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captain foivos
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:04:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker

Crybabies with the tough-looking Brutor avatars



YOU RACIST SON OF AN AMARRIAN

I ain't prejudiced!

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:11:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: captain foivos
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker

Crybabies with the tough-looking Brutor avatars



YOU RACIST SON OF AN AMARRIAN


I don't like Achuras either. That's one race that should be permanently AFK cloaked.

captain foivos
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:16:00 - [213]
 

Haters gonna hate on One-Eyed Caldari. Evil or Very Mad

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:29:00 - [214]
 

Page eight is already the most interesting and productive page of this forum topic.

Hurtado Soneka
Caldari
Vindicare Temple
Posted - 2010.07.13 23:31:00 - [215]
 

Has voith finished talking total bs on this subject yet? Cloaks are fine, leave them alone.

Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.14 00:11:00 - [216]
 

I'm confused about something...if there is a player in a system who is cloaked while afk then they aren't going to be bullying anybody because...they are afk. If there is a player in a system who is cloaked and at the keyboard he will be able to manage whatever type of system is implemented to combat afk cloaking and can still "bully" you.

What this really sounds like is that the op just doesn't like cloaks and is trying to use "afk bullying" to get them nerfed.

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.14 03:27:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Hurtado Soneka
Has voith finished talking total bs on this subject yet? Cloaks are fine, leave them alone.

I pretty much came to the realization there was no use talking about PvP related things with glorified carebears and that I would get a more coherent argument with less posturing out of a brickwall.


Mella Elcus
Posted - 2010.07.14 04:34:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Mella Elcus on 14/07/2010 04:34:06
Voith, you really don't seem to have understood yet why local is the real problem.
As it is now, it's impossible (except for a screw up on their part) to catch a ratter/plexer, because as soon as you step into local they're already aligning to a safespot/station/POS. Safe risk free income.

The only way to counter this is to stay in the same system until the ratter can't know for sure if you're really there or not. This is ofc doable using an unprobable fit ship too, but it would nerf you too much and good luck getting through gatecamps.
By doing this it effectively negates the perfect intelligence tool that local is.

This just proves that it's not the cloak that is the real problem, if local was changed to a delayed mode you would still be here whining about how cloaked roaming gangs are lame because there is no way to spot them before it's to late.

Quote:
All actions must carry risk, otherwise Eve quickly falls apart.

Docking too? Being afk while being cloaked is not an action, it's a state. Much like being offline, it's just that you have no way to tell if they're offline or not.

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.14 04:49:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Mella Elcus
Edited by: Mella Elcus on 14/07/2010 04:34:06
Voith, you really don't seem to have understood yet why local is the real problem.
As it is now, it's impossible (except for a screw up on their part) to catch a ratter/plexer, because as soon as you step into local they're already aligning to a safespot/station/POS. Safe risk free income.

The only way to counter this is to stay in the same system until the ratter can't know for sure if you're really there or not. This is ofc doable using an unprobable fit ship too, but it would nerf you too much and good luck getting through gatecamps.
By doing this it effectively negates the perfect intelligence tool that local is.

This just proves that it's not the cloak that is the real problem, if local was changed to a delayed mode you would still be here whining about how cloaked roaming gangs are lame because there is no way to spot them before it's to late.

Quote:
All actions must carry risk, otherwise Eve quickly falls apart.

Docking too? Being afk while being cloaked is not an action, it's a state. Much like being offline, it's just that you have no way to tell if they're offline or not.



So, if local is the problem then why aren't wormholes filled to the brim with people looking for a fight? Because as much as nubs cry about local they forget that they need it too.

Docking, at least in 0.0 can carry a risk. You can find yourself unable to use station services if the station changes hands. But I'm sure such a leet PvPer such as yourself knew that, right?

Mella Elcus
Posted - 2010.07.14 05:06:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Mella Elcus on 14/07/2010 05:09:08
Originally by: Voith

So, if local is the problem then why aren't wormholes filled to the brim with people looking for a fight? Because as much as nubs cry about local they forget that they need it too.


Actually I would say it's because you have to probe up the "gates" making it too time consuming to bother going from wh to wh looking for targets.
(Also perhaps because people can't fit the usual blob into the wormhole? Laughing)

Originally by: Voith

Docking, at least in 0.0 can carry a risk. You can find yourself unable to use station services if the station changes hands. But I'm sure such a leet PvPer such as yourself knew that, right?

Alright sure, "docking in low or high sec stations". The point was and still is that not everything can or should come with a risk.

Lia'Vael
Caldari
Migrant Fleet
Posted - 2010.07.14 05:09:00 - [221]
 

Hmm I leave for a little bit and it grows a page and voith is still crying like a 13 year old and spewing his conflicting argument. Cloaking hardly makes someone perfectly safe (read up on the drawbacks and come back), about the covert cyno you whined.
Originally by: Voith
Covert Cyno.

That one just became 20 stealth bombers and recons.

Originally by: Voith
Yes, lets permantly have a gang of 10 to 20 people around where ever I go!


Looks to me you dont like it when non blues are around even idling.
Originally by: Voith
When I rat I rat in a system so in the middle of no where I don't even see blues there. So I'm not really effected by "AFK Cloaking".

Yes cloaking doesn't "affect" you yet you whine about it without knowledge of it or the tactics used with cloaking. Yeah theres absolutely no way you're just a carebear whining about the "big meanie" cloaker. What you want is to make isk in peace where others can't harm you, boy.You're too easy to read Voith.

Ganking does happen in WH, the lack of local destroys the careless and the stupid on all sides, an inhabited WH isn't hard to find, local gives too much information anyways. I can safely say I don't need it at all, can you? Oh right you would cry and squirm.

Now I must say either state an issue with cloaking or HTFU and let this whinefest die, or bring me cheese (Butterkase or Camembert please) because your tears go so well with it.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2010.07.14 05:27:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Lia'Vael
...or bring me cheese (Butterkase or Camembert please) because your tears go so well with it.


Cheese goes good with whine. Get your pun right!

Lia'Vael
Caldari
Migrant Fleet
Posted - 2010.07.14 05:38:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Lia'Vael
...or bring me cheese (Butterkase or Camembert please) because your tears go so well with it.


Cheese goes good with whine. Get your pun right!


Bah! Not all whine, tears are bitter and have a sweet salty taste, Butterkase is odorless, mild, smooth, with a delicate taste and Camembert it depends on age, mild to pungent but always rich, and sometimes with a hint of earthy mushroom. Now a good wine cheese I would go with probably Asiago or Gruyere or Havarti. Now I am rather hungry.

Yuki Kulotsuki
Posted - 2010.07.14 05:39:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Lia'Vael
...or bring me cheese (Butterkase or Camembert please) because your tears go so well with it.


Cheese goes good with whine. Get your pun right!
PUNISH HIM!

Mark Hadden
Amarr
Endstati0n
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.07.14 07:21:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Mark Hadden on 14/07/2010 07:28:17

Originally by: Skunk Gracklaw
I'm confused about something...if there is a player in a system who is cloaked while afk then they aren't going to be bullying anybody because...they are afk. If there is a player in a system who is cloaked and at the keyboard he will be able to manage whatever type of system is implemented to combat afk cloaking and can still "bully" you.

What this really sounds like is that the op just doesn't like cloaks and is trying to use "afk bullying" to get them nerfed.


generally, you're right.
I think people would like to know if somebody afk or not in order to avoid wasting time baiting an afker (which obviously cant work lol).
Either he's afk and could be scanned down (or he logs) or he's there and can be baited because he is not afk.

In my opinion afking is a good method to avoid being baited, so when I go afk its amusing how hard they must try baiting - I know they do because its their only option - while I'm doing eve unrelated things away from the computer... haha
A good thing, local as intel is getting useless too if you afk a lot because they dont really know if there is anybody or not.
(afk) cloaking is very fine in my opinion because it diminishes the fuggin local and baiting cost them a huge amount of time, which doesnt even work if you're smart enough.

Larinioides cornutus
Posted - 2010.07.14 10:50:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Skunk Gracklaw
I'm confused about something...if there is a player in a system who is cloaked while afk then they aren't going to be bullying anybody because...they are afk. If there is a player in a system who is cloaked and at the keyboard he will be able to manage whatever type of system is implemented to combat afk cloaking and can still "bully" you.

What this really sounds like is that the op just doesn't like cloaks and is trying to use "afk bullying" to get them nerfed.


The issue is that no one know for sure if they are afk and thus still need to treat them as if they are not. If we add an <AFK> tag on people who havent interacted with the game for 5 mins or more and optionally notify when he's back, the issue will be non-existant. But I'm very sure that all the afk cloakers will not like the idea due to lack of realism or some other bulldefecated reasons.

People simply insist on nerfing cloak because it also fix some other issues with it.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.07.14 10:52:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Larinioides cornutus
The issue is that no one know for sure if they are afk and thus still need to treat them as if they are not. If we add an <AFK> tag on people who havent interacted with the game for 5 mins or more and optionally notify when he's back, the issue will be non-existant. But I'm very sure that all the afk cloakers will not like the idea due to lack of realism or some other bulldefecated reasons.

People simply insist on nerfing cloak because it also fix some other issues with it.


tl;dr; I am a coward and loosing my ship to a red scares me senseless.

Laina Delapore
Caldari
Shadowed Command
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.07.14 11:32:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: foksieloy


tl;dr; I am a coward and loosing my ship to a red scares me senseless.


Hence I spend all my time afk, cloaked? Wink

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2010.07.14 11:52:00 - [229]
 

I GET REALLY SCARED FLYING MY NOOBSHIP WHEN BIG UNCLOAKED HULKS DO APPEAR IN LOCAL, HURTING THOSE STONEGOLEMS! COULD YOU PLEASE FIX THE HULKS SO I FEEL SAFE IN HIGHSEC AGAIN? THEY ARE SO LOUD, TOO! I MUST GO NOW, DRONES 1 SKILL IS ABOUT TO BE READY...

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:28:00 - [230]
 

Edited by: Voith on 14/07/2010 12:29:35
Originally by: Lia'Vael
Hmm I leave for a little bit and it grows a page and voith is still crying like a 13 year old and spewing his conflicting argument. Cloaking hardly makes someone perfectly safe (read up on the drawbacks and come back), about the covert cyno you whined.
Originally by: Voith
Covert Cyno.

That one just became 20 stealth bombers and recons.

Originally by: Voith
Yes, lets permantly have a gang of 10 to 20 people around where ever I go!


Looks to me you dont like it when non blues are around even idling.
Originally by: Voith
When I rat I rat in a system so in the middle of no where I don't even see blues there. So I'm not really effected by "AFK Cloaking".

Yes cloaking doesn't "affect" you yet you whine about it without knowledge of it or the tactics used with cloaking. Yeah theres absolutely no way you're just a carebear whining about the "big meanie" cloaker. What you want is to make isk in peace where others can't harm you, boy.You're too easy to read Voith.

Ganking does happen in WH, the lack of local destroys the careless and the stupid on all sides, an inhabited WH isn't hard to find, local gives too much information anyways. I can safely say I don't need it at all, can you? Oh right you would cry and squirm.

Now I must say either state an issue with cloaking or HTFU and let this whinefest die, or bring me cheese (Butterkase or Camembert please) because your tears go so well with it.

Don't mistake someone answering a question with someone complaining. Someone asked how one ship could be dangerous, I answered. If you bother to read you will notice I have mentioned several times that I enjoy Covert Cynos. I also pointed out the idiocy of expecting people to have a constant gang around them every time they undock, which is idiocy.

Again, you seem to fault people for 1) Being informed and 2) Being Realistic.

I'm sorry I don't share your view that Eve should be risk free consensual only PvP like WoW. As much as you and other tap dance around the issue that is exactly what you want.

You want the ability to avoid any engagement where you don't wish to fight, ie consensual only PvP; and you want the ability to slip out and avoid any losses, ie Risk Free.

You have found a loophole in Eve's design now you and the other WoW-tards are doing your damnedest to preserve it.

I have stated about a dozen times the issues with Cloaking. 1) Risk Free 2) No Counter. Both are totally against all that Eve stands for. Even docking in 0.0 or undocking in Empire has risk, but cloaking does not. Even ships such as Titans have counters, but not the 500k module that requires 1 hour of training.

Again, perhaps you should read before you make a bigger ass of yourself.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:31:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Laina Delapore
Hence I spend all my time afk, cloaked? Wink


Dear lord, no!

That is too risky. Spinning ships in station, now that is a nice way to spend 15$ a month.

Laina Delapore
Caldari
Shadowed Command
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:39:00 - [232]
 

Not to mention being excellent therapy. Ah, the soothing chanting of Amarrian monks.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2010.07.14 20:34:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Thought experiment for the crybabies with the tough-looking Brutor avatars:

SCENARIO 1: There is no local. You are a ratter/miner in your home systems, and I am an invader who has penetrated your defenses with a stealth bomber. When I want to play EVE, I log in, look for targets, and finding none, I log out.

SCENARIO 2: Local works. You are a ratter/miner in your home systems, and I am an invader who has penetrated your defenses with a stealth bomber. I log in every morning and leave the client running AFK all day. When I want to play EVE, I sit down at the computer, look for targets, and finding none, I leave the keyboard again and watch TV or something.

What's the meaningful difference?

This is for you to answer, Voilth.

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.14 22:27:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Thought experiment for the crybabies with the tough-looking Brutor avatars:

SCENARIO 1: There is no local. You are a ratter/miner in your home systems, and I am an invader who has penetrated your defenses with a stealth bomber. When I want to play EVE, I log in, look for targets, and finding none, I log out.

SCENARIO 2: Local works. You are a ratter/miner in your home systems, and I am an invader who has penetrated your defenses with a stealth bomber. I log in every morning and leave the client running AFK all day. When I want to play EVE, I sit down at the computer, look for targets, and finding none, I leave the keyboard again and watch TV or something.

What's the meaningful difference?

This is for you to answer, Voilth.


It isn't an answer, it is you crying about how horrible at Eve you are.

Any time someone complains about Local it is because they are bad at Eve. Full Stop.

It is the excuse for failures. "oh I didn't get that kill because he saw me in local!".

Why stop there? Take out D-scan so he can't see you warp in!

Why stop there, Take out the overview so he can't see you on the list!

Why stop there, take out brackets so he can't see you in space!

Even if they removed local you would simply find another excuse for your failures.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.07.15 00:06:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Voith

Any time someone complains about Local it is because they are bad at Eve. Full Stop.


Any time someone complains about cloaks it is because they are bad at Eve. Full Stop.

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.15 00:19:00 - [236]
 

Edited by: Voith on 15/07/2010 00:27:19
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Voith

Any time someone complains about Local it is because they are bad at Eve. Full Stop.


Any time someone complains about cloaks it is because they are bad at Eve. Full Stop.

See, the thing about declarations is that when you make one you need to back them up.

Try again, fail harder.

If you look back in Eve's history you will see that for a long time CCP wanted to nerf cloaks and make them probable. Guess who complained then? Carebears because they couldn't SS and cloak up. All I see now is the same arguments trotted out this time by people supposedly in favor of PvP. An interesting choice, but most people see through the Double speak.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.07.15 00:29:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Voith

See, the thing about declarations is that when you make one you need to back them up.



so yours was exactly which? (related to local)

Tyriana McLoren
Caldari
The Republic of Free Trade
Posted - 2010.07.15 00:34:00 - [238]
 

Voith,
I can't quite seem to get your argument down. I understand you say that a cloak cannot be countered because... well... they are cloaked. (what's the definition of a cloak again?)
But after reading through these 8 pages of back and forth ranting from both sides, it seems that most are saying it's the "AFK" part they don't like because they don't feel safe while having to worry about a possible AFK-er.

The one point you put up (at least I think it was you... I can't be bothered to go back through 8 pages of this mess) is that "... it only takes 500K and a lvl1 skill to cloak..."
Ok, having said that, if someone only has a lvl1 cloaking skill, don't they get penalized in the form of a target delay? (I honestly cannot recall as my cloaking is lvl5.. and I'm not in game) So, this brutal cloaker uncloaks and still cannot target anything for X amount of time in which you (or whomever) is able to warp off... seems that you still have the upper hand here.

Not to mention, someone who has only trained their cloak skill to lvl1 is either A) Not a serious cloak user (i.e. bomber .. as if a bomber can really do a whole lot), B) A new player/character thus having pretty much f*ck all for other beneficial skills (gunnery, cyno, etc) or C) Confused.
So, I'd have to say that the whole debate about using a lvl1 skill to do anything more than just annoy someone in lolsec is mute.

Now, if you are really wanting to push for a cloak 'nerf' or 'fuel' or something like that, then perhaps you'd be willing to take away the power penalty for CovOps cloaks and targeting delay for regular cloaks and speed cuts from being cloaked, etc? You know, balance and all.

Thing is, whether you or anybody else agree or disagree, the 'cloak' is just that... a cloak. You can't see it, so why all the wishing to see it? Get over that part please.
As for 'realism' that doesn't even exist in this game.
As for being invulnerable, umm... I'm invulnerable when I'm docked up so perhaps stations should randomly spit us out into a WH every so often just to make sure we have a chance to get shot at right?

I just don't see the big deal. It isn't like everybody and their brother are running around in a cloaked ship causing that much mayhem. If your system is really populated by an AFK-cloaker, then find a way to flush him out, or move.
Just out of curiosity, how many people do you have active on a regular basis in 'your' system? I'm just curious if you are in a big corp or a small corp or whatever. I mean, you cannot be out there alone right? So where are your buddies? I'm being serious here. There is never enough background information regarding these issues... all we ever see is why some don't like it for X reason which gets harped on time and time again.

Where is Akita T and Liang? Surely they have some logical insight to add to this by now.

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.15 00:38:00 - [239]
 

Edited by: Voith on 15/07/2010 00:39:29
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Voith

See, the thing about declarations is that when you make one you need to back them up.



so yours was exactly which? (related to local)


If you bother to read I explained in my post, and in earlier posts why Local complaining was a red herring.

1) Wormholes - A few pages back. There you go, no local. Ohh, but it is "hard" and "challenging"!
2) Excuses - See Previous post.

Local effects everyone equally, it is a tool and has functioned the same since Nigh the dawn of Eve. Cloaking as undergone some pretty major changes on the otherhand.

If local was so horrible people would be flooding wormholes for PvP. Hell, they even added mass limits so people can't blob! Must be a PvPers Paradise right?


oh no, they don't like wormholes because they are "challenging" (direct quote.

They have a direct solution to what the "problem", but they refuse to endure any small inconvenience to take that solution. Hence, it isn't actually a problem it is a scapegoat.

Originally by: Tyriana McLoren

(i.e. bomber .. as if a bomber can really do a whole lot)


Proof you don't have a clue about PvP quoted for all to see.


Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.07.15 00:47:00 - [240]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 15/07/2010 00:48:09
Originally by: Voith

If local was so horrible people would be flooding wormholes for PvP. Hell, they even added mass limits so people can't blob! Must be a PvPers Paradise right?


the wormholes arent characterized only by the absense of local, so your conclusion and pretended "proof" related to the local goes puff puff.

Local does not really affect both sides equally, "victims" are profiting from them more than people searching for ganks, they could live with the directional only.

Another "backup" for your "local" statement?


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