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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2010.07.20 19:29:00 - [301]
 

Perhaps a supercarrier's ability to deal DPS should be useless VS something as small as a HAC?



Problem solved, 0.0 carbears keep their empire like immunity, low sec roamers get what they want, and there was a part three to this but it slipped out of my brain while i was typing.


It may have had something to do with Audrey bitoni . . . that name and hot dropping supercarriers seem to connect in my brain for some reason.

Frozean
Posted - 2010.07.21 04:51:00 - [302]
 

All you have to do to counter a 20b ship is to bring 10b isk worth of battleships/battlecruisers and 10b worth of hictors. no problem

If you dont bring at least this much, then dont even talk about counters.

Ascendic
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.21 05:19:00 - [303]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
So you can't solo a capital in your battleship or gank it with 10?

Damn son, that sure is gamebreaking.


You get a gold star for consistently misinterpreting everything anyone says!

-Liang


Personal attack removed.Applebabe
Do everyone a favour and recycle your useless cry baby toon and gtfo of here.

wtb: Someone with an IQ higher than 5 to have decent conversation with. Then again, THEY would realize you are an idiot as well and there would not be a discussion.Rolling Eyes

OT Smithers
Posted - 2010.07.21 05:20:00 - [304]
 

Just to be clear... the same guys who thought it was hillarious to grief miners during Hulkagedon and who believe it perfectly acceptable to to use T2 and T3 cruisers against T1 frigates, they think that THIS is unfair?



Jared D'Uroth
Minmatar
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.21 07:22:00 - [305]
 

I think Liang has a somewhat valid point that low-sec, where small gang warfare should thrive, is more vulnerable to SC drops.

Don't think they need a nerf though.

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.21 07:38:00 - [306]
 

BS heavy PvP outfits complain about carrier drops.
Carrier outfits complain about SC drops.


The problem here isn't SC drops specifically, but cynos. Nobody wants to bring out BS fleet because they'll get dropped, nobody wants to drop just a couple caps for support because they'll get SC dropped.
Make carriers harder to mobilize, and SC's even harder than carriers to mobilize, problem solved.
But don't hold your breath, it'll be another 18 months before this post is even read.

FoxtrotOff
League of Respect
Posted - 2010.07.21 09:53:00 - [307]
 

As much as i dont want to join in on a suspected troll, i have to agree.

I was in a roam with a few friends the other day (2 legions, 1 sleip and 1 cane), we were in a dead end system which wasnt the best idea but it was nice sites and rats.

Anyway, up pops the cyno.. and we had 2 carriers, 1 super carrier and a dread appear in system and thats all we could see on dscan.

We got out without any huge issues and weather they were passing by or what i dont know, but we didnt stick around to find out =-)

It was a 0.1 system so maybe the used it more as a jumping point into null but it certainly made my sphincter tighten up

Saelie
Posted - 2010.07.21 10:59:00 - [308]
 

Posting in a three-month-old necrothread.

Might as well throw my opinion out there while I'm here.

Supercarriers in low-sec are overpowered by my standard definition, which is this: 'If something is only countered by itself, it is overpowered.' It held true for the nano-nerf, it held true for the ECM nerf, it holds true here - Since CH stated repeatedly that you more or less need supercarriers to kill supercarriers, then they fit my definition of overpowered. Ultimately though, I think the problem is more that if someone drops a lone SC on you, you might be able to hold it down with a HIC or two but you won't have the DPS to kill it before it kills the HICs or caps them out. A properly-supported SC with carrier logistics, or a group of SCs, requires more resources than the bulk of low-sec entities can field.

That said, yes, more supercarriers are dying in low-sec. Why is that? Simple - As time goes on and alliances get richer, as resources accumulate, as more players train up for them, there are more of them floating around. Because there are more of them around, more of them will be destroyed since they're more available as targets. However, I've only seen one SC kill in the last few months that did not have multiple other SCs on it (And it was in 0.0).

How do I think it should be fixed? I don't know. I don't fight in low-sec, I don't live in low-sec, I have little experience with low-sec, I'm not qualified to say. Nor does the problem really even affect me. But there's my opinion for what it's worth.

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2010.07.21 11:47:00 - [309]
 

This thread makes me think two things

1) Let's bait a SC and make some sucker lose 30bil or whatever they cost.

2) "Cyno-Jammers" or something in lowsec as a cyno countermeasure is needed - EVE is all about countermeasures. There simply is no counter measure at present - note that "bring your own cyno drop" is not a counter measure.

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.07.21 11:58:00 - [310]
 

you can kill a SC fairly quick with 4-5 dreads Rolling Eyes

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.07.21 12:23:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

Here, let's see if I can spell this out clearly:
- Supercarriers are a supercap
- There are four counters to a supercap in 0.0
- There are megablobs and massive napfests in 0.0
- There is exactly one counter to a supercap in low sec.
- Supercarriers are fully functional in low sec


There are not 4 counters (if by counter you mean can tackle??) to supercaps in 0.0, there are 2 - dictor bubbles and focussed hic scripts, the second of which can be used in low sec. Anchored bubbles are not really an effective counter, you would have to either anchor and online the bubbles mid combat or convince the SC pilot to jump into them. Hic bubbles only have warp strength of -1. There can be megablobs and napfests in low sec too. The dictors are not really that relevant, in 0.0 if you are going to attack supercaps you take hics, dictors die too fast, and the bubbles are easily removed by smartbombs if not correctly placed.

Basically you are complaining that you cant use a dictor, which is not the optimal SC tackler in the first place, against supercarriers in low sec.

The effective counter to Supercarriers is focussed script HICs + dreads (or other supercarriers), all of which are fully functional in low-sec. The lack of dictors might make the initial tackle harder but as the SC is the one attacking you that probably wont be an issue.

As has already been pointed out SCs aren't exactly renowned for chasing down and tackling targets either so its not like you can't get away from them.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.21 13:02:00 - [312]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/07/2010 13:01:57
Originally by: FoxtrotOff
As much as i dont want to join in on a suspected troll, i have to agree.

I was in a roam with a few friends the other day (2 legions, 1 sleip and 1 cane), we were in a dead end system which wasnt the best idea but it was nice sites and rats.

Anyway, up pops the cyno.. and we had 2 carriers, 1 super carrier and a dread appear in system and thats all we could see on dscan.

We got out without any huge issues and weather they were passing by or what i dont know, but we didnt stick around to find out =-)

It was a 0.1 system so maybe the used it more as a jumping point into null but it certainly made my sphincter tighten up

So you are complaining about caps in low sec because this one time someone cynod in a couple of caps to a system you were also in and proceeded to completely ignore you. The horror, this will be dealt with, etc etc.

Hint: It is pretty unlikely they drop a dread on BCs/cruisers, carriers/super carrier sure, but not a dread.


This seems mainly to me complaining that others got bigger toys.

Verrenici
Posted - 2010.07.21 14:39:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: Doddy
so its not like you can't get away from them.


We've arrived at a point where 'just run away' is a valid argument against nerfing something.

Sad.

BrundleMeth
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
Posted - 2010.07.21 15:52:00 - [314]
 

Edited by: BrundleMeth on 21/07/2010 15:58:01
Originally by: Lord Helghast
4 SC + 4 C on a solodrake is just ****ing histerical, i wudnt mind loosing a ship that way it wud be epic lol

Yeah I'd like to see it too. Hopefully I could do some real damage too in my frigate...

Originally by: FoxtrotOff
It was a 0.1 system so maybe the used it more as a jumping point into null but it certainly made my sphincter tighten up
I could do the same thing to you if I just got a bottle of... um, never mind kids might read this...

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.07.21 16:13:00 - [315]
 

Within this thread exists everything that's truly wrong with the game.

Hesperius
Posted - 2010.07.21 19:08:00 - [316]
 

This ol thread eh. Since I last posted on this topic, I have seen a huge increase of SC activity in low sec.

Honestly it wouldn't be so bad if the scripted HIC could have logistics run on it. It is far too easy for a prepared and competent and calm SC pilot to just nute any HIC's on the field (or even better just kill them) and leave at their own convenience. For how many of them are now in low sec, not very many are dieing, that should speak for itself.

Still I think there should be some middle ground between where the BS is king (high sec) and where super capitals should be king (null sec) for capitals to be king. That is just my opinion.

OT Smithers
Posted - 2010.07.21 21:03:00 - [317]
 

For veterans used to facing only two kinds of enemies: 1) hillariously outclassed new players, and 2) other veterans in relatively comparable ships, this situation is probably shocking as hell. For newer players this is how the game is. Every ship they face presents an impossible challenge. No amount of planning or personal skill will allow them to win, the game is coded that way.


Barakkus
Posted - 2010.07.21 21:08:00 - [318]
 

Originally by: OT Smithers
For veterans used to facing only two kinds of enemies: 1) hillariously outclassed new players, and 2) other veterans in relatively comparable ships, this situation is probably shocking as hell. For newer players this is how the game is. Every ship they face presents an impossible challenge. No amount of planning or personal skill will allow them to win, the game is coded that way.




Every ship presents an impossible challenge to me and I'm not new, just look at my battle clinic record Laughing

Veneth
Posted - 2010.07.21 22:12:00 - [319]
 

Edited by: Veneth on 21/07/2010 22:13:22
Edited by: Veneth on 21/07/2010 22:12:52
I like all these people saying "but SC's cost 20bil it shouldn't be taken out by smaller ships"

yeah.. I remember this same exact argument when they buffed Frigs years and years ago and people started loosing battleships to them.. "but it's a 100 mil battleship! it shouldn't be killed by a few 100k frigates!"

those arguments didn't hold up to well back than and personally I don't think they'll hold up to well now as SCs and caps in general get more and more plentiful..

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.21 22:45:00 - [320]
 

Hey leave supercaps alone I'm almost done training for my supercap and I want to have the overpowered wtfpwnbbq enormous pythonic monument of awesomeness that all the other supercap kids play with. I'll epic rage about how you're nerfing my overpowered play style if you try to take away my untackleable overpowered toy! RAGE! Anyone that has a supercap should have the *RIGHT* to be much safer in lowsec than in 0.0, and also have the *RIGHT* to be wtfbbq overpowered. Supercarriers should instantly and safely defang deathstars, and its your God Given Right to have dozens of triage carriers on standby to support your "solo PVP" antics.

This is "By Design". And it will not change for at least 2 years. Get the **** over it.

-Liang

Wetu
Posted - 2010.07.21 23:26:00 - [321]
 

i want a cyno free low sec paradice, not joking,.

how bout make some systems in lowsec perma cyno jammed :D
a cluster of systems would be nice,. allot of FUN fights

if thats too much,. id like to see cyno jammers in lowsec

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2010.07.22 00:00:00 - [322]
 

The thing about super carriers in low-sec is they really only get lost if you are asking for it. Examples of this would be using a super carrier as a PVE platform which is just suicide but hey it happens, or when a player becomes flush with ISK and believes a SC is a solopwnmobile. I personally had a taste of the latter when a visitor to my old haunt decided to drop a solo nyx on people. I believe it took under 48 hours for him to be freed of his burden by CH.

As they are now, SC are pretty much a tool of terror in lowsec, they enable small groups of wealthy players to grief most any common entity. That seems to be the end of the utility though, personally I haven't heard of engagements where multiple SC go toe to toe with multiple SC in lowsec where competent pilots are on both sides. They are used to make the field as biased as possible in their favor and escape rapidly if the tide turns.

As far as behavior and mechanics go you have two choices, set a trap with a nap fest classed blob and hope you can take down the 2-15 SC that get dropped. Or learn the names of cyno alts, the habits of the SC droppers and fly stuff that can get away. The only thing you can do is adapt, don't expect people in a game like eve not to use the most unbalanced options they have available.

Ascendic
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.22 04:19:00 - [323]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Hey leave supercaps alone I'm almost done training for my supercap and I want to have the overpowered wtfpwnbbq enormous pythonic monument of awesomeness that all the other supercap kids play with. I'll epic rage about how you're nerfing my overpowered play style if you try to take away my untackleable overpowered toy! RAGE! Anyone that has a supercap should have the *RIGHT* to be much safer in lowsec than in 0.0, and also have the *RIGHT* to be wtfbbq overpowered. Supercarriers should instantly and safely defang deathstars, and its your God Given Right to have dozens of triage carriers on standby to support your "solo PVP" antics.

This is "By Design". And it will not change for at least 2 years. Get the **** over it.

-Liang


Clearly my first post and the 10000 others did not get it through your head that Personal attack removed.Applebabe

Let me explain more CLEARLY for you.

The lack of bubbles in low sec AFFECTS ALL SHIPS. Not just supercaps Personal attack removed.Applebabe. The play field is ****ing level.

Otherwise your little pirate gangs would have drag bubbles all over the god damn place and people would be crying to have them nerfed just like you are now. The fact that bubbles are not available makes all ships "STRONGER" in low sec than 0.0 according to your logic. So why not nerf every ship then you ******? That is the only way to make it fair....owait but then your little QQ so you can tackle a supercap with 20 guys will not matter anymore.

If you want to level the field then allow bubbles in low sec. Watch what happens. Now the SC's will drop in with a horde of dictors and stop your little Inappropriate content removed.Applebabe gang from getting away at all. Now you not only cant tackle it because you are dead, but you could not even get away if you wanted to.

Uh oh what now? I know! Time for more QQ.

Stuart Price
Caldari
FLA5HY RED
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2010.07.22 04:41:00 - [324]
 

Said it before and I'll say it again: change cyno mechanics.

Currently it goes:

Ship pops cyno -> Capships can cyno instantly to that cyno until it goes down, no limit on the amount of ships that can jump to the same cyno.

I want it to go:

Ship pops cyno -> Timer starts, length dependent on skills -> Once timer is up, capships can jump to that cyno, cynoship can drop the field at any time after the timer has elapsed. Liquid Ozone is consumed PER SHIP that jumps to the cyno, amount reduced by skills.

Bingo; no more super-easy capfleet movements, no more super-easy hotdrops. Better make sure your cyno baitship can survive your intended victims for long enough now. If you want to jump a ship into a hostile system now, you gotta work for it.


Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.07.22 05:27:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: Ascendic
Inapporpriate content removed.Applebabe


u mad? Seems like you are so mad you cant put a proper argument together. Looking good.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.07.22 06:15:00 - [326]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
.... untackleable .....
-Liang


Sarcasm aside, one word.... Hictors. Laughing

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2010.07.22 17:24:00 - [327]
 

OP is absolutely and entirely correct, I for one have never been able to successfully PvP since Cry Havoc was formed.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.22 17:57:00 - [328]
 

Originally by: Ascendic
Clearly my first post and the 10000 others did not get it through your head that Personal attack removed.Applebabe


NOU!

Quote:
Let me explain more CLEARLY for you.


NOU!

Quote:
The lack of bubbles in low sec AFFECTS ALL SHIPS. Not just supercaps Personal attack removed.Applebabe. IE. The play field is ****ing level.


Let me explain this in little words so a small brain like yours can understand this.

Ways to tackle a Carrier: T1 Frigate, T2 Frigate, T1 Destroyer, T2 Destroyer, T1 Cruiser, T2 Cruiser, T3 Cruiser, T1 Battlecruiser, T2 Battlecruiser, T1 Battleship, T2 Battleship, Carrier, Dread, Supercarrier, Titan, Warp Disrupt Probe, Focused HIC, HIC Bubble, Anchorable Bubble

Ways to tackle a Supercap in 0.0: Focused HIC, HIC Bubble, Anchorable Bubble, Warp Disrupt Probe
Ways to tackle a Supercap in Lowsec: Focused HIC

And just for the super stupid here: A supercarrier in low sec not only eliminates 75% of the ways to tackle it, it also is now in an environment which actively discourages the use of said form of tackle. Also please note that a Carrier loses 3 of 19 ways to be tackled. Yep, its all balanced m8.

Quote:
The fact that bubbles are not available makes all ships "STRONGER" in low sec than 0.0 according to your logic.


Seems like HICs and Dictors are specifically weaker in low sec. Also seems like blasters are potentially weaker in low sec (!!!) because in 0.0 its easier to shape the battlefield and guarantee starting positions. But ultimately what you're looking at is the difference between 19/16 vs 4/1. ;-)

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.22 18:05:00 - [329]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Sarcasm aside, one word.... Hictors. Laughing


Well, of course. Its not that they can't be tackled at all - its that they become proportionately much more powerful in low sec than in 0.0 - not that they aren't pretty well overpowered in 0.0 too! But in lowsec its worse. There's a thread in Ships & Modules right now that has effectively boiled down to the consensus that the only valid use of a carrier is to rep a supercap - therefore the Nidhoggur is the best carrier because of the rep bonus.

The Best Carrier:
Nidhoggur
4x Remote Rep, Triage
Cap Recharge, Some Resists
Cap Recharge
Cap Recharge
Drones: No fighters.

Awesome game design there champs. Rolling Eyes

But anyway, I wasn't kidding. Supercaps are overpowered on purpose - by design - and will not be changed for at least 2 years. I also wasn't kidding: Get the **** over it.

-Liang

Black Kestrel
Dark-Rising
IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.22 21:46:00 - [330]
 

I remember back in the day, a little 8-man crew I used to run with would be regularly harassed by a Titan and three Supercarriers (Motherships at that time) from Arcane Alliance. To combat this situation, we returned to visit them the following day with a few (read: 85) friends in tow. The Titan and one Mothership did not leave the field intact.

That was a case of a well (and adequately)-prepared small gang claiming victory over carelessly-deployed supercapitals whose pilots surely believed were completely safe from harm, and now know better.

Does my experience mirror the situations being outlined here? No; what it does is make the point that for every seemingly insurmountable engagement, there is an appropriate and perfect counter. Not everyone will be able to employ that counter for a variety of reasons, but it exists nonetheless.


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