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blankseplocked What is wrong with MMOs these days? Arghh
 
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Brujo Loco
Amarr
Brujeria Teologica
Posted - 2010.05.03 00:11:00 - [1]
 

/ra
I don't know what is happening, but all over the place, my friends and people I know on several other forums have begun to realize the stagnant feeling and sheer poignancy of MMO's these days.

Take EVE for instance, unique and sandboxy, Dust 514 and Incarna seem a solid approach whether some people like it or hate it. They are doing very innovative stuff with the game (I pray daily to the dark lords of the pit for CCP's continued health) but then, when I go outside trying to find another game to quell my fix I stumble upon a brick Wall.

I crave my fantasy fix sometimes, or any other kind of genre fix, but so far, the only games relatively worth playing, and only for some months if not weeks are EQ2, WoW (ugh), LotRO and perhaps AoC or Darkfall ... and then? tons upon tons of uber generic MMO's that try to do the same over and over again ...

Outside of CCP's creation, wich I play less and less these days as I wait for Dust and Incarna (will try planeteering tho) there's really not much out there to choose from.

I mean, is it me or the grinding as a whole concept is becoming dated? How many times we have to fedex and kill XXX rats over and over and over in almost infinite permutations of cliched background lore of saving the princess or ruining our own land for the sheer sake of evil because I worship generic_001 dark god of evil evilness? Some days I roll my eyes at some quests that no matter how good or evil you are put you working together slaying generic_amoral_creatures for the next shiny sword useable by anyone?

I mean, I'm jaded and tired of the grinding, how many critters do I need to kill to have actual fun? how many hot cakes do I have to deliver to feel good? how many generic_ultimate_evil_good_zoroastrian monster I have to kill with other bored players to feel something again ... if at all???

Why gaming studios all over pool million of dollars out of investors to create YET ANOTHER Dragonfairy world with amazing lore ripped off Tolkien/Gygax/Lewis pastiched with sausages made from epic movies of yore loosely based on greek/hindi/asian mythology?\

How many times can you grind out the basic tales of the "ancients" and rehash it over and over and over again? Larger than life monsters are so run of the mill now, prophetic swords of eternal doom are dime a dozen in any goblin discount store.

No greatness, not even a sense of purpose, not even a real focus to original stories.

None of you remember the intro to Tabula Rasa? The Sheer desperation of survival fleeing an alien species trying to eke out another day in a foreing land? How did it end up a crap kill roaches grinder? No wonder it went bust.

I mean, where are the NEW different stories? perhaps we want gritty worlds of absolute terror or evil? or something diff? Like a new world with absolutely no sense or earth mythology based cration tales?

Where is the true Cyberpunk genre mmo?

I wonder if CCP/White Wolf will deliver a true WoD with something more than just overhyped vamps.

I will try anything diff, but am I alone in this feeling?

Fantasy is not elves and dragons and orks and absolute extremes of good and evil.

Why are people still recycling "safe" mentally challenged notions of MMOs?

We need true violence, not | OMG IM EVIL I COLLECT SKULLS MWHAHAHA" or " IM GOOD AND I HAVE SHINY WHITE ARMOR" archetypes.

Where's the complex shades of gray?

I'm well over 13 years old, where are the gritty, unsafe, iconoclastic and perverse , and overall DIFFERENT MMO's?

Like George Carlin said **** THE CHILDREN ... we need more M, 17+ games.

Youth these days have seen more sex, ****, drugs and perverse acts than I will ever see in my whole adult life.

This is just me taking one possible approach, darker more mature games, but something DIFFERENT ... something FRESH, ORIGINAL...

Even Hollywood these days just rehash old 50*60/70's movies/plotlines with nicer actors and CGI for the masses. Where's the originality in that?

Arghhhhh !

/rant off

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2010.05.03 01:57:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 03/05/2010 02:03:38
sadly game companies are run as a business and from a business perspective WoW is like a blinding light that MUST BE FOLLOWED.

Blame the fans too ofc, they're so used to the same stagnent level-grinding button-mashing themepark comfort zones that the concept of change is alien and plain unwelcome. WoW is like the benchmark for MMOs, and it sucks. Neutral

Originally by: Brujo Loco

I wonder if CCP/White Wolf will deliver a true WoD with something more than just overhyped vamps.


If anyone can make a decent MMO out of WoD, it's CCP.

Olleybear
Minmatar
I R' Carebear
Posted - 2010.05.03 03:34:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 03/05/2010 02:03:38
sadly game companies are run as a business...



That right there says it all.

You have to think like a beancounter/businessman to truly understand. Beancounters/businessmen dont think about making the best game. They think about making a buck. Making a buck, for themselves, is all they care about. They can make a buck for themselves by running a company into the ground.

That doesn't make much sense does it.

To explain further, they are getting paid to run the company right now. What do they care if the MMO fails. Afterall its a tough market in the MMO world where lots of MMO's fail right? Who can blame the top guys making 6 figures if it fails, right? They then move on to the next job after milking the current one for as long as possible.

It takes a passion, a want and need, to make anything good. You actually have to care about more than 'making a buck'.

Dont get me wrong, being profitable isn't a bad thing. Being profitable is necessary. No matter how good something is, if you aren't turning a profit, the good thing will cease to exist because you will go bankrupt. Caring wont take you far if you dont have some business sense.

Both not caring and greed, by the businessmen running the companies, are why we dont have more MMO's as good as Eve. In my opinion anyway.

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2010.05.03 03:35:00 - [4]
 

I blame the aging west for the lack of modern innovation.

Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
Posted - 2010.05.03 03:38:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Jin Nib on 03/05/2010 03:38:44
CCP has a huge advantage in that it's still largely held by private investors. It can take a lot more leeway in it's goals and approaches then publicly held companies can. The other thing is of course that MMO's are enormously expensive to create and seem to have a fairly high failure rate. Doing new innovative stuff is rather scary when you take that into consideration. People will of course gravitate towards the tried and true, given what's at stake and who's making them and who is actually able to afford making them.

Honestly the best stuff is all from small little guys, Dwarf Fortress, Trine, etc. Same with table-top stuff, Games Workshop dominates the market with a couple of ****y games and there are plenty of small good ones out there, or look at D+D and the d20 system and their domination of the RPG market when you have options such as WoD.

The only way a good MMO is going to happen now and stay happening is if it starts somewhere else I think.

Brujo Loco
Amarr
Brujeria Teologica
Posted - 2010.05.03 03:39:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 03/05/2010 02:03:38
sadly game companies are run as a business and from a business perspective WoW is like a blinding light that MUST BE FOLLOWED.

Blame the fans too ofc, they're so used to the same stagnent level-grinding button-mashing themepark comfort zones that the concept of change is alien and plain unwelcome. WoW is like the benchmark for MMOs, and it sucks. Neutral

Originally by: Brujo Loco

I wonder if CCP/White Wolf will deliver a true WoD with something more than just overhyped vamps.


If anyone can make a decent MMO out of WoD, it's CCP.



yes, but what I angst about and /wrist myself over and over is the fact people, specially people with access to the internet can be so narrow minded. I might enjoy an FPS and drool over BOOMHEADSHOTS all day long, but overall the MMO market is saturated with this CRAP AGENDA of making WOW CLONES/KILLERs.

I'm tired of it. I hate it every couple to 6 months I go into this lapse where I want to try something new and I'm stuck resubbing to the same old games around.

Yeah, yeah, the average sub life is 6 months, that's how most MMO's remain profitable, but even then most MMO's are right now eyeing RMT as the new next thing. Blizzard, SoE, Turbine, they all moving to RMT, to stay profitable. Isn't it an obvious sign that most games need something more than extreme makeovers and facelifts? They want to squeeze out the most of of their Investments but Niche Markets need to be catered to too!

Pre Wow it was all a Niche Market, post Market I'm walking in the same commercial nightmare that a Modern Mall is.

Yes, WOW ,they make a lot of money, but you won't be taking away some of their cake just by offering the same with different names. It's almost idiotic that people launch these "new" MMO's and then begin losing money right away and don't understand why.

I honestly wish CCP's approach to Incarna and then WOD booms into something great, not out of fanboi hype but out of nerdrage spite.


Exploding Tukey
Gallente
Scrap Metal Salvage Inc
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2010.05.03 04:15:00 - [7]
 


So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.05.03 12:49:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: So Sensational on 03/05/2010 12:51:09
WoW gave the genre to the mainstream, the mainstream craves generic bull****.

Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2010.05.03 13:33:00 - [9]
 

I really wanted to like Age of Conan MMO but its priest class was crap so i gave up in the end.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2010.05.03 13:50:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Brujo Loco

Pre Wow it was all a Niche Market, post Market I'm walking in the same commercial nightmare that a Modern Mall is.


non-'fantasy' MMOs pre-WoW: (2000-2003)
EVE Online (awesome)
Planetside (awesome)
Star Wars Galaxies (good until NGE?)
Earth & Beyond (never played it, heard it was decent, ruined when it got shut down)
Mankind (awesome, ruined by exploits and bad servers)
Darkspace (awesome, ruined by the dev forcing unpopular gameplay changes)
Jumpgate (never played)
probably some I missed

non-'fantasy' MMOs post-WoW: (2003 - 2010)
none I care to remember

Neutral

Taua Roqa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.05.03 14:33:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Taua Roqa on 03/05/2010 14:35:20
pre 2003
anarchy online

post 20003:
tabula rasa (dead)
matrix online(dead)

brains gone (dead)Razz

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2010.05.03 15:02:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Gariuys on 03/05/2010 15:05:53
Originally by: So Sensational
Edited by: So Sensational on 03/05/2010 12:51:09
WoW gave the genre to the mainstream, the mainstream craves generic bull****.


Considering the succes of that generic bull****, that statement is just not true. People want something new, that works as well as the succesfull old.

And no, wraping the same gameplay in a new coat doesn't cut it, maybe a true FPS mmo might work... but the ones I've tried either don't really have FPS mechanics, or look worse then WoW and looks definetly count!

And to be honest, even though we all ***** about WoW, it did manage to do pretty much everything right. While all the others tend to hit it with some game elements, but miss on the others.

Malaclypse Muscaria
Posted - 2010.05.03 15:27:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Malaclypse Muscaria on 03/05/2010 15:28:28
Originally by: Brujo Loco
Where is the true Cyberpunk genre mmo?


Anarchy Online is the MMO that most resembled Cyberpunk, and after having played / tried a lot of different ones over the last decade, it's the one I have the fondest memories of. It was released in 2001, and thus was doing its own thing instead of following some tried-and-true stagnant formula (at the time). It had many flaws, but its atmosphere / background was unique and engaging, while its twinking / character customization system was complex, flexible and full of awesome - nothing has ever come close since.

Its still around, and is soon about to get facelift with a new graphics engine (borrowed from Age of Conan), but it definitely feels dated - despite all its good points - and the player base is at an all time low.


Over the last few years there's been a string of MMO releases that have "failed" (or at least not achieved their goals) one after the other, and I think one of the major reasons is indeed that people are getting tired and jaded at the current MMO formula that WoW successfully codified and every other company set out to reproduce.

MMOs have long development cycles that last for years, but I'm thinking (hoping) game companies are becoming aware of this, and that things will change over the next years. This MMO formula has become so stagnant and overused they better come up with something different if they hope to keep enough subscribers in the long / middle run and get their investment back.

Zedic
Amarr
Universalis Imperium
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2010.05.03 15:41:00 - [14]
 

What's wrong with MMO's is that Dev houses aren't taking lessons from CCP. Stubborn ****birds would rather make a quick cash grab, put out crappy insults to our intelligence while shatting upon whatever franchise they've set their sites on to ruin. I have been playing and testing MMO's for a long, long time. I won't place all of the blame on the shoulders of the game dev's - they're at the mercy of bean counting weenies who'd rather make a $ than a playable, interesting game that brings them more money in the long run. Idiots, the lot of them.

During Alpha / Beta phases I have to wonder if they (they = whomever's working on the fail MMO du jour) actually *listen* to the player feedback. At all. And yes, I am still bitter about Hellgate London. They didn't listen to a ****ing thing we said during alpha, opened up beta and went from bad, to worse, to ****ing unplayable MERE WEEKS before launch. WTF.

So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.05.03 15:58:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Gariuys
Edited by: Gariuys on 03/05/2010 15:05:53
Originally by: So Sensational
Edited by: So Sensational on 03/05/2010 12:51:09
WoW gave the genre to the mainstream, the mainstream craves generic bull****.


Considering the succes of that generic bull****, that statement is just not true.

wat?
Either you're saying that it's successful with sarcasm, in which case you're an idiot, or you're saying that I said the opposite of what I said, which I didn't.

Here, let me give you a timeline:

19XX - 2004 The MMO genre caters to a niche market. The mainstream crowd exists and the industry realizes that they would play a generic levelup carrot on a stick game.
2004: WoW is released, WoW is a generic levelup carrot on a stick game. WoW wins the MMO genre from an industry perspective by making big monies, giving away what used to be a niche market to the mainstream crowd.
2004 - 20XX: All other games in the genre released post-WoW are generic levelup carrot on a stick games, with a few exceptions that all end up tanking because they suck. As it happens, all the clones are worse than WoW and fail as well.

Noun Verber
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.03 16:17:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Kanatta Jing
I blame the aging west for the lack of modern innovation.


Shall we start making comments about big hair, big swords and grinding?

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2010.05.03 16:24:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: Gariuys
Edited by: Gariuys on 03/05/2010 15:05:53
Originally by: So Sensational
Edited by: So Sensational on 03/05/2010 12:51:09
WoW gave the genre to the mainstream, the mainstream craves generic bull****.


Considering the succes of that generic bull****, that statement is just not true.

wat?
Either you're saying that it's successful with sarcasm, in which case you're an idiot, or you're saying that I said the opposite of what I said, which I didn't.

Here, let me give you a timeline:

19XX - 2004 The MMO genre caters to a niche market. The mainstream crowd exists and the industry realizes that they would play a generic levelup carrot on a stick game.
2004: WoW is released, WoW is a generic levelup carrot on a stick game. WoW wins the MMO genre from an industry perspective by making big monies, giving away what used to be a niche market to the mainstream crowd.
2004 - 20XX: All other games in the genre released post-WoW are generic levelup carrot on a stick games, with a few exceptions that all end up tanking because they suck. As it happens, all the clones are worse than WoW and fail as well.



??? yes wow was succesfull, wasn't trying to say it wasn't. But WoW wasn't generic bull****, it wasn't innovative on any part of it's gameplay either but it was a complete package that really did work, the rest was generic bull**** and none of them have been succesful ( not in the west anyway ). SO I completely agree with you.

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2010.05.03 16:55:00 - [18]
 

Darkfall was fun. If you can get past their crap-tastic looting/banking system.

And all of their balance issues (magic was waaaay over powered when I played).

Was a really fun game, but lag and the tediousness of it plus the balance issues I only stuck around for a little over a month (I started about 3 months after launch)

They might have fixed some of that since I left (been almost a year)

For hack/n slash PvP it was pretty dang fun. The PvE was OK. The fact that you could use terrain and shadows to sneak up on people (or hide from them) was awesome. No glareing NEON RED sign above your head to alert them from across the map.

And you could kill anyone, anywhere. Regardless of their race/faction. (could kill your own guild members if you wanted to)

Its a lot like eve in that respect.


 

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