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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.16 22:24:00 - [901]
 

Originally by: Lancashirian
Quote:
The fact that there are archeological Sleeper finds in the Ani constellation in K-space is no evidence for it being their starting point. As a matter of fact I dont think it is. Also I dont see evidence the Sleepers were moving at all.


Which systems?


Pretty much the whole of Ani, it's the Minimatar COSMOS.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2011.01.17 07:31:00 - [902]
 

Auwnie Morohe said "The fact that there are archeological Sleeper finds in the Ani constellation in K-space is no evidence for it being their starting point. As a matter of fact I dont think it is. Also I dont see evidence the Sleepers were moving at all."
I never said it's the starting point if anything they are like the Yan Jung with the Sleeper starting point being though the other side of the Eve gate and then the settled in Ani constellation but perhaps they settled somewhere else then moved to Ani. But I would be very surprised if they settled anywhere before Ani unless they are a much younger civilisation then the Yan Jung.

But that aside it's clear the Sleepers in Ani pre date the Sleepers in w-space. It seems to me the sleepers moved from Ani and ended up in Wspace. There might or might not be stops in-between Ani and Wspace but the Sleepers did move and at some point abandoned the home system in known K space.I don't see any evidence Sleepers are nomads like the Talocan. If anything it looks like the Sleepers settled in the centre of wspace (Class 6) then spread outwards in all directions in a circle pattern with class 1 being the outer skirts of the massive 2500+ sector empire.

Alana Kel
Posted - 2011.01.17 08:35:00 - [903]
 

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
I have entertained a few Hypothesis on this subject.
1: Maybe the sleepers in short sent machines here to build thier constructs, then they send themselves here as Datastreams. Now they are bidding their time to contruct enough clones to fullfill their objective ?.

Where are they constructing the clones, and what of the Talocan? ugh
Quote:
2: The Sleepers obtained above mentioned brain/cell disorders in the past, downloaded themselves, and are now awakening since there now is a cure ?

The thing about the process I described, you will get a lot of data. More data than you could really handle. So much data that you'd have to back it up, and then sort through it and find "matches" to certain criteria.

In short, a ton of info to sift through. Virtually constructing new and interesting things at break-neck pace, over thousands of years? Well, that's a ton of processing power that's needed. If you were looking for a specific cure, you'd have to wait. A long, long time. However, in the meantime, you would be getting a ton of (potential) new innovations.

The Sleeper drones themselves back up this idea; the older, larger Battleships; the slightly newer cruisers; and the brand-spanking new, factory fresh frigates. I would also surmise that the information accessible in The Mirror's various Enclaves is new data; sorting through the jumble of information at various mirrors to find matches to various projects would be difficult without a sort of "search program" running.

How would you do that without being the one who made the system? Why, you'd want a computer worm. Kind of like what you'd use to circumvent drone programming. Like, oh, I don't know... Rogue Drones? I mean, someone has an "off" switch to those pesky bugs...YARRRR!!

Quote:
Well it is for certain a adictive mystery :)
Yes, yes it is. Cool I do think there are multiple mysteries, not necessarily interconnected ones even.

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.01.17 13:21:00 - [904]
 

Pottsey : I am going to have a closer look at Minmatar COSMOS but I dont think there is any mention of Sleepers having actually lived there. I think but again this needs confirming that the other COSMOS races there is actual mention of them having lived in the constellation.

A lot of mistakes in interpretation are made because of wrong preconceived ideas. For instance I still assume the Sleepers are the Infomorphs which takes travel as far as I am concerned entirely out of their equation. But I could be wrong of course.

Still one wonders, COSMOS?
Constellations Of Sneaky Manifacture Obfuscated Storyline.Shocked
Wow that is the best I can come up with, I need a bigger vocabulary.Cool

Alana Kel
Posted - 2011.01.17 22:09:00 - [905]
 

Originally by: Auwnie Morohe
Still one wonders, COSMOS?
Constellations Of Sneaky Manifacture Obfuscated Storyline.Shocked

More like Cosmos.

As opposed to Chaos.

::whistles innocently::
Wait for it...
.
.
.
.
.
It may not make sense at first.

Lancashirian
Posted - 2011.01.19 17:00:00 - [906]
 

So... I've started doing some of the matari cosmos missions, some of them sleeper related, some not. This has only served to pique my interest in the whole mystery of New Eden's past. Sure, civilizations die out. The Romans did. No one is really sure how to speak Latin. But the modern day Italians are the descendants of the Romans. Who is to say that the 4 races now aren't descendants of the sleepers, Talocans, Yan Jung, etc. Speaking of Yan Jung, has anyone read anything about Carl Jung and his theories on shadows? Yeah... we are the shadows of their past.

K'hanesh Lor'al
Amarr
The Golden Knights
Posted - 2011.01.19 18:54:00 - [907]
 

^^^^
I agree. Please see my post on the first page of This Threadfor my full opinion and why. But I think the modern races are definitely descendent...

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2011.01.20 17:20:00 - [908]
 

Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 20/01/2011 17:38:16
So. Talocans are pioneers. Sleepers were researching Talocans. Talocans had a disease deadly enough to the Sleepers to set up quarantine areas for it, but overall the Sleepers appear to be a more advanced culture picking over the bones of an older culture. Sleepers were also gathering Terran artifacts. Jovians today are keeping Terran artifacts cloaked from our sight.

It's starting to look more and more like Talocans = first empire, Sleepers = second empire, Joves = third. I'd love to get a crack at wormhole J235456 and that Sleeper archive terminal that nobody seems to have opened yet.

I'm betting the Yan Jung are the ancestors of the quasi-Asian bloodlines in Eve, and Takmahl are proto-Amarr.

edit: Has anyone tried using an Echelon's codebreaker/analyzer on various Sleeper stuff yet?

Tykari
Gallente
Effective Deconstruction Initiative
Neon Equinox
Posted - 2011.01.20 23:22:00 - [909]
 

Speaking of the Talocan. Where did the term "static" wormhole come from exactly? Was it something players invented and applied? I'm asking because I wonder if it is a coincidence that the Talocan have structures called Static gates that were apparently used as their way of travel.

Deceiver's Voice
Posted - 2011.01.21 00:10:00 - [910]
 

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
It's starting to look more and more like Talocans = first empire, Sleepers = second empire, Joves = third. I'd love to get a crack at wormhole J235456 and that Sleeper archive terminal that nobody seems to have opened yet.

Wait, WHAT!?

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2011.01.21 00:27:00 - [911]
 

Originally by: Deceiver's Voice
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
It's starting to look more and more like Talocans = first empire, Sleepers = second empire, Joves = third. I'd love to get a crack at wormhole J235456 and that Sleeper archive terminal that nobody seems to have opened yet.

Wait, WHAT!?


What what, I'm just batting ideas around :p

Lancashirian
Posted - 2011.01.21 01:43:00 - [912]
 

Ok, so in doing the minmatar COSMOS missions, I ran into something VERY interesting in the Traun system in the "Contested minmatar military complex." A "Damaged Portal" that CLEARLY has a star cluster visible through it. Now, for a certain mission, you have to blow it up and take what it drops, but what if it can be interacted with in some other fashion? Could it be repaired?

Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.01.21 04:11:00 - [913]
 

Originally by: Tykari
Speaking of the Talocan. Where did the term "static" wormhole come from exactly? Was it something players invented and applied? I'm asking because I wonder if it is a coincidence that the Talocan have structures called Static gates that were apparently used as their way of travel.


Yes, it was invented to describe the particular connection each wormhole system ALWAYS has. For example, the C4 I live in ALWAYS has a connection to some C2 somewhere, though which one changes every 16 hours.

And it's been long postulated to the point it's accepted theory that the sleeper/Talocan structures are creating these static connections. How controlled their creation and destinations are remains to be seen, but at least one Man that we know of can already do it at will.

Thoraxe Rig
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.24 02:38:00 - [914]
 

As a slightly off topic thing.

Is it just me who thinks that it would be really freaking nice to have a single (dedicated to the topic) website where all the accepted theories, unapproved theories and rejected theories + evidence can be placed and more importantly, netted together for ALL to see so that things might be a little more efficient?
It might also make the bigger picture a little easier to see and as such easier to build upon and repair.

okst666
Posted - 2011.01.28 23:21:00 - [915]
 

maybe a wiki?

I could set one up

Nishachara
True Enlightenment
Posted - 2011.01.29 01:58:00 - [916]
 

Originally by: okst666
maybe a wiki?

I could set one up


That would be nice...

So on that wiki we could post all different theories and evidence with those theories, also empirical evidence that is found could be also there..so everyone could compare theories (or just read about them) with evidence found so far...


Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.29 06:09:00 - [917]
 


You mean like the Evelopedia ?

okst666
Posted - 2011.01.29 13:22:00 - [918]
 

well yes...something like the evelopedia. :D

Having an own wiki is one thing, organising and managing it, is a whole different one.
Evelopedia is allready moderated and stuff. One should ask for an own category for sleeper-theories.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.01.30 07:19:00 - [919]
 

Originally by: okst666
well yes...something like the evelopedia. :D

Having an own wiki is one thing, organising and managing it, is a whole different one.
Evelopedia is allready moderated and stuff. One should ask for an own category for sleeper-theories.


Its a wiki - you can create your own categories, no need to ask.

Roland Schlosser
THE EXOGEN CONSORTIUM
Posted - 2011.01.31 18:07:00 - [920]
 

This is my 2 cents on what I can manage to wrap my brain around right now. I have been to all classes of WH, and seen every site listed in this discussion. I'm sure there's more I haven't seen.


Thandormi
Posted - 2011.01.31 21:18:00 - [921]
 

I've been through most of this thread, and pottsey's thread on Sleeper info. If this has been covered in another thread, I apologize. In Theodicy, The Jove tell us that the Enheduanni is trying to force the 4 Empires to war, and one of the ways they do that is by replacing people with genetic duplicates. Has there been any research or clues that might indicate whether or not Empress Jamyl Sarum is one of these duplicates?? She did, after all, apparently return from the dead to take the throne, in possession of a weapon of incredible power.

Given the "war" between the Enheduanni and the Jove/Empires, plus the various connections between the Jove/Sansha/Sleepers, it seems to me like it might be of importance.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.01 00:43:00 - [922]
 

Originally by: Thandormi
I've been through most of this thread, and pottsey's thread on Sleeper info. If this has been covered in another thread, I apologize. In Theodicy, The Jove tell us that the Enheduanni is trying to force the 4 Empires to war, and one of the ways they do that is by replacing people with genetic duplicates. Has there been any research or clues that might indicate whether or not Empress Jamyl Sarum is one of these duplicates?? She did, after all, apparently return from the dead to take the throne, in possession of a weapon of incredible power.

Given the "war" between the Enheduanni and the Jove/Empires, plus the various connections between the Jove/Sansha/Sleepers, it seems to me like it might be of importance.


In the Empyrean Age novel, she is under a similar influence, introduced to her mind during her cloning.

Then again it it just might be schizophrenia.

Janelle Solette
Posted - 2011.02.08 07:48:00 - [923]
 

Edited by: Janelle Solette on 08/02/2011 08:06:38
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
In the Empyrean Age novel, she is under a similar influence, introduced to her mind during her cloning.

Then again it it just might be schizophrenia.


Hmm. Well, in my opinion you are very, very close as to what is behind Jamyl's condition, but not quite there yet.

Think of it like this. She was enhanced in many ways. Physically and mentally. Experimental technology was used to give her an "edge" for "what was to come".

The funny thing about the brain? Sometimes certain "gifts" might be seen as something negative. Like, say, hearing voices. If the voices were the only side effect, there could very well be schizophrenia. Taking other matters into consideration... for instance, her ability to use scripture as a guide beyond their original intent (seeing patterns that others would miss), and the "Voice" providing guidance in Amarrian culture as well as driving her forward. Would that not be construed in some situations as a message from God?

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that there is a very reasonable explanation. Like, for instance, cybernetic implants or alterations of the mind through other means, like genetic manipulation. Or any combination thereof.

Considering the amount of cybernetics available, and the amount of tampering done to Jamyl's clone before she was podded in the Succession Trial, and the complications afterwards, would it not be possible that she is gifted? Yes. Is it possible that she is in possession of enhanced problem solving and pattern correlation abilities? Yes. In fact, another individual who faced some problems during the cloning process (and played a large role in The Empyrean Age) explained exactly how a Capsuleer can be different than a normal human.

So, the only remaining possibility (not related to "God" or "Science") is the mysterious third option; the Enheduanni. Do we have evidence of the Enheduanni manipulating Jamyl, aside from the "Voice"? I don't think so. The "Voice" has other possible explanations; those explanations are well within the body of evidence present. I don't rule out entirely some tampering by a third party, but Jamyl's current situation, intent and focus seems far outside of their stated intent.

There is nothing truly "special" about Jamyl; what is special is the unique combination of traits she possesses. These traits paint a very clear picture of what she is, who she is, and how she can do what she can do.

So, let's look at the evidence.

1. She is a Capsuleer.
2. Her clone was manipulated.
3. Something unusual did happen to her (the length of her "download"). Now, there is a reason why this could be significant; can you guess why?
4. The firing of the Terran "Super Weapon" affected her. Why? There is a possible explanation, but it's takes a leap of logic; can you guess what that is?
5. She has been noted as being "psychic" by some people.

I can read people's intent based on actions, but to truly see into the mind of another? That is a rare gift indeed. I also don't believe she has that gift. ;) I just think she's very, very good at reading a situation, and predicting responses.

This isn't directly tied to the Sleeper mystery directly but it is something that the Sleeper sites can shed some light on in a tangential way.

Rogue Drones, Sleepers, and pre-Jovian weapons, oh my! This is kind of exciting!

Allant Doran
Amarr
Locus Industries
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:47:00 - [924]
 

Ok, no offence but...

Originally by: Janelle Solette

3. Something unusual did happen to her (the length of her "download"). Now, there is a reason why this could be significant; can you guess why?
4. The firing of the Terran "Super Weapon" affected her. Why? There is a possible explanation, but it's takes a leap of logic; can you guess what that is?



This is the kind of thing we should be avoiding while trying to figure this out. The story and events are already mysterious enough as it is. The last thing we need, as a community trying to figure this out, is others in that community trying to be extra vague. If you're going to suggest something, spell it out for all of us.

Sure, not everyone who's involved knows enough to be deeply involved so, for the most part, they may not have anything useful to add but the one person who holds a single key bit of info may be missing out due to this excessive vagueness.

Either state something you know to be fact as openly as you can or suggest something as a theory. Please do not make us guess at things when you seeem to already know the exact answer. This is what ends up derailing theories and speculation and makes the evidence even harder to find.

Thank you.

Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2011.02.08 17:25:00 - [925]
 

I don't think your attempts at placing Jamyl's superpowers in the realm of the mundane does any good. People who hear voices in their head are either crazy or crazy. The only way it isn't insanity (schizophrenia at least) is if somebody, like the Enheduanni, are tapping into her. We already know IRL that you can send aural messages to somebody's mind just by the use of the right kind of EM, bypassing actual sound altogether. Take the Egon, for example, and you already have a situation in EVE where the mind is being manipulated externally by mass produced consumer technology.

As well, I agree with the previous post denouncing being pointlessly vague. I know it makes you feel good to lord something over people, but when what you are lording is speculative at best then you look narcissistic and even arrogant.

Janelle Solette
Posted - 2011.02.08 23:31:00 - [926]
 

Originally by: Veriasse Valence
As well, I agree with the previous post denouncing being pointlessly vague. I know it makes you feel good to lord something over people, but when what you are lording is speculative at best then you look narcissistic and even arrogant.

Who says I'm not narcissistic and arrogant? Wink As they say, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Point taken though.

Why would the length of time be significant in relation to cloning? For the simple fact that, according to the scientific article on cloning on this site, genetic factors do not come into play for a while after a clone is made. This is one reason why The Broker has problems keeping his "super clones" alive; they're degrading the moment he clone jumps into them due to incompatible genetics.

So, What's wrong with Sarum? My guess is that it comes down to genetic factors. Is she crazy? As I said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar; that does not mean that the "craziness" isn't a byproduct of a trait deemed "beneficial" in the long run.

Quote:
I don't think your attempts at placing Jamyl's superpowers in the realm of the mundane does any good.

Neither does speculating as to whether or not it is caused by external sources; however, one theory is more likely than the other given the evidence.

Also, Tony Gonzales has flat out said that the Enheduanni had nothing to do with Jamyl. So, if you don't trust the author himself...

Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2011.02.09 02:05:00 - [927]
 

Edited by: Veriasse Valence on 09/02/2011 02:08:23
Edited by: Veriasse Valence on 09/02/2011 02:06:33
Originally by: Janelle Solette
Who says I'm not narcissistic and arrogant? As they say, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Point taken though.


I didn't mean to be an ass myself, but yah, this is a frustrating enough mystery without having to guess what other people are thinking.

Originally by: Janelle Solette

Why would the length of time be significant in relation to cloning? For the simple fact that, according to the scientific article on cloning on this site, genetic factors do not come into play for a while after a clone is made. This is one reason why The Broker has problems keeping his "super clones" alive; they're degrading the moment he clone jumps into them due to incompatible genetics.

So, What's wrong with Sarum? My guess is that it comes down to genetic factors. Is she crazy? As I said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar; that does not mean that the "craziness" isn't a byproduct of a trait deemed "beneficial" in the long run.


I think we need to establish some things beforehand. We are approaching this with different assumptions, I think, since I am not fully following all the arguments here. Sarum was only cloned a single time as far as we know (as I know at least). The only anomaly with that cloning process was that it took WAY too long for the data to be transmitted to the cloning station. When it arrived, it was immensely expanded, indicating that the original Sarum was extensively modified. Following the cloning, the new Sarum has some impressive abilities, like being able to psychically project thoughts across light years (does she not send thoughts and commands to Victor from quite some distance in Empyrean Age?).

This isn't normal, nor do I think you can chalk this up to a mere genetic incompatibility or by product. That is some tampering, engineering, and purposeful rearrangement. She can do a ton of new superhuman things, has a surprisingly smart voice in her head with a mind of its own, and instinctively knows where to find epic Terran artifacts.

Way too many specific things happening to be a coincidence.

Originally by: Janelle Solette
Also, Tony Gonzales has flat out said that the Enheduanni had nothing to do with Jamyl. So, if you don't trust the author himself...


I've never heard of this piece of information. Do you have a link for that? It's pretty big and seems like a lot of people are unaware of it. And, as we know, the Enheduanni are not the only entity capable of creating cloned agents using advanced technology; the Sleepers can as well, and likely the Jove too.

Doctor Carbonatite
Corporation for Public Broadcasting
Posted - 2011.02.09 06:29:00 - [928]
 

Edited by: Doctor Carbonatite on 09/02/2011 06:29:25
The Broker and Enheduanni arcs do need fleshing out in a bad way. Both are major elements that have only been given single treatments; neither has been incorporated into subsequent chronicles. They need to be dealt with again, whether expanded or concluded.

Edit:

Although concluding the Enheduanni arc would remove the lore reason for the lack of access to Jove space...

Janelle Solette
Posted - 2011.02.09 07:46:00 - [929]
 

Originally by: Veriasse Valence
I've never heard of this piece of information. Do you have a link for that? It's pretty big and seems like a lot of people are unaware of it. And, as we know, the Enheduanni are not the only entity capable of creating cloned agents using advanced technology; the Sleepers can as well, and likely the Jove too.

I don't have the link to the "this is not the Enheduanni"stuff (though it might be in the vid here; to be honest, I skipped a lot). A hint? Long, long ago...

Telepathy; how is she doing it?

About two thirds through that video, he brings it up. To quote Tony: "This is science fiction." Meaning there is a scientific answer. He also flat out says, "The clues are all over the site". There's also some wonderful insight on how he views speculation, and giving answers. In short? Speculation is good for the IP. The second everyone knows what's going on, that's when people leave the game. A fascinating point, I might add.

On another note, there are taboos against cloning the flesh of Amarrian Heirs. Why is that? As has been stated, Jamyl was only cloned once; look what happened. YARRRR!!

Lancashirian
Posted - 2011.02.09 20:07:00 - [930]
 

I would assume the taboo against cloning the Amarr heirs has something to do with "purity." For example, a lot of the royalty in the past have been kept "pure" through incestuous means. This may also be true of the Amarr.

The other possibility is that the heir's body could be hijacked or mind altered, and the Amarrian know this. If someone hijacks an heir, who is in control of the Empire?


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