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Sade Onyx
Posted - 2010.05.20 13:55:00 - [61]
 

I'm all up for a bit of balancing.

Courier missions were always a bit..er.. unbalanced.

But I fear this will be a bad thing for people running Sisters of Eve agents :(

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2010.05.20 14:31:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/05/2010 17:15:30
Originally by: Dev Blog

· Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad; players of all factions should have access to similar resources. Balanced missions among factions also help to spread out EVE's population, which is good for the server and desirable for our population.



So how do you explain the massive disparity in Minmatar/Gallente vs Amarr/Caldari LP stores - most obviously with Minmatar vs Amarr. Domination/Republic Fleet items is for the most part inferior to T2 while Caldari/Amarr are superior. Additionally, Amarr and Caldari have (far far far) better agent qualities than Minmatar, and usually in lower sec systems. This situation is so bad that you have to travel ~20 jumps between "high quality" Minmatar agents (read Q16/17 in 0.4/0.7) and Caldari/Amarr have up to FIVE Q20 combat agents in the same station in a 0.1. In case you aren't aware, this means that people running missions for Amarr have much better mission selection, much less travel time, much better LP generation, a much better LP store, and more useful and profitable items.

Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad.

-Liang

Ed: Hahaha hi Arkady - good to see another Minmatar loyalist out here stirring the pot. o7



THAT! Whole heartly and midely agree!

Seems another time CCP has people deciding on changes, but that do not know anything how the things WORK in game.


That is just another "target painter on dreads " idea.

CCP Jasonitas

Posted - 2010.05.20 15:06:00 - [63]
 

The focus for this change was on courier missions, which was one aspect of the mission system that we could balance in the time we had. We took a good hard look at all the data available to us and found that courier missions were not balanced with each other as a whole. I would have loved for us to look at other aspects of missions and try to rebalance them, but there's only so much we can do per release.

But that doesn't mean we won't keep this analysis up. This is only a first step. There's plenty more that we can do and will do.

Why Meeeeeh
Posted - 2010.05.20 16:17:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: CCP Jasonitas
The focus for this change was on courier missions, which was one aspect of the mission system that we could balance in the time we had. We took a good hard look at all the data available to us and found that courier missions were not balanced with each other as a whole. I would have loved for us to look at other aspects of missions and try to rebalance them, but there's only so much we can do per release.

But that doesn't mean we won't keep this analysis up. This is only a first step. There's plenty more that we can do and will do.


If you want to balance things, DON'T F'ING DO SO BY UNBALANCING OTHER STUFF. Do it in one go, don't screw a group over (again) with the promise of balancing things soon (tm). A promise which, given CCP's trackrecord, amounts to "when hell freezes over".

Though, after the proven idiocy with the "new and shiny" untested storylines for Gallente, it really comes as no surprise that some of the issues in this dev blog seem to have been adressed by someone with 1 too many chromosomes.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.20 16:22:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/05/2010 16:25:32
Originally by: CCP Jasonitas
The focus for this change was on courier missions, which was one aspect of the mission system that we could balance in the time we had. We took a good hard look at all the data available to us and found that courier missions were not balanced with each other as a whole. I would have loved for us to look at other aspects of missions and try to rebalance them, but there's only so much we can do per release.

But that doesn't mean we won't keep this analysis up. This is only a first step. There's plenty more that we can do and will do.



Does this mean that you are aware of (and have put these items in some sort of queue for either your team to work on or for another team):
- The disparity of item quality in Gallente/Minmatar vs Caldari/Amarr LP stores
- The disparity in agent quality for Gallente/Minmatar vs Caldari/Amarr
- The disparity in agent location for Gallente/Minmatar vs Caldari/Amarr
- The disparity in agent type (courier vs combat vs mining) for R&D corps (this is really what causes your courier problem, and IMO I would appreciate more combat agents for R&D corps...).
- The massive disparity in LP values from the various types of corps (Civil/Military/Manufacturing)

And most importantly, that all of these things combine to make running for Caldari/Amarr to be a much more profitable and useful experience.

-Liang

Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2010.05.20 16:32:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: CCP Jasonitas
But that doesn't mean we won't keep this analysis up. This is only a first step. There's plenty more that we can do and will do.



It's like deja vu all over again. Sad

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.05.20 17:33:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Serpents smile on 20/05/2010 17:35:32
Originally by: Casiella Truza
Originally by: CCP Jasonitas
But that doesn't mean we won't keep this analysis up. This is only a first step. There's plenty more that we can do and will do.



It's like deja vu all over again. Sad


FFS stop what you are doing now! ugh

There is NOTHING wrong! with one faction having a bit too much of this in opposite of another faction! its not like people are stuck in their character/ faction/ space.
THEY CAN MOVE IF THEY DESIRE SO!

But, ok whatever, make it a one unity pie, see what happens then.ugh

Wow in space for god sake, someone tell me what they are smoking at ccp.

Elaron
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.05.20 17:49:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: CCP Jasonitas
But that doesn't mean we won't keep this analysis up. This is only a first step. There's plenty more that we can do and will do.

Based on previous experience with balancing promises, there's a good chance that your team will be broken up and repurposed when it comes time to work on the next set of features, leaving this project in the cold.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.05.20 19:13:00 - [69]
 

geez, people, knock it off. why do you have to be all or nothing? they can't fix seven years in one change.

Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2010.05.20 19:37:00 - [70]
 

I've been testing both caldari and gallente level 4 courier missions this morning.

The caldari missions seem pretty much the same except for some beefed up volumes (5000-7200 m3) and typically 2-3 jump minimum to 7+ jumps one way.

The gallente missions have been "fixed" by making them one way missions, larger volumes (3200-7200 m3) with similar jumps to the caldari missions.

The are balanced in terms of the equivalence and horrible rewards.

Overall doing caldari missions will take longer on average. You would expect to complete around 4-5 missions per hour doing warp to zero. Whereas previously you might average around 6-12 missions per hour. The caldari missions were only worth doing for standings and storylines but that is no longer the case.

I would call this a courier mission nerf for gallente/minmatar and further punishment for caldari/amarr.

What is needed for the level 4 couriers is an increase in rewards to be equivalent to the punishment of flying the missions. The missions give around 600-775 lp (depending on sec status the higher being in 0.53) with level 4 social skills, and about 260k isk. So an hours mission running would give you 2400 to 3000 lp and 1m isk.

The above rate is for a courier mission fitted and rigged blockade runner. How is the above even a level 4 mission reward? Where are the interesting courier missions?

Caphelo
Posted - 2010.05.20 20:08:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Jagga Spikes
geez, people, knock it off. why do you have to be all or nothing? they can't fix seven years in one change.


Because they'll never come back and do the rest.

Quesa
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.05.20 21:05:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Quesa on 20/05/2010 21:06:28
This doesn't even come close to tackling the many more problems and inconsistencies in missions around New Eden.

More specifically, 0.0 Pirate missions generally give less quality gear than Empire missions. An example of this would be ammo. There is also a lack of items you can purchase from Pirate LP stores vs. Empire LP stores. None of this reflects any perceived risk vs. reward format.

There are no level 5 missions for Pirate factions.

Pirate missions are generally the same, in terms of ISK making, which also doesn't conform the the perceived risk vs. reward format of the game.

Players who run Pirate missions do so at the extreme detriment of distancing themselves from Empire NPC factions and even making themselves a 'shoot on sight' pilot.

Any mission in low-sec should give increased reward determined by how many jumps or AU they are from a .5 or higher system. The reverse should also be true, each mission done in empire should give less reward determined by how many jumps or AU they are from a 1.0 system.

Also, if your task is to balance missions and rewards, take a look at the differences in the mods between factions. You have Fed Navy ENAM's having less bonuses than the Imperial Navy but the same fitting requirement (and I think the same general cost).

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.05.20 22:52:00 - [73]
 

LP stores need a serious revamp in what they offer and what it takes to get items. Making it so you have to have a bunch of tags to get items even when you don't even get missions that drop those faction tags is stupid. LP stores should only take LP and ISK and a T1 item(if its an item thing). Tags should be used to buy FW store items.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.05.21 02:53:00 - [74]
 

I have been running dozens of courier missions with Duvolle labs through Freder Aernelaert and Afria Edmiette specifically because Duvolle do not offer anything else besides courier missions at the level I was looking for in hisec. Freder and Afria are "Production" agents, as such they offer mostly courier missions (including the farcical courier mission of 1m3 of frozen food to feed a station of starving people).

Now switch over to Carthum Conglomerate, for example, and have a look at Asrios. There you find a large collection of Carthum Conglomerate agents of all levels with a Storyline agent next door in Shemah. Most of the Carthum agents in Asrios are Manufacturing, a division which offers a much higher ratio of combat missions than Production. There are other Amarr Empire agents in the system which offer combat missions as the rule (Ministry of War, etc).

So right there, the main reason so many people run courier missions for Gallente versus Amarr is simply the fact that courier missions is all they can run for Duvolle Labs. Sure, you could go to Carirgnottin and run missions for Creodron, getting your storylines from Duvolle Labs in the same system - the catch is that Creodron don't offer anything of value, they have no R&D agents handling Mechanical Engineering, Quantum Physics, Hydromagnetic Physics, etc. Check the Profitability of R&D Agents to see which corporations people will be building standings with. The mix of Duvolle (Ainaille) + Federal Navy (Vylade) was beneficial for me since the trade hub nearest Ainaille is the Federal Navy station in Dodixie.

I don't dispute that making level 4 courier missions harder than level 1 courier missions is a Good Thing™. Just don't fall into thinking that people are running more Gallente courier missions because they're "better". That's like suggesting people in Soviet-era Russia only drove Ladas because Ladas were better than BMWs. They drove Ladas because that's all they had.

To get standings up to the required 6.8 to work with Sitaleere Beene, I had to run countless low-paying, low-standings courier missions for Duvolle (or similar numbers of missions with Creodron to get storylines from Duvolle in Carirgnottin).

To get standings to the required 6.8 with Carthum Conglomerate (Asrios/Shemah) or Ishukone (Penirgman, Altrinur), I will run a fraction of the number of missions, because each of the regular missions has better standings rewards and the storyline missions are available for an agent of that corporation (in the same system or right next door, to boot).

My assertion is that Gallente courier missions are run as often as they are due to necessity. Adjusting the difficulty of the missions won't have the impact on your metrics that you think it will (the number of Gallente courier missions will drop in inverse proportion to the rise in standings gains from each mission).

The number of Gallente courier missions will be adjusted much more significantly if you were to add a Duvolle Labs storyline agent in Ainaille (the number of Gallente courier missions will drop by an order of magnitude), or a highsec Duvolle combat agent anywhere (Carirgnottin would be ideal, wink wink).

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.21 06:00:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Quesa

More specifically, 0.0 Pirate missions generally give less quality gear than Empire missions. An example of this would be ammo. There is also a lack of items you can purchase from Pirate LP stores vs. Empire LP stores. None of this reflects any perceived risk vs. reward format.



While I totally agree that this change will wreak havoc with the pirate non combat missions in 0.0 (and pirate factions have a lot of non combat agents) I have some problem seeing where "Pirate missions generally give less quality gear than Empire missions" cam from.

Maybe from some misplaced idea on the quantity of "quality gear" dropped in empire missions.

If you have some hard data, pleas share them. In my experience pirate mission drop approximately the same quality of gear than empire missions.

For the LP store, while you maybe have less interesting low key items, I think that the pirate ship make it up nicely.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2010.05.21 09:18:00 - [76]
 

Problem 1: There is only one ship size for industrials = huge problem.

We need more ship classes for industrials which cost more and can haul more. Current iteron V for example should be comparable to battleship hull while tier 1 equivalents should be frigate or destroyer hulls with less cargo space.

Problem 2: Fitting industrials and courier mission loot. It's pathetic you only need meta level 1 stuff to fit them unless you want to be perfectionist and/or have too much isk. Even if there was t2 fitting it's not really that valuable nowadays. Courier mission items should also have some reasonable value with collateral. I just don't know how long it will take people to realize. :P

Those updates might help a bit but I wonder a lot why use LEVEL 2 graph? When it's level 4 where you aim. No one will be running anything below level 4 for long. Also differences between races are not so much about missions but regions just look how much people live in aridia or khanid etc... There's only like few mission farmers living in khanid low sec mostly. While everyone and their dad has mission alt in caldari space. Also certain regions just have better routes for running couriers.

Also courier missions are boring.




Taonix
Posted - 2010.05.21 09:49:00 - [77]
 

'PI commodities have also been removed from all encounter missions.'
This line intriuges me, is this all npc tradable goods or only ones used to manufacture stuff in PI? i.e. does this cover 'top level' items as well? The reason i am asking is some of use make money in trading these items ;)

StarRanger
Gallente
Royal Star Ranger Family
Posted - 2010.05.21 10:02:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: RedClaws
Edited by: RedClaws on 19/05/2010 13:57:56
For example : lvl 2 would require an expanded cruiser or multiple frigate trips and lvl 4 would require an orca or freighter or multiple trips in a fully maxed out T2 industrial?

Sure each mission would take longer but rewards could be adjusted to match.


I see a great idea here, ccp! Cool

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.05.21 11:02:00 - [79]
 

One more thought....

If you're writing, say, a massively multiplayer online game and you have two very similar activities called a and b. You look them over and figure that:

a) 75% of players do this one.
b) 25% of players do this one.

You can look at that in several ways. First of all you might check to see if a or b is broken in some way. Assuming that they're both working correctly you can then consider adjusting the 'balance' between them.

Now, clearly, the players seem to like doing a more than b. So you can change b to be like a so that the players will like b more or you can make players dislike both of them.

Hmm...

The Optician
Pathfinder Enterprise
Posted - 2010.05.21 14:04:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: The Optician on 21/05/2010 14:05:14
Rolling Eyes

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.21 16:41:00 - [81]
 

Dear CCP I would like to get an information about this change:

1) The "Mineral Acquisition Objectives" and "The Special Delivery" given out by the R&D agents are courier missions?
2) Are included in your "Currier mission" pie?
3) Have been changed?

I suppose the reply to 1) is Yes for "The Special Delivery".

If 2) is true for "The Special Delivery" you have registered the guys running missions for Boundless Creations for some of the best Mechanical Engineering Datacore agents in game.

I hope you had the foresight to remove the R&D missions before doing your statistical analysis.







Scoto Timta
EveMerc's
Posted - 2010.05.21 18:43:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
My opinion is that people run more Gal/min courier mission because they don't have high quality, combat agents in nearby systems...

As the player can refuse only 1 mission every 4 hours without losing standing and that kind of agent give a substantial but not unreasonable quantity of non combat missions the player will accept them, keeping the refusal for the really unwanted missions, and complete them as fast as possible.


Hammer meets nail squarely on the head. And one of the main "really unwanted" mission types are the combat missions against Caldari/Amarr that will wreck my standing with Caldari, thus impeding my ability to go to Jita. If a Caldari pilot gets bad standing with Gallente, he loses access to decent trade hubs like Oursulaert and Dodixie. A potential annoyance, sure, but not like losing access to Jita. I run missions for all 4 factions at times, but mostly Gallente. Missions for Cal/Amarr are mainly to keep standings from dropping too far below 0. I will sometimes accept a mission vs Gal/Min in order to keep going (4 hour timer thing), so I can refuse a poor courier mish in hopes of a better draw. But when running for Gal/Min agents, I refuse all missions vs Cal/Amarr so that I don't have to run a bunch of extra missions to rescue standings. Thus, I accept couriers from them unless they are *really* bad.

Mara's point about Duvolle is also a bullseye. Been there, still doing that.

This seems to be a classic case of someone looking at a statistic and jumping to a hasty conclusion with no real thought and analysis. Nice job, CCP.

I SoStoned
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.21 21:37:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: I SoStoned on 21/05/2010 21:37:53
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Why is this a problem?

· Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad; players of all factions should have access to similar resources. Balanced missions among factions also help to spread out EVE's population, which is good for the server and desirable for our population.



Okay, yes, Players have been screaming this for years... and yet Caldari have a 40% or higher quantity of L4 agents compared to Amarr (despite Amarr sov being twice as large on the map), Gallente, or Minmatar.
Caldari have more Lv4 agents clustered together in the same highsec system, one with no missions sent into lowsec, whereas Amarr have few/no clustered L4 agents, and those for the Minmatar are clustered with lowsec on three of four gates ... of not stuck entirely in lowsec.


So... you fix *courier* missions? These are all run by macros anyway (at least it seems) as they're mind numbingly useless except for standings grind and storyline missions that actually accomplish something (whereas all combat mission runners get a courier mission storyline EVERY SINGLE DAMN TIME).

Courier missions... why???

AMARR want more L4 agents. Minmatar want L4 agent clusters safely tucked away from lowsec. I don't care about Gallente, but I assume they want the same.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.05.22 00:23:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Typhado3 on 22/05/2010 03:13:56

Ok it has to be said that this is a step in the right direction and fixing missions is always a good thing.

However the problem is there are many things wrong with missions currently and these 2 problems sort of acted as a work around/counter balance to a couple of the other broken parts of missions. While these changes do fix some of the problems with missions the new mission system will be more unbalanced than before by fixing these without fixing the other problems.

While you may say these other problems will get fixed 'soon' the game is worse off than it was before until then. There is also the fact that we havn't seen a good commitment to the problem of race agent/LP imbalance after the last blog where you further exaspirated the problem by adding mostly caldari agents.

Originally by: CCP Molock
Also, regarding the misapprehension that we are made of fail (even though, as noted above, I do indeed fail from time to time), we have every intention of balancing the numbers of high-quality agents across all four empires. In fact, we've just added a number of new high-quality agents to our internal test servers for Roden Shipyards, part of a new Roden Command division, in Gallente space. These will be going out to TQ in the near future.

source


Correct me if I'm mistaken but 4 lvl 4 agents where added by this, 2 of them are right next and 1 rather close to low sec (the other 1 is acctually rather well placed). I don't know of any other agents being added to try and fix the imbalance, if there are pls correct me. You need to take another stab at this and add some more for the factions that need them (minmatar).


Lastly it seems you have lots of plans for missions but not enough time or man-power to implement them all. For example in one blog you where talking about putting in lvl 6 (possibly even 7) agents back in 2007. Promises are nice but action is better and not saying anything is far worse.

Cedkin
Posted - 2010.05.22 10:31:00 - [85]
 

Level 5 courier missions for freighters would be cool :)

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.22 12:41:00 - [86]
 

Hah! Nice nerf, thank you. So courier missions will now be much longer, require more cargo space, and force you to transport mission-specific items that are irreplaceable if lost to a suicide gatecamp.

I see in the patch notes that combat mission agents will now send you to the "least busy" system, which should result in those missions being several jumps away too, rather than in the agent's system like they are now.

All this ****ing off the playerbase, you must think PI is a great expansion with awesome features that will keep us interested despite the nerfs and the continued bugs, eh?

Chalcia
Posted - 2010.05.22 15:14:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Merouk Baas
Hah! Nice nerf, thank you. So courier missions will now be much longer, require more cargo space, and force you to transport mission-specific items that are irreplaceable if lost to a suicide gatecamp.

I see in the patch notes that combat mission agents will now send you to the "least busy" system, which should result in those missions being several jumps away too, rather than in the agent's system like they are now.

All this ****ing off the playerbase, you must think PI is a great expansion with awesome features that will keep us interested despite the nerfs and the continued bugs, eh?


LOL, I think you proved their point about imbalance. As an Amarr mission runner, I looked at the list and thought "Wow, they just made courier missions shorter and quicker! I wonder if they will be too easy now"

quiet gardener
Posted - 2010.05.22 17:38:00 - [88]
 

Ive completely given up reporting the magnate bots in minmatar streaming 24/7 from Kronsur as CCP sends the clear message of "We dont care" by the inaction. Thats a black and white fact. Make the bots KOS, you'll change my game experience completely.

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Posted - 2010.05.22 17:53:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea on 22/05/2010 18:31:02
Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea on 22/05/2010 18:28:18
Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea on 22/05/2010 17:59:25
If we're going to raise the difficulty on the courier missions, raise the rewards to be more in line with other LvL 4 missions too.

It's nearly impossible to get the bonuses on these already. To pull a bonus you have to get there in between 5-10 min. Or are we going back to the old days of "Missions: Impossible!" where you will have to make 47 jumps through Delve for a 37 unit of garbage bonus?

If you're going to force the hauler missions to fly to low sec/0.0 again, I demand that you send every other level 4 there as well.

If you're doing caldari or amarr it's to do combat missions, since you'll get your CNR or navy apoc faster that way.

You know, it occurred to me just now why you're seeing that, and it has little to do with the missions themselves:

Minmatar and gallante industrials 'tend' to be preferred by people who haul a lot of goods around. If my mission running alt is a minmatar with a minmatar hauler, wouldn't it make sense that I'm flying minmatar missions?

iaMsOInSAnE
Minmatar
Mostly Harmless Mining Corp
Posted - 2010.05.22 23:57:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: iaMsOInSAnE on 22/05/2010 23:58:28
I can tell you why those figures are off..

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Sist

Head to the Sist system. watch the traffic. 7,000+ jumps in the last day, for a small system with one belt and two stations, 99% of those jumps are courier bots. Hang out for a bit and watch.

*edit* this is just one example...


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