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Innocent Murderer
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.05 16:26:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Voith
AFK Cloaking is broken and goes against everything EVE and real PvPers stand for: Risk.

It allows a person to assume no risk and to affect the game of others. If you like AFK cloaking you should go back to WoW.


QFT.

Diablo Ex
Caldari
The Devil's Reject's
Posted - 2010.07.05 16:46:00 - [122]
 

Dock Spinning is broken and goes against everything Eve and real PvPers stand for: Risk.

It allows a person to assume no risk and to effect the game of others. If you like Dock Spinning you should go back to woW.

who's the real pvp'er? the guy several dozen jumps behind enemy lines, hunting you in a cloaker? or the half-dozen nullbears spinning in the station, crying on forums because 1 (one) player has shut down their entire system?

Dock Spinning isn't PvP, it is Pv"Bad Mechanic"

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.05 16:51:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Voith on 05/07/2010 17:03:05
Jabberwocky is broken and goes against everything Eve and real PvPers stand for: Risk.

It allows a person to assume no risk and to effect the game of others. If you like Jabberwocky you should go back to woW.

who's the real pvp'er? the guy several dozen jumps behind enemy lines, hunting you in a cloaker? or the half-dozen nullbears spinning in the station, crying on forums because 1 (one) player has shut down their entire system?

Jabberwocky isn't PvP, it is Pv"Bad Mechanic"

I can make **** up too!


Seriously, how can you justify "PvP" having no risk, when even undocking in empire has risk?

Oh wait... you can't. You just like consequence free "PvP", which is why you should go back to WoW.

P.S. If you're docked they know where you are. Thanks for conceding my point and agreeing that Cloakers should be able to be scanned out!

I knew you would come around sooner or later!

Jack Olev
Gallente
Roman Investment Group
Posted - 2010.07.05 17:11:00 - [124]
 

This topic has never ever been discussed on the forums before.

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.05 17:13:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Jack Olev
This topic has never ever been discussed on the forums before.


People said the same thing about Titan Doomsdays, and Motherships.

They got changed.


MinionOfNorm
Posted - 2010.07.05 17:26:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: TheShadowNode
Require a special structure in a Sov system that requires skill (not skills, actual "talent" wiki it) to operate with any effectiveness... people in non-sov or lowsec should stop caring so much about cloaky AFK and start worry about people jumping into their lame gate-camp.


I vote for something like this.

How about deployable probes, actual structures you need to place in space to detect a cloaked ship, only a pilot that was paying attention could avoid them, bots would slow you down but if they keep warping to the same places then they will get caught eventually?

didn't read the whole thread, sorry if this has already been suggested I fully support it.

Diablo Ex
Caldari
The Devil's Reject's
Posted - 2010.07.05 18:55:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Voith


I can make **** up too!


Seriously, how can you justify "PvP" having no risk, when even undocking in empire has risk?

Oh wait... you can't. You just like consequence free "PvP", which is why you should go back to WoW.

P.S. If you're docked they know where you are. Thanks for conceding my point and agreeing that Cloakers should be able to be scanned out!

I knew you would come around sooner or later!


What point?

Would you rather have Cloaking be the equal of being Docked up?

Yea, I would gladly let everybody know where I am, if in turn I could remain uncloakable, untargetable, and could break off from combat by simply recloaking (redocking).

Yea, that's the solution!

Make Cloaking as safe as Docking games...

Titus Io
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.07.05 19:29:00 - [128]
 

AFK cloakers aren't a problem. I'd be more worried about the non-AFK ones if I were you guys.

Also, if you don't know where he is or what he's doing, how do you know he's actually AFK? He could just be a very patient pilot waiting for the opportune moment to strike.

Tbh though, if the fear you talk about is the fear of losing your ship and you don't have that fear in 0.0 anyway then either you're an idiot or 0.0 isn't working as intended. AFK cloakers present that possible threat that is intended with 0.0. Don't like it? Go back to high sec.

Or you could live in w-space. About the only thing you can't do there is moon-mine (and blob in certain systems) and there's no local or any way of spotting a cloaked ship so you wouldn't tie your **** in a knot worrying about them.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2010.07.05 19:33:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Innocent Murderer
Originally by: The Next Guy

No the core issue here is local chat mechanics.

Local chat mechanics simply allows everyone to see that who is in system, not where they are, what they're in, or anything else. If you take away local, then...

... then there'd be no AFK cloaking problem. The "covert ops" and "black ops" ships would be able to actually conduct such operations. 0.0 would be less than 100% safe, which is how its supposed to be, but organized, competent alliances would have the upper hand and probably enjoy a lot more good fights.

Originally by: Innocent Murderer
In short, shut up, grow a pair, and fight like an EVE player instead of whining to get local removed so you can attack someone with impunity.

I can't help it but I LOL every time a guy with a "bad-ass" avatar tries to use "tough" language to tell me that he deserves the right to fly his Hulk or whatever in deep 0.0 with perfect safety. And I'm a "coward" or something because I don't want to let him.

Diablo Ex
Caldari
The Devil's Reject's
Posted - 2010.07.05 20:55:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Titus Io
AFK cloakers aren't a problem. I'd be more worried about the non-AFK ones if I were you guys.

Also, if you don't know where he is or what he's doing, how do you know he's actually AFK? He could just be a very patient pilot waiting for the opportune moment to strike.

Tbh though, if the fear you talk about is the fear of losing your ship and you don't have that fear in 0.0 anyway then either you're an idiot or 0.0 isn't working as intended. AFK cloakers present that possible threat that is intended with 0.0. Don't like it? Go back to high sec.

Or you could live in w-space. About the only thing you can't do there is moon-mine (and blob in certain systems) and there's no local or any way of spotting a cloaked ship so you wouldn't tie your **** in a knot worrying about them.


Titus, I think the issue is more about the dog that sees the treat on the other side of the window... Tastee but just out of reach. So they come here to the forum and whine about how unfair it is that they lack the skill/talent/creativity to get their Killmail fix.

I say leave Cloaking and Local alone, REMOVE KILLMAIL and your problems will be solved.

Rocktown
Posted - 2010.07.05 21:04:00 - [131]
 

Max range directional scanner 360 degrees, pulse it every 2 seconds, win eve, close thread.

Starbuck
Caldari
Goldadler Enterprises
The Seventh Legion
Posted - 2010.07.05 23:40:00 - [132]
 

Claoking works fine as it is. The only thing I would like to see is a specialised role and/or module for ewar frigates so that they can detect and decloak cloakers.

Basically give those things a reason to exist.

Innocent Murderer
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.06 00:06:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Innocent Murderer
Originally by: The Next Guy

No the core issue here is local chat mechanics.

Local chat mechanics simply allows everyone to see that who is in system, not where they are, what they're in, or anything else. If you take away local, then...

... then there'd be no AFK cloaking problem. The "covert ops" and "black ops" ships would be able to actually conduct such operations. 0.0 would be less than 100% safe, which is how its supposed to be, but organized, competent alliances would have the upper hand and probably enjoy a lot more good fights.


How would that remove the cloaking problem? That would remove the ability to see the problem, not the actual problem itself. Congratulations, you're a dumbass. Or a troll. Or someone who makes a living off of using an imbalanced game mechanic. Or some combination of all three.

Also, you have yet to post a negative to adding a fuel requirement to cloaks. I don't see any problems with allowing 16 hours of cloaking in any ship. Do you? (I'm sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't be posting about the erosion of your case for AFK-cloaking) If so, please post them. Otherwise don't bother posting at all.

Xorv
Posted - 2010.07.06 01:19:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Innocent Murderer

How would that remove the cloaking problem?


You've yet to show there IS a cloaking problem.


Nerfing existing cloaking would be taking EVE in the opposite direction it needs to go. Nullsec needs to be shaken up not allowed to be even more locked down by big zergy alliances with a fetish for NAPing everything that moves..

* Local Chat should removed.
* More pipes should be created from Lowsec to Nullsec. (or just more frequent WH's directly between the two.
* Black-Ops ships should have their jump B. range at least doubled.
* Pirate NPC stations should shoot at anyone with -5 standing or worse to them and refuse docking (should be the same for all factions/corps but only pirate ones really relevant here)
* Something also needs to be done about the rampant NAPs, but I'll leave that for someone else to fix that actually cares about sovereignty wars.

Nullsec should be dangerous to everyone, and there should be no safe PvEing for Sov holders without an active defence force making it so.

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.06 01:40:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Xorv
Originally by: Innocent Murderer

How would that remove the cloaking problem?


You've yet to show there IS a cloaking problem.


Nerfing existing cloaking would be taking EVE in the opposite direction it needs to go. Nullsec needs to be shaken up not allowed to be even more locked down by big zergy alliances with a fetish for NAPing everything that moves..

* Local Chat should removed.
* More pipes should be created from Lowsec to Nullsec. (or just more frequent WH's directly between the two.
* Black-Ops ships should have their jump B. range at least doubled.
* Pirate NPC stations should shoot at anyone with -5 standing or worse to them and refuse docking (should be the same for all factions/corps but only pirate ones really relevant here)
* Something also needs to be done about the rampant NAPs, but I'll leave that for someone else to fix that actually cares about sovereignty wars.

Nullsec should be dangerous to everyone, and there should be no safe PvEing for Sov holders without an active defence force making it so.


None of the things you mentioned would change the 0.0 NAP-fest in the slightest.

The fact that you consider AFK Cloaking to be something that changes the 0.0 strategic picture is proof of your detachment from actual PvP.


Innocent Murderer
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.06 01:53:00 - [136]
 

* Local Chat should removed.
No. No, no, and no.

* More pipes should be created from Lowsec to Nullsec. (or just more frequent WH's directly between the two.
Yes.

* Black-Ops ships should have their jump B. range at least doubled.
And a whole crapload of other improvements.

* Pirate NPC stations should shoot at anyone with -5 standing or worse to them and refuse docking (should be the same for all factions/corps but only pirate ones really relevant here)
Haven't really thought about this before. It would be an interesting idea. Might keep people from ever being able to fix standings with that pirate corp if they go below -5 though.

* Something also needs to be done about the rampant NAPs, but I'll leave that for someone else to fix that actually cares about sovereignty wars.
Make resources scarcer in nullsec. Upgrades made mercoxit, arkonor, bistot, and crokite a bit too common.

Nullsec should be dangerous to everyone (hence why I hate AFK-cloaking), and there should be reasonably safe PvEing for Sov holders who can camp a gate. After all, they had to fight to win that system, and to control the in/out points which mostly determine who gets access to that system.

Xorv you should be a little more careful when you post, I barely had to look to see the "I hate the Northern Coalition" you'd inserted in the text.

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.06 02:00:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Innocent Murderer
* Local Chat should removed.
No. No, no, and no.

* More pipes should be created from Lowsec to Nullsec. (or just more frequent WH's directly between the two.
Yes.

* Black-Ops ships should have their jump B. range at least doubled.
And a whole crapload of other improvements.

* Pirate NPC stations should shoot at anyone with -5 standing or worse to them and refuse docking (should be the same for all factions/corps but only pirate ones really relevant here)
Haven't really thought about this before. It would be an interesting idea. Might keep people from ever being able to fix standings with that pirate corp if they go below -5 though.

* Something also needs to be done about the rampant NAPs, but I'll leave that for someone else to fix that actually cares about sovereignty wars.
Make resources scarcer in nullsec. Upgrades made mercoxit, arkonor, bistot, and crokite a bit too common.

Nullsec should be dangerous to everyone (hence why I hate AFK-cloaking), and there should be reasonably safe PvEing for Sov holders who can camp a gate. After all, they had to fight to win that system, and to control the in/out points which mostly determine who gets access to that system.

Xorv you should be a little more careful when you post, I barely had to look to see the "I hate the Northern Coalition" you'd inserted in the text.


The NAP-fest has little to do with resources and a lot to do with the Sov system sucking. If the Sov system didn't involve napping while shooting stations then 0.0 might not be a NAP fest.

Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.06 03:25:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Voith
AFK Cloaking is broken and goes against everything Eve and real PvPers stand for: Risk.

It allows a person to assume no risk and to effect the game of others. If you like AFK cloaking you should go back to woW.

Affect the game of others? No, the only reason it affects you is because you let it affect you.
You talk about risk, when it's really you who's to scared to undock with a neutral in local. If you don't like AFK cloaking you're either a too big carebear to live in 0.0, or you're crying because the afk cloaker breaks your ratting macro.

Originally by: Innocent Murderer

How would that remove the cloaking problem? That would remove the ability to see the problem, not the actual problem itself. Congratulations, you're a dumbass. Or a troll. Or someone who makes a living off of using an imbalanced game mechanic. Or some combination of all three.

No, he actually has a point. The problem is not that you can't find someone cloaked at a safespot, the problem is that you know he's in the same system even if he's cloaked.

The afk cloakers exploit the fact that you know they're there, but you can't do anything about it.

Innocent Murderer
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.06 03:36:00 - [139]
 

And how do they exploit it? They pick off people at leisure, then resume their invulnerable state. Risk vs. reward is imbalanced with cloaking. All that fuel would do would be to make them have to do something else after a long time of being able to do what is already possible under game mechanics. I don't care what they're doing when they're AFK so much as I care that they can attack without warning against a target of their choosing (which can almost never fight back) and then go back to being AFK/invulnerable indefinitely. It's the indefinitely part that I and many others have an issue with.

What is a con to adding a fuel requirement to a cloak? I'm still waiting for someone to explain how it could ruin things.

Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.06 04:09:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Innocent Murderer

What is a con to adding a fuel requirement to a cloak? I'm still waiting for someone to explain how it could ruin things.

Where would you get it? NPC sell orders? Free or not?
However you decide to solve it will add yet one more thing I have to remember before I undock.

And what about wormholes? Do I have to find an exit to k-space every 16 hours because some whiny nullbears can't HTFU?

It's is just a simple case of "don't fix what ain't broken".

And of course you can almost never fight back when they attack, because they'll never uncloak and attack until they're sure they'll win. Just don't give them the opportunity.

Voith
Posted - 2010.07.06 04:21:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Induc
Originally by: Innocent Murderer

What is a con to adding a fuel requirement to a cloak? I'm still waiting for someone to explain how it could ruin things.

Where would you get it? NPC sell orders? Free or not?
However you decide to solve it will add yet one more thing I have to remember before I undock.

And what about wormholes? Do I have to find an exit to k-space every 16 hours because some whiny nullbears can't HTFU?

It's is just a simple case of "don't fix what ain't broken".

And of course you can almost never fight back when they attack, because they'll never uncloak and attack until they're sure they'll win. Just don't give them the opportunity.


Spoken like someone who has never been in 0.0.

Lia'Vael
Caldari
Migrant Fleet
Posted - 2010.07.06 04:29:00 - [142]
 

What disturbs me the most is the inaccurate use of the initialism "AFK". Really someone that is AFK is a bully and scares you? I would tell you to go play Hello Kitty Online but that might be too much of a game for you. Hell this is Farmville levels of pathetic.

Someone AFK is away from keyboard, also known as not there, incommunicado, fell in a hole, sleeping, eating, watching T.V., or gallente. They're cloaked and AFK, whoopdedoo, if they attack your ship then they aren't really AFK now are they?

Cloaked ships are hardly a thing to be afraid of, only thing you have to do is pay attention but I guess thats too much for a carebear to do. Some people talking about nerfing the cloak sound like a ship with a cloak equipped is indestructible. Is it the thought of someone there that you don't know that scares you? If a cov ops frigate decloaks in your belt do you scream stranger danger and curl in a ball?

Risk v. reward imbalanced because a ship with a cloak can goto a safespot and cloak? What world do you live in where you cant figure out how to counter a black ops or cov ops ship when it reveals itself to you? I'm guessing someone is just lazy and not willing to prepare.

HTFU

Innocent Murderer
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.06 04:33:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Induc

Where would you get it? NPC sell orders? Free or not?


Free? Free? Free like the minerals I mine?
Planetary interaction seems to be a great candidate for this.

Originally by: Induc

However you decide to solve it will add yet one more thing I have to remember before I undock.


Cry moar. That's up to maybe five things...ammo...fittings..fuel..No wait, that's three. Maybe four if you ask someone if the station is camped. If you're that lazy/stupid that you can't remember fuel, well, I hear HKO has a low subscription cost.

Originally by: Induc

And what about wormholes? Do I have to find an exit to k-space every 16 hours because some whiny nullbears can't HTFU?

I want you to repeat that sentence to yourself a couple times, you should realize what's wrong with that sentence eventually.

Also, see the first paragraph.

Xorv
Posted - 2010.07.06 04:47:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Voith
Originally by: Xorv


None of the things you mentioned would change the 0.0 NAP-fest in the slightest.

The fact that you consider AFK Cloaking to be something that changes the 0.0 strategic picture is proof of your detachment from actual PvP.



Really? Well, that's ok because I claimed no such thing in my post.

I don't have a solution for the NAPfest (at last not that CCP would ever implement), it's like that in almost every open PvP MMORPG where you can lose valuable assets. A large portion of players always herd like mass of wilderbeast, clinging to the nearest bandwagon. I want to see the increased viability of small group and solo PvPers in nullsec (Pirates, Raiders from other regions, outlaws and vagabonds), wasn't about the dynamics between one sovereignty holding herd and another.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.07.06 05:55:00 - [145]
 

Cloak already has a very serious drawback, aka the lowered scan resolution.

If you cannot warp out by the time he lands next to you, you suck as a player and deserve to die.

If you cannot realise what "bait" is, you suck as a player and deserve to never have a killmail.

Innocent Murderer
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.06 14:18:00 - [146]
 

You should probably try flying a covops or a recon ship before posting about cloaks.

Paul99
Posted - 2010.07.06 15:19:00 - [147]
 

LOL !!!

Instead of thinking how to make 0.0 space more PVP oriented and not chinese mode or blob oriented linke it is in our days, you come up with this thread :))). Right now 0.0 is pretty safe to mine, to rat, to mission because they have the log EXPLOIT and it schouldn't be that way. Maybe if LOCAL is REMOVED than 0.0 space will really start to be enjoyable to solo/small gang pvp

Maluminse
Caldari
Out Siders
Posted - 2010.07.06 15:59:00 - [148]
 

At the very minimum, if I have this argument correct, the people who inhabit 0.0 call high sec miners carebears when hulk comes to town, but if there's one cloaked person in local 0.0 that they can't scan down they start having **** fits and ask for nerfs? Shouldn't you guys be armed to the teeth and fly in numbers anyway? Isn't that the point of null sec? I'm confused.

Innocent Murderer
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.06 16:30:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Paul99
they have the log EXPLOIT

Who's they and what's the exploit?
Originally by: Paul99
and it schouldn't be that way.

What shouldn't, and why not?

Originally by: Paul99
Maybe if LOCAL is REMOVED than 0.0 space will really start to be enjoyable to solo/small gang pvp


Maybe if IDIOCY is REMOVED than the forums will really start to be enjoyable to reasonable/intelligent posters.

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.07.06 18:45:00 - [150]
 

There is nothing wrong with cloaking. Cloaking works as intended. Typically an afk cloaker won’t be able to lock a system down or get any kills and unless you are either careless or stupid. If anything their may be an issue with the way that local works in 0.0. Suggestions for the removal of local or possibly a passive local might work technically although they will be contested rigorously.


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