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Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.06.07 11:33:00 - [151]

Question for dropbear, is Anoik the same thing as Anoikis?

Or, is one of them known space, and the other wormhole space?

(referece: Mid part of your post here, and the latest chron with the two different names)

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2010.06.07 17:27:00 - [152]

Originally by: Myxx
Question for dropbear, is Anoik the same thing as Anoikis?

Or, is one of them known space, and the other wormhole space?

(referece: Mid part of your post here, and the latest chron with the two different names)
He obviously stopped himself before he could let the full name slip.

Posted - 2010.06.08 05:01:00 - [153]

Originally by: Myxx
Question for dropbear, is Anoik the same thing as Anoikis?

Or, is one of them known space, and the other wormhole space?

(referece: Mid part of your post here, and the latest chron with the two different names)

My thoughts is that Anoik... is indeed Anoikis. I think that the ancient homeworld that was discovered through the Vitrauze wormhole in the chronicle is named Anoikis, but I'd have to check again.

As far as I know, there are no planets in known space named Anoikis. No system, either, but then again, even the wormhole systems cannot be found in a search.

Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.06.08 18:05:00 - [154]

How come none of our wormholes exit into Jove space?

True Enlightenment
Posted - 2010.06.09 11:26:00 - [155]

One thing bugs me since this weekend.
I was opening ejected sleeper databanks in some class3 wormhole when it struck me...

Why does ancient sleeper databanks drop things like "caldari hybrid tech decryptor" and such ?
I mean its convenient for T3 industrialists, but to me it would be more logical that empires sell decryptors for their tech or something.

Maybe there is some logic or mechanic to this i dont know yet, maybe its a mistake that they are there where by the story there should not be stuff related to empires in w-space...
...or maybe this is another piece of the puzzle that is here for all to assemble.

So i am asking that, so if there is some explanation to this which i dont know, someone can fill me in Very Happy

I was watching something about planet types ort something today and i saw there are 2 shattered planets in w-space.
Does somebody have a link to their pictures, can they be important somehow, what do you think?

Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2010.06.09 20:24:00 - [156]

For me it is clear that Jovians already knew about WH space and sleepers way before the other races. The 1st time ive seen the word "Fullerene" was in the Jovian event that dropped "bone splinters" and "Complex FULLERENE Shards".

Its clear that such technology was known by Jovians for a long time. Now whats their relation with sleepers is still unknown.

Posted - 2010.06.09 23:06:00 - [157]

Edited by: Terokone on 09/06/2010 23:08:11
And considering the Jovians gave the empires capsule technology, which is full of fullerene polymers--including that C3-FTM Acid which Dropbear (I think) had linked for us a while ago--it would not surprise me if the Jovians had known about the wormholes longer than the other empires. Of course, the Jovians are much more advanced than the other empires and could have both the technology and knowledge to have discovered this on their own.

It should also be noted that in all of known space, there is not a single naturally occurring fullerene cloud. Now, the easiest explanation could be that it's all been gathered already. And yes, fullerenes can be manufactured if the technology exists. Fullerenes also rarely occur in planetary nature.

Tony Sharp
Posted - 2010.06.09 23:17:00 - [158]

There is one thing that no one has tried to factor in that is unique to WHs : wormhole environments and their effects. I can not believe they are just a gamepaly gimmick so they must have a realation to the sleeper story.

Could it be, lets say, that the clue to the solution spawns only in a particular type of WH (ie C5Pulsar, C4Magnetar)?

Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.06.09 23:21:00 - [159]

Edited by: DmD666 on 09/06/2010 23:21:05
The reason before we couldn't get to Jovian space is that no jump gates lead there. Now, none of our wormholes lead there either. Did the Jove learn how to control wormholes and thats where they got their technology? Also can be how they get to our side of the jump gate gap so they can spy on us/whatever.

Posted - 2010.06.10 00:54:00 - [160]

Originally by: Tony Sharp
There is one thing that no one has tried to factor in that is unique to WHs : wormhole environments and their effects. I can not believe they are just a gamepaly gimmick so they must have a realation to the sleeper story.

Could it be, lets say, that the clue to the solution spawns only in a particular type of WH (ie C5Pulsar, C4Magnetar)?

It's assumed that the Sleeper research into Solar Engineering, and the superconductivity of their nanotech and fullerene tech, would allow them to harvest transient radiation generated by these effects and use it and solar power to generate their structures for thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of years.

Before I read that in a different post, I had assumed the Sleepers built stars, but I didn't understand why they'd do that. Most of the stars in the wormhole systems appeared to still have at least a billion years left to live. I've spent hours just thinking about this, why all these are found in wormhole systems and nowhere else, and I haven't been able to come up with a single reason. One of these days I'll have to sit down and read every single chronicle, and everything Pottsey has collected and see if I can make any sense of it. And there are very few in my corp even interested in the Sleepers and wormholes except the isk, so not much input from that source.

It's entirely possible Sleepers had re-ascended the technological ladder as rapidly as the Jove, Takmahl, Talocan, and Yan Yung and left what we call known space. But again, would they do that? The Jove remained in Curse until their empire collapsed and they rebuilt in a different part of space. Unless that's it.

Sleeper history can be found across a wide expanse of empire space in small pieces. If their empire spanned much of known space and they were exiled for some reason, it would make sense that they would have escaped to somewhere they believed would be a bit more unfavorable to others, or where they could experiment/live without interference from outsiders. It may be possible that the Sleepers became extremely xenophobic for some reason.

So many ideas. So many theories. So much to explore. So much to understand.

Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2010.06.10 08:20:00 - [161]

Loving the sleeper enigma so far, can't wait to see how it unfurls. For sure, i'll be looking more closely at the sleeper anomalies, instead of just as floating bags of isk they are to me now Very Happy

The Motley Few
Posted - 2010.06.10 14:54:00 - [162]

Edited by: Sonkut on 10/06/2010 15:03:13
Edited by: Sonkut on 10/06/2010 15:02:06
Going to try and poke and prod a few people theories here to encourage looking more towards the same directions. I have some actual quotes for you too :)
I haven't really got many answers only more questions and some flaky un-proven links that seem overly present already in this article so i will put in proof for my thinking as much as poss.

Did sleepers create the wormholes?

I donít think so, as we know the ISOGEN-5 caused the wormholes but Sleepers mastery of ISOGEN-5 leaves a lot to be desired, they could store it crudely for a reasonable amount of time but the station sized containers used to create the Syllin incident is out of their reach due to the fact they have been around for thousands of years being filled with ISOGEN-5

Storage of massive amounts of ISOGEN Ė 5 requires mastery of Hypereuclidean science Ė something the Talocan had in spades. It was mentioned this was out of technological reach of even the Jove.

INFO on Races

quote = Syllin report

Firstly, the legend of EVE. This states that our ancestors, a civilisation who we think called themselves the Terrans, arrived in New Eden through some form of natural wormhole, thousands of years ago. They founded our civilisations, and it is assumed that they are also the forefathers of the now lost Sleeper, Talocan and Yan-Jung civilisations as well. (end of quote)

From this we can assume what? That we are actually in the milky way? Itís an assumption Iíve seen around a lot, I donít agree with it Ė itís too simple. I prefer to think of two scenarioís: A) the ďterransĒ after years of development sent someone to make contact again, something happened to them. Sleepers Ė caught a nasty dose of plague Ė the others either didnít get there/overshot or something else happened. Personaly I blame the Enheduanni / The ORDER

B) The Wormholes are an effect of space time Ė what if the plague is whatís happened after another hundred or thousand years after the Plague from the Kyonoke pit gets free and itís actually whatís left of the 4 current races.
Enheduanni Ė The Order:

Itís fair to say this could all be part of their ebill plans Ė a race with absolute mastery of quantum physics and particle science, who can teleport and have many technologies out of reach of the Jove. They seem to be the initiators of many events, and donít mind who they use to initiate them and how many lives they destroy.
My dodgy assumption of how it all fits together?

The Enheduanni could in some respects of planned this all out from the start of eve: the eve gate pops up one day in the milky way, the world + dog starts taking over New eden but are still heavily reliant on Terran colonies. The order keen to leave the corporate mess of the Earth empire(I know Iím making up stuff that sounds cool just to make a good backstory) close the Eve gate (the same way they created it) they place drones around to begin storing up this useful material ISOGEN-5 for the purpose of creation of new gates here and there if they wanted to in the future and they let the new civilisations move on in their own way.

The Motley Few
Posted - 2010.06.10 14:59:00 - [163]

Edited by: Sonkut on 10/06/2010 15:17:21
Many thousand years later the mutated versions of the original order are bored with technology and use their masteryís to play puppet master with the 4 empires of Eden. Threatened by possible discovery by the expanding Amarr empire they use their sleeper agents to incite a Amarr Ė minmitar war.

They wipe out the explorations forces sent from Earth of the Sleepers, the Talocan and the Yan-Jung (this works quite well as itís always been seen there will be 3 main forces in space, Americanís, Russians and Chinese you choose which is which, 1 is obvious.

Changing the set up for the Isogen containers so they donít create huge wormholes but small ones they encourage a battle which sets one off, opening wormholes to the Space the Sleepers slumber in their VR systems Ė Protected by their guardian drones.

There are a few problems with this, why is Earth tech so lame Ė I.E. sleepers are less technologically advanced apart form their VR then the Jove. Why are the Enheduanni Threatened by the expansion of the Ammar if they could deal with the sleepers? Maybe they didnít deal with the sleepers and they opened the wormholes so we would do it for them! Also Iíve made up a lot of back story to support the theory. If you Chop the back story there are a lot of points in there that are truthful(in theory).

I know Iíve given you a huge wall of text but I hope it was a interesting read.

The Motley Few
Posted - 2010.06.10 15:44:00 - [164]

Oh noes tripple post - forgot something

On the side of a Wormhole that may hold new answers have a read of this - it's cirtain bits from a report: one part thats missing is that it said Sansha and Sleepers may be working togeather and also the following:

ISHAEKA reports
The sleeper culture itself is, in our opinion, likely a "upload" society. Facing a possible demographic catastrophe due to a widespread plague, the sleeper empire evacuated the physical realm by means of vast data networks to contain their intelligences in a sea of cirtual reality.

Now it seems likely that these bodies, abducted by their guardians, might be somehow used to reenter the physical world, giving their consciousnesses a vessel to integrate with our world once more.

Wormhole systems J235456 may contain something interesting as it was the origin of sansha attack on K-space.

True Enlightenment
Posted - 2010.06.10 19:04:00 - [165]

Edited by: Nishachara on 10/06/2010 19:05:05
hmm... wormhole J235456 ?
I looked it up just now.

class 5
Region : R28
Constellation : C278
Probable static : H296

Red Giant
Description Effect
Heat Damage +34%
Overload Bonus +85%
Smart Bomb Damage+85%
Smart Bomb Range +85%

What is really interesting. my sources show me that there has been a jump into this wh about 4 hours ago eve time.
And there was no jumps in last 48 hours and more probably.
So...someone found it and its probably still there.

Tramlaw Trub
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2010.06.10 23:42:00 - [166]

Originally by: Alain Kinsella
Perhaps because the drones aren't actually drones? Maybe they're what the 'Sleeper' race has placed themselves (or some of them anyway) into.

That would make the collection of tags and certain datacores useful for the empires. If those contain the memory of particular Sleeper (or even Talocan!) members, do you think the empires (or Jove for that matter) really want that in our hands?

I admit this is a bit far-fetched, but does sort of fit with the rest of the discussion here.


Perhaps, but couple that with some of the other artifacts and salvage that stand out (the temporal calculation whatchamajig and the super-fluid-router thingy), I wonder if the drones are just that - drones - but they transmit what they "see" and what they do somewhere and/or somewhen (still doesn't explain why the neurovisual data has to be processed locally). If they were controlled by someone/thing, I don't think there would be need for all of the emergent intelligence and analysis equipment. That tells me that the sleepers are, in fact, autonomous and close to artificial intelligence.

Rambling here, but why neuro-visual and not straight-up spacial data? Anybody ever find any sort of biological remains?

Perhaps the sleepers move in a virtual construct of the mythical Terra and play virtual virtual spaceship games which manifest in the drones. And maybe I need to take a break.

Tramlaw Trub
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2010.06.11 00:36:00 - [167]

Originally by: Nishachara
Why does ancient sleeper databanks drop things like "caldari hybrid tech decryptor" and such ?
I mean its convenient for T3 industrialists, but to me it would be more logical that empires sell decryptors for their tech or something.

I think that its clear from some of the recent things I've read that though the current increase in wormhole phenomenon have allowed general capsuleer access to Anoikis, it is not the first time people from New Eden have visited the place.

Sun'Tzu Yin
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2010.06.11 02:12:00 - [168]

Just reposting a previous thought from another thread. Pardon if this has already been discussed.

Anoikis is a natural form of programmed cell death; the cell strays too far from its cell-matrix (home) it dies, essentialy because the matrix communicates the cells' purpose. Cancerous cells seem adept at surviving such programming upon dislocation; even to the point of thriving in, and subverting new cell-matrices, for its own independent purpose. Call it a magnificent local adaptation to hostile conditions if you are a bioligist, call it a mutation if you are a host. It seems like capsuleer technology would be an ideal way to circumvent a plague that destroyed its host for straying too far.

Is this a general description of, or connected to the Jovian disease?

Connie Focal
The Red Circle Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.11 09:29:00 - [169]

Edited by: Connie Focal on 11/06/2010 09:31:25
Just to add a few points with regards to the above (which of course may be a complete red herring) but I can speak as a biologist and maybe help someone else to join the dots.

To clarify, saying the cell dies when removed from its home environment is true but not wholly accurate. It's more accurate to say that the cell commits suicide. The default state of many body cells is to commit suicide but they receive signals which suppress this effect. Once removed from the site of these signals they commit suicide. In this context, cells become cancerous by either: mutation in the internal mechanisms which drive this suicide; changes to the receptors which make the cell think the signals are always present; starting to emit the signals themselves.

The link to suicide could potentially be linked to the Jove's 'psychological disease', somehow.

Furthermore - I recall a reference to a device which was allowing a drone to synchronise something or other across vast distances. It occurs to me that this could relate to a mechanism that continues to provide a suicide-suppressing signal - ie; by emitting a copy of the signal at its new location, to use the cancer example above. Could the ubiquitous anomalies in Sleeper systems be related to a signalling mechanism? Perhaps if removed from the location of these signals (ie; if they stray too far) then the suicide mechanism kicks in.

Just a few thoughts.

Posted - 2010.06.11 11:07:00 - [170]

Here's a thought: If you wanted to create a self replicating, self maintaining AI that was designed to protect you when you nolonger have physical form, then you might want to program a failsafe into it to make sure it doesn't spread uncontrolably, and take over the galaxy. Programming an artificial anoikis into them if they stray too far away from where their creators wanted them to be might be a good idea then.

Sun'Tzu Yin
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2010.06.11 13:31:00 - [171]

Edited by: Sun''Tzu Yin on 11/06/2010 22:01:01
Edited by: Sun''Tzu Yin on 11/06/2010 13:34:00
Thank you, Connie, for clarifying and expanding my grossly oversimplified description. It strikes me that kspace rogue drones may be a failed form of sleeper technology. The cancerous one that is slowly expanding across the galaxy with no "off" signal to impede its replication. This line of reasoning makes my skin crawl. Hidden in plain sight indeed.

Bartholomeus Crane
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.06.13 16:53:00 - [172]

Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 13/06/2010 16:53:43
Sorry for reacting so late, I haven't forgotten about this thread, it's just that my computer caught a nasty virus and I'm inundated at work writing this distributed event-based simulation. Also, I'm watching the tournament (missed some unfortunately), so this may take a while to finish.

Anyway, as a reaction on Dropbear's post:
1. It seems we (or I) got a bit carried away with our theory-crafting based on the Anoikis chronicle. Things are probably not as deep as they may seem.
2. With respect to the name of Vitrauze, Oruze, and Oruze Osobnyk, we can probably forget about the complex Latin etymology descriptions, although there is still something to be found here. I like the idea of Oruze having a connection with rising, or origin (nice idea), but I'm still not clear about Osobnyk. Thus far the explanations, including my feeble attempts simply do not click.
3. The idea with Lianda coming to Wspace to die, and the Anoikis title is interesting given the recent excellent explanation of the term (well done). As such I ready to call that the title is actually not directly related to the Sleepers as such, but is a reference to Lianda. She is the 'cell' that's lost from home, and subsequently dies/commits suicide. Its straightforward enough to be believable.
4. Although that sounds neat, it doesn't explain everything. Lianda may have come to Vitrauze/Oruze complex to die, and know it, but that doesn't say anything about the why. They simple idea that she was lost or separated from Kspace doesn't cut it for me. Capsuleers go into Wspace all the time, and we don't feel the need to self-destruct, so why would Lianda. It's a nice story element, very evocative and such, but it does nothing to explain why she's pushed to such an extreme.

"It's a theme echoed throughout her own plan of actions; she's going to do something that costs her life, but others who live on - such as you - are going to pick up the on her trail, and tread the hidden paths."[Dropbear], is a nice cryptic clue, but doesn't help a lot on explain the why. It is hardly believable that Lianda's suicide would affect the Capsuleers to such an extend as to implore the greater Capsuleer community to explore Wspace further.

Given that Lianda was such a clear researcher trope in the story, I feel compelled to believe that her suicide, backed-up with a clone let's not forget, was a deliberate act of investigation to further her clearly stated ideals and goals. She wanted to know more about the Sleepers and Wspace, and she knew the only way to further those was to die. All things equal, with her having a clone, she might just be alive and well hiding somewhere in Empire. Which might actually be where she transmitted the locus from?

Although that would certainly wrap up the Chronicle quite nicely, it still leaves a lot of questions regarding the Sleeper Enigma unanswered and so that is something I'll be concentrating on.

But first, back to watching the tourney ...

Crimson Sanguinius
Posted - 2010.06.14 06:32:00 - [173]

I'm thinking more and more that all the sleeper tech points to Dyson Spheres which are fed by the radiation of the star at the center (neutron, pulsar, dwarf -maybe even how to harness black hole rad). From the map of wormholes doesn't it seem that WH space is hidden space between existing areas? All the mention of K-space and whatnot eludes me -it's a different layer right? Looks to be a universe under/next to/above/out of phase with out own. Sleepers went through a lot of trouble to "Sink" their empires out of reach and now we've gone poking around finding wormholes galore and going "Repo" on them looting their goodies. The Sansha's have figured out how to create wormholes for travel and we've figured out how to destabilized them. At some point we're gonna see a ship that creates wormholes and one dedicated to destabilizing them. A whole new era of travel, right? We're gonna trigger something horrible and these sleeper Dyson Spheres are going to go active, unsink their space, re-awaken, and wage a horrific war to reclaim what is theirs as they were here first and we're just offshoots. We are being engineered to survive the onslaught instead of retreating into techonologiy as the sleepers did.

Katrina Bekers
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2010.06.15 14:05:00 - [174]

Originally by: Crimson Sanguinius
At some point we're gonna see a ship that creates wormholes and one dedicated to destabilizing them.

Is this the yet-to-be-reintroduced "mothership" concept you're talking about?

Sun'Tzu Yin
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2010.06.16 00:18:00 - [175]

Edited by: Sun''Tzu Yin on 16/06/2010 00:18:30
Are Sleepers a human civilization or the emergent AI descendants/guardians/jailers of quarantined Talocans?

Posted - 2010.06.16 04:37:00 - [176]

Sleepers are a human civilization who are currently "away". The Sleeper drones we fight at wormhole sites are the emergent AI, and perhaps even some Sleepers through virtual lives, although I'm sure some will disagree with me on that point. It hasn't been 100% established exactly where/what the Sleepers are now.

Inner Conflict
Posted - 2010.06.17 07:49:00 - [177]

Edited by: Sadayiel on 17/06/2010 07:49:40
Just to add a little note, today while playing with the database i found something relatively curious.

If you check the Races timelines, there is a point that marks that a wormhole or wormholes opened/appeared before the EVE gate one.
Since dropbear already pointed all this is as old as eve original history, maybe that's another indicator of an even ancient origin of sleepers/talocans than terra humans.

Lisa Ascendent
Posted - 2010.06.18 16:37:00 - [178]

Sweet! This thread made the EVE newsletter!

Posted - 2010.06.18 19:33:00 - [179]

Might just be grasping at straws here, but maybe the mission line "New Frontiers" has a certain relation to what happened to the Sleepers. For those who don't remember it, some mad scientist (Prof. Kajurei Delainen) programmed some nanites and injected them into a BC which then merged with him forming a symbiote ship with human-patterned AI, which was capable of communicating with a nearby rogue drone hive.

"Dr. Calus has completed her study of the Delainen-ROM symbiote's AI core and the CPU you got for us. They're like nothing we've ever seen before. A strange combination of human thought patterns, atomic-scale nanites, and constantly evolving neural networks." (Notably, fields in which the Sleepers were renowned)

This just might be similar to how the sleepers preserved themselves. It is also stated in the final mission that the hybrid is also capable of self-replication, so one could perhaps even see this as the next step in a line of evolution for them as a race.

Fellous Nile
Posted - 2010.06.19 00:08:00 - [180]

Edited by: Fellous Nile on 19/06/2010 00:08:10
I wonder.

Is the appearance of wormholes a prelude to a Sleeper 'awakening' of sorts? An invasion?

Or could it be that the technology that previously held Sleeper wormhole space seperate from normal space has broken down, potentially releasing whatever they wanted to keep seperate from the galaxy?

I can only think of acouple reasons why any advance species would slumber: Plague they can't cure, so they hide until it dies/Monster they created, so they block the wormholes and hide/Invasion by predatory species or

They've killed everything advanced and capable of fighting out there and are waiting for more worthy prey.

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