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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2010.05.19 18:05:00 - [31]
 

How tall is CCP Tallest?

Tarine Ammatari
Posted - 2010.05.19 18:08:00 - [32]
 

How does this relate to low sec and 0.0 courier missions ? Does this mean that low sec and 0.0 couriers will be more dangerous and require more cargo while offering the same rewards ?

Elaron
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.05.19 18:58:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: CCP Tallest
Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad; players of all factions should have access to similar resources. Balanced missions among factions also help to spread out EVE's population, which is good for the server and desirable for our population.


As has been said by a couple of other people, please use this justification to bring balance to LP store rewards for Minmatar and Gallente compared to the (in some cases vastly) superior offerings from Caldari and Amarr because, as you say yourself, giving certain factions clear advantages over other factions is bad.

SirRalph
Minmatar
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2010.05.19 19:09:00 - [34]
 

Don't forget the fact that courier mission bots are solely working Minmatar & Gallente agents... There still are those active. But good job, no more lvl4 shuttle couriers for macros.

BlondieBC
Minmatar
Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2010.05.19 19:46:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Toribo
Edited by: Toribo on 19/05/2010 15:11:10
Quote:
Level 4 courier missions: Cargo will fit into industrials, and the destination will be a neighboring constellation.


All lv4 courriers will be to another constel ? Sad
If there is no changes about the reward, sounds like a nerf.


It is a massive nerf. I was running these in a warp core stabilized interceptor. I could accept about half the missions, and i could make a consistent 4 to 8 million isk per hour plus say 10K or mor LP's. The key was to do the level 4, Q20 agents at big hubs like the Ostingle System. It was so safe, i would often us autopilot. I might lose the ship every few thousand missions.


BlondieBC
Minmatar
Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2010.05.19 19:55:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Also, I would like to ask whether you're making L4 courier missions impossible in low sec. Requiring more than ~10K m^3 will mean they can't be done in blockade runners... which will mean that they pretty much can't be done at all.

-Liang


I agree that the size has to be kept to below the size of a blockade runner or there will be very, very few low sec missions runners. But, even if this is done, the rewards have to be be buffed substantially. Currently an average low sec mission pays 300K to 1000K isks and 1000 to 2300 LP's. So lets call it 2 or 3 million isk per mission. I doubt there will be many low sec courier mission runners if the total payout is less than 10 million. Also, please remember that the point of low sec courier missions is to provide targets for low sec pirates. This change will hurt PVP unless the rewards to the PVE'ers is also increased.

Aethana
Minmatar
Caldari Strike Force
Posted - 2010.05.19 20:09:00 - [37]
 

OK, and why aren't you adding level 5 courier missions that can only be done with a freighter in hi sec? or low sec for jfreighters?

Why do this so half way?

Lucid Daze
Posted - 2010.05.19 20:19:00 - [38]
 

I am far from impartial, but I have to object to this change to level 4 missions on the following grounds.

Currently there are courier missions with destinations anywhere from 0-20 jumps away (when avoiding low sec). Some missions require very little cargo capacity allowing them to be run simultaneously in a smaller ship, while others must be done separately and slowly.

Under the current system good missions pay several times more per hour than the bad and players benefit from choosing the right time to decline a mission or switch agents/area. This is one of the few reasons real players visit certain corners of high-sec: a good courier mission from a bad agent > a bad courier mission from a good agent.

With this change they will all require the same ship and all take roughly the same amount of time. Suddenly there is no reason for a player to switch ships or decline a specific offer. By taking the thought and diversity out of running courier missions you make them both less enjoyable for actual players and easier to macro.

I'm not saying the current system is balanced, but it gave me an enjoyable thing to do while watching TV and I'm not sure what else EVE has to fill that niche. The .01 game is needless aggravation and even PvE risks a ship loss if I spend 5 minutes in the kitchen making a sandwich.

You play EVE your way, I guess I can't play EVE my way anymore.

Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2010.05.19 20:31:00 - [39]
 

So what you're saying is that you assigned the same guys the made the low sec gallente mission to "fix" couriers.

How about using inspiration and creativity to make the courier more interesting instead of using the same broken mechanics.

I have done a lot of couriers and the broken portion is technically the shorter missions. They work that way for gallente/minmatar as they return you to the same station and pay double for the effort.

The level 4 couriers are generally horrible enough but if they have long hauls and terrible pay, ick.

Soriss
Posted - 2010.05.19 20:59:00 - [40]
 

And this is a NEW thing ? the Guristas courier missions work like this for years now ?

Amramtai Srabits'd'Mohas
Posted - 2010.05.19 21:03:00 - [41]
 

I'm only on L1 courier missions, and I was hoping they would get more interesting, rather than just bigger loads carried further :(

hired goon
Posted - 2010.05.19 21:24:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: hired goon on 19/05/2010 21:25:17
Smile

Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2010.05.19 21:57:00 - [43]
 

For all those worried about rewards: remember that they scale according to average time to completion, so L4s will naturally migrate to better pay and LP.

Cygwin Gaad
Caldari
The Element Syndicate
Blazing Angels Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.19 22:24:00 - [44]
 

I like inequality between races, i like a non uniform universe. evening the playing field is good for a while, but thats why you can train anything and move anywhere.
if minnie agents suck, perhaps its time to move to gallente space and what about all that lovely minnie standing you will have to leave behind and make anew with gallente.

Courier missions were definitely in need of a revamp, but maybe this is astroturfing the field a little.
besides, if PI doesnt go according to plan maybe you will need that alternate source of Construction Blocks.

Caphelo
Posted - 2010.05.19 23:49:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Caphelo on 19/05/2010 23:50:15
Edited by: Caphelo on 19/05/2010 23:49:40
Hold the phone. As a reason for this change, you said:

Originally by: CCP Tallest
Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad; players of all factions should have access to similar resources. Balanced missions among factions also help to spread out EVE's population, which is good for the server and desirable for our population.


Yet you're leaving the Gallente as the ONLY race that is stuck with the craptastic STORYLINE mission that sends you twenty jumps away into lowsec for a reward equivalent to a couple bags of llama droppings? That's not imbalanced enough to fix?

Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2010.05.20 02:10:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Casiella Truza
For all those worried about rewards: remember that they scale according to average time to completion, so L4s will naturally migrate to better pay and LP.


You have raised a good point but the scaling system is pegged between certain bounds. This was evident with level 5 missions when the rewards were pegged incorrectly and didn't settle to the correct limits.

If CCP retains the existing reward system but uses longer hauls then level 4 couriers will never be worth running.

If they include a balanced number of missions that return to the agent station for caldari/amarr this would improve those factions missions but they depend on the rewards above.

I am going to try to spend some time testing the changes to see if I can provide some useful feedback.

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.05.20 03:10:00 - [47]
 

My understanding is that the vast majority of missions occur in Amarr/Caldari space so nerfing Minmatar/Gallente courier missions probably isn't going to achieve what you're trying to achieve.

Also as someone who has leveled multiple R&D characters (Hi Duvolle Laboratories!) I have to say that the 'fast and easy' Gallente courier missions are still boring and unrewarding.

What you are proposing sounds like an un-needed nerf to me.

How about courier missions with rats that ambush you on gates or un-dock? Could be random or agent could warn you about a certain system that you were likely to be ambushed in then you make the choice of whether to go through it or around it.

How about race courier missions?

Intercept a rat courier running between 2 systems and grab the cargo?

Smuggle illicit goods, you risk standings hit if caught but they expect you to fly small, fast ships...

Daan Sai
Polytrope
Posted - 2010.05.20 06:01:00 - [48]
 

Volume and distance are not the only parameters that determine how hard a courier mission is.

A courier mission into lowsec is much harder and may require a covert ops frigate process - ie a small cargo but still hard to complete, and hence lvl 3 or 4.

How about:

lvl1: frigate, local

lvl2: couple of frigate trips, one cruiser trip or a frigate trip further.

lvl3: fits in a BC, less local, fits in an indy and more local, fits in a frig and goes into lowsec.

lvl4: fits in a BC, long distance, indy inter region, frigate into low/nullsec...

lvl5: needs a freighter or even a jump freighter and a team operation.

Also cargo that actually degrades or declines the longer you take to transport ( ie radio-isotopes). Illegal cargos.

How about multiple pickup points? There must be more imaginative options...

2c
Daan

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.20 06:37:00 - [49]
 

Quote:
While studying our mission metrics, we noticed that players were running a lot more Gallente/Minmatar courier missions than Amarr/Caldari courier missions (see chart below).



I think that you are confusing cause and effect. You think people run more Gallente/Minatar courier mission because those mission are "better".

My opinion is that people run more Gal/min courier mission because they don't have high quality, combat agents in nearby systems like the Caldari and so must accept the courier missions that are dished out by the (for example) Quafe level 4 Q18 administration agent in Arbaz to get to the combat mission he give.

As the player can refuse only 1 mission every 4 hours without losing standing and that kind of agent give a substantial but not unreasonable quantity of non combat missions the player will accept them, keeping the refusal for the really unwanted missions, and complete them as fast as possible.

So a player running that agent (and several other similar to her) will accept more courier missions than a corresponding Caldari mission runner that has access to several high level and high quality combat agents a few jumps to each other.

So, essentially, stop trying to cure an affect of the imbalance in the combat agents present in game nerfing the non combat agents.



Another effect of this change is that it make pirating ships doing courier missions even less interesting. I think that low sec pirates will find really wonderful to kill some industrial to get 20.000 m3 of "crate of holoreel", size: excessive for any combat pirate ship, market value: 0, ransom value: extremely low.

I think you should do the exact opposite:
- use market items
- ask for a collateral based on median sale price: i.e. the last month the hororeel median price was 250 isk and you should move 100 of them, the collateral is 25.000 isk. If you should move 10.000 of them it is 2.500.000.
You could even put the collateral a 10% above median price to avoid some of the "problems" you foresee.
- "named" (specific ID) items should be used only when there is a RP reason for that (i.e. the transaction and salary log of some storyline mission or other similar situations). Not when the item is 10.000 units of "consumer electronics".

That will make pirates a bit more happy as at least the cargo dropped has some value, mission runners happy as if they lose the (non-specific) cargo they can buy a replacement from the market, albeit to a loss; PI industrialists happy as they will have a bit more buyers.

The program to get the median price is already there, so it will require a limited quantity of programming.

This move seem the old nerf to R&D mission from "get me uranium/mechanical parts, consumer electronics/science students and so on" and "move this stuff (from 1 m3 to 20K)" to the current "get me tritanium" and "move this 0.5 m3 packet".
That change has moved them from somewhat funny (Why he want ground cars for his team in a station? there is a race circuit in the station?) to the current 2pile tritanium/visit agent.

Franga
NQX Innovations
Posted - 2010.05.20 07:03:00 - [50]
 

The closer we get to an expansion release, the more blogs start flowing. I don't always like or care for all of them, but I do love blogs. MOAR!

RedClaws
Amarr
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.05.20 07:06:00 - [51]
 

/me thinks we need a bit more dev response here. Don't just make a blog going "this is the way it is" and then just don't respond to the discussion.

Zargyl
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.20 08:53:00 - [52]
 

Quote:
While studying our mission metrics, we noticed that players were running a lot more Gallente/Minmatar courier missions than Amarr/Caldari courier missions (see chart below).

While studying your mission metrics please do the same chart you did for courier mission also for the combat missions. I dare to say that your pie chart then would look just the other way (with more Caldari/Amarr combat missions run in Q4/2009 than Minmatar/Gallente one).

What does that tell you CCP Tallest? In your line of thinking (as you are nerfing (especially Minmatar/Gallente) missions because of that) you now have to now nerf Caldari/Amarr combat missions in relation to Minmatar/Gallente one, correct?

I think not, so why "just" for the case of courier missions?
The above example should btw please only tell you that you can do whatever you like with these statistics in the way you presented them. Donít use them as an explanation (or even worse as grounds) for changing something without taking into account other things: Balance between missions, balance of agent quality, balance of reward/time spent, balance of LP rewards, balance of busy/lonely systems and so on. (As pointed out by quite a few other poster as well).

Thankx!

As a side note: I think most ppl will agree to that courier missions are more boring than combat missions, and ppl do them mostly because they can be done while doing something else (like watching TV) and can be done fast to grind standings. So why not make those more interesting instead of more boring (= longer distance)?
And if you really should implement those changes, please do a comparision chart listing how many courier missions were done before and after your changes. If the number should be lower afterwards that would mean that you found a way to make some activity in EVE less interesting than before.
Is that your motivation why you change something? I hope not ...
Please make changes to make something _more_ intesting and not _less_ interesting!

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.05.20 08:55:00 - [53]
 

Ok, balance is good. Only thing I didn't understand out of devblog is when will CCP merge all NPC corps, agents and LP stores into one "New Eden Megacorp" to "level the playing field"?

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.05.20 09:21:00 - [54]
 

It is a pity that you had a window open to modify courier missions and you didn't use that time to use your imagination to turn those missions inside out and made them more appealing.
Sometimes these missions are as boring as mining ice, which I always felt is CCP's way of grieving their player base.

Quote:
Courier missions were inconsistent between factions and levels.


So what? Surprised

I really do not see why you guys lately are turning new Eden in to a "one taste for all everywhere".
In your reasoning then there should be as much Omber in Amarr space in belts as in Gallente space, because it is unfair to us in Amarr space that when I go out mining for blue Ice (another example) I have to jump a bloody 23 jumps to get to a blue ice belt in Gallante space.

It's not fair, Whaaaaa! Rolling Eyes

Where is that HTFU up mentality you showed us in that fanfest video?
Are you guys turning soft and mussy on us now?

There is nothing wrong with diversity.

Keep it fresh by having stuff in one place that is not in the other. Hello Kitty is ========> that way. Evil or Very Mad

Oh, btw, Gallente space called they want their own local Eve gate as well. Rolling Eyes


Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
Posted - 2010.05.20 10:17:00 - [55]
 

By increasing the requirements for completion of lowsec l4 courier missions, does this mean that they will now also pay something more than just the customary pittance of LP and isk? Are the rewards being raised to equivalent levels of combat missions?


If one is mandated to move 40KM3 through 12 hops of lowsec, it better be worth more than it has been, or my bet is nobody does it.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.05.20 10:40:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Typhado3 on 20/05/2010 11:06:50
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/05/2010 17:15:30
Originally by: Dev Blog

∑ Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad; players of all factions should have access to similar resources. Balanced missions among factions also help to spread out EVE's population, which is good for the server and desirable for our population.



So how do you explain the massive disparity in Minmatar/Gallente vs Amarr/Caldari LP stores - most obviously with Minmatar vs Amarr. Domination/Republic Fleet items is for the most part inferior to T2 while Caldari/Amarr are superior. Additionally, Amarr and Caldari have (far far far) better agent qualities than Minmatar, and usually in lower sec systems. This situation is so bad that you have to travel ~20 jumps between "high quality" Minmatar agents (read Q16/17 in 0.4/0.7) and Caldari/Amarr have up to FIVE Q20 combat agents in the same station in a 0.1. In case you aren't aware, this means that people running missions for Amarr have much better mission selection, much less travel time, much better LP generation, a much better LP store, and more useful and profitable items.

Giving one faction a clear advantage over another faction is necessarily bad.

-Liang

Ed: Hahaha hi Arkady - good to see another Minmatar loyalist out here stirring the pot. o7


/signed

Time and time again we hear half your balance department say "Certain areas are unequal but balance out overall", the other half we here "Things should be equal in all areas with different strengths". You need to make proper measures and ways for your balance teams to communicate cause right now it isn't working.


Also

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAKE MINING AGENTS GIVE MINING MISSIONS

Originally by: evolopedia

Courier Encounter/Kill Mining Trade
Mining 41.06% 23.85% 27.75% 7.34%



Minmatar have some rather nice mining agents, a lot of hauler missions probably come from those strangely enough.

Tarhim
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.20 11:29:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Caphelo

Yet you're leaving the Gallente as the ONLY race that is stuck with the craptastic STORYLINE mission that sends you twenty jumps away into lowsec for a reward equivalent to a couple bags of llama droppings? That's not imbalanced enough to fix?


Considering that I got mission which was very close to your description (20 jumps out, 4 deep into lowsec, crappy reward) from Caldari lvl 2 agent (not even storyline), hardly the only race.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.20 11:50:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Tarhim
Originally by: Caphelo

Yet you're leaving the Gallente as the ONLY race that is stuck with the craptastic STORYLINE mission that sends you twenty jumps away into lowsec for a reward equivalent to a couple bags of llama droppings? That's not imbalanced enough to fix?


Considering that I got mission which was very close to your description (20 jumps out, 4 deep into lowsec, crappy reward) from Caldari lvl 2 agent (not even storyline), hardly the only race.



Reada bit about those mission here

Those you are referring to are common to every race.

This is a new brad for Gallente only, sending them in FW systems controlled by the Caldari militia, for a normal (high sec) storyline payout (and a crappy one too), against some serious opposition and they are given out by Gallente storyline agents from all zones of EVE.

Some guy had them from storyline agents in Solitude, with the agent requiring him to go in Black Rise to do a combat mission.

I had Caldari friends trying to recover a bit of Gallente standing to keep above -5 getting them.
As the mission require to kill ships from Caldari corporations they had to refuse and it was a net loss of 16 missions done to get a storyline for the standing.
Low level missions as they don't have Gallente standing, so a total loss: low income and no standing.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2010.05.20 12:43:00 - [59]
 

Taking into consideration the example of "holoreels".. why in heaven's name would PI produce those? To sell to NPC buy orders? ugh



Norahb
Posted - 2010.05.20 12:46:00 - [60]
 

I was not aware that balance between the races was a goal . I thought CCP's goal was to have differences between the races . If your goal is to balance the races then you guys fail wholesale . I played WoW during the phase when they balanced the classes and it is the reason that I left that game for this one . Look at what you guys did to Marauders . Look at the stats on those things . They are all identical . Exactly the same to the number on almost every stat . You want to talk about boring . Where is the Gallente Marauder with the drone bonus ? Or the Amarr/Caldari resist bonus based Marauders ? Each race should have differences . It may be a good idea to balance them at a macro level meaning when comparing one race to another as a whole package but micro balancing is not good .


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