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Geldar Wroontik
Gallente
Galactic System Lords Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.03 00:22:00 - [271]
 

I know a lot of people really like the theory that the Sleepers are Jovian, either a self-exiled sect or the remains of one of the earlier Jovian Empires, but I can't buy it because of one line in "World On Fire":

Quote:
The planet of Seyllin I perished, as did dozens of other worlds—some in New Eden, and some that no person in recorded history would ever know about. The intentions of Antar and Kotan were irrelevant now, as the universe of their origin had changed so fundamentally that it would probably be unrecognizable to them. Neither man could have imagined that the consequences of their actions would be so widespread, or that evil could triumph so decidedly over the powers of good.

One of the great things about EVE is that there is almost no black and white in terms of morality - all of the four playable empires are shades of grey, not good or evil. The Jovians are, most likely, the same, but from all the lore I've seen of the Jovians they are as close as one can get to a side of good in the universe.

The Sleepers apparently planned a return to known space via these Isogen-5 superbombs, and they are a force of evil, as stated by the chronicle. So I don't see how they could be Jovians, because that wouldn't fit with the gray and grey morality that CCP have set up in EVE.

This is part of the reason why I still think they were contemporaries, and if you want to think about it another way, they could be the yin to the Jovians' yang.

All we know from Dropbear is that at least one of us have either got the whole story of the Sleepers, or have revealed part of it. We know nothing more, and I would love to know who managed to hit the nail.

Dropbear! Get your lazy rear in here now! Razz

Praxedes
Posted - 2010.07.03 01:48:00 - [272]
 

If they're evil, they could possibly still be Jovian.

I'm not the most privy to the whole of EVE lore, but:

Black Mountain, wasn't the Society of Conscious Thought run by Jovians, and they were behind the evil end of the spectrum then?

Also, aren't the Jove supposedly in a civil war or some such, with the other (evil) group being the Enheduanni?

Geldar Wroontik
Gallente
Galactic System Lords Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.03 03:10:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Praxedes
Also, aren't the Jove supposedly in a civil war or some such, with the other (evil) group being the Enheduanni?

It's my understanding from Theodicy that the Enheduanni are not Jovian, but they are indeed at war.

Of course I could be wrong. I don't know where else the Enheduanni are mentioned outright, beyond a few hints (such as the Empyrean Age novel).

Ankhu Anen
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:32:00 - [274]
 

What was the mention of them in the novel?

Geldar Wroontik
Gallente
Galactic System Lords Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:50:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Ankhu Anen
What was the mention of them in the novel?

It depends a bit on your interpretation, but when they're talking about Jamyl Sarum's clone data being edited in mid-air during the FTL transmission after her first death, Aulus says that intercepting subspace transmissions is impossible as there's no time to do so, and Marcus responds "Time, relative to what? Or whom?"

It's a bit of an oblique reference, but considering the penchant that the Enheduanni have for manipulating the empires, why not go for the leader (or leader-to-be at least) of one of them?

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:02:00 - [276]
 

Geldar Wroontik said "the same, but from all the lore I've seen of the Jovians they are as close as one can get to a side of good in the universe."
There are hints the Jove are very evil at least some groups. The description of the Jove and Minmatar elders are just about the same. It was the elders that destroyed the Concord base and started the great empire war. If they are the same like I believe as the name and description match then the that Jove group is very evil.

But I don't think it's fair to call any race good or Evil. The Jove and other race's are all made up of many groups and factions. Just like you cannot call the human race on earth today Evil or good you cannot really call the Jove either. humans come in a wide variety of groups ranging from evil, good and all the other possibilities.

Esiel
Renegade Serenity
Posted - 2010.07.04 03:44:00 - [277]
 

Edited by: Esiel on 04/07/2010 07:15:03
Originally by: Pottsey
The description of the Jove and Minmatar Elders are just about the same.

Um I am afraid I have seen very little that says the Elders are like the Jove. Elders don't have super advanced technology (they have some advanced tech but nothing like the Jove). Elders aren't suffering from a degenerative sickness. Elders are specifically linked to Minmatar while Jove are barely linked to anyone.

Originally by: Pottsey
But I don't think it's fair to call any race good or Evil. The Jove and other race's are all made up of many groups and factions. Just like you cannot call the human race on earth today Evil or good you cannot really call the Jove either. humans come in a wide variety of groups ranging from evil, good and all the other possibilities.


This part is all mixed up first we need to detangle your ideas on race. You are making the same mistake many people make when using the word race. I’m not sure where the phrase “human race” came from but it has a very different meaning than most uses of the word “race”. “Human race” refers to everyone it is inclusive of all people. “Race” alone is exclusive and differentiates one human from another. It uses skin color, geographic location, heredity or other factors to separate humans into categories.

Understanding the fact that the empires are much like nations we can see how someone might classify groups as good or evil – The N@zi's were evil, Allies were good. This distinction however is different from one perspective to another. There are those that think that the N@zi's were good. Also time makes a difference, the allies were good but now they have become evil according to some. So how do we define good and evil.

The best way to determine this is by a moral compass. Christians have a different view of evil from a Moslem or an atheist. Back to the original point, so saying someone is good or evil only shows people your views of morality. Disagreeing with that person is only saying your moral compass is different from the other persons, like opinions they are highly subjective and good and evil is only in the eye of the beholder.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.04 08:02:00 - [278]
 

Esiel said "I’m not sure where the phrase “human race” came from but it has a very different meaning than most uses of the word “race”
Generally speaking the idea is if you put a bunch of humans on different planets and leave them alone for 1000's or 10,000's of years they will evolve differently and although still be clearly human are all a different race with a different genetic profile and clear different traits. It's like on earth we have the human race. Split into the Caucasoid race, Congoid race, Capoid race, Mongoloid race & Australoid race. The simple answer is on the right you press the race's button and get a list of Eve race's.



Esiel said Disagreeing with that person is only saying your moral compass is different from the other persons, like opinions they are highly subjective and good and evil is only in the eye of the beholder."
I disagree at least for Eve as the scale is bigger. I did write a long post but decide to try again with a shorter version. The scale is so big we cannot really say one race is Evil or good. When we you talking about highly different populations on lots of planets made up of trillions of people you cannot or should not lump them all together as good or evil.

Can we call the Minmatar evil for starting a massive war and the first blow being people who had nothing to do with tem being slaves (Concord). But if we call them Evil what about the trillions on planets who know nothing about the actions? Perhaps you can define people like the Amarr as good or evil as although they are massive they all following similar life styles. But the Gallente are far to massive and varied with too many different life styles to be singled out as good or evil. At last in my mind. Take your N@zi example are large group of N@zi were not evil just solders trying to survive.

I do agree that good and evil is highly subjective and good and evil is only in the eye of the beholder. I am just trying to say the scales are a little too big to lump whole race's as good or evil. It's like trying to define the human race. Is the human race good or evil? The scale and amount of different humans is just too big to get a single answer. Now increase the size of the human race on earth x100 fold or more and spread them over planets. Add in more varity's and different types of people. Is the race good or evil, can you really define it as either?

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.04 08:09:00 - [279]
 

Esiel said "Um I am afraid I have seen very little that says the Elders are like the Jove. Elders don't have super advanced technology (they have some advanced tech but nothing like the Jove). Elders aren't suffering from a degenerative sickness. Elders are specifically linked to Minmatar while Jove are barely linked to anyone."
I am reading between the lines it's not hard fact. Jove elders do not appear to be suffering from a degenerative sickness or its more rare in them. "Elders can become many centuries old, it's uncertain exactly how old they can become, but some suggest they can outlive even members of the Amarrian royal families." suggesting they do not suffer or not suffer as badly as the rest of the Jove.

What little info we have on both match's. They have the same name, both are very reclusive with few people knowing what they look like or meeting one. They both appear to hold advance technology and live to many centuries old. Both where/are a prominent political force. My current theory is when the Jove Elders become very reclusive in Jove space they moved into Minmatar space and set them self's up as the Minmatar Elders for their own reasons. What better way to control a race for your own goals. It wouldn't surprise me either if the reasons the Elders got killed in Theodicy was due to the Enheduanni knowing who they really are. But that is wild guess work.

It's the type of thing the Jove would do and have the technology for. But I have no real evidence for this, just a gut feeling from reading between the lines and matching descriptions.

Have people consider now all Jove suffer from the degenerative sickness. The Jove are split into many groups like the Gallante. Like the Unsullied Jove they reject generic experiments and instead adopt conventional methods to deal with sickness and old age. They are advocates of cyber-implants and want to use machines instead of genes in the search for better life. Would they suffer from the genetic illness? Surly not all Jove groups would have suffered the same genetic problems. There must be some groups that rejected the genetic changes. Like on Earth today the Mormans and other groups wouldn't go along with genetic changes. Surly some Jove groups would be the same. I just find it hard to believe a group as big as the Jove used to be, split into many sub groups would not have some groups who rejected genetic engineering.

Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force
Posted - 2010.07.06 15:27:00 - [280]
 

Having recently stumbled on this thread the other day and being the lore junkie I am, it was one impressive read. Impressively long too. I came to an equally impressive realisation: this isn't lore at all. I hesitate to use the word story either, story implies a speaker (of sorts, be it a person, book or other medium) telling the story and a listner being told the story. In EVE we're told next to nothing, except some background story to point us in the right direction. This is more closely related to Augmented Reality Games (I believe is the phrase), those that followed Portal 2's announcement will know what I mean; with the radio transmissions and what-not. Which makes it all the more fanscinating.

Anyways, I don't have much to actually offer to the table not being a W-Spacer. But it's certainly something I may look into in the future. Well, I did suspect about half way through there might be some word play on "Osobnyak" but all I came with was that it's an anagram for "A Sky Noob". I even passed it through a binary translator, swapped letters for numbers, etc. Alas, to no avail it seems. Not that it really matters at this point.

Hadriel3
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2010.07.06 16:35:00 - [281]
 

I've been following this thread on and off for a while, and as far as I have seen noone has keyed onto a small but interesting fact I stumbled across.

While re-reading some of the pertinent chronicles (I particularly liked Cold Wind) I came across the fact that in "The Vitrauze Project" they clearly call out Hilen Tukoss as a Deteis. (""Hilen," she said quietly, looking across to the Deteis."). But in "Anoikis" Hilen is thinking "Cold Wind taught him to move without sound or track, and to perceive the paths that are hidden."

Now the above only becomes interesting when you reference "Cold Wind" and see:

"K’vire was fast and strong. Cold Wind taught him the words that make the bow stronger and make the arrow fly true. He taught him to move without sound or track, and to perceive the paths that are hidden.

Deteaas was calm and deep. Cold Wind taught him the words that sing the deeds of heroes fallen in battle and instill fire in the heart of men. He taught him when to run and when to walk, when to wait and when to strike."

And the "source" of the cold wind chronicle:

"From”Two Bloodlines, one Race: the Raata spirit in the Deteis and Civire soul”, Lai Dai Press, YR87. Reprinted with permission."

The traits that Hilen is displaying are those given to the Civire by cold wind, not to the Deteis. So why then does the chronicle so clearly call Hilen a Deteis and yet give him Civire traits?

If this has already been explored and someone knows the answer please enlighten me, otherwise enjoy the food for thought.

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
Posted - 2010.07.06 20:43:00 - [282]
 

Edited by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara on 27/07/2010 00:56:57
[

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2010.07.06 23:37:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Simple: "Two Bloodlines, one Race".


Yes, exactly.

I intentionally chose a Deteis for this reason; to emphasize those very words.

Honestly, I didn't expect that anyone would ask these questions or pick up on that...but you guys continue to surprise. Nicely done, Hadriel.

(By the way, so that people don't read too much into this: It's not some important storyline point or anything of significance when it comes to the Sleepers...more just a subtle way of suggesting that Civire can act like Deteis, in the same way that Patriots might act like Practicals to get the job done. Categories and labels and stereotypes are essential for building a sense of the world, but personally, I think for that world to have a heartbeat, those lines need to become blurred and people need to behave like...people. Much is said about the grey morality of EVE, but little is said about the grey nature of factionalism and ideology.)

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
Posted - 2010.07.07 00:04:00 - [284]
 

Edited by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara on 27/07/2010 00:57:13

Saul Dhampir
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.07.07 01:19:00 - [285]
 

Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 07/07/2010 01:21:03
Edit.

Hmm.... animated gif failed.

Hadriel3
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2010.07.07 05:25:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

Honestly, I didn't expect that anyone would ask these questions or pick up on that...but you guys continue to surprise. Nicely done, Hadriel.


Sig'd for eternity!

But seriously, that makes perfect sense now that I re-examine it yet again. Really all I was trying to do was re-ignite the discussion by all the people that are much more insightful than myself, and I got a blue bar post for my troubles lol.

This thread has been one of the most enjoyable ones on the boards and I would love to see the dialogue continue until we get to the heart of the sleeper lore.

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2010.07.07 13:33:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara

The Sleepers are the Jove. The only question is; which Empire: first or second? My guess is the first.


Holy ****, you're right.

Terokone
Posted - 2010.07.07 16:59:00 - [288]
 

Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara

The Sleepers are the Jove. The only question is; which Empire: first or second? My guess is the first.


Then there's the Curse region description.
Once we were mighty,
Stars bent to our will,
Our reach was infinite,
Our power incontestable,
With outstretched hands we tried,
To touch the face of perfection,
But we came too close,
To that which is not due mortals,
And our punishment is our curse,
Our endless sorrow.
- Translation of an old Jovian poem

*snip off the Angel quote*

If, indeed, the Sleepers are the Jove, the first part of the poem would make sense. The second part would apply toward their second empire.

But then, if the Jove and Sleepers were really two different civilizations, the Jove successes could have originated from the Sleepers. If your civilization/race was driven toward perfection, wouldn't it look toward a more successful civilization/race in attempts to mimic it?

- Sleeper solar engineering:
Collecting solar energy and transient radiation energy from stars and other stellar phenomena as a source of endless (relatively speaking) energy.
- Jovian poem quote "Stars bent to our will":
Learn from Sleepers how to harness the same engineering the Sleepers were capable of.

- Sleeper Emergent AI with Limiters:
Sleeper drones.
- Jovian AI Research:
Said to have been abandoned long ago for more tangible results.

- Sleeper use of fullerenes and nanotech and undeniable mastery of it.
- Jovian mastery of fullerene technology.

- Sleeper Interstellar Surveillance Task Force
Possibly used to monitor fledgling civilizations, or enemies.
- Jovian Use of Interstellar Surveillance
It's known that the Jove use covert bugging devices to gain information, possibly to maintain an edge in technology, monitor the younger civilizations, or possibly look for new ways to think of things that the Jove haven't thought of.

- Biogenetics
Speaks for itself that both Sleepers and Jove have significant use of it.

With all those similarities, I'd like to ask the question:
What are the major known differences between the Sleepers and the Jove, other than the fact that the Jove are still around?

I'm still not convinced that the Sleepers and the Jove are one in the same. The similarities are strong evidence that they are, though. But, like I said before, if your race strives to be perfect, wouldn't it look up to a race far more powerful and seek to emulate it in as many ways as possible and more?

Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2010.07.07 21:08:00 - [289]
 

I think the Angel quote in the Curse region description is relevant. "Perfection ain't all it's cracked up to be." Let's say the Angel Cartel truly includes people from all races, including potentially any left-behind Jovians who didn't actually perish as expected. Then those individuals and the others working directly with them (high-up Dominations) would have a different perspective on "perfection".

Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.08 11:51:00 - [290]
 

Edited by: Vadimik on 08/07/2010 11:54:55
I really think it's worthwhile to establish a couple of things we do know and shift the focus from chronicles to actual in-game info.

First, from cosmos constellations, we know that there are four "ancient techs/factions" (so to speak), namely:

Sleeper Technology
The Sleepers were masters of virtual reality, neural interfacing and cryotechnology.

Takmahl Technology
The Takmahl nation excelled in cybernetics and bio-engineering.

Talocan Technology
The Talocan were masters of Spatial manipulation and Hypereuclidean Mathematics.

Yan Jung Technology
The Yan Jung nation possessed advanced gravitronic technology and force field theories.

These four were likely about as distinct as modern factions are. That is - mostly on paper. So I don't really see a point to all this "who is who" debate. Look at it from modern standpoint: sure, gallente are the ones with most advanced drone tech, but it does not mean federation is drones, neither it means everything drone is federation-issue.
As for the Jove part in all this, again, it's not unreasonable to assume jovians were just another faction of that time, or maybe all four nations were parts of same empire jovians were. And I see no revelations in either theory.

At any rate, back to sites in w-space.
From what we known, all those sites were made to "last for eons" while whoever created/planned them "is not around". Since those sites are guarded by sleeper drones, it seems logical to assume that sleepers were the creators of those sites, (maybe not the sole creators, however).
What is the final purpose of those sites we do now know yet, but we do know that:
- sleeper drones have subsystems that allow neural interfacing of sorts while not being organic (not afaik, at least), implying whoever left those drones intended to reestablish contact at least at some point.
- w-space sites have modern hybrid tech decryptor already inside, implying those complexes are active research grounds even today.

Thus, whoever created those sites hoped to both "return" and gain some new valuable data.

The key question to understanding the actual purpose of those sites is, I think, "why leave in the first place?".

In general, I see at least three good reasons to leave in such fashion:
1)Not being able to stay.
2)Having a better place to go.
3)Wanting to avoid being "around" for some time.

#3 is (pretty much) a dead-end at this point. If you don't want to be "around", chances are, you will make sure it's next-to-impossible to figure out where you went (or why).

#2 makes one wonder why bother having not only guardians, but ongoing research if the place you intend to go to is "better". Unless, of course, you need those installations in top shape for your welfare at your "new" home. Given sleepers were into virtual reality, exactly that path is not an unreasonable assumption. However, if that is indeed the case, why would modern jove be alarmed? Sure if sleepers just went into VR for good, nothing about them would be a threat to the outside world unless they are heavily provoked. This option seems even less likely since sleeper research vectors just go too far beyond what is needed if "return" is just a fail-safe.

#1 All things considered, the most likely reason. The question is, then, "what prevented them from staying?". There is, again, no clear answer as of yet. However, the heavy focus on research in many sleeper sites would likely indicate that sleepers needed something "solved" in their absense, that it was not just a matter of time. Likely, this "issue" they needed solved was exactly what prevented them from staying in the first place. Considering the nature of their research, that issue was, likely, medical in nature.

Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.08 12:23:00 - [291]
 

Edited by: Vadimik on 08/07/2010 12:23:35
So my current theory is (already mentioned a few times here): sleepers were having some sort of a plague they could not deal with in time. Already having a solid cryotechnology base, they decided to go into cryostasis (thus the name "sleepers"), waiting for a cure. The task of finding that "cure" was placed on a netwrok on sites in w-space. Sleeper drones are just the "personnel" of those sites.

A few things I'm not sure about:
- how exactly cryotechnology was coupled with VR tech? Maybe everyone was put into stasis while their consciousness digitized, maybe it was just a stasis, maybe some were put into stasis while others digitized with no body left, and so on.
- if, indeed, at least some of them were digitized, are they still in contact with their drones?
- where exatly are the storage areas (for either the bodies or the consciousnesses)? Maybe it's within the sites we already found, maybe it's someplace else.
- Did something go "wrong"?
- Why was w-space sealed? To prevent something from getting in or out?
- What was the exact "issue" that forced sleeper to do whatever it was they did? If it was indeed a plague, is it contagious to modern species (Kyonoke Pit?)?

And one question that's much more substantial:
Is there really nothing we can do with sleeper "tags" other than sell at this point?

Terokone
Posted - 2010.07.08 18:10:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Vadimik

And one question that's much more substantial:
Is there really nothing we can do with sleeper "tags" other than sell at this point?


That's what I was wondering. CONCORD, and several other major corporations are looking for all these sleeper tags, including Sansha's.
There were only two ideas I could think of. One was loading up a bunch of the tags in cargo and moving to each Sleeper/Talocan structure we can find to see if there's any other interactions.
So far, the only structure that interacts with our ships is the Oruze Osobnyk, and that's apparently without any tags.

My other idea was to, again, load up a bunch of tags into cargo, this time into a black ops ship equipped with a jump drive, then try to use the jump drive near the various structures and see what happens.

Another idea comes to mind: sensor linking. Load up a bunch of tags into cargo and attempt to sensor link with the various structures. I don't know if it would work, but it's an idea.

Richtor Mettle
Cryptic Solutions
Posted - 2010.07.08 18:32:00 - [293]
 

Edited by: Richtor Mettle on 08/07/2010 18:36:20
Originally by: Terokone
Originally by: Vadimik

And one question that's much more substantial:
Is there really nothing we can do with sleeper "tags" other than sell at this point?


That's what I was wondering. CONCORD, and several other major corporations are looking for all these sleeper tags, including Sansha's.
There were only two ideas I could think of. One was loading up a bunch of the tags in cargo and moving to each Sleeper/Talocan structure we can find to see if there's any other interactions.
So far, the only structure that interacts with our ships is the Oruze Osobnyk, and that's apparently without any tags.

My other idea was to, again, load up a bunch of tags into cargo, this time into a black ops ship equipped with a jump drive, then try to use the jump drive near the various structures and see what happens.

Another idea comes to mind: sensor linking. Load up a bunch of tags into cargo and attempt to sensor link with the various structures. I don't know if it would work, but it's an idea.


I've been following this for a bit, and I'm still a n00b when it comes to the lore, but I thought I'd throw this out. I'm not sure if anyone on here has read The True Game series by Sherri S. Teppier, but this sounds a lot like it was taken from that (or a similar thought process Wink ). In that book, a group of highly psionic people are sent to another world in a starship. Their bodies are put in stasis, and their minds, personalities, etc are encoded into a small miniature of themselves referred to as 'blues' in the series.

I haven't been able to see what these "tags" look like (the icon I mean), but what if these so called tags are actually the stored minds/personalities/ect. of the sleepers? Loading them up in a ship and going to the Oruze Osobnyk, might be...interesting. Considering it is the only one with a "Residential Area".

Forgot to add, if there are a number of corporations and even CONCORD looking for them, I'd say it's obvious they know something about them we don't. If my theory is right, or even close, then what's to say they aren't trying to crack them and get the data within...or make contact...

just a thought to stir the waters a bit...

Ortan Murdak
Liberty Storm
Atlas.
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:57:00 - [294]
 

just found Oruze Osobnyk in J143127, unfortunately I'm in a Probe and not a Zephyr, so I can't do anything. If anyone wants to come looking for it, I'll be on in a couple hgours to scan down entrances to the system. Just looked at the forum after a long absence, and I see much progress has been made Smile

Rowbin Hod
InterSun Freelance
The Forsaken.
Posted - 2010.07.09 14:00:00 - [295]
 

I'd really like to know if there are any additional in-game interactions out there that we haven't stumbled upon. We've all seen the messages which pop up, but is there anything else that we're meant ot be able to do that we just haven't found yet?

khazak mokl
Amarr
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2010.07.09 16:41:00 - [296]
 

Hey guys. As a long time occupier of WH space I wud like to say thanks for re-igniting my passion for all things wormholy Very Happy

1 think i did notice in the chronical Anoikis were this passage:-

The capsuleers?

Naturally, there will need to be a waiver on capsuleer-related science and industry, but this is the second thing you must understand. The truth will find its way out eventually. Please forgive me for saying so, but I cannot properly serve in this role if I do not give you the most accurate analyses I can. The truth will find its way out. We cannot control their access. It will be they who make the discovery.

How quickly do you expect this to happen?

I cannot say. Their interests are unpredictable, but they are divided and divisive. There will always be ones who question what most do not, but I believe that overall, they will share the same goals as the empires. They will take what they can understand and reintegrate. We may see another rise in their power and autonomy as a result. We should expect them to monopolize on this new opportunity as well. Given the inherent dangers of exploring Anoikis, they are positioned favorably to do so. In terms of raw resource gathering capabilities, conventional empire fleets will not be economically competitive. We will struggle to maintain a presence eventually.

That will turn the empires toward research.

Not if we intervene and provide for them what convincingly appears to be the most promising final applications of any potential studies. This hints at precisely the point we must illuminate. When framed as a concern for the balance of power between the empires and the capsuleers, our interests will appear far more congruent with theirs, and our actions will remain understandable. The empires can be made to quickly appreciate how little control over these new areas they will have, and from there, it will be simple to assist each of them in coordinating access to components we identify as key. They will recognize it as the only opportunity any of them have for strategic equality. None will refuse


This smacks to me of us being lead around by the nose ring in regards to invention and what the different componants are to be used for. It indicates that if we were left to reserch ourselves we may find other applications. (Maybe even the mysterious 5th sub system Very Happy)

Also there is talk in another post about once we have gained the knowledge of how WH systems connect to each other and k space. Can someone tell me how this would push the story along so I may in future make an informed choice.

Khaz

PS. we already tried going to the sites with blue sleeper loot in our cargo and nothing happened yet.

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:25:00 - [297]
 

I believe that the EVE Gate explosion was basically a man made event. The original empires in the face of something which might have something to do with the Terran's used wormhole space as a way to safe guard themselves, almost like a seed bank or Noah's Ark, containing the knowledge of the original empires. They used their combined knowledge to build the facilities and the Sleeper Drones so that it could last for 1000's of years and be self sustaining. The Sleeper Drones with their pincers and mechanical arms seem more like maintenance drones, alongside being there to protect the facilities.

The original Jove was born from these efforts, as the Jovian's are a combination of all the old empires understandings, where as it describes the original empires as masters of a few key sciences. I think the sleepers represent what was the foundation of the original Jove in the many years after the EVE gate explosion and the annihilation of the original empires.

There is a lot there which is meant to lure our eyes astray from the unfolding story. Many of the labs on the facilities resemble the understandings required to make the sleeper drones and the facilities happen, but the bio and quarantine facilities seems unrelated to the past and more current to the now. It could also be that the current Jove empire have been adapting the technology to further their plans. It's possible they could of used this to build a machine able to create wormholes at will.

I think that the current Jove Empire has used this facility which has been known to them all along, or rediscovered at some point in the past. I believe the Jove can't cure their disease. So they have been looking for another way around the problem. Data available to them via the POD program could of allowed them access to a massive amount of information regarding the mental and physical, and how that relates to the POD technology.

This is where it gets more interesting, the Jove have obviously made some kind of break through and thus the discovery of the facilities in wormhole space by the four current Empires is of no consequence to the Jove. Their plan unfolds, while the empires are one step behind. blinded by the riches and advancements presented to them with the discovery of such technology. But it has maybe served as an intentional or unintentional distraction away from what the Jove has been doing, and is planning.

I'm not sure how Sansha's Nation and the Jove are related, but I would construed that it's the Jove who want the bodies of the millions of abducted, and not Sansha's Nation (however you look at it, the Jove must be gaining something from what is happening with Sansha's attacks in Empire). I'm sure it was said some where that we can expect something interesting in the future in terms of the Jove, not sure if anyone can quantify that at all. But what if instead of curing their disease, the Jove are planning to actually transfer themselves into new bodies, or use these humans as a way for the Jove to basically start again from scratch with a totally new undamaged genetic chain.

If the current Jove empire has been basically watching the four empires, manipulating them and studying their genetic make up so that they could go about harvesting them to rebuild the Jove from scratch, untainted by the disease which has dogged them. The facilities in wormhole space was a perfect way for the Jove to do this off the radar, until the Isotope-5 explosion.

I think this might all be leading up to the rebirth of the Jove. Maybe even as a way to rebalance the Jove into a playable race which is not so technologically advanced than the other empires. This whole plot line has closed the gap between the empires and the Jove, obviously a core mechanic in which the Jove were so much more advanced kept them out of reach as a playable race. Wormholes gave us T3 and the start of understanding things not imaged before we uncovered the 'Sleepers'.

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2010.07.09 21:50:00 - [298]
 

I'm still working through the thread but...

The most dependable energy source would indeed be cosmic background radiation. Although another possibility is the Hawking radiation from the remains of EVE Gate, assuming a better understanding of the Gate than ours.

The most efficient means would be a Dyson Sphere, and I'm struck by the possibility that "Mirror" may be a reference to something of that design.

A rather silly idea has occurred to me though...
In a world so heavily driven by visual rather than auditory cues the evolution of the word denim would not have occurred in the same manner.
Instead we would be faced by transcription errors and guessed smudges...
The Cyrillic alphabet adds an extra factor to this (familiar though the "mistranslation" of the acronym for the USSR as CCCP rather than SSSR).
Combine this with the way many Cyrillic characters look backwards to those familiar with Latin characters and the name "Mirror"...

Price cheka
Posted - 2010.07.10 16:02:00 - [299]
 

Might be the wrong place to ask this but does anyone know where the sleeper manuscripts,sleeper profound reserch notes and other items listed under reserch/invention> artifacts/lore > sleeper comes from?

And are they used for anything?

cheers

Veryez
Posted - 2010.07.10 16:28:00 - [300]
 

Edited by: Veryez on 11/07/2010 06:47:51
Edited by: Veryez on 11/07/2010 06:29:47
After re-reading the details of the Seyllin Incident, I noticed this curious phrase:

"The star's entire magnetic field had re-aligned towards the explosion"

Additionally the Line from the Curse region description:

"Stars bent to our will,Our reach was infinite,Our power incontestable"

Lastly something from this thread:

"Well, Pottsey made an interesting discovery not so long ago, but the depth of what had been discovered still remains lost on you capsuleers. Take a good, long, look at this. It should shed some....light...on what Oruze might mean. "

Finally:

"Oruze Enclave
1.0 Solar Engineering
1.1 Photoelectrical Engineering
1.2 Thermovoltaics"

Suns give off electromagnetic radiation across the entire spectrum. Photoelectric effect is one of the three types of gamma interactions with matter (gamma interacts with atom, electron and photon (light) given off). Lastly Thermovoltaic is, "This relates generally to the field of direct energy conversion. In particular, this invention relates to a method and apparatus for the direct conversion by thermovoltaic energy conversion of photon energy into electricity."

Thus the first 3 entries on the Oruze Enclave tell us what the power source is. Combining this with the first quotes, I am reminded of collage experiments I have done with lasers, where a laser would be reflected off a mirror and directed to endpoint. Thus, to me, the start of the wormholes was triggered my an alignment of certain suns towards a mirror. However, something was done to strengthen the beam, the "re-ailgnment towards the explosion," could in fact be re-alignment to a mirror, passing through a cache of Isogen-5, which would act like a lens and concentrate (strengthen) the beam.

This begs the question who (or what) setup this chain reaction. Perhaps it was whomever gave the amarr the technology used to fire the weapon in the abaddon, knowing that this chain of events would happen. Remember too, the very bright star seen/noticed by all prior to empyrian age. The true significance of this event was never explained. It was even reported in Scope, and I believe investigated by SOE. Could this be how they knew wormholes were being formed? Was this a test of the technology?

edit - From the end of the world series, I get the impression that the Jove are pulling the blood raider strings and that they didn't want the weapon to be fired, but I don't think they realized what would happen if the isogen-5 was detonated, the chain reaction that would occur. However manipulating the minmatar to attack the amarr, then giving the amarr the weapon seems more like an enheduanni plot, than a jove plot.


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