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Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.04.22 06:16:00 - [211]
 

Edited by: Kyra Felann on 22/04/2010 06:17:05
So, a question to the PI development guys: was there just not enough time, so you had to strip PI 1.0 down to the basics or has the vision of what PI should be changed since FanFest and now?

It's hard to watch this discussion at FanFest and not be anything other than very disappointed with what seems to actually be coming out. Virtually nothing that they talked about is on Singularity now about a month from release...the only bullet point that seems to have made it is the low barrier of entry. Policies, trade agreements, intra-planet player interaction, keeping workers happy and/or subdued, etc are all missing.

I realize that six months is not long to have to implement a complex planetary strategy sub-game, but it's troubling that I haven't seen any of the things that seemed to have been dropped or postponed even mentioned since FanFest. I'm mostly just looking for acknowledgment that they were postponed due to time issues and that they are planned for the future or that that is no longer part of what you want to do with PI or something. Right now it feels like they've been swept under the rug, so to speak.

I'm glad that you intend to keep working on it, though I would really like to know what you do plan to implement in the future. Could you give us some general, vague ideas?

I realize this post may sound critical, but I mean it in the most constructive and nice of ways. I have a lot of respect for CCP and the game you've made and that's why my expectations are so high.

Nerodon
Gallente
Incapsulated Reality
Posted - 2010.04.22 06:42:00 - [212]
 

Everything looks so nice and pretty. But I have only but one question I'm sure many other's would love to hear the answer to.

If Character A has a planet producing something can I launch it into space for Character B to pick up for me? I'd rather have a dedicated haul master taking care of hauling rather than each character/player having to absolutely be present at the specific planet just to "Hand the goods over" to someone else. This would be an issue for teamwork based planet industry where you want to delegate tasks and divide production and transport amongst several different people.

Like the contract system where from wherever you are, you can give something to someone, something similar should be included for planet launches and cargo rig usage. Will we be able to have that at release? I do think it's VERY important to have to make sure PI doesn't become a logistical nightmare.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2010.04.22 07:10:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Nerodon
I do think it's VERY important to have to make sure PI doesn't become a logistical nightmare.


To make it easier for one account to have an entire production chain? I don't think that is a good idea. Eve already has far too many vertical chains that one player can do all by them selves. The Eve economy needs more horizontal avenues.

Chade Malloy
Ardent Industrial
DEM0N HUNTERS
Posted - 2010.04.22 07:26:00 - [214]
 

I got only one question to our dear Devs and the PI Team, which can be summarized in just two words:

Population management!

Please tell us what you have in store or planned for this, or if there won´t be much tyranny going on in tyrannis Neutral

Yldrad
The Dandy KillerS
Posted - 2010.04.22 07:48:00 - [215]
 

Edited by: Yldrad on 22/04/2010 07:50:05
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Amida Ta
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Jongo Fett
highest rewards should be in low sec tbh. Just to populate low sec that little bit more.


We've scaled it with 0.0 being the highest output.

Could you please explain why?

See my post above why imho this doesn't make sense.


Life in 0.0 has a much higher strain in terms of logistics, infrastructure and just general hassle compared to life potentially next to empire space with NPC owned stations.
You mean the logistics required to bring back from Empire items that they'll be able to produce with PI?

Nerodon
Gallente
Incapsulated Reality
Posted - 2010.04.22 07:56:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Nerodon on 22/04/2010 08:04:46

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Nerodon
I do think it's VERY important to have to make sure PI doesn't become a logistical nightmare.


To make it easier for one account to have an entire production chain? I don't think that is a good idea. Eve already has far too many vertical chains that one player can do all by them selves. The Eve economy needs more horizontal avenues.


The problem I see here is that CCP talks of scalability, but this is some sort of bottleneck for players who want to use the resources they have to expand their business and planet management to corp/alliance wide management.
Surely everyone will be able to do it solo and be good at it... But were talking about eve online here, a game of leadership and teamwork, why introduce a feature where you force players to be less teamwork oriented?

By the way, I hate hauling, I pay others to haul for me (I make the hauling profession have meaning in eve) why keep me from doing the same with planets?

Your worries are set on people with alts who will abuse the system by having many many alts creating outposts and installations and litteraly milk planets while AFK. Weather you can haul it all yourself or have to use each and every alt to "hand over the goods" won't be that problematic for the compulsive alt user, just logoff those alts at the planets and log them on to pick the resources and pass them to the "real" hauler guy. This is merely an inconvenience to them yet it will hurt me, the guy who just wants to pay his corpmates to haul for him.

I would suggest a different way to go against this sort of abuse "if that's what it could be considered".

In the end Eve is a capitalistic world and the players fit in a "mostly" hierarchal society Corpmate->Director->Ceo->Alliance Leader->Master of the pets in giant wars.

PI shouldn't be kept from being exposed to mega management just as much as everything else in eve.

EDIT: You also have to remember, handling 50 Planets all by yourself and hauling it all by yourself must be hours and hours of work. Even if it is possible to do it with 1 or 2 accounts, that doesn't mean everyone will pour their time and effort into doing so. Ever heard of 1-man corps? They exist, so what? How many are there and do they really impact eve all that much?

I think its safe to say we should be able to have 1-man planet empire production machines, yet the amount of effort and time needed to do it would be high, just like any 1-man corp endeavors.

Lobster Man
Pigs On Teh Wing
Posted - 2010.04.22 08:09:00 - [217]
 

I want to be able to nuke planets from orbit...when is this coming? YARRRR!!

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.22 08:50:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Yldrad
Edited by: Yldrad on 22/04/2010 07:50:05
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Life in 0.0 has a much higher strain in terms of logistics, infrastructure and just general hassle compared to life potentially next to empire space with NPC owned stations.
You mean the logistics required to bring back from Empire items that they'll be able to produce with PI?

Pfftt... haha... yeah;

The logistical challenges of 0.0 space consist of hauling all our faction/deadspace loot and jewgold from 0.0 to Jita.

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2010.04.22 08:57:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: Mohenna on 22/04/2010 08:57:14
What's the amount of isk to be made more or less with PI? In the millions per hour, in the millions per minute, in the millions per day, week?

In other words, can you fuel a pos by yourself? With how much time?

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.22 09:58:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 22/04/2010 11:31:00
Originally by: Mohenna
In other words, can you fuel a pos by yourself? With how much time?


Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2010.04.22 11:05:00 - [221]
 

Thanks Tres. I was looking more for an estimate though, not an in depth analysis. From the looks of the first thread you link, it seems that the results are peanuts for the effort put into it. This seems to cater to newer industrialists. Or am I off?

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.22 11:29:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Mohenna
Thanks Tres. I was looking more for an estimate though, not an in depth analysis. From the looks of the first thread you link, it seems that the results are peanuts for the effort put into it. This seems to cater to newer industrialists. Or am I off?

No idea.. CCP says time and time again that final numbers are the ones we see on TQ on patchday.. I mean, that's why we have Sisi.. to chew on it a while and see if we like it. CCP is closely watching all those threads (never seen so many Devs post I think) and for sure take notes.
What they do upon this feedback.. again, you would need to be a mice in CCP HQ to find out I guess Smile

Also.. CCP doesn't want to spoil how they're handling the NPC orders of the stuff we are able to produce. There is also no info about what they think about price-levels.. we can only guess/speculate.
All I know/think is in those threads there..

Mohenna
Caldari
Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2010.04.22 12:14:00 - [223]
 

Granted; but even if they doubled it.. From 12-13 0.0 planets to fuel a large tower we'd drop to 6-7. That's still peanuts.

Note that I'm not complaining at all. I entered the game late, and becoming an industrialist was terrible with the competition from established activities that one faces. Having an activity that is low entry, and gives a newbie industrialist a steady little income, is a perfect entry point and I applaud this evolution.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2010.04.22 13:05:00 - [224]
 

I didn't see this answered yet...

Can we build stuff on planets for our corp?
Can we at least allow corp members to manage them?


Liorah
Posted - 2010.04.22 13:16:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
I think you are underestimating the scales at which we operate here.

Not at all. The scale is almost irrelevant.

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Even if you and some other guy puts a pin in the exact same spot, those would still not necessarily be physically on top of each other in the real (game) world. They could be built side-by-side and still occupy the same pixels. You could build dozens there and they would still occupy the same pixels.

Right now, you build something that's interconnected with something else, and sprawls across the planet's surface; there are no set rules that player A owns this spot and player B owns that spot nor are they restricted to building in their respective areas. When you have 100 players building in the same spot, players -WILL- build on top of each other. You just can't argue otherwise and be correct.


But thinking about it, this particular issue doesn't have to matter in the long run. It would just be a nice bit of "extra mile" effort to make an immersive, realistic and convincing game. Logically, you would hope that there are well-defined areas of ownership (some with better resources than others, to spur the greed and envy factor which will fuel military confrontations for the best spots on the planets). Like in the old text-based days, ideally you could draw a map for your dungeon.

The concept I'm thinking of is Risk, Stratego, Checkers, Chess... If you want a particular spot, you use the game mechanics to take over that spot because someone else is already there. In Civ, there are strategic resources that appear randomly around the map. If you want them, you trade with the owners or you kick the owners off your new plot of land. (They can also disappear after a while, but it's not nearly as fast as it sounds like it is on SiSi).

But in reality, you don't have to have that at all ... even if 100 different people build infrastructure on top of each other, all you have to do is say that some particular player owns this expanse of installation during any sort of operation, and completely ignore the fact that 100 other people have also built there. Your text-based dungeons can be completely unmappable and the game still goes on. It can still be fun, I guess, even if it makes some people twitch because it's not "map accurate".


I guess what I'm really arguing is a different design than what CCP has decided upon. Naturally, I think my idea is better and encourages competition more than the current design (as well as a few other benefits I've mentioned in the few posts about it), but I might be biased.

Actually, I have a legit question. In the current system, what reason is there for wanting to take over someone else's installation if: 1) you can just build right on top of them and get the same benefits, and 2) the place will dry up before you get home from work anyway because 100 other people have done the same thing?

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.04.22 13:21:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
I didn't see this answered yet...

Can we build stuff on planets for our corp?
Can we at least allow corp members to manage them?




No and no.

It is personal. As personal as it can get! YARRRR!!

Maybe in some future iteration though ...

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.04.22 14:28:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Life in 0.0 has a much higher strain in terms of logistics, infrastructure and just general hassle compared to life potentially next to empire space with NPC owned stations.

So you are basing it on theory-crafting?

Developed null-sec space can have more amenities than even high-sec and between bridges, freighters + other capitals and local manufacture logistics is a non issue for most areas.
Only space being actively fought over or having been recently conquered (ie. fail-space) breaks this mold. Sure markets don't have all the crap available in Empire, but they have what you need at all times (provided it is not fail-space).

So yes, null-sec has the potential to be more of a hassle but rarely in in reality.
Low-sec on the other hand is starved. Prices are 2-3 times high/null-sec due to risk involved and population has remained at the same low pathetic level since forever.
Scaling PI so that low-sec is nearly as good or equal to null-sec would encourage corporations and alliances to stake their claims to the benefit of all.

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.22 14:37:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Life in 0.0 has a much higher strain in terms of logistics, infrastructure and just general hassle compared to life potentially next to empire space with NPC owned stations.

So you are basing it on theory-crafting?

Developed null-sec space can have more amenities than even high-sec and between bridges, freighters + other capitals and local manufacture logistics is a non issue for most areas.
Only space being actively fought over or having been recently conquered (ie. fail-space) breaks this mold. Sure markets don't have all the crap available in Empire, but they have what you need at all times (provided it is not fail-space).

So yes, null-sec has the potential to be more of a hassle but rarely in in reality.
Low-sec on the other hand is starved. Prices are 2-3 times high/null-sec due to risk involved and population has remained at the same low pathetic level since forever.
Scaling PI so that low-sec is nearly as good or equal to null-sec would encourage corporations and alliances to stake their claims to the benefit of all.


I think we're just going to have to disagree on the hassle involved in living in 0.0.

Droog 1
Posted - 2010.04.22 15:09:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Scaling PI so that low-sec is nearly as good or equal to null-sec would encourage corporations and alliances to stake their claims to the benefit of all.

Less people using the planet means higher returns. After the initial rush, Empire will be saturated and smart people will, hopefully, start using lowsec. I see this as a buff to lowsec.


Reptzo
Channel 4 News Team
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2010.04.22 15:10:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Life in 0.0 has a much higher strain in terms of logistics, infrastructure and just general hassle compared to life potentially next to empire space with NPC owned stations.

So you are basing it on theory-crafting?

Developed null-sec space can have more amenities than even high-sec and between bridges, freighters + other capitals and local manufacture logistics is a non issue for most areas.
Only space being actively fought over or having been recently conquered (ie. fail-space) breaks this mold. Sure markets don't have all the crap available in Empire, but they have what you need at all times (provided it is not fail-space).

So yes, null-sec has the potential to be more of a hassle but rarely in in reality.
Low-sec on the other hand is starved. Prices are 2-3 times high/null-sec due to risk involved and population has remained at the same low pathetic level since forever.
Scaling PI so that low-sec is nearly as good or equal to null-sec would encourage corporations and alliances to stake their claims to the benefit of all.


I think we're just going to have to disagree on the hassle involved in living in 0.0.


I am going to have to side with soundwave on this one. Have you ever tried running logistics to an area of 0.0 3 or more cynos (max skills) from empire? Running fuel for 20-40 poses? Plus ammos/ships that aren't or cant be made in 0.0? first few runs are not so bad, after a month of spending a few hours trying to get the transport fleet together, waiting for or finding systems to jump through that aren't filled with hostiles, it just old and frustrating, and turns eve into a new form of self hate.

Hud Bannon
Posted - 2010.04.22 16:03:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: ElvenLord
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Part of the feedback we get from the CSM (and many of you), is that we don’t put enough development time into features after they are released. In some cases, you are right, we’re stuck between the evolution of EVE and the rebuilding of feature infrastructure to help it grow. Sadly we can’t clone ourselves (YET).


Originally by: CCP Soundwave
The end rewards will come off the NPC market. Basically you'll be able to build POS structures, sov structures, POS fuel (the NPC seeded parts), T2 components (the NPC seeded parts again), station components and nanite repair paste. Might be forgetting something, but that's it I think.

Its nice to be heard. Both development part and final product where a big part of our discussion on this expansion during CCP-CSM summit.

Would be nice if you would share info on/if there is ability to disrupt someones production (orbital bombardment) and stuff like that + link to Dust ...


Yeah. Mostly the issue is that our product is very shaped by our development. We'll find ideas that worked less well in practice, have to cut things out because of time constraints, or simply come up with better solutions down the road. Some people in this thread have pointed to what we showed as our vision at fanfest for example. The inherent risk we have, everytime we talk about the future, is that a product will never turn out in the exact shape and form it has in our heads x months before development.

So we could certainly share our current thoughts on disruption, but those are subject to change the closer we get to working on them :)


Just remember, its like my Dad used to tell me, "If something is worth doing, its worth doing right."

Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
Posted - 2010.04.22 16:33:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Reptzo

I am going to have to side with soundwave on this one. Have you ever tried running logistics to an area of 0.0 3 or more cynos (max skills) from empire? Running fuel for 20-40 poses? Plus ammos/ships that aren't or cant be made in 0.0? first few runs are not so bad, after a month of spending a few hours trying to get the transport fleet together, waiting for or finding systems to jump through that aren't filled with hostiles, it just old and frustrating, and turns eve into a new form of self hate.

And that is EXACTLY the reason why rewards should be LOWEST in nullsec. Nullsec corps will use PI to fuel posses no matter if they get the highest rewards or the lowest. Exactly for the reason that you and CCP Soundwave said: Getting it from elsewhere is hard. So it will be always interesting to use PI in nullsec no matter what.
However in highsec it's a different story. NOBODY will be able to sell ANY pos fuels if nullsec produces them on their own. So added to that you get the lowest rewards in highsec/lowsec. That just doesn't make any sense.

Driven Marcelli
Minmatar
Evil Overhead
Posted - 2010.04.22 16:41:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Amida Ta
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Jongo Fett
highest rewards should be in low sec tbh. Just to populate low sec that little bit more.


We've scaled it with 0.0 being the highest output.

Could you please explain why?

See my post above why imho this doesn't make sense.


Life in 0.0 has a much higher strain in terms of logistics, infrastructure and just general hassle compared to life potentially next to empire space with NPC owned stations.
ok lets review

0.0 you dont have to worry about wardecs(I know sounds crazy but its true)

Any outfit with any persistant clame of 0.0 tends to have the other resources you need to help out on whatever project your running just a Voip beep away at most

you dont have to get moongoo off the market

you dont have to go Wspace diveing for minerals unless you realy screwed up. Wspace in 0.0 is for T3

Liorah
Posted - 2010.04.22 17:37:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Driven Marcelli
ok lets review

0.0 you dont have to worry about wardecs(I know sounds crazy but its true)

Any outfit with any persistant clame of 0.0 tends to have the other resources you need to help out on whatever project your running just a Voip beep away at most

you dont have to get moongoo off the market

you dont have to go Wspace diveing for minerals unless you realy screwed up. Wspace in 0.0 is for T3

From everything that I've heard in my two months or so of playing, Nullsec is MUCH easier and MUCH safer than anywhere else in the game for the average Nullsec dweller. I've yet to hear reasons why this is not the case in anything I've read or from anyone I've talked to, except when there is war .. which is what many people out in Nullsec seem to be looking for anyway. This is for Sovereign space. NPC space seems more like Lowsec without the safety nets.

It DOES sound like, however, that Nullsec is annoying for the small handful of people who have to organize everything. And you know what? That's why not everyone is cut out to be a massive alliance leader, or why not everyone even wants to do that.

Large Nullsec alliances have MANY benefits that no one else has.
Large Nullsec alliances have drawbacks that no one else has.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[cynical mode]
So, in reality, PI is little more than a way for Nullsec alliances to avoid having to leave their safety bubble and "struggle" through Empire space?
[/cynical mode]

Liorah
Posted - 2010.04.22 17:45:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Reptzo
I am going to have to side with soundwave on this one. Have you ever tried running logistics to an area of 0.0 3 or more cynos (max skills) from empire? Running fuel for 20-40 poses? Plus ammos/ships that aren't or cant be made in 0.0? first few runs are not so bad, after a month of spending a few hours trying to get the transport fleet together, waiting for or finding systems to jump through that aren't filled with hostiles, it just old and frustrating, and turns eve into a new form of self hate.

While this sounds like just the kind of headache the leadership team is concerned with, like I've already mentioned, it doesn't address the average Nullsec dweller ... the one who maybe has to log their ice miner alt in a couple times a month, or sit at a gatecamp for a few hours while they chat with some friends, or any other myriad tasks that, when broken up among all of the members of the alliance, become rather trivial for each individual member.

I honestly don't see why Soverign space Nullsec has production bonuses over NPC space Nullsec. NPC space seems much more dangerous to live in for any sizeable force. I would say the bonuses should be:

Hisec Empire < Lowsec & Sov Nullsec < NPC Nullsec

PI will even make it so fewer Empire trips are necessary, since you will be able to produce what you previously had to purchase.

Harotak
Malicious Destruction
Posted - 2010.04.22 18:43:00 - [236]
 

Still awaiting the "nuke from orbit" expansion.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.22 20:50:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Jim Luc on 22/04/2010 20:50:15
Originally by: Clansworth
Originally by: Jim Luc
Agreed. It's difficult to get my hopes up, then to realize what was promised isn't going to be released in this first iteration - only "we'll be expanding it, trust us".

I am puzzled why the teaser mentions "ruling" when there is no actual "ruling" in this first iteration.

I remember where polution / population was one of the factors they talked about. Civilization / Sim City, etc was mentioned as comparisons.



Agreed.. there's far more 'ruling' and population management in Social City on facebook... seriously.. that's just sad...


No, what's sad is that I actually play Social City! (not much anymore, but....) ugh

Sciencegeek deathdealer
Posted - 2010.04.22 21:42:00 - [238]
 

Edited by: Sciencegeek deathdealer on 22/04/2010 21:43:35
Any info on when the next iteration of PI will hit sisi?

EDIT: /me begins banging on the f5 key! Razz

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.04.22 22:12:00 - [239]
 

BTW thanks to CCP Soundwave for posting. It's good to have the proof that the devs are listening and the more devs explain their motivation the better.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2010.04.22 22:13:00 - [240]
 


Sadly, as far as i can see, there is no exploration/probes of any kind involved with PI, am I right? You just click on the planet and it is automagically scanned for you. Am I right in this understanding?

If I am correct, it's a pity, and I hope it will be taken into account in a subsequent iteration. Also, will it BE meaningful in asubsequent iteration, or will the resources be so static that once known they will always be there?


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