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Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
Posted - 2010.05.07 02:01:00 - [1]

One thing that has bugged me since the creation of W-Space is the Sleepers.

In simplest terms, why did you pick 'reviving' an ancient race to fill up this new area of EVE instead of the Rogue Drones? Both factions seem to largely be the exact same thing, the only difference is that the Sleepers are hyper-advanced and lack any hard data on their exact nature.

It bugs me because it would have been a great opportunity to blow open new items on the Rogue Drones, pushing them forward in plot advancement and evolving their concept. Instead, as far as my time in Wormhole Space has taught me, there are the Sleepers and ... woo, nothing. Rogue Drones are still pretty much "durp we're bees".

Can you offer any word on this to put my mind to ease?

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2010.05.07 03:15:00 - [2]

The short answer is that the two are not as interchangeable as you might think.

The longer answer is that returning the focus to Sleepers after the first time (COSMOS) allowed us to continue developing a plotline that is as old as EVE itself. So let me put your fears to rest; we weren't unthinkingly reviving something newer as filler at the expense of using something else that's more established. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Think about that. It may not make sense at first. The complexity of the Sleeper's story runs so deeply that it may take some time to understand. Some time indeed, but you should think about it all the same, if you ever want to understand. The pieces of this puzzle are scattered across a wide area, and a stretch of time unlike any event in EVE has seen before. If you think anyone forgot about developing this storyline, if you think the "silence" right now is indicative of apathy or disregard at our end, then you're (quite understandably) assuming that all of this is being done on the traditional timescale - but that is not the case. All of this - all of it - is unfolding in real time, and it will take either a genius or a collective effort to make sense of the whole from the fragments that remain. We are watching and waiting for the day to come when the capsuleers will move this particular storyline forward. We are still waiting.

Let me tell you now that if you look closely at all things Sleeper, you will be rewarded for it. Nothing was put anywhere by mistake, and very, very, little of it is what you could describe as "filler". When it comes to the Sleepers, each stroke on the canvas was meant to be there and each part serves a purpose, whether little or...big. There are depths to this storyline that nobody has explored, complexities that have not yet been understood, mysteries that are still waiting to be unraveled, and this is a year and half after the discovery of Anoik...wormhole space.

There's more out there than people have realized, and more in store than you might expect.

If you think I'm being overly cryptic, then when you all understand this, you'll also understand why. Simply put, we don't want to destroy the mystery because it's not for us to spell it out to you all. That's the point of all of this - for you all to figure it out. Consider it an experiment in interactive storytelling, and one that has really only just begun.

But to add just a little more specificity to what will probably otherwise be seen as a cryptic response...I'll give you a specific (but relatively minor in the scheme of things) example of what sort of things you can all discover, if you only try - of how a simple bit of awareness and induction can carry you a long way in this storyline:

Throughout wormhole space you will encounter strange anomalies known as the Oruze Construct, and Oruze Osobnyk. Osobnyk already has its own input, but Oruze? What does that mean?

Well, Pottsey made an interesting discovery not so long ago, but the depth of what had been discovered still remains lost on you capsuleers. Take a good, long, look at this. It should shed some....light...on what Oruze might mean.

This same process of induction can be applied to many, many things out there. I suggest you all keep investigating, and most importantly, keep theorizing. You've a lot left to piece together.

All my love,
CCP Dropbear

P.S. I know I drifted away from a direct response there, but Ghost, you gave me an opportunity to say some things I've wanted to for a long time.

Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.05.07 04:07:00 - [3]

Edited by: Myxx on 07/05/2010 04:15:13
I've so far figured this much out, as its all rather obvious, to me at the very least. Correct me, maybe in evemail if im wrong, dropbear... but if im right... id love to have a hint that im on the right track.

1: rogue drones were created by sleeper design, there are hints in the lore all over, to list them is impossibly long.
2: it may very well of been by sleeper design that the creator of creodron got to where he was.
3: rogue drones were the direct impetus for our arrival in w-space, again by sleeper design.
4: the reason we are there is a matter of evolution in the eyes of those responsible.
5: the jove may very well have survived due to sleeper intervention, or connection. Their disease, may also have something to do with the sleepers
6: sleepers may still exist, as sleeper agents within the empires (actually, no, correction... they do, its been widely hinted at repeatedly that this is the case)
7: concord may very well be in on this.
8: sleepers originated from k-space, they were here before us and they may very well be personally responsible for the eve-gate wormhole.
9: sansha may of gotten some of his mind control techniques from sleepers, or proxies of them (hinted at in several places, if only indirectly)
10: the blood raiders were there by design (hinted at in world on fire)

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
Posted - 2010.05.07 06:06:00 - [4]

Edited by: Ghost Hunter on 07/05/2010 06:06:10
Dropbear youuuu youuuu this.

I'm glad to see there is purposeful intent behind all of wormhole space and it simply wasn't shoe-horned in, as it were. There's a huge motivational difference in grasping at straws thinking there's a big plan - and then knowing there is one.

I do believe I'll dust off the old bits and pieces I have saved away for some studying.

Cheers, Dropbear. ;D

Jack bubu
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.05.07 12:59:00 - [5]

wow just wow

thank you dropbear, my interest in sleepers just sparked by over 9000


/me is away setting up a whiteboard for all the stuff about sleepers

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Project Daedalid
Posted - 2010.05.07 13:30:00 - [6]

Edited by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara on 27/07/2010 01:02:47

So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.05.07 23:43:00 - [7]

Edited by: So Sensational on 07/05/2010 23:45:54
Originally by: CCP Dropbear

Oh carp, this is like with Jedi at the time of SWG release, before they admitted that they hadn't done **** to implement them.

You've sparked my interest in the EVE lore.

Mr Reeth
Posted - 2010.05.08 02:56:00 - [8]

Much frustration comes from Eve's player base due a perceived apathy from those in charge. We get worried that maybe the devs don't care about the game as much as the fans. We’ve seen to many things we love destroyed by their creators… Star Wars, Star Trek, Indiana Jones and many many other examples have made us all paranoid. We just want to know that the devs are thinking about the things that concern us and are moving in the right direction. The occasional reassuring post like we've just seen from Mr Dropbear make all the difference. Thank you Mr Dropbear for taking the time to make us all feel better about the Sleepers.

BTW I think I have a screen shot of the Sleeper god. Anybody interested?

Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.05.08 06:15:00 - [9]

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
All of this - all of it - is unfolding in real time, and it will take either a genius or a collective effort to make sense of the whole from the fragments that remain.

I'd love it if this were the case, but my experience with MMOs in general leads me to believe this is just be an excuse for incoherent plot and world development. Then again, EVE is about as far from your typical MMO as is possible. Time will tell, I suppose.

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Project Daedalid
Posted - 2010.05.08 21:37:00 - [10]

Edited by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara on 27/07/2010 01:03:00

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2010.05.09 03:55:00 - [11]

Myxx: It's not as all-involving a "conspiracy" as you're getting at there, although perhaps the implications are…without saying too much. It's closer to one larger, singular point, and a lot of other little unknowns that will fall into place and make more sense once the fundamentals are better understood.

Take another look at how you can piece together what Oruze means…see how well things line up together once you look at various bits and pieces in their totality? You can figure other things out with this same method and arrive at conclusions with a similar level of confidence in their truth. It's as much a matter of knowing what to filter out as what to pay attention to, as well.

So Sensational: It's not totally analogous, since what we're dealing with here is somewhat less ambitious and more experimental, and it doesn't influence any central game mechanics either. At its heart, this is just a story that wants some friends. Glad to have sparked your interest, in any case, hopefully it can be sustained.

Maerec: Ultimately time will tell, you're right. It's one thing to say and another to deliver, but I will say that in terms of delivering…there is far more figured out and written down already about our Sleepers than has made its way to the public. Not only does this guide us, but it also works as a buffer of sorts, in that we have a "reservoir" of internal storyline already established that we can incorporate into new content (be it in-game, or through out of game methods like forums, evelopedia, chronicles, and so on…).

Part of this is baseline economics too though; supply and demand. If there's interest, then it becomes easier to argue for the allocation of time and resources to push that new (pre-made) content through in more polished / cool / interactive ways. At least one new development is locked in though, so keep your eyes on the chronicles page over the next little while.

Nikilaiki: The issue of knowledge gained from Chronicles and other "out of game" sources is a somewhat inevitable point of conflict, and that's something we're always aware of. When it comes to Sleepers, the focus was on planting seeds amongst the in-game content that came with Apocrypha, so that capsuleers could piece together things just by logging in and taking notice. So…think of that "external" knowledge you mention (and other things past, present and future of that nature) as guidance; beacons to help steer you on the right paths. Going purely off what you can experience as a capsuleer in-game though, I think you can build some credible theories. Hopefully in time, your capacity to do that will grow with the addition of new content, but as I say, supply and demand, we'll have to see how this and many other projects go. Very Happy

To the rest of you awesome people: Thank you <3. Glad to see the message taken in the way I wanted it to be.

I'm going to lurk again now before I say too much. You're all on your own for a bit again.

We'll be watching. YARRRR!!

P.S. One last thing actually, then I'll shut my bearhole.

I know that what I've written in the past (see: Vitrauze Project) was a wee bit …esoteric and cryptic…but perhaps this explains some of the vagueness to it all. In addition to that I want to say that I lubs Herko too guys. Cold Wind is my favorite chronicle. In fact, in my own overly subtle way, I paid homage to the guy and his work right before your eyes. I like to hide things in plain sight.

See, the whole point of Lianda's journey was to, in the words of the chronicle, "burn, glow like Seyllin". And in that dim luminescence of her sacrifice, "others would see the hidden paths to tread".

"He", our Caldari in the story, "would have liked it phrased that way".

I hope you understand? That's how intentional some of this gets...I humbly ask that you don't take anything for granted.

Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.05.09 15:56:00 - [12]

Originally by: Ghost Hunter
Edited by: Ghost Hunter on 07/05/2010 06:06:10
Dropbear youuuu youuuu this.

Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2010.05.10 00:45:00 - [13]

I think that the sleepers made something...horrible. I think that they bio-engineered a virus that could somehow endure the vacuum of space. That would explain the quarantine warning, and the biogenetic research facility with the strange text windows. The virus, or whatever it was, killed all of them. Before dying out, they re-programmed and re-fitted every singly drone they had for the sole purpose of protecting their space, and making sure that whatever killed them all could never be set loose by future explorers.

Or something like that.

Asbalon Jade
Posted - 2010.05.10 06:19:00 - [14]

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

Well, Pottsey made an interesting discovery not so long ago, but the depth of what had been discovered still remains lost on you capsuleers. Take a good, long, look at this. It should shed some....light...on what Oruze might mean.

Heh... I still find it hard to believe that I was the first Capsuleer to find that bit of info, or atleast tell the story of it (Pottsey was kind enought to post it here for me since I wasn't really used to these forums, and didn't know where it belongs).

I remember when I got that first popup, I was like a young schoolboy that just stumbeled upon a mistery. Anyway... my search continues. Just yesterday I found a very intresting site in a class 2 Wspace "The Ruins of Enclave Cohort 27"... very intresting indeed.

By the way.. did anyone ever notice that the Drone giving the Sister of eve so many problems in Kspace (Sisters Epic Arc), is infact a sleeper drone cruiser type? Spent so much time in Wspace, I (*Asbalon Jade gets zapped by his ships AI*)... I mean "WE"... recognized it imediatly..

Info screen:
Live screen:

Asbalon Jade moves his hands over the main controlls, with the grin of a young schoolboy, "Carina?".
The AI's voice sounded at once "Yes Asbalon?".
"I do believe we have more discovering to do"
"Oh goody"
Asbalon laughed, "Whats the current status of Teddybears?"
"All Teddybear cannons are loaded, reserve stocks are full. We are running low on blankys, but standard Sleeper encounters should pose no threat", the AI replied.
"Very good. Launch the sisters scanner probes, lock on the first anomaly and tell the crew to start praying".
"Sir, I believe they never stopped praying since we moved into this C6 W-space..."
"Ahh thats the spirit! I love it when a crew backs its captain!"
"Thats not quite what I mea... oh never mind sir. By the way, your cat is playing near the Antimatter Hybrid charges again."
"Ahhhhh, how sweet! Are you video recording it?"
"Yes sir..."

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Project Daedalid
Posted - 2010.05.10 08:27:00 - [15]

Edited by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara on 27/07/2010 01:03:14

Posted - 2010.05.10 14:32:00 - [16]

Does anyone know which Earth language the Talocan language originated from?

Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.05.11 16:34:00 - [17]

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 11/05/2010 16:51:27
It seems that the Sleepers and Talocan were deeply involved with a mixture of medical emergency response and Artificial Intelligence research, with a dash of biological and technological interfacing to boot. Given the large sectors of quarantine within a given facility seen so far, the number of entirely quarantined facilities, and the large sectors within them dedicated to servers and backup and a myriad number of other hints, the answer of where the sleepers went is starting to seem rather obvious:

They're not gone, their consciousness' have been moved into the data enclaves. Those myriad transfers of data are probably the digital souls of the sleepers and talocan who have been there for the past several millenia. But why are they there?

The medical terminology suggests that there may have been some sort of galactic plague that infected their biological forms, but it also suggests a possibility of the AIs becoming infected themselves. They may have digitized their souls in a singularity with the thus far unknown plague outbreak ending their civilization at a much later date.

The worse possibility is that the digitization of their consciousness was not a barrier to the disease, because its nature is attached to the mind, and maybe even related to another piece of the back story. Perhaps its the Jove Disease?

There is something out there that the sleepers didn't want getting out, but the back story in chronicles suggests that forces from within managed to find a way. The mission story arc with the sleeper drone and it's unusual behavior with Rogue Drones suggests a very sinister plot is unfolding among the artificially intelligent denizens of the galaxy... so where does that leave the capsuleers? Is the proliferation of capsule technology the Jove's response to the threat that appears to have ended the Sleepers and Talocan?

On the other hand, this post might just be nothing but wild mass guessing. Laughing

Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.05.12 06:03:00 - [18]

I had to skim read this due to being short of time. Will read again later. For now if anyone wants my collection of Sleeper lore check out
Please considering helping me fill in the gaps.

True Enlightenment
Posted - 2010.05.14 15:51:00 - [19]

First of all...
I knew it... you are up to something with sleepers and there is much much more about them Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy
I live in wh for more than a year now (since i was three month old player,so i am used more to wh-eve than to k-space eve and love it :D ), heh i can say that in someway wh life turns you into darker and more dangerous capsuleer, in a way you become like sleepers themselves.

Since first time i asked myself on radar site why are those data banks ejected...
...Why is enclave cohort 27 abandoned like that...
and most important question i ask myself every time i warp to sleeper site...
What happened here ? I wish i could know... Confused
...As the time passed i observed those things less and less..let it slip into back of my mind...rather concentrate on players in my overview or sleeper drones.
And I just recently started browsing this part of the forum unfortunately(i wish i looked at it earlier Sad).
This is great...this way of the story unfolding...Very Happy
Two types of games i like are space sandbox-type games and adventure games.
Ant this brings eve a little bit to the latter Very Happy
Just wanted to add my thoughts on "Oruze"...

You say that picture you linked can shed some "light"
...and some things on those subsections of oruze enclave is about light( or stars) "solar engineering" / "photoelectrical engineering" ...
So.. i think that oruze means "stellar" in "stellar manipulation"...
So that conclusion get me thinking... appearance of wh-s is somewhat connected to the stars...
...and one more thing...
...why in many of wh-systems there are stellar anomalies (Black hole, Pulsar, Magnetar...)...
I mean ...who builds stations and structures in systems with that kind of dangerous anomalies, maybe that anomalies were caused by the sleepers, maybe they were experimenting with the stars and manipulation of those...

Maybe i am completely off the track here...but anyway...
Just my two nanoribbons...Very Happy

One more time...I am very happy about the storyline and very happy to see it unfold ..slowly... :D

Great work ! Very Happy

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.05.15 03:11:00 - [20]

Interesting. So 'solar engineering' suggests these guys can build or modify stars. Coupled with knowing that Eve's gates are dependent on certain gravitational arrangements of stars... maybe these guys collapsed the Eve gate. Perhaps to seal it behind themselves while 'sleeping' out some long-term condition on the other side. Or maybe they were trying to re-open it.

Omir Kajil
Armada Projection
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:52:00 - [21]

Wow this is... Brilliant. Shocked

I've been dabbling in wh's awhile now and I gotta say this only increases my fascination with wormholes say... 100 fold? Well in any case... It fits the whole "lost mystery" feel to wormholes. And the danger. A new level on the "where no one has gone before."

the vague terror I felt the first time I went through a wh into unknown space - I'd heard about pilots being stranded there - I RELISHED it!Very Happy

but in any case. Who's read the book Empyrean Age? This intrigues me. If the eve gate is linked to all this... The last section was about a Jove ship desperately trying to reach the eve gate and falling apart as it did so. A lot of hope seemed to rest on reaching this gate. And I got the impression that something unspeakably horrible dawned on the Jove dude at the last moment.

Also... The new Amarr queen whatever her name was... There's like some foriegn monstrous entity in her that can read minds and... And... And the mind reading powers are negated and you're safe if you're near the eve gate and... Could it all be interconnected?

Could it?CoolConfused YARRRR!!

Posted - 2010.05.20 19:39:00 - [22]

I just came here to post a short comedy bit I made up...but then I stumble on this...there are now about half a dozen tabs open in my browser for further reading.

Holy Hell...

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2010.05.24 21:28:00 - [23]

Originally by: Arakimo
I just came here to post a short comedy bit I made up...but then I stumble on this...there are now about half a dozen tabs open in my browser for further reading.

Holy Hell...

Half a dozen? You clearly need more tabs sir. Here's one. And here's another.

Kenpachi Viktor
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.05.25 05:42:00 - [24]

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

Half a dozen? You clearly need more tabs sir. Here's one. And here's another.

This is what makes Eve so real, all the hard science stuff :D

Posted - 2010.05.25 17:02:00 - [25]

Maybe a new piece of the puzzle. Sorry for my english ( french people )Cool
I was looking after a linguistic tricks for Oruze Osobnyk. Even if it doesn't mean "Mansion", this "mansion" give me a name(tell you down).
So i've got a name in my mind and it was lead by this stuff: When I go WH and feel the ambience it's somewhere like in a creepy hight tech grave. Sleepers around,they look weird like mosquitos, Grasshopers and beetles.(beetlejuice beetlejuice beetleoups. Thinking about solar engineering, photoelectrical engineering, solar cell gnnn an ancient devotion to the sun, an bundant source of clean energy.
Talocan are masters of hypereuclidian mathematics (i'm a goat).Euclidian math uses 3D to operate so hyper uses much Very Happy at least 4 to travel trought the time Doc, faster than ligh, as Sleepers managed virtual reality to travel trought the death and cryotech to preserve their hidden bodies.
"The beetle was the moral witness of the deceased and help him when his consciouness will be judge" It is also a symbol of life's cycle.
I think in Horus and all the egyptians stuff...maybe other ideas later... time to go work.

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2010.05.25 21:13:00 - [26]

Time for four more tabs... YARRRR!!

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Interesting. So 'solar engineering' suggests these guys can build or modify stars. Coupled with knowing that Eve's gates are dependent on certain gravitational arrangements of stars... maybe these guys collapsed the Eve gate. Perhaps to seal it behind themselves while 'sleeping' out some long-term condition on the other side. Or maybe they were trying to re-open it.

Maybe, Razz, but also maybe think about what's observable in simpler terms. Consider other Sleeper technology beyond the Oruze Enclave in the Mirror; there are other things worth factoring into any theory about this avenue of their research.

Maybe also consider the use of solid-state fullerites in making nano-scale machinery (I love, by the way, how EVE Online still hasn't dominated every term, and the science still comes up on some "item searches" Very Happy) that exhibits superlubricity.

The overlap of design goals should become noticeable. The clue, if you can't quite figure it out, is in the name of the Sleepers, and in the question: If you're planning on not being around, as it were, what's your safest, most easily acquired, 100% guaranteed source of electricity?

Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.05.26 09:59:00 - [27]

Edited by: Pottsey on 26/05/2010 10:00:56
CCP Dropbear said “If you're planning on not being around, as it were, what's your safest, most easily acquired, 100% guaranteed source of electricity?”
It was never given a name but that power source the Yan Jung use. It works none stop without refuelling for 1,000’s of years perhaps over 14,000 years. Rebuilds its self if blown up or damaged and can power force shields and other high energy equipment for all that time. Or solar power but that’s a boring answer. So I am going stick with the sleepers are using the same power source as the Yan Jung :) After all the Yan Jung Power source is way more reliably then solar power.

Then again a more interesting idea over solar power is a mini star contained inside a structure providing massive amounts of power. As it’s inside a structure very little if any wasted solar energy.

EDIT: My sleeper research is on hold. The corp I am has practically pulled out of wormhole space. Until I find a new home I cannot gather more data or do research :( My search for the Yan Jung in wormhole space has to go on hold.

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Project Daedalid
Posted - 2010.05.26 11:07:00 - [28]

Edited by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara on 27/07/2010 01:03:30

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.05.26 14:43:00 - [29]

Drops, I love you. Haven't been this excited about Eve's plot since beta. I have always enjoyed trying to decipher the reasons behind things happening, and trying to figure out what will happen before it happens. It's how I knew Jamyl would come back a year before she did, it's how I knew the Amarr emperor would get popped, etc... and this is just whetting my appetite for more detective work.

I'd probably sell my kidney for a few hints of what is to come. Sometimes, I -almost- regret the numerous rule violations that likely prohibit me from seeking employment at CCP and thus being privy to internal plot info.

Almost :p

Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.05.26 18:52:00 - [30]

One idea that I haven't seen expressed suggested yet (forgive me if I've missed it) is that the Talocan/Sleepers, with their knowledge of hyper-euclidian geometry, are directly responsible for the wormholes that connect them with K-space, and in fact each other. We know that Sansha's Nation, arguably the most brilliant sect of Empire space, have recently figured out a means to manipulate them as well.

Combine this with the fact that wormhole creation in K-space was a storyline event coupled with the reemergence of Jamyl sporting technology way beyond the four empire's means...this suggests to me a Babylon 5-esque "Shadow" game going on. (Again, forgive me if this information is not entirely accurate. I haven't gotten my hands on the canonical books yet.)

I don't think it's at all unthinkable for the Talocan/Sleepers/whatever-their-relationship-is to still be around, either conscious or unconscious in cryosleep while their automatons wile away the ages. It would certainly explain the in-game use of the name "Sleepers." Their structures are very possibly creating and moving the wormholes around themselves, until the time is right.

Which implies they're in some way watching us right now, perhaps from deeper in W-space that we can't access yet.

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