and less and less.

Admiral Chrom
Posted - 2010.07.01 14:04:00 - [303]
 

there is no time to waste, remove the learning skills :D

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.07.01 14:09:00 - [304]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 15:08:18
Originally by: Takseen

Would new players have it easier then veterans with learning skills gone. Not really, since the vets are already ahead in every measurable way. More knowledge, more connections, more skillpoints, more ISK, so there's no reason they should feel threatened or aggrieved by a chance there. New players just get to feel more useful a bit earlier, no big deal. The rest of the skill system still provides a good pacing mechanism to stop them hopping into battleships in week 2.


CCP have constructed their game so that new players are at a disadvantage compared to veterans. It is a game-design. The whole skill-system puts new players at a disadvantage, not just learning skills. As I said, it did not have to be this way. You could get the skills by plugging them in and they could be cheap as dirt. Or you could have all skills to begin with.

Those that now are veterans have also been new players, that is important to remember.

Jasdiva
Posted - 2010.07.01 16:50:00 - [305]
 


Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.01 17:20:00 - [306]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 17:20:13
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 15:08:18

CCP have constructed their game so that new players are at a disadvantage compared to veterans. It is a game-design. The whole skill-system puts new players at a disadvantage, not just learning skills. As I said, it did not have to be this way. You could get the skills by plugging them in and they could be cheap as dirt. Or you could have all skills to begin with.

Those that now are veterans have also been new players, that is important to remember.


So you agree that removing learning skills would not remove the advantage veterans have rightfully earned for having subscribed and played for longer?

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.01 18:15:00 - [307]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 17:20:13
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 15:08:18

CCP have constructed their game so that new players are at a disadvantage compared to veterans. It is a game-design. The whole skill-system puts new players at a disadvantage, not just learning skills. As I said, it did not have to be this way. You could get the skills by plugging them in and they could be cheap as dirt. Or you could have all skills to begin with.

Those that now are veterans have also been new players, that is important to remember.


So you agree that removing learning skills would not remove the advantage veterans have rightfully earned for having subscribed and played for longer?


I can't be sure but I don't think that's the point they were making. Having read a variety of your posts now, though, I can say you are quite adept at putting words in people's mouths. I'll wager that you are a salesperson in RL. I can see the assumptive sales technique in a great many of your posts. Once I look past your nearly religious hatred of learning skills, your obvious bias, and your nauseating sense of entitlement, your salesmanship skills can be seen.

To further address your last statement, of course removing the learning skills removes ( as you yourself called it ) an "advantage veterans have rightfully earned for having subscribed and played for longer". You want to give that rightfully earned ability for training speed to the newest of the new and the most worthless of the unwilling. You are contradicting yourself.

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:26:00 - [308]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 19:37:00
Originally by: Takseen
Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 17:20:13
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 15:08:18

CCP have constructed their game so that new players are at a disadvantage compared to veterans. It is a game-design. The whole skill-system puts new players at a disadvantage, not just learning skills. As I said, it did not have to be this way. You could get the skills by plugging them in and they could be cheap as dirt. Or you could have all skills to begin with.

Those that now are veterans have also been new players, that is important to remember.


So you agree that removing learning skills would not remove the advantage veterans have rightfully earned for having subscribed and played for longer?

I think you are trying to deflect the point I'm trying to make here, or you just don't grasp it. To me this is not a matter of safeguarding advantages for veterans as you are insinuating with your question.

The skill-system is designed in a way that puts new players at a disadvantage compared to veterans. Therefore, saying that learning skills should be removed because they put new players at a disadvantage is not really a valid argument. Obviously, if the goal was to design a skill-system that did not put new players at a disadvantage, then training time should be removed completely.

Removing learning skills would of course remove one of the disadvantages that new players have to face. So, yes, new players today would have a faster and easier rout to skills compared to those that had very little starting SP, no accelerated training time and had to train learning skills to get up to speed.

The question will then be: Why stop there? Why not keep spoon-feeding new players all kinds of stuff to make it easier on them? Because if learning skills are such a turn off for new players, most likely they will find another obstacle they will not like, that will put them off.

Rer Eirikr
Gallente
Clearly Compensating
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.01 19:41:00 - [309]
 

Originally by: Jack Icegaard
The question must then be. Why stop there? Why not keep spoon-feeding new players all kind of stuff to make it easier on them? Because if learning skills are such a turn off for new players, rest assured that they will find another obstacle they will not like, that will put them off.


I in no way mean to show a lack of respect for opposing opinions. However...

"In debate or rhetoric, a slippery slope is a classical informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom."

While I can understand your concern, you should consider the fact that just this one debate is a very heated and passionate one. Both sides bring valid points to the argument. "If" Learning Skills were removed, should any new arguments calling for similar changes appear, I'd be confident that such passions would prevent the "Slippery Slope Collaspe" of EVE.

That said, in my opinion, the cons of Learning Skills outweigh the pros. Whether that holds true to the majority of the playerbase remains to be seen however, and I fully understand the opposition's concerns. I simply mean to show that such an argument isn't really valid.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:03:00 - [310]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 20:40:42
Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 20:03:53
Originally by: Jack Icegaard

I think you are trying to deflect the point I'm trying to make here, or you just don't grasp it. To me this is not a matter of safeguarding advantages for veterans as you are insinuating with your question.

The skill-system is designed in a way that puts new players at a disadvantage compared to veterans. Therefore, saying that learning skills should be removed because they put new players at a disadvantage is not really a valid argument. Obviously, if the goal was to design a skill-system that did not put new players at a disadvantage, then training time should be removed completely.






I'm not making that argument though. I don't give a toss if veterans have 50 or 500 million more skill points than me since I'm not in direct competition with them. Its those who don't want learning skills removed that say its unfair to vets and will close the gap. I don't care, I just want the extremely strong incentive for new players to not train useful skills for their first days/weeks/months to be removed. If they rolled that time into slightly longer training time needed for other skills, it'd be a decent compromise.

Edit : And yeah, the slippery slope argument is weak.
Edit2 : And I think learning skills are sufficiently different to other skills that to justify removing them. Note the absence of any other complaints about other skill training times.

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:18:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Rer Eirikr
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
The question must then be. Why stop there? Why not keep spoon-feeding new players all kind of stuff to make it easier on them? Because if learning skills are such a turn off for new players, rest assured that they will find another obstacle they will not like, that will put them off.


I in no way mean to show a lack of respect for opposing opinions. However...

"In debate or rhetoric, a slippery slope is a classical informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom."

While I can understand your concern, you should consider the fact that just this one debate is a very heated and passionate one. Both sides bring valid points to the argument. "If" Learning Skills were removed, should any new arguments calling for similar changes appear, I'd be confident that such passions would prevent the "Slippery Slope Collaspe" of EVE.

That said, in my opinion, the cons of Learning Skills outweigh the pros. Whether that holds true to the majority of the playerbase remains to be seen however, and I fully understand the opposition's concerns. I simply mean to show that such an argument isn't really valid.

Yes, but trying to misconstrue someones argument is also common in rhetoric. Smile
The point Im trying to make here is that the same logic that is being used to argue that training skills should be removed, can be used to argue that training time for skills should be shortened or even removed. Learning skills are not fundamentally different from the skill system as a whole. Acquiring skill takes time. That is the fundamental trait of the system.

This is not a slippery slope argument. For example, saying that you should not yield to terrorist demands because that will lead to more terrorism, is not a slippery slope argument even if it could be construed to be such an argument.

A slippery slope argument is more like “If you try weed you are bound to end up as heavy drug addict”

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:39:00 - [312]
 

It's definitely a slippery slope. The fallacy is avoided because the middle ground is acknowledged. You guys do know that there are other possible compromises on the learning skill situation besides the way this is currently drafted, right? This current proposal is simply a welfare bill. Free stuff for the needy.

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:43:00 - [313]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 20:46:35
Originally by: Takseen
Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 20:03:53
Originally by: Jack Icegaard

I think you are trying to deflect the point I'm trying to make here, or you just don't grasp it. To me this is not a matter of safeguarding advantages for veterans as you are insinuating with your question.

The skill-system is designed in a way that puts new players at a disadvantage compared to veterans. Therefore, saying that learning skills should be removed because they put new players at a disadvantage is not really a valid argument. Obviously, if the goal was to design a skill-system that did not put new players at a disadvantage, then training time should be removed completely.






I'm not making that argument though. I don't give a toss if veterans have 50 or 500 million more skill points than me since I'm not in direct competition with them. Its those who don't want learning skills removed that say its unfair to vets and will close the gap. I don't care, I just want the extremely strong incentive for new players to not train useful skills for their first days/weeks/months to be removed. If they rolled that time into slightly longer training time needed for other skills, it'd be a decent compromise.


Ok, well then I think we agree. I was mostly arguing against the essence in many of the arguments and requests raised in these learning skill threads. You mentioned the time aspect though.

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.07.01 22:33:00 - [314]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 23:09:45
What!! I have to train Advanced Spaceship Command to level 5 just so I can get into a carrier!? So I train a full month just so that my carrier will align to warp 0.4 seconds faster? CCP are you kidding me? Gee, that is a really fun game you have here - NOT!

If Advanced Spaceship Command lvl 5 is a prerequisite it does not add anything to the game. Everyone who want to fly a carrier must train it. Remove that skill and just bump up the agility stat for capital ships. This is a major turn off for new players who want to get into capital ships. This need to change CCP.

And learning skills also of course. Learning skills should also be removed.
/parody

edit: Ok, this was semi-trolling but i think the point being made is valid. Anyway, this will be my last input on this matter.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.02 02:16:00 - [315]
 


Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.02 02:38:00 - [316]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 20:40:42
Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 20:03:53
Originally by: Jack Icegaard

I think you are trying to deflect the point I'm trying to make here, or you just don't grasp it. To me this is not a matter of safeguarding advantages for veterans as you are insinuating with your question.

The skill-system is designed in a way that puts new players at a disadvantage compared to veterans. Therefore, saying that learning skills should be removed because they put new players at a disadvantage is not really a valid argument. Obviously, if the goal was to design a skill-system that did not put new players at a disadvantage, then training time should be removed completely.






I'm not making that argument though. I don't give a toss if veterans have 50 or 500 million more skill points than me since I'm not in direct competition with them. Its those who don't want learning skills removed that say its unfair to vets and will close the gap. I don't care, I just want the extremely strong incentive for new players to not train useful skills for their first days/weeks/months to be removed. If they rolled that time into slightly longer training time needed for other skills, it'd be a decent compromise.

Edit : And yeah, the slippery slope argument is weak.
Edit2 : And I think learning skills are sufficiently different to other skills that to justify removing them. Note the absence of any other complaints about other skill training times.


Actually, what almost all of you asking for the Learning skills to be removed have asked for is the +10 and +10% BONUSES provided by those skills for free. Several of us for the Skills staying have said that if you want to remove them, than simply take them away AND the bonus they provide. There is a big difference between asking that the skills are removed and asking for the bonus they provide for free. If all you're TRULY concerned about is new players being able to train "fun" skills without worry of Learning skills, then we don't need the bonuses. I've made this point multiple times now, and you've yet to address why it is you want the bonuses even though you want the skills removed. Once again, it's simple evidence that you simply want something for free... instead of it truly being a matter of "helping the new players enjoy the fun of the game without a stupid time sink with no benefits". After all, it's a worthless time sink with no benefits, so why should you get the bonuses they provide. I'll support the removal of the Learning skills without even a redistribution of said points invested if it meant a true removal and none of this instant gratification nonsense you lot keep spouting.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.02 03:09:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: Cash Render

Several of us for the Skills staying have said that if you want to remove them, than simply take them away AND the bonus they provide.


And most people think that doubling or even tripling training times would *NOT* be a good idea. Do you have any good reasons as to why we should want doubled or tripled training times?

Originally by: Cash Render
Once again, it's simple evidence that you simply want something for free...


And while we're at it, we really should get rid of those free remaps and accelerated training bonus, and newbie tutorials, or at least start charging for them. Us old timers didn't have them in the beginning.

Is this really about wanting something free, or is this about getting a better value for our 14.99/month?


Originally by: Cash Render
instead of it truly being a matter of "helping the new players enjoy the fun of the game without a stupid time sink with no benefits". After all, it's a worthless time sink with no benefits, so why should you get the bonuses they provide.


Eh? Have you not been paying attention? The whole problem is that it's *NOT* a worthless time sink. It's such an incredibly useful time sink that if you plan on playing the for any length of time, the most logical course of action is to spend the first month+, first remap, and all of your accelerated training time to get the learning skills up to at least 5/4.


Speakerofdead
Posted - 2010.07.02 03:37:00 - [318]
 

Edited by: Speakerofdead on 02/07/2010 04:16:28
Edited by: Speakerofdead on 02/07/2010 03:39:14
Edited by: Speakerofdead on 02/07/2010 03:38:55
You will not know how many more people hated and was driven away by the learning skill because you cannot post here without a active account. I myself deleted my character with +5 implants and speak here at the last. Training that stuff simply makes me feel silly that I am paying months for NOTHING, and I was just hijacked by the skills instead of playing because of feeling fun.

I simply want to tell CCP that learning skills absulotely screws rookie experence up and whom skills hurting is not only rookies but also you. 3 quarters of the rookies will be driven away by the freaking waiting for something does no help to gameplay and by those geek veterans who are more than happy to make the game geeker. What CCP doing is just blocking money away just for no reason.

All my friends invited quited after a few weeks,leaving a character remains capable for nothing.So stop talking about patience! they play for fun and they don't need a game to teach them how miserable and ridiculous life can be, they just chose to not to feel silly.If 90% of rookies are driven away,it is not about patience, it is about a geek system and a desigener's failure.

All innovations will annoy someone.So what? Should american keep slavery?Although some veterans threaten with quit, I am sure they will not abandon their 50m character just because they get 4.5m more for free. All they really lose is just their superiority built up IN A GAME, and that is just because others in the game are crippled. Come on , you are not really that pathetic,are you?

A fun game is a good game,not a geek one.

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.07.02 04:41:00 - [319]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 02/07/2010 05:01:35
Originally by: Speakerofdead

You will not know how many more people hated and was driven away by the learning skill because you cannot post here without a active account. I myself deleted my character with +5 implants and speak here at the last. Training that stuff simply makes me feel silly that I am paying months for NOTHING, and I was just hijacked by the skills instead of playing because of feeling fun.

I simply want to tell CCP that learning skills absulotely screws rookie experence up and whom skills hurting is not only rookies but also you...

So when exactly does the game get fun? When you have 5m SP? Or is at 10m SP? Is there a magical number where the fun suddenly begins? I thought the first month in the game was very fun. I recently took an alt with 1.8 M SP and went through an epic arc in 0.0 flying a Rifter. For me it was challenging and fun.

I don't really understand all this obsessing with learning skills. You just need to see the bigger picture, that training learning skills means a little progress in every useful skill you yet have to train. They are not fundamentally different from the skill-system as a whole. I don't say this to gloat or to try to push you down. As a veteran player I really don't have anything against you also having fun.

There are things in other games that puts me off too. For example, I just had to read a review of a certain Blizzard game to know that I never would play that game. Of course I could have gone to their forums and complain about how much their game suck and how they should change it to suit me. Point being, no game will suit everyone. Some will like it, others will not. Eve is obviously not an exception here.

Ste'ven Sch'orik
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.02 04:47:00 - [320]
 

Not supported. I say keep the learning skills. I didnt kill all that time spent training them up just to have my attributes taken away. I prefer being able to reduce my training times. I intend to take all the learning skills to level 5 and thats that. If you dont like training the learning skills then do them later once you have something interesting trained up so that you have something to do while you wait. Lazyness will get you nowhere in this game.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.02 04:52:00 - [321]
 

Edited by: Jasdemi on 02/07/2010 04:52:20
Originally by: Ste'ven Sch'orik
Not supported. I say keep the learning skills. I didnt kill all that time spent training them up just to have my attributes taken away. I prefer being able to reduce my training times. I intend to take all the learning skills to level 5 and thats that. If you dont like training the learning skills then do them later once you have something interesting trained up so that you have something to do while you wait. Lazyness will get you nowhere in this game.

1. Read the OP post
2. If you still don't get it, read again
3. GOTO2
4. GOTO2
5. GOTO2
6. GOTO2
7. You should've now realized that none wants to take your invested skill points away
8. If not, GOTO2

Lefty Twotimes
Posted - 2010.07.02 05:18:00 - [322]
 

Learning skills are nothing but an unnecessary barrier to new players committing to the game. They do not add to the game or improve anyone's play experience.

Speakerofdead
Posted - 2010.07.02 07:09:00 - [323]
 

Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 02/07/2010 05:01:35
Originally by: Speakerofdead

You will not know how many more people hated and was driven away by the learning skill because you cannot post here without a active account. I myself deleted my character with +5 implants and speak here at the last. Training that stuff simply makes me feel silly that I am paying months for NOTHING, and I was just hijacked by the skills instead of playing because of feeling fun.

I simply want to tell CCP that learning skills absulotely screws rookie experence up and whom skills hurting is not only rookies but also you...

So when exactly does the game get fun? When you have 5m SP? Or is at 10m SP? Is there a magical number where the fun suddenly begins? I thought the first month in the game was very fun. I recently took an alt with 1.8 M SP and went through an epic arc in 0.0 flying a Rifter. For me it was challenging and fun.

I don't really understand all this obsessing with learning skills. You just need to see the bigger picture, that training learning skills means a little progress in every useful skill you yet have to train. They are not fundamentally different from the skill-system as a whole. I don't say this to gloat or to try to push you down. As a veteran player I really don't have anything against you also having fun.

There are things in other games that puts me off too. For example, I just had to read a review of a certain Blizzard game to know that I never would play that game. Of course I could have gone to their forums and complain about how much their game suck and how they should change it to suit me. Point being, no game will suit everyone. Some will like it, others will not. Eve is obviously not an exception here.




I was just fed up with those "hardcore moan" against "rookie moan".--we cannot get better UI because we are hardcore,we cannot get bigger texts because we are hardcore,we have to block rookies away and have fewer players because of that ****.

Everyone brings up Rifter when talking about SP problem. Rifter may be fun to an alt character who worriies about nothing and can be alted back any time you like. But Rifters are not that fun when all you have is Rifter and cannot afford to lose it.

I had 15m character,but I fully support of removing LS because it is a fun-destoryer. operating spaceships may be fun in this game, training to make your character grow may be fun. being told that you have to train months for nothing is NOT,and that is exactly what LS tells rookies.It's not about ruining veteran advantages,it's about less unecessary geek hardcore and let more have fun.

I hope that the game take some effort to satisfy more people rather than being a "hardcore" **** full of pathetic geek.It is OK if the game was intended to be "hard" to play,but now to the rookies ,It feels more like eve is "forbidden" to play.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.02 10:59:00 - [324]
 

Edited by: Cash Render on 02/07/2010 11:00:37
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Cash Render

Several of us for the Skills staying have said that if you want to remove them, than simply take them away AND the bonus they provide.


And most people think that doubling or even tripling training times would *NOT* be a good idea. Do you have any good reasons as to why we should want doubled or tripled training times?


Actually, the easiest one to point out would be that you're against the very skills that have made you use to the current speed. If the skills never existed, you wouldn't know the difference. So I stand by the complete removal.

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Cash Render
Once again, it's simple evidence that you simply want something for free...


And while we're at it, we really should get rid of those free remaps and accelerated training bonus, and newbie tutorials, or at least start charging for them. Us old timers didn't have them in the beginning.


Actually, I would personally be all for that since I personally enjoy games that take forever and encourage long bouts of frustration.

Originally by: stoicfaux
Is this really about wanting something free, or is this about getting a better value for our 14.99/month?


If the value isn't currently already worth it, why are you paying it/ You're argument doesn't work in your favor since if the current state of the game isn't "valuable" enough to pay the $14.99 than you wouldn't be paying it.


Originally by: Cash Render
instead of it truly being a matter of "helping the new players enjoy the fun of the game without a stupid time sink with no benefits". After all, it's a worthless time sink with no benefits, so why should you get the bonuses they provide.


Eh? Have you not been paying attention? The whole problem is that it's *NOT* a worthless time sink. It's such an incredibly useful time sink that if you plan on playing the for any length of time, the most logical course of action is to spend the first month+, first remap, and all of your accelerated training time to get the learning skills up to at least 5/4.




Which once again be you asking for a skill based BONUS for free. If the skill that reduces the TOTAL amount of time it takes for EVERY skill in the game is a problematic time sink, than it's total justification that EVERY skill is a problematic time sink and should be removed because we don't want to spend the time to get the benefits.

Originally by: Lefty Twotimes
Learning skills are nothing but an unnecessary barrier to new players committing to the game. They do not add to the game or improve anyone's play experience.


So reducign the tiem ti takes to learn everything else doesn't add to the game? As for improving peoples' experiences, it makes things go FASTER. Please tell me how that isn't improving peoples' experience? Since you don't think it is, apparantly, than you probably would agree on simply removign them completely without givign everyoen the attributes bonus.

Originally by: Speakerofdead
train months for nothing


Dead wrong. You train months so that you can shave time off of your total skill plan. A good example is getting a new player into a Harpy with T2 Guns, AB, Warp Scrambler, Stasis Field, and Rigging takes 70 days according to Evemon... withotu LEarning skills. With Learning skills, it takes 54 days. I would say that it's a pretty big difference considerign that every other skill you train is likewise affected. So it's definitely not "nothing".

Originally by: Speakerofdead
it's about less unecessary geek hardcore and let more have fun.


you're calling 2 months of trainign for an entire skill tree "geek hardcore" when there are individual skills that are as long? If 2 months is "hardcore" than perhaps you shouldn't be playing since times only go up from teh start.

EDIT: Wrong word.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.02 11:20:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: Cash Render


Actually, I would personally be all for that since I personally enjoy games that take forever and encourage long bouts of frustration.




And that's why the pro learning skills crowd will never quit. As long as some people on one side think eve should be fun, and the other side thinks like Cash Render here, there's never going to be any agreement.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.02 11:27:00 - [326]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render


Actually, I would personally be all for that since I personally enjoy games that take forever and encourage long bouts of frustration.




And that's why the pro learning skills crowd will never quit. As long as some people on one side think eve should be fun, and the other side thinks like Cash Render here, there's never going to be any agreement.


You do realize that some people find being OCD about maxing thigns out to be FUN, right? Personally, I just prefer a game that frustrates me because it means that it's not a game I'll be done with in a month or two. Mind you, I think getting actual skills are fun, but getting benefits for nothing is just plain pathetic and a disgrace. It's the first step toward WoW'dom.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.02 11:33:00 - [327]
 

Originally by: Cash Render


You do realize that some people find being OCD about maxing thigns out to be FUN, right? Personally, I just prefer a game that frustrates me because it means that it's not a game I'll be done with in a month or two. Mind you, I think getting actual skills are fun, but getting benefits for nothing is just plain pathetic and a disgrace. It's the first step toward WoW'dom.


Right, which is why the whole debate is pointless since its down to personal preference as to what one enjoys in a game.

In any case, CCP have already lowered the prerequisites on skills in the past, probing, thermodynamics, cloaking etc. So its not unlikely that they'd hand out other advantages to newer players in the future. We'll have to wait and see what move the devs make.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.02 11:42:00 - [328]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render


You do realize that some people find being OCD about maxing thigns out to be FUN, right? Personally, I just prefer a game that frustrates me because it means that it's not a game I'll be done with in a month or two. Mind you, I think getting actual skills are fun, but getting benefits for nothing is just plain pathetic and a disgrace. It's the first step toward WoW'dom.


Right, which is why the whole debate is pointless since its down to personal preference as to what one enjoys in a game.

In any case, CCP have already lowered the prerequisites on skills in the past, probing, thermodynamics, cloaking etc. So its not unlikely that they'd hand out other advantages to newer players in the future. We'll have to wait and see what move the devs make.


Debates are never pointless as long as they don't turn into a bunch of insults, slander, and childishness. A good debate is always a healthy thing and gives everyoen a chance to see/hear/read both sides of an argument.

And waiting for the Devs to decide is the only thing any of us can actually do abotu the subject, but doesn't change that we can discuss what we think is best. Important thing is to keep it from becominc personal attacks.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.02 11:57:00 - [329]
 

Originally by: Cash Render


And waiting for the Devs to decide is the only thing any of us can actually do abotu the subject, but doesn't change that we can discuss what we think is best.


Yeah. The thing is, we're debating whether learning skills are a good thing for new players. And since obviously those who were so put off by them that they stopped playing aren't here to present their views, only the dev team and their customer survey team knows how many of them there are.

Plus even if they see that more players are put off by them, they might decide they prefer it that way. Wouldn't be the first time they've sidelined players' opinions on things.


Corina Jarr
Posted - 2010.07.02 13:57:00 - [330]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render


And waiting for the Devs to decide is the only thing any of us can actually do abotu the subject, but doesn't change that we can discuss what we think is best.


Yeah. The thing is, we're debating whether learning skills are a good thing for new players. And since obviously those who were so put off by them that they stopped playing aren't here to present their views, only the dev team and their customer survey team knows how many of them there are.


Are you ignoring the multiple new players who posted that they appreciated the learning skills as something to slow them down so they could get perspective on this huge new world?

And as I've said many times, anyone who sits in the station while training learning skills needs to find another game, cause they won't survive well in EVE. While training those skills, you can do some of the career missions, you can learn how boring mining is (or enjoyable, if you like that sort of thing), you can learn to steel cans from noob minors (not condoning of courseWink), you can even venture into low sec... in fact its best to go into low sec early, so you don't risk implants and it will take a while to get the close-to-risk-free jump clones.


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