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Arimathea Anthalas
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.05.14 02:32:00 - [1]
 

CCP:

Chronotis said in late 2009, regarding AF afterburner bonuses:

it has been delayed to post-dominion as we were prioritized onto other things and could not complete the full changes including rockets and the like and we did not want to deploy it without the full set of changes.

--
Assuming Tyrannis goes as scheduled, we will have Planetary Interaction, a new Scorpion model, and some bug fixes. I'm pleased to see some significant bug fixes to Sovereignty and other areas but to be honest Tyrannis is going to prove perhaps the most underwhelming expansion ever to hit EVE, and even if you were targeting your empire population for this release, I would be underwhelmed (there have been a surfeit of wonderful ideas for science/exploration related ships, module changes, and skill changes posted by your player base, but there has been absolutely nothing mentioned or seen on sisi related to this.)

There were several other changes that were mentioned (by CCP employees) as being "post-Dominion" or Dominion 1.1 or ...

Can we get an update on the (other) promises you have not yet kept?

Specifically, i'd like to hear about T3 covert cyno changes/fixes, the assault frigate bonus, rocket fixes if any.

I'd love to hear about any on-the-board Gallente fixes if any, one of the most commonly underrated races; its ships are falling far behind in combat performance compared to some of the other races, and several things are fundamentally broken.

The AF change, in specific, was announced in October 2009: that is almost nine months ago now and I haven't seen much since then on it.

Would you be willing to provide some commentary?

Thanks.
AA

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.05.14 02:38:00 - [2]
 

How about a 'hotfix' patch as soon as the stated stuff is ready to deploy after tyrannis? No need to wait for the next official expansion as that will mostly be incarna related and we certainly don't want these fixes delayed any longer that humanly possible. Frig roams are gaining popularity and being able to justify taking any other af past the jag and sometimes the wolf would be a huge plus to many a pod pilots happy factor.

Namira Sable
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.05.14 02:53:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Namira Sable on 14/05/2010 02:56:24
More underwhelming than Quantum Rise's marketplaces?

Edit: On further inspection, yes, yes it is:
QR patch notes

Arimathea Anthalas
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.05.14 04:25:00 - [4]
 

QR brought some amazing things: Orca, Weapon Grouping, speed rebalancing, alchemy, significant Marauder, blockade runner, and blackops changes.

All of these had a defining, massive effect on the game.

PI will have a minor impact on the economy.

AF changes will definitely have an impact. In general, I am supportive of things that add capability or options to ships, and not supportive of things that remove capability or options to ships.

T3 capabilities are in some cases overwhelming and in some cases underwhelming (look at legion/proteus vs tengu) but I haven't seen a single effective argument as to why this T3 covops cyno thing shouldn't see some work. CCP says that it's because the code for T3 ship subsystems doesn't support the singling out of modules, but I don't really buy that with the wide variety of modules that can only be fitted on certain classes of ships, and I think any scrum team worth their salt would have that story beaten out in a day or two.

I shouldn't need to mention how Gallente are performing (rails, blasters, and some Gallente ships - the Eos most notably, but the list isn't short) need a hard look.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2010.05.14 18:31:00 - [5]
 

IMO we have not really broken any promise as when we state the issue is deferred, its deferred with no set new release window (this is generally always the case). The patch and release schedule is determined by many factors, however we can see why you might infer 'post-dominion' as 'immediately following dominion' and no matter how many disclaimers we add to our posts, they never seem to be enough. It does suck that we have not been able to slot the assault frigate and rocket reviews into Tyrannis and that those of you eagerly awaiting it will need to wait longer Crying or Very sad but such as the limitation of pipeline bandwidth.

Historically, we tend to do most of our game balancing work during the summer generally as things are quieter then for the teams, especially design. Internally we have done some work on assault frigates and rockets with discussion on EAF and Black ops or tech II ammo closely following it to give an indicator of our balancing backlog.

We can never promise at such an early stage when any change will arrive on tranquility but we are aware of the issues and making progress. As soon as the dust settles from Tyrannis we will look to give you an updated status on the many issues we are looking into and where they stand.

Zeke Mobius
Posted - 2010.05.14 18:57:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Zeke Mobius on 14/05/2010 19:04:07
Edited by: Zeke Mobius on 14/05/2010 18:58:52
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
We can never promise at such an early stage...


I swear the catholic church was faster at admitting the earth was round than CCP at fixing stuff.

**edit

its like every 6 months instead of an expansion i get a giant letdown because stuff that needs obvious fixing doesn't even get thought about.

**even more edit

af bonus Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sad


Jurai Talar
Posted - 2010.05.14 19:11:00 - [7]
 

It seems like the devs look at these bugs/imbalances/problems in a different way than the playerbase.

For most players, there are a handfull of issues that each of them desperately want addressed and they are minor things (personally, I want my Domi to have turrets and thrusters again) so it's seems odd that they can't be tossed in with an expansion.

However, the devs take all these little problems and file them away with a big group of similar issues. Maybe the problems with rockets gets filed into "weapon rebalancing" which it a large project. Thus, instead of a quick rocket fix being thrown in as a side note to an expansion, it has to wait until the "weapon rebalancing" expansion.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.05.14 19:36:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 14/05/2010 19:36:13
From the look of things, the past three expansions I have seen in my EVE lifetime have each brought a whole new major mechanic:
Apocrypha: probing, wormholes, TIII
Dominion: reworked sov, system upgrades
Tyrannis: planetville

I am guessing that a lot of developer time is spent on designing these things, and so less time is left for the fixes/improvements. Yes, I know that graphics designers can't fix lag and network engineers can't balance ships. But every profession is needed to produce a new game system such as those stated above. I think that most of the community as a whole would be happy if, for one expansion, there would be less new mechanics (do not confuse with less new content!), but the expansion was focuseed on polishing the old things and fixing well-known issues.

Jurai Talar
Posted - 2010.05.14 19:58:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 14/05/2010 19:36:13
From the look of things, the past three expansions I have seen in my EVE lifetime have each brought a whole new major mechanic:
Apocrypha: probing, wormholes, TIII
Dominion: reworked sov, system upgrades
Tyrannis: planetville

I am guessing that a lot of developer time is spent on designing these things, and so less time is left for the fixes/improvements. Yes, I know that graphics designers can't fix lag and network engineers can't balance ships. But every profession is needed to produce a new game system such as those stated above. I think that most of the community as a whole would be happy if, for one expansion, there would be less new mechanics (do not confuse with less new content!), but the expansion was focuseed on polishing the old things and fixing well-known issues.


I thought CCP was alternating between new content and revisiting old content with each expansion.

Apocrypha: New Content
Dominion: Rework Old Content
Tyrannis: New Content
????????: Rework Old Content
Incarna: New Content

Monkey M3n
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.05.14 20:25:00 - [10]
 

Hello, I'd like to walk in a station


Thank you


Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.05.14 20:34:00 - [11]
 

That's not how I remember the AF AB boost thread. I remember CCP scrapping the AB changes, not promising to implement them.

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Thanks folks for the feedback!

We have got the message from this individual change that low sec/faction warfare pvp'ers feel it will be either overpowered or not good enough and some one vs one encounters on sisi showed some interesting results which varied between the ships.

For now, thanks for the feedback on this particular change and the other suggestions which have been made thus far. We'll post again with the next iteration of the changes when they are ready for feedback soon!


They tried the AF AB boost, it was OP so AFs have to go to the back of the line until something new is figured out.

Arimathea Anthalas
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.05.14 20:39:00 - [12]
 

Chronotis,

While I respect your comments and for the most part see your point, I think this is a philosophical difference. I think we can both concur the player base never expects CCP to get it right "the first time".

In particular, your comments that "we didn't mean post-Dominion to be post-Dominion, we meant it to be some "indefinite point" in the future" are not what I was expecting to hear and are pretty disappointing. Part of the playerbase's fractured trust in CCP relates very carefully to promises (definite or perceived) and the lack of them being followed up. As zero comments were made between then and now, I think you can understand the elements of frustration (especially as Tyrannis gets closer and players kept wondering "is this all?") Development is hard and nobody expects you to commit to a specific date, I think we do expect some rough timeframe. The limited information coming out of CCP, even with the increased emphasis on CSM, doesn't make things any easier.

The assault frigate changes were widely lauded as a good thing and a smaller group were hypercritical of them, and they "worked". It can't be hard to simply add a bonus to a ship. I think CCP has a philosophical bias towards wanting to get it all right the first time and working hard on balancing everything at once. That is a poor model for a game as dynamic as EVE and I think while the disagreements would be more vocal, we would be better equipped to see many minor adjustments over time than larger adjustments all at once. That is to say that if you feel that you can't make these changes (and remember, they were "in" Dominion and later pulled out), make small incremental changes over time with a goal of at least making the ships "more flyable" in the intermediate time. These changes can be done between major expansion cycles without too much work on anyone's part, and by making them incremental (2-5% instead of 15%) we can see their effect on play over a longer period of time rather than seeing a huge set of changes affect gameplay profoundly.

Just my 0.02c

AA

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.14 21:07:00 - [13]
 

Plus points for answering
Negative points for Soon™ being part of the official development plan

Verdict: At least you answered

Elgaris Dukor
Caldari
Femti Runa Eru
ParadoXon Alliance
Posted - 2010.05.14 21:15:00 - [14]
 

Hello CCP,

how about an expansion that does not implement something completely new but expands already existing features?

You once introduced faction warefare but after a few fixes nothing new came. FW is basically the same as when it started. Why didnt you put your engery in this feature instaed of abandoning it?

With Apocrypha you introduced wormholes and T3. After some fixes and a 4th subsystem nothing new came. There are 2500 solar systems that exists only to gather resources for one ship class. It looked so promissing in the beginning and we hoped for a complete industry evolving around wormholes but you abandond it. Why dont you put your energy into T3 and wormholes instead of developing something new again that is only 50% complete.

With Dominion you revamped the complete sov system. That was great. People can now upgrade systems. Why didnt you add more features to that part of the game? There were so many good ideas from players and yourself too.

Im actually a bit upset. You did throw in a couple of cool new features into the game but you abandon it shortly after introduction in order to free developer resources for the next thing to implement. Instead of more T3, wormhole or sov features we get planetary interaction which is nowhere near finished (acourding to the state of it on sisi).
You implent more and more stuff leaving more and more open issues you want to "look into".

I really hope that you will change your policies on that in the future.
Elgaris.

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks
Posted - 2010.05.14 21:38:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Elgaris Dukor
Hello CCP,

how about an expansion that does not implement something completely new but expands already existing features?

You once introduced faction warefare but after a few fixes nothing new came. FW is basically the same as when it started. Why didnt you put your engery in this feature instaed of abandoning it?

With Apocrypha you introduced wormholes and T3. After some fixes and a 4th subsystem nothing new came. There are 2500 solar systems that exists only to gather resources for one ship class. It looked so promissing in the beginning and we hoped for a complete industry evolving around wormholes but you abandond it. Why dont you put your energy into T3 and wormholes instead of developing something new again that is only 50% complete.

With Dominion you revamped the complete sov system. That was great. People can now upgrade systems. Why didnt you add more features to that part of the game? There were so many good ideas from players and yourself too.

Im actually a bit upset. You did throw in a couple of cool new features into the game but you abandon it shortly after introduction in order to free developer resources for the next thing to implement. Instead of more T3, wormhole or sov features we get planetary interaction which is nowhere near finished (acourding to the state of it on sisi).
You implent more and more stuff leaving more and more open issues you want to "look into".

I really hope that you will change your policies on that in the future.
Elgaris.



This. on a few other note when can we expect to see a improvment to npc as mentioned since captials got added basicaly.
Can we please have some npc that actually make a effort to defened their space.
Like maybe now and then a second spawn on top the one you find in a belt.
NPC officers in varied ships from t2 bc to carriers.
Npc that seige your pos then come back to finish it

Jurai Talar
Posted - 2010.05.14 22:14:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Elgaris Dukor
how about an expansion that does not implement something completely new but expands already existing features?



CCP does expand existing features as you acknowledge with your Sov mechanics example. The issue is that CCP never focuses on the same thing two times in a row.

If EVE was a house that CCP was building, they'd work on the foundation of the front wall for a while, then go work on the foundation for the back wall then the foundation for some interior walls etc etc. Eventually they would move on to framing, then dry walling etc.

You are suggesting that they finish one wall completely (foundation, framing, drywall, paint) before moving on to another wall. The problem with this is that the finished wall with have to be taken apart to fit with the other walls once they start coming together.

CCP looks at EVE with VERY long-term eyes.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.05.14 22:24:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Jurai Talar

You are suggesting that they finish one wall completely (foundation, framing, drywall, paint) before moving on to another wall. The problem with this is that the finished wall with have to be taken apart to fit with the other walls once they start coming together.



If anything at all this just shows that the "building a house" metaphor is not very suitable for making software.

A large collection of unfinished (and thus sometimes poorly working) features is usually not more and not better than a solid, smaller core of well working features.

Everything else is like saying "Hey, we have no paint at the walls but instead we managed to have this nice pool without water and that great TV that only needs someone to hook it up to the wall socket once those are installed..."


Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.05.14 22:34:00 - [18]
 

While we have a dev here, can I get an official response as to your position on the Drake?

Is it "working as intended" or is it "being reviewed"?

Just kinda ridiculous that it's better than a Nighthawk...

Lord FunkyMunky
Posted - 2010.05.14 22:43:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Lord FunkyMunky on 14/05/2010 22:47:18
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
As soon as the dust settles from Tyrannis we will look to give you an updated status on the many issues we are looking into and where they stand.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS THIS THIS THIS

Chronotis, this is what CCP seems to be droping the ball at, people dont want incarna right now, they dont demand AF fixes in tyrannis, what we really need is timelines, that mythical "list" of priorities that CCP says they are working on, you know the one that many things the CSM say we want implemented gets put at the bottom because theirs a backlog.

How about a devblog dedicated to STATUS UPDATE, containing a long list of everything thats outstanding and planned, and the goal and if theirs any work into it yet i mean CCP has been trying to be more transparent but things like progress or goals on when to have incarna ready, are all things we would love to just HEAR ABOUT, but too many things go completely silent are never heard about again.

A State of the Game devblog every month or 2 that just states general progress, and updates on the different items so that the player base knows that things are being worked on and progress in different areas are progressing... im not talking NDA breaking kinda stuff, but come on we've seen videos of incarna how about a leak of a hallway picture or video of walking around or something, how about just throwing ideas about the AF issues around in a devblog to develop conversation with the player base about ideas the devs have for the future releases.

Originally by: Aerilis
While we have a dev here, can I get an official response as to your position on the Drake?

Is it "working as intended" or is it "being reviewed"?

Just kinda ridiculous that it's better than a Nighthawk...


dont worry i'm still wondering why the art department hasnt fixed the fact that when orbiting the drake spews missles from its cockpit or somewhere out in the middle of space. but thats just you know me, i mean we worry about immersion breaking things and then a drake orbits me and starts well materialising rockets, yet the art department had time to redesign the scorpion... how about the effect team (is their one) fixes their effects and releases that in one of these expansions.


Originally by: Jurai Talar

However, the devs take all these little problems and file them away with a big group of similar issues. Maybe the problems with rockets gets filed into "weapon rebalancing" which it a large project. Thus, instead of a quick rocket fix being thrown in as a side note to an expansion, it has to wait until the "weapon rebalancing" expansion.



AND DEAR GOD THIS... what ever happened to point releases????? I love our major expansions, but what ever happened to out of cycle updates? Fixing AF could easily just be a preWinter expansion point release, rockets could be another minor release, these things dont need to be just one giant rebalancing expansion, let us test these things on sisi, before the next big patch is planned, (you know the 2-3 months of time that sisi is sorta dormant between expansion announcements)

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.05.14 23:53:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
How about a devblog dedicated to STATUS UPDATE, containing a long list of everything thats outstanding and planned, and the goal and if theirs any work into it yet i mean CCP has been trying to be more transparent but things like progress or goals on when to have incarna ready, are all things we would love to just HEAR ABOUT, but too many things go completely silent are never heard about again.
This may not be a good idea, because such a list would be a complete disappointment to most hardcore EVE supporters. CCP may know this and would avoid such bad PR. Better to be naively hopeful than to have your hopes shattered.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.05.15 01:24:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Zeba on 15/05/2010 01:24:53


Originally by: CCP 'Heavy Weapons' Chronotis
Crying or Very sad
Cry some moar eh? Ty for the sympathy..

EyeCeeYou
Posted - 2010.05.15 05:59:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
.. assault frigates ... rockets ... EAF ... Black ops ... tech II ammo


Good stuff. Can't wait to see these, esp. AFs, rockets and EAFs.

debbie harrio
Posted - 2010.05.15 06:37:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: EyeCeeYou


Good stuff. Can't wait to see these, esp. AFs, rockets and EAFs.


And Black op's

Th0rG0d
Terminal Pharmaceuticals Inc.
Posted - 2010.05.15 07:29:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
....suck that we have not been able to slot the assault frigate and rocket reviews into Tyrannis and that those of you eagerly awaiting it will need to wait longer Crying or Very sad but such as the limitation of pipeline bandwidth.....



I think I've found the problem!

You just need to upgrade your route Wink

SupaKudoRio
Posted - 2010.05.15 07:51:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
....suck that we have not been able to slot the assault frigate and rocket reviews into Tyrannis and that those of you eagerly awaiting it will need to wait longer Crying or Very sad but such as the limitation of pipeline bandwidth.....



CCP has Microsoft Batch Patching Syndrome. Famous for causing critical problems to go unfixed for months. C/D?

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.15 07:58:00 - [26]
 

no surprises here, ccp development speeds these days are slowing very rapidly , either lost staff or earnng less so less workers

Arimathea Anthalas
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.05.17 01:28:00 - [27]
 

Bumping for more discussion

Arbiter Reformed
Minmatar
Garnet Resources
Posted - 2010.05.17 01:33:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: arbiter reformed on 17/05/2010 01:34:21
Originally by: Zeke Mobius
Edited by: Zeke Mobius on 14/05/2010 19:04:07
Edited by: Zeke Mobius on 14/05/2010 18:58:52
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
We can never promise at such an early stage...


I swear the catholic church was faster at admitting the earth was round than CCP at fixing stuff.

**edit

its like every 6 months instead of an expansion i get a giant letdown because stuff that needs obvious fixing doesn't even get thought about.

**even more edit

af bonus Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sad



as if the catholic church care about science, they are far to busy ****ing children
#
oh yeh boost rokets ffs we dont want half arsed pi anyway

Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.05.17 03:19:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Arimathea Anthalas
Chronotis,
In particular, your comments that "we didn't mean post-Dominion to be post-Dominion, we meant it to be some "indefinite point" in the future" are not what I was expecting to hear and are pretty disappointing.


The fact that you hear something different then what they say is not CCP's fault. "Post-Dominion" means after Dominion. It could be the next patch, expansion, year or a few years down the road. They all fall under the "post" prefix. You wanted them to say, "next expansion" so that is what you heard.


Originally by: Jurai Talar

CCP looks at EVE with VERY long-term eyes.


This is the explanation behind Soon(tm).

T3 is not incomplete. It is just not finished.... yet. Of course it never will be. Eve is an evolving Universe. There will never bee an Eve II. Eve will expand and morph itself over time and will become an "Eve II" though the process. Rockets and AF's are in need of a fixin' and CCP knows this. Someday they will be dealt with. Today is not that day. C'est la vie.

Ghoest
Posted - 2010.05.17 03:38:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
IMO we have not really broken any promise as when we state the issue is deferred, its deferred with no set new release window (this is generally always the case). The patch and release schedule is determined by many factors, however we can see why you might infer 'post-dominion' as 'immediately following dominion' and no matter how many disclaimers we add to our posts, they never seem to be enough. It does suck that we have not been able to slot the assault frigate and rocket reviews into Tyrannis and that those of you eagerly awaiting it will need to wait longer Crying or Very sad but such as the limitation of pipeline bandwidth.

Historically, we tend to do most of our game balancing work during the summer generally as things are quieter then for the teams, especially design. Internally we have done some work on assault frigates and rockets with discussion on EAF and Black ops or tech II ammo closely following it to give an indicator of our balancing backlog.

We can never promise at such an early stage when any change will arrive on tranquility but we are aware of the issues and making progress. As soon as the dust settles from Tyrannis we will look to give you an updated status on the many issues we are looking into and where they stand.




You should be embarrassed to say that stuff. No one believes you at this point - dont you realize?

My guess is youll be caught up with PI/Dust balancing for 2 years then youll move on to ambulation(fashion design in space) and after that youll just say you changed your mind assult frigs dont matter anymore.


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