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blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
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David88x77
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.30 15:45:00 - [271]
 

100% support this.

When friends start the game it is pretty lame to tell them that "oh, you have to train these skills first"

They want to be able to fly around a ship asap with you and whatnot ... not just sit in station for 2 months.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.06.30 15:53:00 - [272]
 

Totally support this idea.

Ray Banner
Posted - 2010.06.30 16:44:00 - [273]
 

No one should have to choose between spending a month doing nothing or having a crippled character.

Aimy Louis
Posted - 2010.06.30 16:55:00 - [274]
 


413X4ND3R
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:32:00 - [275]
 

Edited by: 413X4ND3R on 30/06/2010 17:32:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWW1vpz1ybo

See many of the ginger kind here...

Not supported, if CCP is goin to change learnings, I wish they remove learningskills in total, without adding any attributes or boosts, and without restoring skillpoints.

"Wow, 100k SP, thx... *nom nom nom* MOOOAAARRR"

Anyways, thx for comming up with an possible solution, but it's just not the right way to go. In my opinion...

Rer Eirikr
Gallente
Clearly Compensating
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:19:00 - [276]
 

Edited by: Rer Eirikr on 30/06/2010 21:20:46
This is coming straight from a noob, I'll make that clear. Wink

I can respect the veteran's and hardcore's desires to keep a mechanic that they themselves had to endure in the game, and yes, it does add another level of tough decision making for the player to consider (or in other words, added depth to becoming stronger).

However, I think everyone can agree that sitting around for a month (or staggering learning skills with necessary components to enjoy EVE, over the course of numerous months) just isn't fun. From a purely business and logical perspective, giving noobs a month-long timesink and saying "do it or suffer not being efficient for the rest of your EVE career" doesn't make sense. Honestly, I quit EVE a few months ago (Note: I'm back and enjoying myself obviously) simply because I was bored being stuck with my noob ships/skills while training up Learning Skills.

I love the rugged individualism and hardcore aspects of EVE, because it does make everything have that added sense of 'worth and value', but that doesn't compensate for being bored for a whole month and (statistically speaking) quitting the game sheerly because of that hurdle.

When you think about it, removing Learning Skills is a Win-Win. Noobs can focus on having fun and learning skills that they deem worthy spending time on, Griefers and PvPers will have new fodder to decimate (and subsequently drink from the Tankard of Tears) and CCP gets more money.

So just refund the SPs everyone has spent on them, and let all of the past players rejoice in knowing that they had a bonus-learning curve longer than anyone else.

But like I said, I'm just a noob. Wink

Viral Effect
Caldari
BRAINDEAD Corp
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:51:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Rer Eirikr
When you think about it, removing Learning Skills is a Win-Win. Noobs can focus on having fun and learning skills that they deem worthy spending time on, Griefers and PvPers will have new fodder to decimate (and subsequently drink from the Tankard of Tears) and CCP gets more money.
So just refund the SPs everyone has spent on them, and let all of the past players rejoice in knowing that they had a bonus-learning curve longer than anyone else.



No. Removing learning skills is definitely not a win-win scenario. CCP themselves acknowledged the obvious truth that it will anger allot of people. CCP said that one day they might pick the option that would anger the least amount of people. As far as I am concerned the method that has been suggested that would probably anger the least amount of people would be to give everyone the learning skills and use the new sp allocation system we now have to give a sp re-numeration to the players that have already trained them.

Rer Eirikr
Gallente
Clearly Compensating
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:07:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Viral Effect
No. Removing learning skills is definitely not a win-win scenario. CCP themselves acknowledged the obvious truth that it will anger allot of people. CCP said that one day they might pick the option that would anger the least amount of people. As far as I am concerned the method that has been suggested that would probably anger the least amount of people would be to give everyone the learning skills and use the new sp allocation system we now have to give a sp re-numeration to the players that have already trained them.



Do you really think veterans of EVE would ragequit the game because suddenly the tedious month's worth of Learning Skills are gone and no-one has to deal with them anymore? Somehow I doubt that, whereas noobs will, and currently are, leaving because of them. And yes, I agree, issue a full refund and give everyone the equivalent of what maxed Learning Skills would give.

Viral Effect
Caldari
BRAINDEAD Corp
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:35:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Rer Eirikr
Do you really think veterans of EVE would ragequit the game because suddenly the tedious month's worth of Learning Skills are gone and no-one has to deal with them anymore? Somehow I doubt that,


Is this your justification? You don’t think they will go as far as quit? Just get up and run around smashing things up but carry on paying their subscription perhaps? Do presume to think that they would see them as tedious?

Originally by: Rer Eirikr
whereas noobs will, and currently are, leaving because of them.


I have never talked to anyone in game that has been discouraged by learning skills. In my experience new players stay playing the game because of them.

Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
Posted - 2010.07.01 02:03:00 - [280]
 

Edited by: Jin Nib on 01/07/2010 02:03:33
Originally by: Viral Effect

I have never talked to anyone in game that has been discouraged by learning skills. In my experience new players stay playing the game because of them.

ConfusedAre you trolling? It's really hard to tell.

sirgath
Posted - 2010.07.01 03:41:00 - [281]
 

Edited by: sirgath on 01/07/2010 23:57:28
Supported.

Xordel
Pilipino Corp
Posted - 2010.07.01 05:29:00 - [282]
 


Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.01 07:03:00 - [283]
 

I do not support this.

I don't necessarily disagree with removing them. I disagree with automatically giving everyone a free +10 attributes. If you think the skills were a mistake to add from the start that's fine, but I don't see anyone who dislikes the faster training. I posted this in another thread on the matter but it seems like people just want to have their cake and eat it too.

(This proposal would actually be a buff for me also since I have only trained 5/4 on both of my accounts.)

Admiral Chrom
Posted - 2010.07.01 08:49:00 - [284]
 

Edited by: Admiral Chrom on 01/07/2010 08:49:51
Edited by: Admiral Chrom on 01/07/2010 08:49:16
/sign
Great idea! Totally support this.

REMOVE THE LEARNING SKILLS!

Makumba Aki
Posted - 2010.07.01 09:43:00 - [285]
 

the first step in the wrong direction


against it

Myth Al'kar
ASCENTIS CORPORATION
Free Worlds Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.01 09:46:00 - [286]
 

I support removal of learning skills. They are not fun.
Plus I can imagine the shiny new skill I'd buy as a reward for training them.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.07.01 10:00:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Solution looking for a problem.

Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.

Not supported.

This.

Also, the proposal is a massive buff to alts, which I wouldn't support either.

Finally, the "annoyance" with the learning skill helps keeping the impatient and instant gratification crowd away from eve.

I'd find it much more interesting to remove attribute implants and boost all attributes by +5 to compensate. But that wasn't the proposal, so...

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:41:00 - [288]
 

Originally by: Aineko Macx


Finally, the "annoyance" with the learning skill helps keeping the impatient and instant gratification crowd away from eve.




There's just so much wrong with that statement I don't even know where to start.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:07:00 - [289]
 

First off, apparantly alot of people have very poor hearing comprehension. Sicne when does "We think introducing them was a mistake, but we DON'T want to simply remove them because that'll make alot of people angry" translate to this ridiculous claim of "CCP has already said tehy are definitely removing them" ? Seriously, those two statements are NOTHING alike.

Secondly, since the learning skills supposedly add NOTHING to the game, than IF CCP does remove them, it should simply be removal. No SP reallocation for those of us that have them, no +10 and +10%... just a flat out removed.

Thirdly, The proposed plan isn't a cover all for everyone's pain from this. Only the vets with 3 or more years of having the Learnign Skills have gotten the payout from learnign them. Those who haven't been playing that time with them will get royally screwed by everyone startign with them now. Afterall, they had to spend the unaccelerated time to train them up to that level.

Personally, I don't care if they stay or not... but if they go it shouldn't be a free for all +attributes because people are lazy. It should be simply "you don't like them? Fine, they're goen along with the do nothing for the game trainign bonus they provided."

-Cash

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:18:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: Cash Render


Personally, I don't care if they stay or not... but if they go it shouldn't be a free for all +attributes because people are lazy.

-Cash


What does laziness have to do with training skills in Eve? You think you're making a big effort by clicking and dragging those boxes into the training queue? There's no work, there's no effort. In the case of learning skills there isn't even any interesting decisions apart from when would be the least annoying time to train them. There is only time.

You are not a special snowflake because you paused your character's ability progression at one point in time to gradually increase it later. *Everyone* has to do this. The only variant is how far they go between 4/3 and 5/5.

nStedt
X Gate Industris
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:22:00 - [291]
 

Whatever removes those stupids skills is fine with me.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:25:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Aineko Macx

Finally, the "annoyance" with the learning skill helps keeping the impatient and instant gratification crowd away from eve.


There's just so much wrong with that statement I don't even know where to start.

You wouldn't know sarcasm when you saw it, right?
Anyway, I profit from the impatient crowd, so fine by me ;)

Still not supported tho, previous arguments still stand.

Rhauh
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:29:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: Viral Effect
Originally by: Rer Eirikr
When you think about it, removing Learning Skills is a Win-Win. Noobs can focus on having fun and learning skills that they deem worthy spending time on, Griefers and PvPers will have new fodder to decimate (and subsequently drink from the Tankard of Tears) and CCP gets more money.
So just refund the SPs everyone has spent on them, and let all of the past players rejoice in knowing that they had a bonus-learning curve longer than anyone else.



No. Removing learning skills is definitely not a win-win scenario. CCP themselves acknowledged the obvious truth that it will anger allot of people. CCP said that one day they might pick the option that would anger the least amount of people. As far as I am concerned the method that has been suggested that would probably anger the least amount of people would be to give everyone the learning skills and use the new sp allocation system we now have to give a sp re-numeration to the players that have already trained them.



The only people who would cry are the ones who will cry no matter what CCP does or does not do.

If you only make decisions based on what everyone will like you would never make decisions.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:31:00 - [294]
 

Edited by: Cash Render on 01/07/2010 12:34:23
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render


Personally, I don't care if they stay or not... but if they go it shouldn't be a free for all +attributes because people are lazy.

-Cash


What does laziness have to do with training skills in Eve? You think you're making a big effort by clicking and dragging those boxes into the training queue? There's no work, there's no effort. In the case of learning skills there isn't even any interesting decisions apart from when would be the least annoying time to train them. There is only time.

You are not a special snowflake because you paused your character's ability progression at one point in time to gradually increase it later. *Everyone* has to do this. The only variant is how far they go between 4/3 and 5/5.


To start with, you're considering that laziness can only take a form of physical action, which is incorrect. The fact that you want a bonus because that's what you have defined in your head as the "standard" for absolutely nothing is sheer laziness. The fact is, the standard is the baseline stats you start with, hence why learning skills provide a BONUS (do I need to link the definition of bonus to help you understand that point?).

Secondly, I have a mining alt that only has 2 learning skills at 4/3 and the rest at like basic 2 or 3. And he's in a Hulk. SO I'm sorry, but your point is defeated right there. So guess what, they are OPTIONAL as proven by such case. Any more attempts at such a paultry arguement to getting a bonus because these skills are supposedly mandatory?

EDIT: correcting abyssmal spelling and incorrect sue of you're.

TheBlueMonkey
Gallente
Fags R Us
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:35:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium
I do not support this.

I don't necessarily disagree with removing them. I disagree with automatically giving everyone a free +10 attributes. If you think the skills were a mistake to add from the start that's fine, but I don't see anyone who dislikes the faster training. I posted this in another thread on the matter but it seems like people just want to have their cake and eat it too.

(This proposal would actually be a buff for me also since I have only trained 5/4 on both of my accounts.)


This is my main issue with people wanting the training skills removed.
It's
"I want the training skills removed and everyone given +10 to each attribute"
which to me reads
"I cba to train the skills so gimme free stuff"

If you cba to learn them then don't, if you think they're worth the time then learn them.

If CCP do remove them I think the best way would be to remove them, drop everyone back to basic attributes and release a load more implants with the best being a +15.
That way we're back on track with the
"I think it's worth my time to spend xbillion on implants so I have 25 in what ever attraibute"

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:45:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: Cash Render


To start with, you're considering that laziness can only take a form of physical action, which is incorrect. The fact that you want a bonus because that's what you have defined in your head as the "standard" for absolutely nothing is sheer laziness. The fact is, the standard is the baseline stats you start with, hence why learning skills provide a BONUS (do I need to link the definition of bonus to help you understand that point?).

Secondly, I have a mining alt that only has 2 learning skills at 4/3 and the rest at like basic 2 or 3. And he's in a Hulk. SO I'm sorry, but your point is defeated right there. So guess what, they are OPTIONAL as proven by such case. Any more attempts at such a paultry arguement to getting a bonus because these skills are supposedly mandatory?




Yes because alts are oh so relevant to this discussion here. Getting a new char in a hulk is 50 days training, of course you're not going to put more learning skills into it if that's as far as you plan to go. Guess what? Most new players a) don't know exactly what they're going to do b) don't plan to stop training skills after 50 days. Incidentally, you'd have been better off going 4/3 in everything except Charisma even if you wanted Hulk I and nothing else.

Again, training of skills requires minimal physical OR mental effort. They just require time.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:49:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render


To start with, you're considering that laziness can only take a form of physical action, which is incorrect. The fact that you want a bonus because that's what you have defined in your head as the "standard" for absolutely nothing is sheer laziness. The fact is, the standard is the baseline stats you start with, hence why learning skills provide a BONUS (do I need to link the definition of bonus to help you understand that point?).

Secondly, I have a mining alt that only has 2 learning skills at 4/3 and the rest at like basic 2 or 3. And he's in a Hulk. SO I'm sorry, but your point is defeated right there. So guess what, they are OPTIONAL as proven by such case. Any more attempts at such a paultry arguement to getting a bonus because these skills are supposedly mandatory?




Yes because alts are oh so relevant to this discussion here. Getting a new char in a hulk is 50 days training, of course you're not going to put more learning skills into it if that's as far as you plan to go. Guess what? Most new players a) don't know exactly what they're going to do b) don't plan to stop training skills after 50 days. Incidentally, you'd have been better off going 4/3 in everything except Charisma even if you wanted Hulk I and nothing else.

Again, training of skills requires minimal physical OR mental effort. They just require time.


That's funny, because the next thign on his list of things to get is to pilot a Jump Freighter... yet I'm not wasting time with the learnign skills I should have to be "effecient".

ANd considering tiem is the most precious commodity of all, I'd say that's quiet a valuable thing to spend.

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.07.01 13:15:00 - [298]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 01/07/2010 16:55:00
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Cash Render


Personally, I don't care if they stay or not... but if they go it shouldn't be a free for all +attributes because people are lazy.

-Cash


What does laziness have to do with training skills in Eve? You think you're making a big effort by clicking and dragging those boxes into the training queue? There's no work, there's no effort. In the case of learning skills there isn't even any interesting decisions apart from when would be the least annoying time to train them. There is only time.

You are not a special snowflake because you paused your character's ability progression at one point in time to gradually increase it later. *Everyone* has to do this. The only variant is how far they go between 4/3 and 5/5.

But you do realize that the whole skill-system is about time, right? It takes time to get skills in EvE. How the skill system were implemented wasn't given by some divine intervention. I could have been set up in many different ways. For example you could buy the skill and plug it in and immediately have the skill (Matrix style, no training time). Or you could have the double training rate compared to now, or just half of it.

As a new player, what I did and many with me, was that we acknowledged the system for what it was and accepted it as a fundamental premise for the game. Not necessarily because we thought it was the best conceivable system one could come up with. But it was the same for everyone and that means parity which imo is important in any competitive game.

It takes time to get skills in EvE and learning skills are an integral part of this system. Asking for them to be removed is to be asking for a shortcut. It is to say that you should not have to play the game at the same premise as players who came before you. It should not take you three years to get to the point, skill wise, as those before you had to wait three years to achieve.

CCP could take away learning skills and then add the time they take to train to the the rest of the skills by adjusting individual training rate. Then people could train “fun” skills all the time and did not have to deal with the boring learning skills. Wouldn't that be the most fair system? Why are you guys not suggesting that?

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.01 13:34:00 - [299]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 13:37:00
Edited by: Takseen on 01/07/2010 13:34:14
Originally by: Jack Icegaard



It takes time to get skills in EvE and learning skills are an integral part of this system. Asking for them to be removed is to be asking for a short cut. It is to say that you should not have to play the game at the same premise as players who came before you. It should not take you three years to get to the point, skill wise, that those before you had to wait three years to achieve.

CCP could take away learning skills and then add the time they take to train to the the rest of the skills by adjusting individual training rate. Then people could train “fun” skills all the time and did not have to deal with the boring learning skills. Wouldn't that be the most fair system? Why are you guys not suggesting that?



But that's just it. Learning skills *aren't* an integral part of the game. You could strip them out and the rest of the game would chug along merrily without even noticing. Though of course everyone would be training more slowly if you didn't increase the base attributes to balance it out. Its an unnecessary addon to a very intricate well designed skill system.

Would new players have it easier then veterans with learning skills gone. Not really, since the vets are already ahead in every measurable way. More knowledge, more connections, more skillpoints, more ISK, so there's no reason they should feel threatened or aggrieved by a chance there. New players just get to feel more useful a bit earlier, no big deal. The rest of the skill system still provides a good pacing mechanism to stop them hopping into battleships in week 2.

As to your final paragraph and suggestion for increasing skills to balance the time saved by getting instant +10s. Sure, I'd go along with that. I don't especially need or want faster training times, I'm over the hump so to speak already. And whenever I do hit a rut and need to wait for a skill to finish training, I just go play another game in the meantime.

Edit : Or I spam the Eve forums, as the case may be.





Makumba Aki
Posted - 2010.07.01 13:44:00 - [300]
 

It is annoying to train up learnings. So please remove them.

Waht comes as next?

It is annoying to train BS from IV to V, make it go much quicker.

Newbies want to fly capitals a week after they have started, make the training go quicker and give them 10 bil isk.

Introduce joystick-control to eve.

Make eve X-Box compatible.

No! No! No! It is just the wrong way to go!
Much better would it be to give the newbies 1,5m SP for their disposal. So the still would need to decide whether they invest them in learnings or in spaceship command to fly big shiny ships right now.


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