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Veryez
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:42:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran

Like I have said previously; some people like to speculate and make up their own explanation and story based on personal preference while disregarding clues and supportive evidence. I have no hard feelings regarding that as it provide me with thoughts to play with. But it is very unlikely to provide a satisfying, well supported and meaningful explanation. EDIT: And an explanation the CCP Storyline Team will react upon.

I assure you, that is not the way I operate. I take the investigator approach and to my surprise this mystery might not be as difficult to unravel as I initially assumed. Though, being true to the investigation, I will provide no conclusions at the current stage, only the clues I have found.


I believe you need to look at the evidence as well as the lack of evidence to solve this puzzle. Things that are missing and/or out of place are just as telling as the things that are there. And I believe that we need to put our ideas/questions in a common forum, since it is doubtful that anyone of us could possible find all the answers we need by ourselves.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.07.18 16:28:00 - [392]
 

Originally by: Veryez
I believe you need to look at the evidence as well as the lack of evidence to solve this puzzle. Things that are missing and/or out of place are just as telling as the things that are there.


I cannot agree to that. Or we are back at saying that guessing an explanation is as valid as an explanation with well supported evidence and facts. Because anything can be labeled as missing, meaning any story goes.

I will put my faith in finding an answer in the things that are there and can be verified.

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2010.07.18 16:44:00 - [393]
 

I think it goes some thing like "The absence of proof is not the proof of absence".


Of course there is a third way to read Extinction Burst but then CCP are the scientists and we the animals running around their maze.

Veryez
Posted - 2010.07.18 17:42:00 - [394]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran

I cannot agree to that. Or we are back at saying that guessing an explanation is as valid as an explanation with well supported evidence and facts. Because anything can be labeled as missing, meaning any story goes.

I will put my faith in finding an answer in the things that are there and can be verified.


No, that is not what I mean. For example look at the names on the anomolies, Class 1 and 2 are "perimeter ambush" and "perimeter checkpoint" while class 5 and 6 are "Core Garrison" and "Core Bastion", implying that class 6 is closer to the sleeper starting point than class 1, yet we find non-military structures mixed in with all class sites, including an enclave in a class 2 site. If they were fighting a war against another entity, you would hardly expect non-military assets to be brought to the front lines. Think of our own wars, do we place our industrial assets toward the front or toward the rear? Therefore the placement of non-military assets suggests that the sleepers we're not 'attacking' another group in the conventional way, even though their battleships show signs of conflict. That is what I mean by looking at things that are out of place and or missing. Things that should be there that aren't or things that shouldn't be there that are.

Another example, the "quarantine area" contains 100% Talocan structures, and the medical enclave has different "quarantine" levels. Even though nobody has found a direct link, it is safe to conclude that the quarantine is directly related to their interaction with the Talocans. We know the sleepers were studying the Talocans, and based on their area of expertise, one would assume the sleepers were looking at the Talocan's knowledge of travel and gates. This ties in with what we collect from the sleeper drones. Whether the sleepers were trying to get out of wh space, or trying to get to terra isn't clear atm, perhaps both. It would fit in with the quote about the achient race that placed the isogen 5 stores around eve. But to prove that we would have to product a tie that the sleepers were in touch with whatever/whoever placed the isogen 5 in K space (which would appear to be rogue drones, since nobody else has been known to be able to collect it).

So no, I don't believe everything can be proven with verifiable "in game" facts, some parts of the puzzle must be deduced and/or extrapolated from what we can find. I agree that wild guesses aren't the answer, but I doubt CCP has placed all the answers where we can find them, and certainly not where one person can find them.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.07.18 19:11:00 - [395]
 

Thanks for clarification and I agree on the points you are making.

Regarding Isogen-5: I managed to find a "Strange Energy Readings" cosmic anomaly site today which I had suspected to provide a clue to that. I had spotted the warp in message from Pottsey to be:
Originally by: Strange Energy Readings
The radiation levels of this site are high but within tolerable limits. Wavelength readouts suggest a large cache of a powerful isotope was once housed here, but no solid traces remain. The level of radiant antimatter can only be explained by an immense--and recent--matter displacement. By the way, incoming hostiles.

This is obviously a previously Isogen-5 storage site, because what else could it meaningfully be?

And no before you ask, there is no shattered planet in the system. From a In Character point of view: The Isogen-5 storage depots does not necessarily have to have been wrecking as much damage in w-space as they did in k-space due to better placement and control from the Sleepers side. From an Out of Character view: It was likely decided not to limit this site to only certain systems as, from a game point of view, its primary goal is to provide Sleeper components and salvage and not to act like a rare mystery puzzle piece. Further, having shattered planets all over the place would have been bad for Planetary Interaction.

Both the Sleepers, Talocans, Joves, properly also the Yan Jungs and others could have been behind those Isogen-5 storages, but the only one of those with "physical" evidence pointing towards them are the Sleepers, as it is their buildings we find at the before mentioned cosmic anomaly site. Further, it is blatantly obvious the Sleepers knew a thing or two about drone technology.

Veryez
Posted - 2010.07.18 20:32:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Thanks for clarification and I agree on the points you are making.

Regarding Isogen-5: I managed to find a "Strange Energy Readings" cosmic anomaly site today which I had suspected to provide a clue to that. I had spotted the warp in message from Pottsey to be:
Originally by: Strange Energy Readings
The radiation levels of this site are high but within tolerable limits. Wavelength readouts suggest a large cache of a powerful isotope was once housed here, but no solid traces remain. The level of radiant antimatter can only be explained by an immense--and recent--matter displacement. By the way, incoming hostiles.

This is obviously a previously Isogen-5 storage site, because what else could it meaningfully be?

And no before you ask, there is no shattered planet in the system. From a In Character point of view: The Isogen-5 storage depots does not necessarily have to have been wrecking as much damage in w-space as they did in k-space due to better placement and control from the Sleepers side. From an Out of Character view: It was likely decided not to limit this site to only certain systems as, from a game point of view, its primary goal is to provide Sleeper components and salvage and not to act like a rare mystery puzzle piece. Further, having shattered planets all over the place would have been bad for Planetary Interaction.

Both the Sleepers, Talocans, Joves, properly also the Yan Jungs and others could have been behind those Isogen-5 storages, but the only one of those with "physical" evidence pointing towards them are the Sleepers, as it is their buildings we find at the before mentioned cosmic anomaly site. Further, it is blatantly obvious the Sleepers knew a thing or two about drone technology.


Yes, very good points, remember too that the isogen 5 used to power Jamyl's super weapon was found in the wreckage of the eve gate, in a wasteland of terran vessels. Something else I have not been able to put together, in "The End of The World, We Humans", the Thukker captain is able to do something I have never heard of before, communicate with rogue drones, something the SOE captain could not do. If he was truly acting alone and figured this out by himself, then the opening of wh space was an accident, i.e. the materials were in place, but the time to detonate the isogen 5 wasn't part of a planned sequence. Would "the ancient race which had placed them there possessed not only a vision beyond the grasp of today's science, but also the technological advancement necessary to realize its potential" have left this to chance? It seems very unlikely, yet I can find no indication that the Thukker captain wasn't acting alone, and have read the story many times. I believe there is more to this than meets the eye, but I can't see it.

Ealthor
Amarr
Veyr
The Veyr Collective
Posted - 2010.07.19 07:05:00 - [397]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Originally by: Strange Energy Readings
The radiation levels of this site are high but within tolerable limits. Wavelength readouts suggest a large cache of a powerful isotope was once housed here, but no solid traces remain. The level of radiant antimatter can only be explained by an immense--and recent--matter displacement. By the way, incoming hostiles.

This is obviously a previously Isogen-5 storage site, because what else could it meaningfully be?

And no before you ask, there is no shattered planet in the system. From a In Character point of view: The Isogen-5 storage depots does not necessarily have to have been wrecking as much damage in w-space as they did in k-space due to better placement and control from the Sleepers side. From an Out of Character view: It was likely decided not to limit this site to only certain systems as, from a game point of view, its primary goal is to provide Sleeper components and salvage and not to act like a rare mystery puzzle piece. Further, having shattered planets all over the place would have been bad for Planetary Interaction.


I'd suggest that the reason there is no shattered planet in the system is because of the 'immense--and recent--matter displacement'. I'm assuming that effectively means 'teleportation'.

I read that as being the origional home of an Isogen-5 cache, but all the Isogen-5 was 'matter displaced', moved in space, to somewhere else (I'd assume to somewhere in K-Space that subsequently got blowed up).

If this is correct and the caches were moved into place just before they blew up then we know that the whole thing is probably intentional (small possibility that they must matter transferred them as an emergency proceedure when they was that they might blow up).

But I'm not entirely sure why the one cache we know about (from crons) was apparently harvested in location by rogue drones. It may be that this one was left in K-Space alone as a bait/trigger and the other stores were moved into position only when the plan was coming close to fruition.

Sempress Kaye
Posted - 2010.07.19 09:13:00 - [398]
 

Without straying off topic, one thing about Sleepers makes me wonder...
Why do they lack shields?
Or at least some of them?
Admittedly I havent seen many Sleepers yet, but those I encountered seem to lack these.

Anyone?

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2010.07.19 09:51:00 - [399]
 

If I remember correctly but I could not be
One of the CCP guys or girls said all sleeper buildings were Talocan.
The drones that were at the isogen depot were actively harvesting the stuff from the sun

I agree W-space is one big war zone. Every perimeter, frontier and core site refer to war related things. A lot of the site descriptions mention something about stuff being still alive. My theory is that the war is all but over.

The fact that Sleepers and Talocan are two different things I dont see proof for. That they are the same actually has logic to it. Anyone? Question

Also the fact that Sleepers made the Sleeper drones is, as far as I am concerned, neither proven. And for the moment I am assuming they are not.

Sempress : Good question.

Sempress Kaye
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:17:00 - [400]
 

Edited by: Sempress Kaye on 19/07/2010 10:26:53
Originally by: Auwnie Morohe

Sempress : Good question.

Without getting in over my head here, this struck me as odd pretty quickly ever since i've met my first Sleeper.

So many debates about backgrounds, mysteries and such, but no one ever seems to have adressed this obvious oddity.

From my point of view our "current" ships all require shields of some sort, if only - in my theory - to protect the ships hull integrity or whatnot.

How come Sleeper ships do not require them?
Is their hull technology so advanced that shields are no more than a unneccesary source of power?

Maybe I'm giving this too much importance, but I am interested why they are as strong as they are and 'settle' for 'just' armor and structural defenses.
It might have zero to do with the Sleeper background, but it definately deserves some insight.

EDIT: reviewed and redid wording.

Syuveil
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:29:00 - [401]
 

Edited by: Syuveil on 19/07/2010 10:37:27
i think they don't have shields because they have some advanced fullerene armor, supposedly one of the most durable materials in the universe, plus they have the ability to rep that armor... putting shields on top of that seems kind of redundant...

just like you don't (or at least shouldn't) put both armor and shield tank on the same ship, the sleepers went a bit further this way, completely eliminating the other tank, saving both resources and ships energy usage... especially the energy usage, which would be very important concern when designing something that should still be around after thousands of years...

Ivvor
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:01:00 - [402]
 

I should think that at a certain technological level the distinction between shield and armor probably breaks down.

Having said that, the Sleeper drones lack of shielding may simply be due to the fact that ancient Terran technology includes a rather nasty weapon that turns a ship's shields against itself. The Minmatar Elder fleet discovered this to their (substantial) cost when faced with Jamyl Sarum's Isogen-5 powered, Terran super-weapon.

Sempress Kaye
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:08:00 - [403]
 

Originally by: Ivvor

Having said that, the Sleeper drones lack of shielding may simply be due to the fact that ancient Terran technology includes a rather nasty weapon that turns a ship's shields against itself.



THIS is exactly what crossed my mind when typing my reply one post earlier.
Doesn't that set you to thinking tho, that they might have set up such a defense versus Terran specific weaponry...Question

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:44:00 - [404]
 

I thought it was a good question because I had simply not thought about it at all myself even though I had known about it for one and a half years. It is just the kind of oddity that could mean something. But to get a very likely explanation two posts later. Very nice one.

If it is the reason then we know whoever supplied Jamyl with the super weapon most likely is an enemy of whoever created the Sleeper drones. Which fits in perfectly with my current theory.

This thing is coming together exponentially. If only we could figure out what Oruze means?Very Happy

Sempress Kaye
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:53:00 - [405]
 

Edited by: Sempress Kaye on 19/07/2010 12:38:34
Wonderful right?
How a forum observer with ample interest in Sleepers can ask a simple yet obvious question and might possibly open a new insight in existing theories ;)

Keep the theories coming, it's al a wonderful read.

EDIT: wording and completion.

Ivvor
Posted - 2010.07.19 14:13:00 - [406]
 

Originally by: Auwnie Morohe
If only we could figure out what Oruze means?Very Happy


It means 'String.'

My assumption is it relates somehow to String Theory, which depending on which brand of hard sci-fi you are a fan of, tends to feature heavily in many stories involving wormholes and other interesting things involving space/time distortion. On this basis I would guess the Oruze related sites are somehow involved in the creation and/or maintenance of wormholes.

Sempress Kaye
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:15:00 - [407]
 

Edited by: Sempress Kaye on 19/07/2010 15:15:14
Originally by: Ivvor
Originally by: Auwnie Morohe
If only we could figure out what Oruze means?Very Happy


It means 'String.'


What, might I ask, is your source to state this so factually?

Veryez
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:40:00 - [408]
 

I am lead to believe that the sleepers learned of the use of isogen 5 from their study of the Talocans:

Talocan Disruption Tower
The Talocan disruption tower is the most mysterious of the Talocan structures. Although certainly a part of the Talocan station, its hinges and propulsion systems imply ready removal from stations, but the peaks and points are unlike any current weapon grouping or turret structure. The tower appears as more of a mechanical syringe than a defense turret, but that may be just speculation. Regardless of the theories, the disruption tower is an unsettling relic of the Talocans.

And they would store it here:

Talocan Extraction Silo
This towering structure contains all the basic elements of a regular silo: cavernous storage areas, thick walls, extensive ventilation, etc. Based on the scans of this silo, however, the silo’s previous contents are unknown. The residue from inside reveals nothing known in modern times, or even odd genetic combinations. Whatever its contents, the silo emits an unfamiliar – and uneasy – presence.

I don't think fullerene gas (the other possibility in wh space) would be listed as an unknown material. It would be especially helpful if someone could tie Isogen 5 to the Talocan gates:

Talocan Static Gate
This standing structure shares many similar aspects with modern acceleration gates. Whispers among Talocan lore-keepers tell of the Talocan’s firm grasp of astronautical engineering, and this gate may offer some insight into this ancient race’s knowledge.

DmD666
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.07.19 16:26:00 - [409]
 

Edited by: DmD666 on 19/07/2010 16:27:02
Originally by: Veryez

Talocan Extraction Silo
This towering structure contains all the basic elements of a regular silo: cavernous storage areas, thick walls, extensive ventilation, etc. Based on the scans of this silo, however, the silo’s previous contents are unknown. The residue from inside reveals nothing known in modern times, or even odd genetic combinations. Whatever its contents, the silo emits an unfamiliar – and uneasy – presence.



In one of the sleeper sites, theres a chain of structures connected that goes like this. Reeducation/prison -> Storage coupling thing -> Talocan Extraction Silo.

All three structures have that "uneasy" description. The storage coupling once (possibly) held instruments of torture/punishment from the description. My idea was that the Talocans were putting people in prison and then like sucking out their delicious goo for science or something as punishment. This also explains those "odd genetic combinations"

Exen Treuer
Posted - 2010.07.19 22:17:00 - [410]
 

Is there a possibility, as has been mentioned earlier, that the Sleepers may be directly controlling at least some drones?

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but it would seem odd that some have prefixes such as "Awakened"

Why would a drone need to be awoken? The others would fit the drone category pretty well. "Emergent" and "Sleepless" etc.

Saul Dhampir
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.07.19 22:41:00 - [411]
 

With regards to the lack of Sleeper shields two things come to mind. One is the idea of a tech wall (thank you Mr Banks). IE that differing societies go up a tech wall as opposed to a ladder. There are many ways to the top and cultures may discover widely differing tech along the way. In this scenario the Sleeper simply may have not ever bothered inventing shields.

As mentioned above, the creation of weapons that use shields against there origin ship may have also been a factor. This idea is not unlike those found in Brin’s uplift. That people develop new weapons and defences and they are widely adopted, however as soon as a counter is created they drop out of fashion only to resurface in the future when the counter is forgotten.

I agree the later is more likely here, given that Terran Tech predates Sleeper.

DmD666
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.07.20 00:01:00 - [412]
 

Originally by: Saul Dhampir
With regards to the lack of Sleeper shields two things come to mind. One is the idea of a tech wall (thank you Mr Banks). IE that differing societies go up a tech wall as opposed to a ladder. There are many ways to the top and cultures may discover widely differing tech along the way. In this scenario the Sleeper simply may have not ever bothered inventing shields.

As mentioned above, the creation of weapons that use shields against there origin ship may have also been a factor. This idea is not unlike those found in Brin’s uplift. That people develop new weapons and defences and they are widely adopted, however as soon as a counter is created they drop out of fashion only to resurface in the future when the counter is forgotten.

I agree the later is more likely here, given that Terran Tech predates Sleeper.



I posted this a couple pages back I think, but sleepers are capable of using shields, they just choose not to. It's in one of the salvage pieces.

Lenasha
Posted - 2010.07.20 00:51:00 - [413]
 

Since the title of this thread talks about rogue drones and sleepers I figured this was as good a place to bring up a question I noticed about rogue drones and the change in direction I believe CCP has decided to go with them.

When Rogue Drones first showed up they were introduced as Gallente AI gone berserk. If I remember right the graphics showed this out as the drones were versions of gallente drones mutated slightly. However a little while back they made some changes to the drones and now you actually have 2 separate types of rogue drones. The original still show up in missions and the fact that all BS sized drones are based off of Dominix hulls. And the new alien looking drones (it has been suggested by dev's that these drones might have some connection to sleepers)

I'm I getting this right?

Saul Dhampir
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.07.20 01:16:00 - [414]
 

Your quote is here...

Originally by: DmD666
Edited by: DmD666 on 02/07/2010 18:53:32
edit: Found it - defensive control node: "The Sleeper defensive systems were so modular that, even though this particular node was designed to coordinate armor-repairing nanoassemblers, it could just as easily be reconfigured for shield defense."


I have to say though that there are two ways of interpreting that:

1. it could just as easily be reconfigured for shield defense (by the Sleepers).

2. it could just as easily be reconfigured for shield defense (by you when reverse enginerring the technology).

Personaly I took it as the second meaning.

Sariton Xavian
Posted - 2010.07.20 01:25:00 - [415]
 

Hmm, the no shields, and the Terran super weapon that uses shields against the victim is a very interesting link.

Also makes me wonder about the whole "at war" nature of the setups in W-space and the relationship of Talocans and Sleepers question. With Talocan stuff spread throughout the variously established parts of "Sleeper" space, that suggests to me that they weren't at war with each other. Combined with the above observation, maybe the Sleepers were at war with the Terrans.

vym1337
Posted - 2010.07.20 02:47:00 - [416]
 

Resistance is futile. We will add your biological distinctness to our own. Lower your shields and surrender.

-\/-

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.07.20 05:14:00 - [417]
 

Here's a question: why would the Terrans even bring a shield-imploding superweapon to New Eden in a freighter so heavily armored that the contents were more or less intact to begin with? Was the closure of the New Eden gate a measure to escape the Terrans?

Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.20 09:43:00 - [418]
 

At this point it makes me wonder exactly how far are we from "advancing a story".

Have we already found all relevant pieces and is it now just a matter of reading the right parts and putting them together in the right way? If so, are we supposed to post whatever we figure out somewhere or would it be possible to actually act straight away?

Or maybe there are still pieces of (ingame) info that are "small" (i.e. some rare popup message or some rare item description), yet both crucial and unrevealed as of yet?

Or is there actually something obviously new to be found right away, like a whole w-space system / a yet-unseen site / a virtual reality / etc, or, say, some brand-new application method for some of the w-space related items/structures?

I ask since, as it has been already mentioned, we haven't traced a fair bit of pretty obviuos (from in-character POV) paths yet, but only because there does not seem to be a game mechanics in place.

Ivvor
Posted - 2010.07.20 10:23:00 - [419]
 

Originally by: Sempress Kaye
Edited by: Sempress Kaye on 19/07/2010 15:15:14
Originally by: Ivvor
Originally by: Auwnie Morohe
If only we could figure out what Oruze means?Very Happy


It means 'String.'


What, might I ask, is your source to state this so factually?


A few people linked to the definition a while ago (just Google the term). I thought I recalled Dropbear linking to it also a while ago and in another thread, but I couldn't find the reference so maybe I'm wrong.

Originally I thought it might refer to a string of structures linked together, but then the String Theory idea popped up and seemed like potentially a good fit.

Ivvor
Posted - 2010.07.20 10:38:00 - [420]
 

Originally by: Vadimik
At this point it makes me wonder exactly how far are we from "advancing a story".



Very much wondering this myself. Dropbear has been quiet of late. I don't know if that means we are thinking along the right lines, he despairs at how completely wrong we all are, or something is about to happen in-game that will render our speculations completely moot.

I continue to look out for things that others might ignore in W-space, but I'm rapidly running out of ideas. One of the static WH exits in the system I'm currently in did do something mildly interesting (which I can't comment on for security reasons) when it respawned today that gave me a brief WTH moment, but it could just be a fluke with no deeper significance.


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