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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.05.04 12:51:00 - [31]
 

TL;DR from the wall of text: "Our logs show nothing, server works fine".

javer
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.05.04 14:50:00 - [32]
 

well as a veteran and beta tester the response time is good now, its just that the gm's seem to reply with copy paste and they don't actually read what they are answering about

i can handle waiting better than the pre-canned know nothing answer that junior gm's seem to issue all to easy

so in my cases I will just request escalation if I get a canned answer that misses what is my question and ask the senior gm to read the original question again

the focus of the gm's seem to be in the logs but they also fail at reading the logs, or putting question marks
when what the logs show happening as impossible, such as ship exploding inside stn, xx ship getting left on a gate and just my pod jumping through (session timer is 30s so i cant eject and jump at same time yet a gm claimed i did...)

when i ask were xx ship took off and they respond we cant find anything in our logs
or they give a answer i know isn't correct then refusing reimbursement means that you can be sure i wont let the case rest until i have gotten either a new ship or a explanation that is supported by logs

Kilashandra
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2010.05.04 14:55:00 - [33]
 

The Eve GM program accidently all the game logs...

Liandra Xi
Amarr
The New Era
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2010.05.04 16:10:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Liandra Xi on 04/05/2010 16:11:07
Oh yes the GM's are fantastic - unless you have a billing issue that is. About 6 months ago I changed CC's I was using, and when trying to charge my account for another month not only did CCP manage to charge me 3 times to my credit card for the one transaction, they didn't complete the transaction and add any time to my account.

About 15 emails back and forth to the GM's and more than 5 weeks later, I had my Bank officially challenge the transactions with CCP's merchant, refund me for the 3 charges, and I am told CCP's merchant was charged by my bank for the investigation and the resulting chargeback. The entire time the GM's couldn't even access the billing charges log to verify the charges, and insisted right up until my bank refunded me for the fradulent charges that there was nothing they could do about it.

GM's might have improved in some ways like re-imbursing ships, but if it comes to actual real money, don't expect any assistance from them at all. These days I only use PayPal to pay for my account, you cannot trust CCP's billing system at all.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2010.05.04 16:13:00 - [35]
 

The nerdrage is strong in this thread.

Pretty cool insight into the GM tools, thanks for that guys.

Elpyh
Amarr
Frozen Dawn Inc
Arctic Light
Posted - 2010.05.04 16:13:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Elpyh on 04/05/2010 16:14:25
Well working in customer support myself too, I think CCP is doing pretty good. Now I'm sure that most people who have done this job themselves at some point have a pretty good idea of well CCP is actually doing. For those that have no idea about how it works, yea it might seem like they are doing a crappy job but they get hundreds of petitions daily and it requires a lot of manpower to handle them all. Especially seeing how many players there are in eve.. Im sure the amount of petitions is insane.

The reason why you might feel often that you get copy+paste answers is that customer support has to do things quickly. If they would write a story in every petition, their petition queue would get too big and then they would just reply weeks later to your petitions. And I also dont get the people who whine about logs and stuff. If all you can do is whine then why the **** are you even playing the game? Doesnt that fact alone show that it's a great game and CCP is doing a good job. And most of you idiots probably havent ever even tried programming and think its a piece of cake. If it was that easy, no game would have any bugs. Aaaarrrgh, I'm just sick and tired of idiots whining about everything.

I thought it was a good reading. Yes not that relevent to the expansion or much to the game itself either but who cares. You wouldnt be able to play this game without those people. All my experiences with CCP have been good. Yea it has taken a while for them to response in my petitions but I can understand for the reasons I mentioned above and my problems have always been fixed and questions answered.

Scorpion Venom1
Posted - 2010.05.04 17:05:00 - [37]
 

perhaps a priority selection that the petitioner can select, determining if the player will accept a copy-paste answer, or if they don't mind waiting the few weeks to get the answer back. granted it could be abused, but its an idea that can be worked with
i stress to CCP that they do need to fix these issues, to the best of their ability, although i have had nothing but good interactions.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.05.04 17:14:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Scorpion Venom1
perhaps a priority selection that the petitioner can select, determining if the player will accept a copy-paste answer, or if they don't mind waiting the few weeks to get the answer back.


This should never be an issue in first place. Copy-paste is always bad, unless it's the definite answer to the issue.

Scorpion Venom1
Posted - 2010.05.04 17:29:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Scorpion Venom1
perhaps a priority selection that the petitioner can select, determining if the player will accept a copy-paste answer, or if they don't mind waiting the few weeks to get the answer back.


This should never be an issue in first place. Copy-paste is always bad, unless it's the definite answer to the issue.


well ofc, but it determins simple answer vs complex answer
if a simple answer would do, you dont want to wait the 2 or 3 weeks you need for a very detailed answer including server logs

Mr John22ta
Supercarrier Aggression
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.05.04 21:15:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Mr John22ta on 04/05/2010 21:16:21
While it's always nice to get a look at what goes on within CCP, I gotta say this Dev blog was a bit of a joke.

We all know how often CCP replaces ships, as the logs seems to show nothing, even after a node crash affecting 500+ players trying to fight. This has happened multiple times to me, and I have given up. So you telling us how much effort it was to replace ships, and how easy it is now yet you still don't do it seems pretty pointless.

Whilst I appreciate the efforts you guys make, you need to be more consistent, get better response times, and perhaps get rid of the GM's that seem to have no idea about Eve. As a customer, I don't expect to have to explain game mechanics to a customer service representitive.

Over all, Customer service is lacking, and could be greatly improved. I appreciate your guys work hard, but there is a huge amount of room for improvement.

Gajoleus
Gallente
Solar Imperium
Posted - 2010.05.05 07:43:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Mr John22ta
Edited by: Mr John22ta on 04/05/2010 21:16:21
While it's always nice to get a look at what goes on within CCP, I gotta say this Dev blog was a bit of a joke.

We all know how often CCP replaces ships, as the logs seems to show nothing, even after a node crash affecting 500+ players trying to fight. This has happened multiple times to me, and I have given up. So you telling us how much effort it was to replace ships, and how easy it is now yet you still don't do it seems pretty pointless.

Whilst I appreciate the efforts you guys make, you need to be more consistent, get better response times, and perhaps get rid of the GM's that seem to have no idea about Eve. As a customer, I don't expect to have to explain game mechanics to a customer service representitive.

Over all, Customer service is lacking, and could be greatly improved. I appreciate your guys work hard, but there is a huge amount of room for improvement.


+1

Full scale ******ation from CCP

MissyDark
Posted - 2010.05.05 12:31:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Mr John22ta


Whilst I appreciate the efforts you guys make, you need to be more consistent, get better response times, and perhaps get rid of the GM's that seem to have no idea about Eve. As a customer, I don't expect to have to explain game mechanics to a customer service representitive.


Knowledge of basic math also would help tremendously. Having to expleain to csr how percentage works is a pain. Especially when he can't grasp the concept after third reply and closes the ticket with "this is too difficult to track" bottom line.

Also, my logs don't show helpful customer support in Eve.

Noun Verber
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.05 14:45:00 - [43]
 

Would you say that the new tools were a direct result of 'Mass Day' and everyone being forced to use the interface?

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.05.05 15:58:00 - [44]
 

I would just like to say that CCP has some of the best customer support in any online game I played. Perfect? Of course not, there's always room for improvement, but you guys are doing a fantastic job.

Maybe you should provide training for other game companies, I certainly know a few that could use it.

Part of the reason may be due to high efficiency because of good tools. If support has more time, it results in shorter queues and generally better service. I also think the detailed category system may have a big influence letting you guys prioritize and specialize. Much different than having all support requests going into one big pool as most other companies do it.

So keep up the good work.

Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente
Shadow Templars
Posted - 2010.05.05 15:59:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
GM Spiral talks about the history of the Game Masters and what their current roles are. Here is the newest Dev Blog.


Good blog! Will definitely read again!

Keep up the good work all of you!


GM Spiral


Game Masters
Posted - 2010.05.05 16:57:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: GM Spiral on 05/05/2010 16:59:19
This is not really the subject of the blog, but we’ll try to address some of the concerns here you have about our Logs™.

We do log and see great many things, close to everything we need. Trouble arises when logs are requested for things which we either are not able to log due to simple hardware limitations or due to the events causing the issue not originating within the server structure.

  • Hardware limitations:
    This would for an example include coordinates and vector in space over time. There may be at any given time several thousand players in-space, on grids with hundreds of other objects with which the pilots interact. Keeping track of all their speed, direction and position in space as it changes over time would not be very conductive to the operational status of Tranquility. It is simply not viable to attempt, since as we get above a certain size it is provably impossible to completely capture the state of a complex system such as on Tranquility on a continuous basis.
    This affects many different types of petitions, mostly those involving starbase force fields in some manner as well as those approaching stargates and stations.


  • Outside of CCP’s control:
    We do keep a very close eye on the health of Tranquility. Any anomalies in the operational status of the server are noted in reports which Customer Support has access to. Losses falling within a reasonable time frame of such anomalies are given due consideration for reimbursement as per our Reimbursement Policy. However, we can not police or even monitor the speed or stability of connections outside of the server structure. A player or his ISP may not have the ability to log or monitor this either as neither CCP or an ISP would guarantee a connection across the globe through hardware which neither has any access to. A player’s connection to his Team Server might be uninterrupted while his connection to EVE drops or has high latency, all depending on which way the connections are routed around the world. We can not see these events and therefore we can not verify them.

    This is also not just a matter of us failing to verify something (lag related losses) that we have previously wowed to set straight. Quite the contrary, our reimbursement policy has always clearly stated that we do not offer reimbursement for lag related losses. We only promise to reimburse losses that are verifiably caused by server issues or bugs. These are the terms we offer and which every player accepts (at least officially) and still we spend an enormous amount of manpower every year debating lag related losses to little fanfare. Not that we are complaining, but simply adding to the perspective.


In the end, EVE Online is a massively competitive game where both gains and losses have a bit more meaning above and beyond the norm in other contemporary titles. We have to take this into account when forming our policies that govern our interaction with the players and their requests. When we started we took the stance to only cover losses which trace their roots to verifiable issues that are logged or reported within the server. This was done as the server is the only place which we can fully monitor and the only place which all of our players have in common across the myriad possibilities in hardware and connection quality. We are certain that this way we can maintain full fairness to the entire playerbase as a whole.

And now slightly more on topic:
This blog is one of many that customer support is planning over the coming months to make us a bit more visible. It is not intended as a filler in lieu of blogs from Game Design on the future of EVE Online. We intend on keeping a strong eye on the feedback received from these blogs in addition to what we receive through normal channels. This will hopefully assist our lead GMs and director in shaping up our policies for the future.

Thank you for having the patience to read this.

Mal Lokrano
Gallente
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.05.05 17:52:00 - [47]
 

Gotta be nice to only have to hit a few buttons to reimburse a ship, i bet the old database searching was a real pain after awhile. Granted there was much less players back then.

Man its hard to believe Eve has been around for nearly 7 years, Come next February I will celebrate 3 years of being in Eve. I hope to have many more.

Liandra Xi
Amarr
The New Era
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2010.05.05 18:48:00 - [48]
 

@GM Spiral - i notice in your reply you completely ignore issues raised in this thread such as billing issues which couldn't have been handled more appallingly by CCP GM's.

If you can't even get billing issues right, how do you expect anyone to have faith you can even handle ship replacement correctly. I have to echo the number of times this has not even been possible after massive node crashes. So you make a thread saying how wonderful you are at getting the basics of customer service right when you don't even do that. Honestly this dev blog is the biggest e-peen demonstration ive seen from CCP in quite a while.

Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
Posted - 2010.05.05 21:51:00 - [49]
 

It would still be nice to have some of the other issues raised in this thread addressed, at least minimally.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.05.06 05:35:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Batolemaeus on 06/05/2010 05:38:37
Originally by: GM Spiral
A player’s connection to his Team Server might be uninterrupted while his connection to EVE drops or has high latency, all depending on which way the connections are routed around the world. We can not see these events and therefore we can not verify them.


Which is completely irrelevant. It's obvious that CCP has little effect on how the net works. Nobody is debating it, this is not the issue.

The issue is that GM have been routinely denying reimbursement for losses that were due to servers dying. Node crashes, grids not loading, people not leaving the game even hours after logging off, people logging on only to notice that the server spawned them on an enemy pos instead of where they entered the game and countless more issues players can encounter that are caused to 100% by the server are apparently only reimbursed if the player catches specific GMs.

Seeing buddies getting their ships back from fights where others just got a canned response is not exactly showing the GMs in a good light. You shouldn't be surprised if people stop taking you seriously when there is so little service in your customer serivce department.

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2010.05.06 06:16:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Darth Vapour on 06/05/2010 06:16:42
Originally by: GM Spiral
Edited by: GM Spiral on 05/05/2010 16:59:19


[*]Outside of CCP’s control:
We do keep a very close eye on the health of Tranquility. Any anomalies in the operational status of the server are noted in reports which Customer Support has access to. Losses falling within a reasonable time frame of such anomalies are given due consideration for reimbursement as per our Reimbursement Policy. However, we can not police or even monitor the speed or stability of connections outside of the server structure. A player or his ISP may not have the ability to log or monitor this either as neither CCP or an ISP would guarantee a connection across the globe through hardware which neither has any access to. A player’s connection to his Team Server might be uninterrupted while his connection to EVE drops or has high latency, all depending on which way the connections are routed around the world. We can not see these events and therefore we can not verify them.






Yeah, that must be it. When 100 players located on several continents and dozens of different ISP's all lock up when loading a grid it must be a bunch of non-CCP related network outages that cause their problems. There might be players on the other side who use the same ISP without any problems but let's not draw any conclusions here.

Skyrape
Posted - 2010.05.06 09:37:00 - [52]
 

I don't know about the rest of the BLAH in that post but I'll tell you that today, GM's have no idea about most game mechanics, modules or ships, they don't read petitions, barely speak english, and most of the times they only give players the default "we don't have a log of it" message.

Thousands of players have posted petitions which were ignored in that manner.

Furthermore, players that discover bugs while playing and sustain losses are as well not reimbursed, even if the development team acknowledges the presence of such bugs. The GM team always sends the same dull reply. On top of that, if the bugs are major (such as for instance the bug that allows players to destroy things inside POS shields), and the players who lose things because of this post on forums, the forum threads are closed immediately and the bugs are denied to exist.

Maybe someday CCP will learn that customer support is as important as the product itself.

Till then, cheerios kids!

GM Spiral


Game Masters
Posted - 2010.05.06 10:11:00 - [53]
 

In reply to Liandra Xi's and Selene D'Celeste's concerns. I am going to be gathering up some information today and hopefully make available in this thread before my shift is over.

I will also be looking at any other questions and concerns that were raised but not directly answered by my previous post.

Stay tuned.

Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari
eNinjas Incorporated
Posted - 2010.05.06 10:14:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 06/05/2010 10:15:51
Originally by: EliteSlave
We haven't fixed lag, we haven't bothered to try... we haven't admitted there is lag...

This is obvious troll, but WTH:
1: This is a blog about the GMs, who aren't responsible for fixing the game.
2: Lag has been fixed many times. Fleet fights that lag now are at least ten times the size of fleet fights that lagged when eve was launched. There is always more lag, unless a cap is put on number of people in a system, which would not help the game at all.

This has been said many many times...

GM Spiral


Game Masters
Posted - 2010.05.06 13:51:00 - [55]
 

I’m sorry that this may come in several parts, please bear with me.

@Liandra Xi – Billing Concerns:
We are sorry to hear you had these problems when upgrading your credit card details. We assure you that we take all billing problems very seriously as they usually involve your money - the customer’s - and we know very well how stressful money concerns can be. It is far from being our intention to cause stress for our customers.
Without going into details of your specific issue, then we can only tell you - the customer - what we see on our end. We do not know how things look from the bank/card issuer’s side and so often we have to recommend our customers to speak with them in order to get to the bottom of the matter.

There is a clear difference between the real money issues we deal with in the Billing queue, and the game play reimbursement requests we get. Losses of things inside the game are more complicated to solve as we have to take many things into account such as overall fairness, market balance and the possibility of abuse if we slack on verification. Interfering with the EVE universe is something we take very seriously, as we should. With real money issues such as credit card problems we are more free to stick to the good old “the customer is always right” approach and maintain a very high rate of solution, which again shows very clearly in the results of our satisfaction survey.


@Selene D’Celeste – Hacking Concerns:
We have been, and are, experiencing a lot of account hacking, that’s no secret. The same actually goes for most other major MMOs out there and everyone is trying their best to keep their games clean of this nuisance. As we are all probably aware of; hackers are extremely persistent and stop at nothing. They know all the tricks in the book when it comes to obtaining login details and are able to remain mostly anonymous when doing so. It’s also no secret that the hackers are in the ISK selling business. When they hack into your account, they proceed to sell everything off it and then donate the ISK to ISK buyers. That is the ONLY reason why they do what they do, and the people buying their ISK are directly responsible for their continued presence in EVE Online.

As soon as we notice an account has been accessed by a foreign IP - one we’ve identified as a hacking IP – we sort out the damage done to the best of our ability and proceed to close down the account, subsequently sending an email to the owner asking him/her to contact us. Nowadays, owners of active accounts that are hacked and then banned by us never have to wait longer than 7 days for being able to access their accounts again. Usually the waiting period is much shorter than that though.
We have several GMs dedicated to monitoring daily hacking activities and banning accounts that have been logged into by hackers, but with no damage done to them yet. It’s safe to say that by doing so we’ve saved thousands of accounts from being damaged in this way with our very determined counter offensive.
While it is uncertain whether we’ll ever be able to win the war against the hackers completely, we are constantly coming up with new ways that hamper their ability to function and slows them down considerably. We are relentless in our efforts of doing so and we’ll continue doing so as long as ISK buyers keep paying them to hack your accounts.

P.s. If you need ISK, buy PLEX. The hacking free solution to your needs.

More to come...

GM Spiral


Game Masters
Posted - 2010.05.06 13:54:00 - [56]
 

@Cinori Aluben & javer – Customer Care Vs. Efficiency
It’s a balance act between quality, quantity and cost. We have about the same number of GMs per customer as our competitors. We aim for fast service without compromising quality. Things we can do to improve speed without chopping into our quality include improving our tools and adding new ones, training our GMs, specializing GMs and using standard replies... where they are applicable. Overuse of standardized reply templates is forbidden and should be reported when spotted. You can request a new GM or an escalation if you find yourself being hammered by standard replies incessantly.

@Selene D’Celeste again – Inconsistencies in GM Petition Handling
This is something that we are always on the lookout for. We do have some tools at our disposal to assist in maintaining fair and consistent handling of those cases that we receive. This includes a centralized information bank concerning all our current and up to date policies, exploits and other information pertaining to our work; audits done on ALL members of the customer support team regularly; peer monitoring and so forth. With 330.000 people playing an incredibly competitive game and with GMs spread out over four countries consistency is going to be hard to maintain. With all things considered we believe we are doing a good job overall in those matters even if pointing out our mistakes is not hard. Can we improve? Most certainly, yes.

@Batolemaeus – Concerns & Controversy: Fleet Battles & Consistency
Here’s a subject that is a pretty hot potato. Before going into too much detail I’d like to direct you to the blog by CCP Atlas, read the last section “A Word from Customer Support”.

URL: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=727

To put it plainly, if we reimburse one loss from a large scale engagement we are obligated to reverse them all and most likely required to set the system back to the status it was in prior to that engagement. I.e. this means that if there is at least one valid case for reimbursement in a fleet engagement then that engagement has to be fully reverted and erased from history. One player experiencing server related issues does mean that it must have affected everyone involved. Given that this would mean that the political landscape in New Eden would almost never change and that all fleet engagements would pretty much just be a horrid waste of time for all involved (as they would never amount to change anything), we took the stance of non-involvement in those engagements. We will still hear the arguments from the leaders of individual fleets involved in such engagements, but all rulings are taken on an alliance to alliance level rather than the more personal pilot to pilot level.

Some pilots receiving reimbursement where it was not warranted (such as in a fleet engagement) is of course something that we attempt to stamp out. But mistakes do happen still and the GMs involved in such decisions are admonished appropriately. We do appreciate when this is pointed out to us. The reverse is also true with some pilots not receiving reimbursement where it should be given according to our policies while their friends are granted the benefit. Remember you can always request a new GM to review your petition or request an escalation at your own discretion.

GM Spiral


Game Masters
Posted - 2010.05.06 13:55:00 - [57]
 

Thanks to the Three G's (Gusto, Guard and Grimmi) for helping me gather up all the information.

My apologies to the player base for massive walls of text.

Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari
eNinjas Incorporated
Posted - 2010.05.06 16:07:00 - [58]
 

Despite my posts being interspersed with his, I am not GM Spiral. Even if he has made it look like I have GM red bars above Laughing

EliteSlave
Minmatar
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.05.06 18:51:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: GM Spiral

@Batolemaeus – Concerns & Controversy: Fleet Battles & Consistency
Here’s a subject that is a pretty hot potato. Before going into too much detail I’d like to direct you to the blog by CCP Atlas, read the last section “A Word from Customer Support”.

URL: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=727

To put it plainly, if we reimburse one loss from a large scale engagement we are obligated to reverse them all and most likely required to set the system back to the status it was in prior to that engagement. I.e. this means that if there is at least one valid case for reimbursement in a fleet engagement then that engagement has to be fully reverted and erased from history. One player experiencing server related issues does mean that it must have affected everyone involved. Given that this would mean that the political landscape in New Eden would almost never change and that all fleet engagements would pretty much just be a horrid waste of time for all involved (as they would never amount to change anything), we took the stance of non-involvement in those engagements. We will still hear the arguments from the leaders of individual fleets involved in such engagements, but all rulings are taken on an alliance to alliance level rather than the more personal pilot to pilot level.

Some pilots receiving reimbursement where it was not warranted (such as in a fleet engagement) is of course something that we attempt to stamp out. But mistakes do happen still and the GMs involved in such decisions are admonished appropriately. We do appreciate when this is pointed out to us. The reverse is also true with some pilots not receiving reimbursement where it should be given according to our policies while their friends are granted the benefit. Remember you can always request a new GM to review your petition or request an escalation at your own discretion.


Well heres the issue at hand, The node drops, you should revert it back to where it was the previous day, It only makes sense, Now I this may be work, but it is logical to do so, Your server failed, We didnt, thus you should return things as they were previous to node failing.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2010.05.06 21:04:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: GM Spiral
My apologies to the player base for massive walls of text.


No apologies needed. What you're calling massive walls of text are actually very useful and quite reminiscent of what dev blogs used to look like before they all started getting vetted-to-death by marketing. In sum you've written a much better dev blog about the GMs than the official dev blog about GMs. And I, for one, appreciate it.


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