open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Here is how to passive shield tank for those that want know.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (16)

Author Topic

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.04 19:12:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 25/05/2005 19:47:12
EDIT: May 2005 update
Recent testing has made me believe the correct number is 2.5 at 30%. So please replace 2.4 with 2.5 in all the below text. That also throws the rest of the maths off a little.

Due to the amount of Eve mails I get asking how to passive tank I decided to post it here again. I don’t want to this it turn into another is passive tanking worth or is it a waste of time argument read the numbers and methods and make your own mind up. This is purely to explain how to passive tank to cut down on the mail I get. I don’t have a problem with people mailing me if you do get stuck. For those wondering the idea behind passive setups is if you run out of cap or someone use’s Nos on you, your defence stays on max instead of turning off.

To work out your passive shield recharge rate you need to know you shield cap and shield recharge rate. So you do shield cap / shield recharge rate = xxx. The catch is shields are none linier so the lower the shields get the faster they charge up. At the fastest point around 30% shields are 2.4 ish times faster (if any devs are reading this please confirm if 2.4 is correct). So you do shield cap / shield recharge rate = xxx * 2.4 = yyyy. Do not worry if the first 30 or even 50% of your shields go down fast its from 30 to 50% when your shields are strongest. Once the shields get lower then 20% ish (not sure on correct number) its time to warp out as you hit the point of no return. At this point shields recharge slows down so you getting less per second.

For example if my ship has a 9000 shield cap and a 500 second shield recharge rate my shield points per second would be 9000/500 * 2.4 = 43.2 points per second when less then 20% the 43.2 number drops the more I get below 20% the more the number drops. 90% also worse then 43.2 at 90% I get less then 20 points per second. 43.2 might not seem much but that’s per second. A large shield booster is 160 points over 4 seconds. So to compare you take yyyy in my case 43.2 and * by 4 = 172.8. Extra large shield boosters are over 5 seconds so to compare to that you would do yyy my case 43.2 b 5 = 215.

Please note the above shield cap and shield recharge rates are made up numbers to make the maths easier. My real numbers are higher.

The next question I get asked is what’s better shield extenders or shield recharges. The correct answer is a mix depending on ship. Fit all your mid slots with shield recharges now do shield cap/ shield recharge rate = xxx * 2.4 = yyyy

Now take off 1 mid shield cap / shield recharge rate =xxx and fit in a shield extender. Do shield cap/ shield recharge rate = xxx * 2.4 = yyyy if you get a higher number this time then your better off with a shield extender.

Next repeat the above step but take off a 2nd shield recharges and fit a 2nd shield extender. Do shield cap/ shield recharge rate = xxx * 2.4 = yyyy.

Keep doing the above at some point you will find taking off shield recharges and fitting in shield extender lowers the yyyy number. My ship turned out best with 3 shield extenders and 2 shield recharges.

Best module mid slots are shield extenders and shield recharges. In the low slots shield relays. Do not use shield flux. The flux module lowers your shield cap meaning you get less shield points per second.

If you use max shield relays your reactor will charge up very slow meaning this setup is not practical for some people. It works well on agent missions and for people who forgot to turn on boosters or are just too lazy to turn them on. If you need to PvP and use warp scrabbles and lots of cap draining modules passive setups should not work for you.

For those wonder lots of people have done level 3 agent missions with a passive setup. Some people like to lose a bit of passive setup and fit 1 to 4 hardeners.

If anyone has questions ask away. But please don’t tell me boosters or amour tanking is better or worse. This is just another way to equip your ship. It has a different set of advantages and disadvantages. You might like it you might not.

EDIT: One thing a lot of people forget to take into account about passive setups is you don’t need much cap recharge. Lots look at the recharge rate and go 2000, 3000 or even 6000 seconds reactor cap recharge rate that unusable. But they forget to take into account you don’t have boosters draining the cap fast. A standard scorp battleship can run weapons and 3 active hardeners with missiles for 11 minuets without cap problems. That can easily be extended by training up reactor skills or using 1 nos. That 11 mins also does not take into account the cap you recarge back over 11 mins.

That’s not always the case a full layout of target lock jamers, warp scramblers e.c.t is not a suitable setup for a passive tank.

EDIT 2: There are 6 new implants that help passive tanking and you can use two at once. 3 page has the implants listed.

Elve Sorrow
Amarr
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2004.12.04 19:40:00 - [2]
 

Thank you.

Two questions though:
1) Where did you get the 2.4 figure from? (I came up with a similar multiplier for cap recharge, so im thinking they might work the same.)
2) What ship do you use this on, and what cap recharge are you left with? (Can you for example still run a webber to get the NPC frigs?)

Thanks.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.04 19:57:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 03/09/2005 14:51:44
Update September 2005:
HardeningCalc.xls by Aliksr is a useful spreadsheet for passive shield tanking. It helps you work out which setup is best.

Recently I have changed my views on how to passive tank. Now that T2 Invulnerability fields are out I tend to go for high hitpoints with PDS T2 modules then with the extra cap I run 1 or 2, T2 Invulnerability fields. Though once T2 shield relays come out I will most likely swap back to the relay method. I find PDS and Invulnerability fields give high hitpoints and medium HP regen, while relays give medium hitpoints and high HP regen and less resistance.

Another note is since the Cold war edition of Eve shield extender got a large hitpoints boost and a small fitting requirement change. Before this change you could fit 4 shield extenders then on the 5t slot you where better off with a shield recharger over an extender as you got more of a HP regen boost from the shield recharger. Now with the change you often have to fit more then 5 shield extenders before shield recharges give more of a boost.


__________________________________________________________________


”1) Where did you get the 2.4 figure from? (I came up with a similar multiplier for cap recharge, so im thinking they might work the same.)”
Someone told me the 2.4 figure for cap and after light testing it felt around about the same for shields. I have to stress I did not accurately test to check it was 2.4 but I would be surprised if it was vastly different from that. I really should do some better testing unless someone beats me to it. Part of my testing was letting ships shoot me if the number was a lot below 2.4 I would have died. I would say worse case its 2.2 best case its 2.6.





”2) What ship do you use this on, and what cap recharge are you left with? (Can you for example still run a webber to get the NPC frigs?)”
My recharge is 6398 seconds with level 1 cap regen skill. Using 1 less relay and swaping to 1 PDU cuts this down in half to 3000 seconds. Two PDU’s and scarping two relays made a large difference at expense of shield regen. I live with the low cap recharge as its enough to shoot my hybrid weapons for without running out of cap. A webber is about 1 cap per second so it would lower my fire time down to 10 minutes. My ship is a Dominix and I did the maths for the webber not tested that one. So it might be a little off.

But if you use weapons that dont drain cap you have enough cap for more then 1 cap draining module.

Pandora Panda
Caldari
Posted - 2004.12.04 22:30:00 - [4]
 

After running the numbers on a passive shield tank, I came to the conclusion that a scorp could run a passive-only shield tank with some success, and nothing else could. Your numbers on the dominix support this, since the recharge rate is barely better then a large tech2 booster, and you've sacrificed cap and hardening to get it. I can see no way in which a dominix would not be benefitted from either shield tanking properly and using 7 PDUs for cap, or going the armor tank route. Note that 7 PDUs, a large extender, and a large shield booster II with 3 hardeners would have the boost of the large booster augmented by a reasonable number of passively regenerated shield hitpoints.

The best passive-augmented tank setup that I can envision is on a scorp and as follows:

4x Siege (240 CPU, 7000 Grid)
2x Heavy Nosferatu (100 CPU, 4000 Grid)

1x Large Shield Booster II (100 CPU, 150 Grid)
3x Large Shield Extender IIs (300 CPU, 1200 Grid)
3x Named Hardeners (100 CPU, 3 Grid)
1x Cap Recharger II (15 CPU, 1 Grid)

4x PDU II (64 CPU)

Total: 919/937 CPU 12354/13674 Grid

With lvl 4 skills, this should have 13.5k shields and a recharge rate of 1121 seconds, giving a passive recharge (according to the equation that you're suggusting) of 29 shield HP/sec. It will also give a capacitor of 6.2k with a recharge rate of 390 seconds. That, combined with the nosferatu, should give you the cap to maintain the shield booster and hardeners.

A shield tank without hardeners is worth nothing. A ship that cannot even maintain the cap to run hardeners and weapons is worth nothing. I'm not saying passive shield tanking is worthless, but it is on a dominix.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.04 22:58:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 04/12/2004 23:12:51
“The best passive-augmented tank setup that I can envision is on a scorp and as follows:” & ”With lvl 4 skills, this should have 13.5k shields and a recharge rate of 1121 seconds, giving a passive recharge (according to the equation that you're suggusting) of 29 shield HP/sec.”
That’s very poor 29 per second is not worth it. I don’t mean to be rude but that’s hardly a passive setup. Try taking out the cap recharger, PDU’s and booster. Swap in shield relays, and an extra mid slot large shield extender or recharge. Then see what you shield points per second are. There is little point in having the cap recharger and PDU’s as without the booster hardly anything drains cap.

Your setup is only getting 89 shield points per second with the booster mixed with a passive setup. Do you mind trying a fully passive setup without the booster and seeing what you get? Keep the hardeners in if you use them. You should be able to break 100 points per second without the cap drain from a booster.



“Your numbers on the dominix support this, since the recharge rate is barely better then a large tech2 booster,”
I didn’t compare against the T2 boosters as I didn’t think it was far to compare a mostly T1 setup against a T2 setup. Not sure how you got a Dominix passive setup is barely better then a T2 booster. A Dominix Passive setup with T1 low slot modules is 432 over 4 seconds while the T2 large booster is 240 over 4 seconds. Well to be far with passive hardeners my passive charge over 4 seconds is 294.2 the 432 number is without hardners. I am still playing around with how many hardners to use.



“A shield tank without hardeners is worth nothing. A ship that cannot even maintain the cap to run hardeners and weapons is worth nothing. I'm not saying passive shield tanking is worthless, but it is on a dominix.”
I think your missing the point. The point of a passive setup is to use passive modules. You don’t use hardeners that use up cap along with boosters that would be a active setup not passive though you can use 1 or two active modules with little problem. You can use cap draining modules but its not recommended unless its like a hardner that use's up 2 cap a second or less. The only cap draining modules I use are sometimes 1 after burner and 6 blasters. My Dominix can keep its weapons fireing for 11 Minuets and that can be extended by training up my skills. Its not often battles last 11 minuets or longer if they do use 1 Nos or weapons that dont drain cap. Mind you if your a laser user I would keep away from a passive setup. I have head laser user's useing passive setups but it does not seem like a good idea to me.

I agree a ship without hardeners is nothing that’s why I use some on my Dominix I have with T1 modules
Em 32%
Explosive 60%
Kinetic 40%
Thermal 50%

In'q
Minmatar
Freedom Fighters Syndicate
Posted - 2004.12.04 23:10:00 - [6]
 

Thank you for posting this Pottsey, I was considering evemailing you for an example, but this takes care of that. Keep up the good work on funny setups. Very Happy

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.04 23:20:00 - [7]
 

Going back to Pandora Panda hrybid setup mixing passive and boosters has anyone made this work and managed to break 100+ shield points per second? I failed every time I tried as I would run out of cap to fast.

Pandora Panda
Caldari
Posted - 2004.12.05 02:07:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Going back to Pandora Panda hrybid setup mixing passive and boosters has anyone made this work and managed to break 100+ shield points per second? I failed every time I tried as I would run out of cap to fast.
Drop a kinetic hardener or the cap recharger for a shield boost amp. That'll put it over 100 at peak, with the advantage of actually having some shield recharge once you drop below the peak passive recharge point.

Artemeis Borshann
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2004.12.05 02:16:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Artemeis Borshann on 05/12/2004 02:22:57
Passive tanking is certainly an interesting idea.

I haven't tried it yet, but since it's mainly for agent running and NPC fighting, if you know what you'll be fighting and what damage they mete out, using 1 or 2 specific passive shield amplifiers might help. Just get the whole range and swap the right ones in before a mission.

Pottsey, have you looked into that yourself?

caligi malus
Posted - 2004.12.05 02:55:00 - [10]
 

This is an interesting Topic, one i have considered before. Im glad that you managed to come up with a workable setup :)

I Think the key issue though, is the length of time that this setup can last. 11min is a long time in combat, and ideally suited to Multi-Wave agent missions. However a PVP battle that lasts past 60s is unusual.

Pottsey: have you tried passively tanking a cruiser class? or would that simply give too low an output due to lack of slots?

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.05 10:12:00 - [11]
 

”Pottsey: have you tried passively tanking a cruiser class? or would that simply give too low an output due to lack of slots?”

It works well on a mark 5 Indi which has loads of slots but little cap making boosters hard to run. But that does mean cutting down on cargo space from lack of cargo expander at the same time you don’t have expander slowing your top speed down.

I did a quick test with an Exequror Crusier but I was in the wrong base so didn’t have the best equipment. I got 18.4 per second using T1 modules and 2 slots free for hardeners or other modules. Not that good really worse then a T1 mid booster.




“Just get the whole range and swap the right ones in before a mission.”
Right now I just use one setup that covers everything as I never no what weapons will be used if someone does catch’s me and force’s me into PvP. But for the hard level 3 missions and for sure level 4 missions that’s a good idea I didn’t think off.

Thomas Torquemada
Minmatar
Universal Peace Corp
Posted - 2004.12.05 11:25:00 - [12]
 

Anyone tried the Ferox esp with its better shield resistances.

Ryo Jang
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2004.12.07 02:46:00 - [13]
 

im interested in how this might work on smaller ships. i currently have a cormorant, great ship, but with all the disadvantages a small ship has when it comes to cap and shield. which sucks, because i have 4 med slots and only 1 low slot..

i currently run an active shield tank, with 2 small cap rechargers and 2 small shield boosters. 1 is usually enough, but the second is there if i need 2x the boosting. working well so far.

Ryo Jang
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2004.12.07 02:46:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Ryo Jang on 07/12/2004 02:49:54
double posting sucks!

Deianeira
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.12.07 09:25:00 - [15]
 

Did anybody do some testing on the assault ships (frigs and especially cruisers)? They have natural high resistances (like mentioned before). An assault cruiser with this setup might be very hard to counter.

MaximvS
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.12.07 09:41:00 - [16]
 

I agree it would be nice to see some examples for something like a Moa and also a Ferox if possible please. Rolling Eyes

Grim Vandal
Burn Proof
Posted - 2004.12.07 09:55:00 - [17]
 

the magic value is 2.5

but 2.4 is pretty close so it works Razz

Very Happy


qrac
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.12.07 10:49:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Grim Vandal
the magic value is 2.5

but 2.4 is pretty close so it works Razz

Very Happy



the magic value explained by dust puppy.

Jonas Bane
Red Hammer Industries
Posted - 2004.12.07 12:30:00 - [19]
 

With this "no MWD" thing in deadspace missions, I tried on a whim playing around with passive shield setups on my Thorax. Pretty amazed at how well it worked. I could run an oversided AB all day now that cap wasn't an issue. I wouldn't trust it yet in PvP or a tough agent mission, but it has made me change over to shield improving skills for the time being. =)

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.07 17:41:00 - [20]
 

” Did anybody do some testing on the assault ships (frigs and especially cruisers)?”
Sorry not got the skill to fly those so I cannot test.




“the magic value explained by dust puppy.”
But that post by Dust Puppy was about reactor cap. We are assuming shield recharge’s in the same way as reactor cap. But no one has ever done a detailed test as far as I now. There is always the chance shield cap recharges slower or faster then the reactor cap.

starfox2004
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.12.07 19:28:00 - [21]
 

Hi Pottsey !

Quick question if possible ? im absolutely naff at maths so i would like to take this opportunity to ask your advice and see if you could reccomend the best passive results for a tempest !

Thanx for your time =)

p.s i would really appreciate it and be your minmatar slave for life Wink

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.07 20:20:00 - [22]
 

Being a Gallente pilot I cannot fly and test the Tempest. I have been told it makes a good ship but don’t know for sure. If I had one I would be tempted to try 6 shield relays in the low slots. 3 large shield extender in the mid slot. 1 shield recharger mid slot. For the last mid slot either a passive EM shield hardener or another shield extender. I might even scarp the shield recharger and fit in a 2nd hardener.

X'Alor
Posted - 2004.12.07 20:28:00 - [23]
 

I hadn't messed with it but looks as tho if cap issues were a concern that this type of setup would be ideal for a battery or more likely a cap booster if one had or used cap draining items or worried about defending against full cap drain by nos attack.

but then again that's what the passive setup seems to be built to defend against in the first place.

nice, very interesting. scary but interesting.

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.12.09 16:06:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Terradoct on 09/12/2004 16:10:44

Pottsey, how big number you got in formula (cap capascity)/(cap recharge)*2,4 on your Domenyx using passive shielding?
How big this number must be?
Have you tryed it in PvP?

Also I'm intrested in geting T2 Shield recharges and Shield Power Relays. Anyone have info on where or from whom I cang et thous items?

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.09 17:15:00 - [25]
 

"Pottsey, how big number you got in formula (cap capascity)/(cap recharge)*2,4 on your Domenyx using passive shielding?"
The best I pulled off is 108 a second while in a group. Without a group 102.

My favourite setup is lower and I forgot the details. It was 2 hardeners which lowered the total shield recharge down to 80 or 90ish but due to the hardeners I could take more EM and Thermal damage.




"How big this number must be?"
That’s hard to say and it depends on what you do. If you want to have the same shield recharge as a T1 large shield booster then you need have 40 per second. If you want to have the same shield recharge as a T2 large shield booster you need to get 60 per second. An Extra large shield booster T1 is 80 per second.




”Have you tryed it in PvP?”
Yes I had friendly PvP match’s against corp mates in Scorp Battleships. None of them managed to take my shields down even when they used EM and I had no EM hardeners on. Only ever gone against Scorp battleships so I have no idea how it holds out against other Battleships.




”Also I'm intrested in geting T2 Shield recharges and Shield Power Relays. Anyone have info on where or from whom I cang et thous items?”
Good luck, it took me months to find T2 shield recharges. I ended up placing buy orders and asking on market between 2 to 4million one I bought at 20 million but 4 is the normal price. I never did find anyone who could build them, only people who had them laying around for sale. As for the T2 shield relays I don’t think anyone can build them yet, as I have not found any to buy.


Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.12.09 17:50:00 - [26]
 

thank you, I'll keep trying on geting my hand on thous T2 recharges.

Workdawg
Minmatar
Dawg Inc
Posted - 2004.12.09 18:57:00 - [27]
 

this sounds like a very interesting topic, i never knew that i could work so well. i fly a tempest and have a very good armor tank going on right now, so i dont really intend to switch to shield, but i was wondering one thing.
you mention cap recharge curve being very similar, if not the same as the shield curve. could i use the same method you use to calculate shield tanking, for my own cap recharge?
(max capacity/recharge time)* 2.4
also, if you know the answer to this, at what point is the 2.4 multiplier in effect, 20-30% cap?

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.09 19:19:00 - [28]
 

“could i use the same method you use to calculate shield tanking, for my own cap recharge?
(max capacity/recharge time)* 2.4
also, if you know the answer to this, at what point is the 2.4 multiplier in effect, 20-30% cap?”

Yes you can use (max capacity/recharge time)* 2.4. In fact I borrowed the reactor cap math and used in on the shields so its more accurate/correct for the reactor cap. 2.4 multiplier is in effect at 30%cap give or take 2%. Shields don’t seem to be the same which is why I say 20-30 for shields.

Workdawg
Minmatar
Dawg Inc
Posted - 2004.12.09 19:36:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
“could i use the same method you use to calculate shield tanking, for my own cap recharge?
(max capacity/recharge time)* 2.4
also, if you know the answer to this, at what point is the 2.4 multiplier in effect, 20-30% cap?”

Yes you can use (max capacity/recharge time)* 2.4. In fact I borrowed the reactor cap math and used in on the shields so its more accurate/correct for the reactor cap. 2.4 multiplier is in effect at 30%cap give or take 2%. Shields don’t seem to be the same which is why I say 20-30 for shields.



thanks for your quick reply, when you say the multiplier is in effect at 30%, does that mean that below 30%, i will actually get faster recharge?
also, in follow up to my first post, would using a combonation of cap batteries and rechargers yield a potentially better figure as far as cap recharged per second? as opposed to just going with straight rechargers

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.09 19:54:00 - [30]
 

”Thanks for your quick reply, when you say the multiplier is in effect at 30%, does that mean that below 30%, i will actually get faster recharge?“
It gets slower under 30% the lower it gets the slower it gets.




”also, in follow up to my first post, would using a combonation of cap batteries and rechargers yield a potentially better figure as far as cap recharged per second? as opposed to just going with straight rechargers“
Cap batteries and recharges are better then pure recharges. The same is for shields. Shield extenders and shield recharges are better then pure shield recharges.


Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (16)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only