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Ninetails o'Cat
League of Super Evil
Posted - 2010.05.18 07:46:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Hey Chronitis, how about you just hire me to work on weapon balancing. I'll work cheap, and I can probably hammer out the basic issues in a couple weeks in Iceland before heading back to Portland. Or just hire me to telecommute.... I r gud at datuhbayses n prowgraymeeng n stuffz!!!

-Liang


^^ This.

The ironic thing is not that CCP is worse at balancing than some players: it's that I think there are some players who would have the actual desire to fix things that have been broken for far too long.

If CCP just came out and told us to shut up and that they were just focused on making the most money they can by releasing hollow and flashy expansions, then everything would be ok. However, they claim that they care about making the game good first, and the profits are just added extras.
How the hell they can claim to do that when rockets are so pointlessly ****ed up that they do less damage than every other frigate weapon with less tracking and crap range, and when blasters are pretty much surpassed in pretty much every way by lasers and autocannons, and when what they say makes EVE so unique (sovereignty) is made completely and utterly redundant by lag, I cannot see.

CCP, if you actually cared about the game itself, you wouldn't let it get to this point in the first place. Even if it did, you'd fix it pretty faster, not just covering it up with "oh yeah, after dominion means whenever the hell we feel like moving away from new shiny crap".

Just my 0.02 ISK. Neutral

Angeli Domini
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.18 07:57:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Hey Chronitis, how about you just hire me to work on weapon balancing. I'll work cheap, and I can probably hammer out the basic issues in a couple weeks in Iceland before heading back to Portland. Or just hire me to telecommute.... I r gud at datuhbayses n prowgraymeeng n stuffz!!!

-Liang


^^ This.

The ironic thing is not that CCP is worse at balancing than some players: it's that I think there are some players who would have the actual desire to fix things that have been broken for far too long.



Then maybe those miracle kids could finally start thinking about leaving their mom's basement and, you know, start clickity here.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.18 13:05:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Angeli Domini
Then maybe those miracle kids could finally start thinking about leaving their mom's basement and, you know, start clickity here.


Just so you know, I don't live in my mom's basement. I guess I live 2800 miles from her. ;-)

But on to the topic:
Originally by: Job Posting

At least 5 years experience as game designer in the industry, having worked on two seperate titles;



I don't have 5 years experience as a game designer - unless you want to consider almost 5 years suggesting (IMO what most people would consider to be REASONABLE fixes for Eve). If you're suggesting I put my resume in and link my forum posting history... ?

-Liang

Arimathea Anthalas
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.05.18 14:12:00 - [64]
 

Soundwave,

While your tongue-in-cheek statement is a little lol and worth the time I took to read it, this isn't a whine thread.

This is a request, from a customer, suggesting that CCP:

  • Keep us updated on the backlog

  • Be accurate in their phrasing

  • Don't try to get it all "perfect" before you release it (it will never be perfect, and CCP should know this more than anyone)

  • Don't wait 6+ months on reporting on something and then release an expansion and not mention it



By Chronotis' statement I can assume it will be 2015 before I get my Assault Frigate changes. I believe it's easy for him to in retrospect say, "I didn't really mean right after Dominion", even though there were several statements by CCP employees suggesting a variety of changes would be "right after" Dominion.
That has an effect on how much money I pay CCP, particularly if I have a character I spent up training for AFs in anticipation of Dominion release.

I don't care how you do it, whether it's through the CSM or whatever, but generally I want companies I do business with to be honest with me and provide an accurate date, or at least a window, when something will be done. As EVE has a wide degree of unplayability for what I usually do (fleet fights), since you can't fix that problem I will naturally turn to things that "work".

When my local cable provider promises me my problem will be fixed by time and date X, they keep their promise or they pay me.
When I tell my boss I will have a report done at 1600 on 19 May, it gets done or at least I tell him how much longer it will be.

If my ESPN is broken i'm going to go watch Fox Sports. Etc. Etc.

I think you get the idea.

Now quit answering the questions "around" my question.

When will we see AF changes? (Summer or not?)
When will you fix the ability for T3 to light a covert cyno?
When will you fix Gallente ships? Is it even on the drawing board? Do you simply think that a T2 ammo rework will solve the problem?
When do you anticipate a fix to rockets?

WHEN WILL I GET MY PONY?

Thanks.

Angeli Domini
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.18 14:26:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

But on to the topic:
Originally by: Job Posting

At least 5 years experience as game designer in the industry, having worked on two seperate titles;



I don't have 5 years experience as a game designer - unless you want to consider almost 5 years suggesting (IMO what most people would consider to be REASONABLE fixes for Eve). If you're suggesting I put my resume in and link my forum posting history... ?

-Liang


I highly doubt most people in CCP itself actually meet those criteria. Heck, I would hardly meet them and I was from the industry. You need to understand that secretly, most people leading those companies are actually pretty reasonable folks, and you have to put something there to filter out the hordes of teenagers that played Halo for a bit yesterday, and already consider themselves programmers, because they can setup graphics options. I've had a resume from a guy that thought he is a programmer, because he "can program windows in that black window like that you get you know when you type cmd and then you can type in there and not like clicking and you can program your network and you can program BAT" (yes, that was one of the worst days in my life, though there were more of those).

Of course, I could hardly speak for CCP, but those criteria you see in ads are almost universally bull****. Sure, it's somewhat tough having "butcher" as your current specialization and looking for a job at CCP, just because you'd like to fix a few bugs. But sometimes, there's a path in the middle... You know web pages? Have some coding skills (flash or whatever else crap they were looking for at the moment)? Cool, start working for them, let the company pay you a few Python courses and what you know, in a year or two, you can be fixing rockets. I've seen that happen before. No doubt there are some really talented people working at CCP, but if someone like Nozh* can work there, anybody can.

* - sorry for picking on that poor dude, just that nobody better came to mind at the moment

Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.05.18 14:31:00 - [66]
 

Don't worry. They may just move assault frigates to a web only minigame for evegate Very Happy

Esk Esme
Caldari
Smack Crack and Pot
Posted - 2010.05.18 14:47:00 - [67]
 

AF do need a boost they been left behind
but thing id like to see sorted is the server upgraded to handle a good few k players fighting in 1 system it probly a big job but isnt that devs job

awsome game but lag in fleet fights is terible and a major let down in eve

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.18 14:50:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Angeli Domini

Of course, I could hardly speak for CCP, but those criteria you see in ads are almost universally bull****. Sure, it's somewhat tough having "butcher" as your current specialization and looking for a job at CCP, just because you'd like to fix a few bugs. But sometimes, there's a path in the middle... You know web pages? Have some coding skills (flash or whatever else crap they were looking for at the moment)? Cool, start working for them, let the company pay you a few Python courses and what you know, in a year or two, you can be fixing rockets. I've seen that happen before. No doubt there are some really talented people working at CCP, but if someone like Nozh* can work there, anybody can.



Eh, sure... I guess. I do plenty of software development (as a Sr Software Developer I should!) and have done a fair bit of contributing to the Python project itself. I just figured that game development is somewhat of a different industry than data warehousing, and if they ask for game dev experience they probably mean it.

-Liang

Angeli Domini
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.18 15:24:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

Eh, sure... I guess. I do plenty of software development (as a Sr Software Developer I should!) and have done a fair bit of contributing to the Python project itself.



In my book, that practically makes you hired.


Originally by: Liang Nuren

I just figured that game development is somewhat of a different industry than data warehousing, and if they ask for game dev experience they probably mean it.



Yes and no, depends. You don't develop the game alone and it's the actual opposite - even with those 5 years/two WoWs on your resume, they won't let you nowhere close to actual EVE code without heavy supervision and multiple Q/A directed towards your every sneeze for many months to come. The risk of a ****up/sabotage/general stupidity (I can write myself a resume to single handedly develop EVE over a weekend.. Anybody can) is simply too big.

Seriously, if you are interested in a job there, just write them. Gather up your portfolio, spice it up with some bull**** (they will subtract 50% of your claims anyway), what can you lose? They won't troll you on the forums, they won't laugh (if so, you will never know), the worst thing that can happen is a short "We are sorry, but you are not the droid we're looking for. We wish you the best of luck elsewhere. And don't write again."

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.05.18 16:04:00 - [70]
 

My main concern with complaints about balancing is that they're almost always based upon a belief that ship A is not as good as ship B. The trouble with that perspective if is that if you do 'balance' ship A with ship B you just get ship Bs. Everywhere.

The question shouldn't be how do we balance ships but how do we make them sufficiently divergent from each other whilst still being an attractive proposition?

C.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.18 16:12:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Cailais
My main concern with complaints about balancing is that they're almost always based upon a belief that ship A is not as good as ship B. The trouble with that perspective if is that if you do 'balance' ship A with ship B you just get ship Bs. Everywhere.

The question shouldn't be how do we balance ships but how do we make them sufficiently divergent from each other whilst still being an attractive proposition?

C.



This is a valid concern, but people normally start complaining about something when there's either nothing its good at or its exceedingly difficult to bring about a favorable situation for and the reward for doing it is so slight. Thus, AFs and Rockets are definitely in need of a boost. Fortunately, rocket boosts are a fairly well explored territory - and IMO there are plenty of AF boost threads which satisfy the idea that they shouldn't be overpowered and not useless either.

-Liang

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.05.18 16:15:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
.. assault frigates ... rockets ... EAF ... Black ops ... tech II ammo




Real!

The Dev team has been "discussing" these ship classes for at least 2 years, just tell us the truth...

you have no plans or resources to "fix" these ships, I would rather hear that then some lame half-assed vague promise.

S'qarpium D'igil
Posted - 2010.05.18 16:35:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Meeko Atari

Real!

The Dev team has been "discussing" these ship classes for at least 2 years, just tell us the truth...

you have no plans or resources to "fix" these ships, I would rather hear that then some lame half-assed vague promise.


Unfortunately this won't happen. CCP lacks the capacity to seriously address our concerns about the game without just spouting their propaganda bs.

I doubt we can expect another serious dev response in this thread (this assumes of course that we consider the two earlier dev responses to be serious in nature).

Captain Mastiff
Posted - 2010.05.18 16:46:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Cailais
My main concern with complaints about balancing is that they're almost always based upon a belief that ship A is not as good as ship B. The trouble with that perspective if is that if you do 'balance' ship A with ship B you just get ship Bs. Everywhere.

The question shouldn't be how do we balance ships but how do we make them sufficiently divergent from each other whilst still being an attractive proposition?

C.



Unfortunately when it comes to Assault Frigates its... ship A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I and any missile based Assault frigate.

Quote:
The question shouldn't be how do we balance ships but how do we make them sufficiently divergent from each other whilst still being an attractive proposition?


The answer is the 2nd skill bonus for assault frigates, if each bonus is individual to the ship it really will make them unique. Rather than the typical failsauce they are. However when it comes to Roflkets... the issue is not "A better than B" Its A being completely nerfed by the fact it can never hit full damage if something starts moving... it needs webs to hit a cruiser for for full damage and its a frigate weapon! Where as B just hits what it wants and much more than A can ever and has ever done so.

So really AF and Roflkets/Explosion Velocity really needs to be looked at. Its not a "balancing" issue as such more of a fix for the **** that was initially.

However we all know they won't fix it and that is probably ever.

BrundleMeth
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
Posted - 2010.05.18 16:56:00 - [75]
 

Well...

I think the new Scorpions look cool...

But I keep getting them shot up omg pls fix...

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.05.18 17:18:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Angeli Domini
Originally by: Liang Nuren

But on to the topic:
Originally by: Job Posting

At least 5 years experience as game designer in the industry, having worked on two seperate titles;



I don't have 5 years experience as a game designer - unless you want to consider almost 5 years suggesting (IMO what most people would consider to be REASONABLE fixes for Eve). If you're suggesting I put my resume in and link my forum posting history... ?

-Liang


I highly doubt most people in CCP itself actually meet those criteria. Heck, I would hardly meet them and I was from the industry. You need to understand that secretly, most people leading those companies are actually pretty reasonable folks, and you have to put something there to filter out the hordes of teenagers that played Halo for a bit yesterday, and already consider themselves programmers, because they can setup graphics options. I've had a resume from a guy that thought he is a programmer, because he "can program windows in that black window like that you get you know when you type cmd and then you can type in there and not like clicking and you can program your network and you can program BAT" (yes, that was one of the worst days in my life, though there were more of those).

Of course, I could hardly speak for CCP, but those criteria you see in ads are almost universally bull****. Sure, it's somewhat tough having "butcher" as your current specialization and looking for a job at CCP, just because you'd like to fix a few bugs. But sometimes, there's a path in the middle... You know web pages? Have some coding skills (flash or whatever else crap they were looking for at the moment)? Cool, start working for them, let the company pay you a few Python courses and what you know, in a year or two, you can be fixing rockets. I've seen that happen before. No doubt there are some really talented people working at CCP, but if someone like Nozh* can work there, anybody can.

* - sorry for picking on that poor dude, just that nobody better came to mind at the moment




You seriously believe this will work?

When was the last time you applied for a job and told them "hire me so I can do what I want"?
And when was the last time you heard "Oh sure!" as the reply.


Seriously, you think e.g. Rockets is not getting fixed just because no one at CCP wants to?
It's not getting fixed because they scheduled a crapton of other stuff before that fix.
What makes you think one could break that schedule and do what he deem right after doing 1-2 years what he was told?

Angeli Domini
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.18 17:35:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga


You seriously believe this will work?

When was the last time you applied for a job and told them "hire me so I can do what I want"?
And when was the last time you heard "Oh sure!" as the reply.


Seriously, you think e.g. Rockets is not getting fixed just because no one at CCP wants to?
It's not getting fixed because they scheduled a crapton of other stuff before that fix.
What makes you think one could break that schedule and do what he deem right after doing 1-2 years what he was told?


Where exactly in my posts did I write single one of those things you seem to be commenting?

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.05.18 17:38:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Angeli Domini
Originally by: Ban Doga


You seriously believe this will work?

When was the last time you applied for a job and told them "hire me so I can do what I want"?
And when was the last time you heard "Oh sure!" as the reply.


Seriously, you think e.g. Rockets is not getting fixed just because no one at CCP wants to?
It's not getting fixed because they scheduled a crapton of other stuff before that fix.
What makes you think one could break that schedule and do what he deem right after doing 1-2 years what he was told?


Where exactly in my posts did I write single one of those things you seem to be commenting?



Originally by: Angeli Domini

Cool, start working for them, let the company pay you a few Python courses and what you know, in a year or two, you can be fixing rockets.


Angeli Domini
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.18 18:13:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: Angeli Domini
Cool, start working for them, let the company pay you a few Python courses and what you know, in a year or two, you can be fixing rockets.




Let me rephrase that sentence for you, my bright friend:

Marvelous! It might be a good idea if you tried to forge an employment relationship with this Crowd Control Productions Games company. Hopefully, in case there will be such an opportunity, and as soon as possible, you should start thinking about accepting any available offer to enter an Employee Education And Training Program, especially with focus on the so called "Python" programming language. While the future is always uncertain, with the right astrological arrangement, you might eventually find yourself in position, where your skills and expertise won't get unnoticed with your executives. Being in the right place at the right time might put you into postion, where you are offered a new working place at the company, actively involving the mechanics of the so called "EVE Online" internet computer game. You can never know, in those years, one of those features you might find yourself working on, who knows, might actually involve the mechanics of computer pixel rockets.

Inappropriate comment removed. Zymurgist

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.05.18 19:17:00 - [80]
 

How things actually work:

Just after an expansion some of the key game designers sit together to discuss what will get done for the next expansion. Fixing rockets, AF, and other items will be on the list, as well as some new ideas kicked around to keep the gameplay life and kicking as well as bringing in new players, the lifeblood of the game.

With this list in hand, said developers will try to mix and match available resources, man-power, and available with the items on the list. A decision will be made to pick-up some items on the list and not spend time on others based on this matching process. Then the expansion/patch/what-ever you wanna call it gets made, hopefully, but clearly not always, on time.

Now we can agree with, or disagree with the priorities used to decide on this list. I certainly do. But beyond you liking some of the items on the eventual list, or you not liking some of the items on the eventual list, cut have to be made, and have been made. Fixing rockets, and the other things, also lamented by me, didn't make the cut. Sorry for you, but that's how it goes, deal with it.

Now instead of epic whinage, why don't you bother your CSM representatives about these priorities some more. Apparently they have the ear of CCP, and there the whinage may actually do some good. Tipping over your toy-cart here clearly isn't going to change the priorities set in motion several months ago. Personally I have already convinced my representative of the imperative to have CCP prioritise fixing: 1. lag, 2. engine trails, and 3. the cyno effect (in that order). I won't mind a fix to rockets and AF either BTW.

Inappropriate content removed.Applebabe

As to CCP, my advice is to hire more proper programmers and lay-off some game designers, as it seems programming capabilities is where the bottleneck is, and I'm not too impressed by your game designers. For this time, I'm not gonna charge for that advice, it's all free ...

Marchocias
Posted - 2010.05.18 19:22:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Marchocias on 18/05/2010 19:22:58
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
As to CCP, my advice is to hire more proper programmers and lay-off some game designers, as it seems programming capabilities is where the bottleneck is, and I'm not too impressed by your game designers. For this time, I'm not gonna charge for that advice, it's all free ...


Pretty much this! Its the coders that are gold dust. Any bugger can design stuff.
Anyway, generally things are better with fewer designers, as one strong leader is likely to have a more convincing vision than a comittee that is trying desperately not to annoy anyone.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.18 19:27:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Marchocias
Edited by: Marchocias on 18/05/2010 19:22:58
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
As to CCP, my advice is to hire more proper programmers and lay-off some game designers, as it seems programming capabilities is where the bottleneck is, and I'm not too impressed by your game designers. For this time, I'm not gonna charge for that advice, it's all free ...


Pretty much this! Its the coders that are gold dust. Any bugger can design stuff.
Anyway, generally things are better with fewer designers, as one strong leader is likely to have a more convincing vision than a comittee that is trying desperately not to annoy anyone.




Granted, I know almost nothing about coding, but I'm surprised that increasing the base damage and explosion velocity of rockets by 25% is such a difficult task.

Maria Martillo
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.18 20:05:00 - [83]
 

There is a common feeling in all of this...
When i started to play EvE i was amazed discovering purposes, to say, skill tree: "so many days for a 2%??? what the ****!!!
then, the time passed and i realised what that 2% means...
It was awesome.
EvE was matter of Patience, much patience..
"Patience is bitter, but his fruits are sooo sweet"
In the same way were some other features, the responses at the forum claims, etc. Doing a second thinking, i could saw beyond the facts, the way CCP managed things with a not apparently, but real wisdom...
It was awesome too, but....
Then CCP started a rush to gain subs numbers....

Patience was lost, and some decisions were taked in that way...
Problem is no AF AB issue, is the lost of that wise patient spirit.

I know things can't stisfy evrybody, but... more and more(useless?) content to bring new people for a while... i'd rather want the smaller,
old, wise and patient EvE i miss.


-Mary, Hammer of infidels
-Disclaimer: Yeah!! my english sucks so the meaning of my post could be diferent of what yo're thinking it is..

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2010.05.18 20:07:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Angeli Domini
Then maybe those miracle kids could finally start thinking about leaving their mom's basement and, you know, start clickity here.


Just so you know, I don't live in my mom's basement. I guess I live 2800 miles from her. ;-)

But on to the topic:
Originally by: Job Posting

At least 5 years experience as game designer in the industry, having worked on two seperate titles;



I don't have 5 years experience as a game designer - unless you want to consider almost 5 years suggesting (IMO what most people would consider to be REASONABLE fixes for Eve). If you're suggesting I put my resume in and link my forum posting history... ?

-Liang


Can you give any examples of other games where your suggestions have improved the overall balance of play?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.18 21:19:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Can you give any examples of other games where your suggestions have improved the overall balance of play?


Depends if you're looking to hire me? Wink

-Liang

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.18 23:51:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 18/05/2010 23:53:11
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

Can you give any examples of other games where your suggestions have improved the overall balance of play?


Does giving examples of games where my suggestions werent listened to and the game went crap count? :)

And yeah same as was posted above - in few cases i REALLY doubt some of devs had required work experience.

EDIT:
also ill make some fun of that rquirements:
Job Requirements:

* At least 3 years experience as game designer in the industry
* A thorough understanding of MMO games design and the development processes
* Understanding and proficiency in systems designs


Sure i agree.

Preferable skills/requirements:
* Good understanding of game mechanics: control, player feedback, game flow, GUI, rules and rewards
* Game logic, game balancing and problem solving skills


Result? Having 3 years of experience but having no clue about the game can give you job faster than actually knowing how game works but having no experience. Ill let you guess which "to_be_dev" person id prefer to play with game balance...

Gil Danastre
Amarr
JAF-CO Exploration
Posted - 2010.05.19 03:50:00 - [87]
 

Sadly it's already been summed up by a dev before as to why things basically get abandoned;

Originally by: CCP Incognito
There has been a few posts that say I am working on this. Just to be clear I am working to get time put on the schedule for this to be redone. The problem with that is that reworking something that is mostly working is harder than getting something new added to the schedule. Things that are new are things that sell EvE and bring in new players, are also cool and shiny... Reworking old stuff only has a small impact, so is less cost effective... Sad cold truth there.... But still fighting the good fight.


Taken from the flogging the dead horse thread

S'qarpium D'igil
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:33:00 - [88]
 

Back to page one.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:47:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Gil Danastre
Sadly it's already been summed up by a dev before as to why things basically get abandoned;

Originally by: CCP Incognito
There has been a few posts that say I am working on this. Just to be clear I am working to get time put on the schedule for this to be redone. The problem with that is that reworking something that is mostly working is harder than getting something new added to the schedule. Things that are new are things that sell EvE and bring in new players, are also cool and shiny... Reworking old stuff only has a small impact, so is less cost effective... Sad cold truth there.... But still fighting the good fight.


Taken from the flogging the dead horse thread
Well that dev comment was mostly aimed at pos where there was never any specific promise to actually do something more with them as they are considered to be 'working' as intended. But yeah given the literal years since certain promises were made about other content and still not so much as a dev blog with simply a big Soon™ as the body has us a bit cranky.

Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:48:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Gil Danastre
Sadly it's already been summed up by a dev before as to why things basically get abandoned;

Originally by: CCP Incognito
There has been a few posts that say I am working on this. Just to be clear I am working to get time put on the schedule for this to be redone. The problem with that is that reworking something that is mostly working is harder than getting something new added to the schedule. Things that are new are things that sell EvE and bring in new players, are also cool and shiny... Reworking old stuff only has a small impact, so is less cost effective... Sad cold truth there.... But still fighting the good fight.


Taken from the flogging the dead horse thread


It's such sh*tty business sense, though. I know a number of people who have quit, and I talk to them occasionally. They'll ask, "Have they fixed (such and such) yet?" "Uh no, but they're adding farmville in space!" isn't exactly the response they're looking for.

Yeah, getting new people to join is important, but at the cost of losing older players? What's the point?


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