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Gerard Deneth
Caldari
Pavlov Labs GmBH
Independent Faction
Posted - 2010.07.13 09:42:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: Ivvor
Regarding the Bright Star. I was under the impression (I read a convincing argument somewhere) that that was the Terran end of the Eve wormhole collapsing/detonating with the light from that event only now reaching us.



The only flaw with that is that the bright star winked in and out of existence simultaneously across the cluster. If it was just a lightspeed signal, then it should have winked on and off in sequence across the cluster, from wherever was closest to wherever was farthest away. Star systems are spread apart by years, so it should have been an event that would have rippled across, not "poofed" in and out of being simultaneously.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.13 10:17:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: DmD666
Originally by: Terokone
Originally by: Veryez
After re-reading the details of the Seyllin Incident, I noticed this curious phrase:

"The star's entire magnetic field had re-aligned towards the explosion"

Additionally the Line from the Curse region description:

"Stars bent to our will,Our reach was infinite,Our power incontestable"

*snip*



Since you mentioned the magnetic field of a star and the Seyllin Incident, a mysterious shuttle was found in the Geztic system not long ago. The shuttle is able to be fired upon, but it's virtually invincible. The only thing I didn't do to the shuttle is use ECM against it. It's a Caldari shuttle with the overview title of "None", which basically means "Nothing to see here. Move along."
The description of the shuttle is:
The only thing sensors can make out about this ship is that it has some kind of receiver that interacts with the star’s natural magnetic field. There is one faint life sign, similar to a human in cryogenic stasis.

The only reason why I mention that shuttle here is the fact that the star the shuttle is at is an A0 star, same as all the stars in the Seyllin Incident with the exception of the star in Jovian space... well, CCP space, really.

Either someone's monitoring this star with something onboard a shuttle possibly linked to cryostasis controls and a sleeper agent (so to speak), or something bigger is at work here.


We just tried everything. Webbed, scrammed, ECM'd, and shot at it with all damage types. I even tried talking to it in local. Nothing.

Aside from shooting and sweet-talking, did anyone think to Hack, Analyze, Salvage, Ship or Cargo scan it?

I've tried Cargo and Ship scans with no results, aside from registering 625 GJ of capacitor.

Ivvor
Posted - 2010.07.13 12:24:00 - [333]
 

Regarding the number of W-space systems. There are 2498 according to the static data dump. If you happen to try plotting a map of W-space using the coordinates in the data dump you get a giant spiral pattern with the lower class systems nearer the center and the class 6 region bunched up right at the end. As those coordinates aren't accessible in-game I don't think it's worth drawing too many conclusions based on that layout.

Perhaps more interesting are the locus signatures of the W-space systems. They range from J100001 to J235953 and are not spread out in any obvious pattern that I could easily detect. For those who track the locus signatures of interconnected systems it may be worth keeping an eye out for any kind of mathematical relationship between those signatures. My hunch is those signatures are not random.

Genki SG
Scapegoats
Posted - 2010.07.13 14:16:00 - [334]
 

so its 2498 WH systems in the datadump, and wiki says 2499 WH systems... now that is still 1 missing system
with k-space(not including the 3 regions we can't access with their 230 systems) that would make 5201+2499=7700 systems, which would be a good round number. Though i somehow only count 5200 k-space systems Shocked

anyway... i think this 1 elusive w-space system is the key

Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.13 14:29:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Gerard Deneth
The only flaw with that is that the bright star winked in and out of existence simultaneously across the cluster. If it was just a lightspeed signal, then it should have winked on and off in sequence across the cluster, from wherever was closest to wherever was farthest away. Star systems are spread apart by years, so it should have been an event that would have rippled across, not "poofed" in and out of being simultaneously.


Actually, you should read the actual news articles from the Bright Star event:

Article 1
Article 2
Article 3

You'll notice that at least one researcher from a renowned school specifically posits the Bright Star event as being related to the EVE gate collapse...citing the influence of tachyons, which, moving faster than light, could theoretically hit all systems at roughly the same time.

What I think is most fascinating, however, is a little quote from the last article:

Originally by: Article 3
It is even postulated that the simultaneous appearance and disappearance of the object from the night skies of all worlds across the Federation might indicate the existence of a network of micro-wormholes, which could perhaps be exploited and expanded to initiate a new form of long-distance interstellar travel.


Interesting...March of '08 and CCP was already preparing for Apocrypha, a full year before its eventual release.

Aynen
Posted - 2010.07.13 16:30:00 - [336]
 

Another phenomenon that I've been pondering about in connection to the simultaniously appearing bright star over great distances is the partical entanglement we see in Isogen 5, which has been used in recent history to open wormholes. Imagine light particles themselves being entangled on a quantum level, to name an example of simultanious light over great distances. My knowlage of how techions work is limited, but I'd also like to know if isogen 5 explosions release techion radiation. The explosions that recently opened the wormhole network must have been very small compared to the one that affected the EVE gate (if that was indeed the case) so the amount of techion radiation (if such an explosion emits such radiation) would have been galactic in proportion aswell.

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:15:00 - [337]
 

Because we can speculate almost forever as to how the various 'ancient' races relate to each other I'm going to try to separate some of the theory...

I'll begin with two parties at war, the first party is defeated by the second but there is no intention by the second party to commit genocide against the first.

The resurgence of the first party cannot be allowed however so the second party places the first in an oubliette, locks them away where they can be forgotten and where (hopefully) they would wither and die (Anoikis).

What strikes me about wormhole space in overview, is that it seems to be dominated by dead and dying stars. Of course even a black hole theoretically emits Hawking Radiation so it's not a death sentence to a race which is expert in and dependent on the exploitation of solar energy but it would certainly force them to ration their energy use.

I haven't gone through the static data dump, but how many stars there are young blues? stars which would be a source of Isogen-5?

Fast forward a little, the second party is at (stealthy) war with a third.
The third party is aware of the first party and works on the principle that the enemy of our enemy is our 'friend', the third party subverts existing assets outside (or at least ostensibly outside) the second party to assemble a key to the oubliette and Seylin's star goes pop.


To address a few comments and questions I've run across in the thread.

Seylin I was shattered by the detonation of its star.
There are several shattered planets in EVE.
Therefore all of these planets were shattered by the detonation of their stars.

This is a fallacy of the undisputed middle. The shattered planet in Jove space for example might well have been destroyed by a Jovian superweapon for example, others may have been destroyed long before Seylin...


Jove ships, or at least TomB's Eidelon, favour Shields and Lasers in the manner of the Sansha - their 8-8-8 slot layout allows a strong shield tank with lots of damage mods.


The Bright Star appeared simultaneously in every system in EVE. The distance across the cluster is significant - dotlan places it at a little over 105 lightyears north to south.
The Bright star must therefore have crossed 105 light years in a matter of hours (it was a quick patch as I recall) and therefore must have travelled at at least two hundred thousand times the speed of light. It was probably also visible in wormhole space (had such a thing existed at the time) and may have provided a much needed power boost to the occupants.
It would have been a pretty good signal to a bunch of prisoners that a prison break is imminent...

Otocinclus
Minmatar
Project Nemesis
Moar Tears
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:55:00 - [338]
 

The poster above suggested that the Bright Star would have been visible in W-Space, and that it might have provided a boost in power to the occupants.

Is it possible that the Jove intentionally created the Bright Star phenomenon with the intention of "powering up" the sleepers, and that this is when their drones became active? Perhaps it has been the intention of the Jove to release the Sleepers from Anoikis, only that something has gone wrong. Perhaps nothing has gone wrong, and we just haven't seen the culmination of their plan.

khazak mokl
Amarr
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:59:00 - [339]
 

Edited by: khazak mokl on 13/07/2010 19:59:59
On a different note, we came across a system with the locus J1259+0 which is as far as I know the only one that has a symbol in its name and not 6 numbers.
Its occupied and nothing special anom wise but looked like it has a static C5 and a static null.
Do you think there is any special reason for its weird locus sig?
Think the corps in there was called 'corporation des sages' and one of the others was 'talion federal navy'

Otocinclus
Minmatar
Project Nemesis
Moar Tears
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:04:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: khazak mokl
Edited by: khazak mokl on 13/07/2010 19:59:59
On a different note, we came across a system with the locus J1259+0 which is as far as I know the only one that has a symbol in its name and not 6 numbers.
Its occupied and nothing special anom wise but looked like it has a static C5 and a static null.
Do you think there is any special reason for its weird locus sig?
Think the corps in there was called 'corporation des sages' and one of the others was 'talion federal navy'


That system is already registered in the Dotlan database, but that doesn't mean that there isn't anything unusual about it. However, it definitely isn't one of our missing wormhole systems.

Otocinclus
Minmatar
Project Nemesis
Moar Tears
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:17:00 - [341]
 

I'm going to hazard a guess that for whatever reason, the Sleepers were locked up in Anoikis long before the creation of the Empires. The Eve Gate might have been used for this, which could explain the loss of the link back to the Milky Way. The Sleepers, which were hoped to have died in Anoikis, managed to survive by using the new resources availible to them there (fullurenes, solar energy, etc.) They built these massive databases, and stored their collective consciousness there. It's possible that they might have even stored their consciousness within the Drones.

The apparently highly advanced Jump-drive technology found within sleeper wrecks, combined with the Sleeper drone in the SOE arc that was traveling by creating spatial rifts, leads me to believe that they found a way to escape the wormholes, but weren't able to create stable links to the outside world. This may be why they created the Rogue drones, as they could be programmed to gather up the Isogen-5 required to blast open a link to Anoikis, thereby allowing the sleepers to escape. Perhaps it was the talocan who originally imprisoned the Sleepers, and the Sleepers are scavenging off of their leftover technology?

Aynen
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:27:00 - [342]
 

Another thought just came to mind...
What if the sleepers are the Jove who went into stasis combined with digital life to escape the Jovian decease, leaving drones to guard them, then the Jove who where left behind found a cure much later but have decreased in numbers so much that they cannot overtake the sleeper drones and cannot free their bretheren? They'd need to open wormholes from Anoikis to the known empires to get the capsuleers to take down the sleeper drones for them so they can move in and un-digitize their bretheren so they can be cured.

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2010.07.13 22:22:00 - [343]
 

It's important to remember that the Jovian Disease is not like a dose of influenza. It is a genetic instability and causes symptoms which seem to be entirely psychological.

Obviously I don't know as much about genetics as the Jove did (or even as much as they still do) but that suggests to me that it is more like a congenital deformity than an infection, passed to the next generation rather than by contact.
By extension that suggests that it is not a viable biological weapon and nor is it something you can catch, it is simply ticking away in your genetic code like a depressive time bomb.

It is also worth bearing in mind that the Jovian Disease is not (according to those sources we have available) transmissible outside the Jovian race and therefore cannot be the Kyonoke Pit "virus".

Nybbas
Guiding Hand Social Club
Dystopia Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.13 22:48:00 - [344]
 

Edited by: Nybbas on 13/07/2010 22:48:55
Originally by: Jacob Holland
It is also worth bearing in mind that the Jovian Disease is not (according to those sources we have available) transmissible outside the Jovian race and therefore cannot be the Kyonoke Pit "virus".

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=23-10-06
Quote:
He sat there stunned as the AI told him he had somewhere between six and eighteen standard months to live. It was nothing they could prevent; at some point the brain would simply stop sending the commands for lungs to inflate and heart to contract. His mind would decide it was time to stop.

Oh really? ;)

Ivvor
Posted - 2010.07.13 23:30:00 - [345]
 

Regarding unusual locus signatures. I have found three in the database:

J1340+6
J1259+0
J1226-0

Very odd.

DmD666
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.07.14 01:15:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Ivvor
Regarding unusual locus signatures. I have found three in the database:

J1340+6
J1259+0
J1226-0

Very odd.



I've been to +6, didn't notice anything special.

Terokone
Posted - 2010.07.14 02:48:00 - [347]
 

The appearance of symbols in the locus signatures does seem to suggest a mathematical concept. Then I looked up the definition of locus because I was curious.
1. a place; locality.
2. a center or source, as of activities or power: locus of control.
3. Mathematics. the set of all points, lines, or surfaces that satisfy a given requirement.
4. Genetics. the chromosomal position of a gene as determined by its linear order relative to the other genes on that chromosome.

I'm not sure how the wormhole systems were labeled, be it by empire forces, or by Sleeper/Talocan information that was taken, or even by the Jove. Arguments can be made that it could be any one of them, and it would all match up.
The empires would label the systems by determining their location to a set of specific stars, determining a locus.
Talocan would have possibly labeled the systems by hyper-euclidian means, determining a locus using mathematics.
The Jove could have labeled the systems most likely by star position similar to the genetics definition.
Sleepers... this is the one where I'll have to stretch the definition. Data stream lag time between two stars with Sleeper structures.

And yes, I am collecting locus signatures from surrounding wormholes to try and determine a pattern. Oddly, I started by trying to find a mathematical pattern.

The next part is going to be chaotic since my mind is running on overdrive about all this, trying to... brainstorm.

I realized last night while running some sites in my C5 that Talocan have a much greater presence in Sleeper space than I thought. The sites like Core Garrison and Core Stronghold lead me to think that the Talocan were more militaristic, along with being nomadic. The quarantine sites are seemingly the only anomaly.
I want to point something else out. Quarantine does not specifically mean to contain disease. It could also mean social, political, or economical isolation to enforce sanctions against a foreign state. And yes, I understand the biohazard symbol is on the pop up.

The Sleeper sites all seem to have something to do with data/computer terms: recursive, solar cell, Oruze (data stream emitted from certain structures), Mirror.

Then I noticed that the Talocan Static Gates were connected to structures. This could simply be to provide power, but it could have been a way to transport people, rather than ships, long distances, like some sort of mass driver (for lack of a better word).

Now, questions I'd like to know. What do we think/know the Jove and Nation have to do with all this other than Nation being able to control wormholes? Does Nation have any bearing on the Sleeper story?

The reason I ask is because I have a(nother) theory. Nation can control wormholes. Sleepers are an upload society. Nation has been harvesting people. Nation has apparently taken a Jove station. Nation has a large fleet sitting outside that station. Nation can easily convert the harvested people into slaves. Can Nation use Jove technology to download Sleepers into the harvested people and control them using implants to fly those fleet ships, or even worse, upgrade those ships by melding Sleeper and Jove technology, including capsule and clone tech?

Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2010.07.14 03:32:00 - [348]
 

Edited by: Veriasse Valence on 14/07/2010 03:36:27
I think the simplest (Occam's razor ftw) explanation to Sansha is also the likeliest. They have been co-opted by the Enheduanni. They battle the Jove for them, using a combination of Sansha boots on the ground and the high tech wormhole and implant goodies of their puppetmasters. Perhaps Sansha Kuvakei was a Sleeper agent in the first place. The posts concerning True Plague certainly seem to indicate a significantly higher level of tech than would be expected, especially for such a supposedly old prototype True Citizen/Slave (Plague?).

They could also be used to interface with Sleepers, be it either to hijack and take over their remnants or to be bodies for the Sleepers seemingly stored in the enclaves.

That said, I am inclined to believe that the Sleepers are tied to the modern Jovians, through either the 1st or 2nd empire. Most clues indicate the Jove of today are much more intimately connected to the Sleepers than they are letting on.

Edit: I admit I have a theory brewing in my head about the Jove coopting Sansha and using them to rebuild their race at the expense of the rest of New Eden. If the Sleepers are indeed infected or ancient Jove, then the Sansha are also excellent.. containers.. to be downloaded into if you were able to break that strange mind control link... unless of course they didn't want to break it. Perhaps the Jove are set to move in a different direction than we ever suspected?

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.14 06:18:00 - [349]
 

Wasn't the Bright Star a bug not a main part of the story. CCP wrote a mini bit of a story to go with the bug. Which was a nice idea but I do not think the star is anything to do with the main storyline. It was just an unexpected bug CCP found and fixed.

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2010.07.14 07:48:00 - [350]
 

As I recall it was more an unintended release than a bug in the usual sense. I seem to remember the news item/dev blog saying that it hadn't been supposed to be there yet.

The bright star was in a consistent location across the cluster, it was an unusual shape (which suggests that it wasn't just a sky box point which had its luminosity decimal point moved). That doesn't seem to fit the profile of a classic bug - but, of course, only CCP know for sure Smile

Kendar
Gallente
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.14 08:04:00 - [351]
 

Could it be that a group of jovians decided the only way to survive the plague was to go into a kind of cryostasis and transfer their minds or clone info into drones to continue the research? afaik the sleeperdrones mainpurpose is not to fight but something else..

Sempress Kaye
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:11:00 - [352]
 

CCP Dropbear, you've managed to spark my interest to a new high i've never had in EVE prior to this day.
Between my four accounts I've tried a multitude of things, but none involved diving into lore.
Not saying i don't care for it, but I simply was occupied in other fields to be focussed on anything plotwise.

This time round however, thoughts are going through my mind like: I need to dismantle my Lowsec PoS's and halt my productions and rally buddies to dive into the lore exploration in Wormhole space!"

The fact that its up to the playerbase to unravel the mysteries is a very nice approach.
Take the risk and see what you can discover.
Fabulous. Simply fabulous.

/puts on explorer hat and says nn to empire and lowsec space. Very Happy

Per Bastet
Amarr
B.O.O.M
Obsidian Mining Coalition
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:48:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 05/06/2010 10:43:10
"Consolidate all the data received from the Zephyr program, everything those oblivious capsuleers have given us on wormhole space."
Yah we spent tons of money and tricked those capsuleers in giving us info they would have given us for free. What makes them think we are oblivious to the Zephyr program. It's more likely we don't care, as we tend to share that type of info. Pod pilots already have 100% mapped out wormhole space. We have a designation for every known wormhole system, what type of stars and what's in the system, what class the system is, what type of sleepers are found in the system, what effects are in the system. There are massive shared data's base's between pod pilots so when we go into a new wormhole we can intently look up what to expect right down to the makeup and design and defence of each single sleeper site. All this info and more is shared.
So what is the point of the Zephyr program? To map out what we have already mapped out?

More to the point how do they know we are oblivious to the Zephyr program. Pod pilots have a habit of tweaking ships right down to rigs that are out of spec. Someone would have found the hidden sensors. But more likly we dont care as we share sensors info anyway.



Heres the Thing, has anyone actually taken apart the sensor suite on the Zephyrs? How do we know that there isn't another suite in the ship thats scanning for stuff we don't know about?

Razor Blue
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric
The Polaris Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.14 13:57:00 - [354]
 

Has anyone ever tried just podding themselves at The Mirror? I would test it out myself but i need to find class 6 wormhole.

The Vitrauze chronicle says:
Quote:
The Helios rested up against the structure. The enclave in the distance seemed quiet, bereft of life. This one, however, felt young even now. There was such beauty in this timeless design, even though time had claimed them all.

*snip*

Once again into the darkness, and for a moment she could almost feel that wind on her face, as the data that represented who she was failed to cross the river back home.

Quote:
Lianda watched the leaves falling into the stream, plucked from the limbs of the trees with such ease. The wind was so gentle she could barely feel it on her face and yet it took them all, softly caressing the branches into donating the remnants of life they once bore.

This is the part where Lianda Burreau apparently "dies", but bit later on in the chronicle she is still chitchatting with Hilen apparently in a virtual reality channel or something. And in the last part of the Anoikis chronicle it turns out that Lianda actually did have a clone.
It seems like the datastream of "her" was intercepted, captured or enchanced by the structure?

Also, i think i read somewhere that something similar happened to the Jamyl?
And isnt this sort of thing also Sansha specialty?

Guillieme Lohran
Posted - 2010.07.14 13:57:00 - [355]
 

Damn it CCP. As if I don't have enought to do with PI, mining, running sites, and defending my system. Now I have something more to keep me in w-space.

Any chance of planting a colony spawning some sort of info pop up?

Kryss Stevenson
Caldari
Red Stallion Mercantile and Manufacturing
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:03:00 - [356]
 

Some interesting things to think about, maybe means nothing, but you never know.

Enheduanni is the name given to them by the Jove as a description, which has no translation to our language. They are known to use self-assembling cybernetics in their sleeper agents. The do us light as a form of communication over long distances with the ability to both hit distant location at the same time and give different messages depending on the subject the message is intended for. All of this can be found in Theodicy.

Anoikis. Instead of looking at it as a term to describe cell death how about looking at it as a description also referring to the term “the state of being with out home”. If we end up looking at it that way then the entire meaning of Anoikis changes completely and it would also describe the Sleeper upload society.

Ivvor
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:56:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Razor Blue
Has anyone ever tried just podding themselves at The Mirror? I would test it out myself but i need to find class 6 wormhole.



I have to admit, I did consider trying this a few weeks ago as it's the only path I can still see to follow. The nature of and barrier between life and death seems to be a strong theme in this particular story.

However, my clones are expensive and I'm not sure I want to lose a clone, implants and a nice ship just on the off chance I might get a new pop-up. I'm in a class 6 at the moment though on a sightseeing tour so maybe I'll have a WTH moment and go goo myself anyway.

If you happen to find my frozen corpse, say hi.

Gumdrop
Posted - 2010.07.14 16:02:00 - [358]
 


Capsuleers = muggles
Jove = wizards
Tolocan = wizards
Sleepers = house elves
Rogue drones = centaurs
Concord = goblins

Super secret Tolocan system in the middle of WH space = hogwarts?


the only question remains who is Lord Voldemort?

Kryss Stevenson
Caldari
Red Stallion Mercantile and Manufacturing
Posted - 2010.07.14 16:55:00 - [359]
 

Enheduanni = Lord Voldemort

Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.14 16:56:00 - [360]
 

Edited by: Nathan Jameson on 14/07/2010 16:58:59
Originally by: Razor Blue
Has anyone ever tried just podding themselves at The Mirror? I would test it out myself but i need to find class 6 wormhole.



I'm actually trying to do this very thing, but I'm having trouble finding a C6 wormhole with a Mirror site in it. Does anyone know of one I can get to? I have a cheap alt scanning account I wouldn't mind podding once or twice or several dozen times to get results...


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