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Jongo Fett
Caldari
Save Yourself Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:02:00 - [181]
 

Soundwave will we be told how many people have command centres on the planet that we are interested in harvesting as it will be instanced?

Since if the mining rates are affected by how many people are mining the same area this could cause issues if we unknowingly go to a planet that has a huge population already on it and mean that we dont actually end up mining alot at all and just wasting time.

It also worries me how you will transition from instanced to shared planets Confused

iP0D
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:05:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Kidney Seller
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Kidney Seller
Can you confirm that PI in Tyrannis (on TQ) will be instanced like on SiSi ?
While im pretty sure the answer is yes, I'd like to hear it from someone with blue bars :)


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by instanced? They all tap into the same resource reserve, hopefully you'll be able to trade directly with other colonies in the future and really want some conflict in there too.



Like, you know, will I be able to see other people's stuff ? Will we be on the same planet surface or will each of us get our personal copy of the planet we'll be able to exploit.
That's how instances work ;)
You said something about 'same resource reserve' - are you trying to say that if, let's say, 10 people (who dont know about each other if it's instanced) will mine on the same planet, the amounts mined will decrease and eventually deplete?

Thanks in advance


Well, sofar you can't see other people on planets. Could be standing right next to you, but nada.

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:24:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Liorah
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by instanced? They all tap into the same resource reserve, hopefully you'll be able to trade directly with other colonies in the future and really want some conflict in there too.

What seems to be the biggest concern is the fact that in the beginning, no one will see anyone else's installations. Does that mean:

1) You will try to build in a spot and be told "no, you can't build there"?

2) You can build anywhere, potentially on top of someone else's infrastructure.

In situation #1, that is non-instanced. There is one world, and two ground structures cannot occupy the same space in the same world.

In situation #2, that is instanced. You have your own little copy of the world, you can build what you want wherever you want, regardless of what anyone else does. The coordinates locating your installation in your instance could be the same coordinates someone else (or a hundred others) use in their instance; ie: many structures occupying the same space in multiple copies of the world.

If situation #2 is how things are going to work, so far the leading question has been: how will this be resolved when it comes to the point in time when we CAN see stuff belonging to others? A generic answer like "structures may be moved" or "the planet surface may be cleared/reset" is basically what people are looking for.

Unless of course you're trolling. And then the score is CCP Soundwave: 1, me: 0



We may be misunderstanding each other. When I think about instances in game terms, I think of myself in an isolated space that no one else can influence. The game environment is unique to me and can be copied multiple times over for other users.

That is not how PI is currently works.

You are all in the same game space, but for a variety of reasons, some parts of your interaction will be gradually introduced. So at release for example, you should be able to browse parts, if not all, of another players network. This is important, as resources are shared, so multiple people harvesting the same spot will bring the value of that spot down. So you're not isolated, the more people you have close to you, the less value you may experience in the resource.

In the future, we will do more to facilitate trade, conflict and other forms of interaction. You will have some interaction tools but not a great deal at launch, but rest assured you are all in the same game environment. We will be adding more ways of looking, poking and blowing other peoples stuff along the way.

But you're not alone Cool

Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:34:00 - [184]
 

What about lag?, does planetary mode run in its own server or uses resources from its existing SOL?

Liorah
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:35:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
The game environment is unique to me and can be copied multiple times over for other users.

That is not how PI is currently works.

You are all in the same game space, but for a variety of reasons, some parts of your interaction will be gradually introduced. So at release for example, you should be able to browse parts, if not all, of another players network. This is important, as resources are shared, so multiple people harvesting the same spot will bring the value of that spot down. So you're not isolated, the more people you have close to you, the less value you may experience in the resource.

Only looking for a yes/no answer, but have you guys planned for the possibility that I might try to build infrastructure on the exact same spot you have already built infrastructure? If this is not intended behaviour, do you have a way to resolve the two objects/one location problem?

Driven Marcelli
Minmatar
Evil Overhead
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:44:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Liorah
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by instanced? They all tap into the same resource reserve, hopefully you'll be able to trade directly with other colonies in the future and really want some conflict in there too.

What seems to be the biggest concern is the fact that in the beginning, no one will see anyone else's installations. Does that mean:

1) You will try to build in a spot and be told "no, you can't build there"?

2) You can build anywhere, potentially on top of someone else's infrastructure.

In situation #1, that is non-instanced. There is one world, and two ground structures cannot occupy the same space in the same world.

In situation #2, that is instanced. You have your own little copy of the world, you can build what you want wherever you want, regardless of what anyone else does. The coordinates locating your installation in your instance could be the same coordinates someone else (or a hundred others) use in their instance; ie: many structures occupying the same space in multiple copies of the world.

If situation #2 is how things are going to work, so far the leading question has been: how will this be resolved when it comes to the point in time when we CAN see stuff belonging to others? A generic answer like "structures may be moved" or "the planet surface may be cleared/reset" is basically what people are looking for.

Unless of course you're trolling. And then the score is CCP Soundwave: 1, me: 0



We may be misunderstanding each other. When I think about instances in game terms, I think of myself in an isolated space that no one else can influence. The game environment is unique to me and can be copied multiple times over for other users.

That is not how PI is currently works.

You are all in the same game space, but for a variety of reasons, some parts of your interaction will be gradually introduced. So at release for example, you should be able to browse parts, if not all, of another players network. This is important, as resources are shared, so multiple people harvesting the same spot will bring the value of that spot down. So you're not isolated, the more people you have close to you, the less value you may experience in the resource.

In the future, we will do more to facilitate trade, conflict and other forms of interaction. You will have some interaction tools but not a great deal at launch, but rest assured you are all in the same game environment. We will be adding more ways of looking, poking and blowing other peoples stuff along the way.

But you're not alone Cool
Actualy, currently stacking pins on top of someone elses pins causes the planet to become unnaccessable, that or I had the freakish luck of trying to do so on worlds that broke.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:48:00 - [187]
 

So I'm sure you guys are way ahead of me on this, but has any thought been put into the inflation this could create by cutting out a large isk sink from the system?

Could you share CCP's thoughts on the new outflows?

Liorah
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:53:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
We're going to expand on it.

Oki, I'll bite.

1) Will we be able to "undeploy" our installations and move somewhere else? I'm a new player, and still making up my mind on what I want to do, adjusting my activities based on skill developments, etc. Other players who are not-so-new make the same choices all the time as well.

2) Related to #1, when an installation is dropped onto a planet, is it like nullsec outposts in that it becomes permanent? At that point, you only fight for control of the installation instead of "undeploy" or destroy?

3) You guys have mentioned that population/workforce is desired. Would you please consider the following things when implementing or discussing the workforce:

a) Allow us to supply (and harvest) the population of planets/installations.
b) Allow us to use the various "people" commodities that we've been collecting (Janitors, exotic dancers, slaves, etc).
c) Add options to increase the happiness (recreation facilities) and health/safety (medical facilities) of our people to increase production.
d) People need places to live, no?
e) Happier, healthier people tend to work better/harder/more productive.
f) Why is everyone on that planet suddenly having children, causing a population boom? Is there something in the water??

4) Terrestrial environments are much more economical than space. Allow us to bring some POS-like facilities to planets to lower costs for manufacturing and research (can use some of those Scientist "people" commodities). Sometimes, specific environments are required to build certain technologies ... say, the wolf rayet anomaly in that W-space system for building certain T3 frigate components, and that black hole over in the next W-space system is perfect for other T3 frigate components.

5) Related to #4, planet environments are not all like Earth: some are harsh and require different environmental protection (radiation shields, physical shields against meteorites, underwater oxygenation facilities, etc).

6) Circles and dots are easy to implement for development, but it's not release-quality if that's all there is. When looking at a planet, can we see something at least as detailed as our ships? There can easily be installation control windows that provide all the stats and manipulation at a glance for all of our installations on the planet surface.

7) Will you consider adding an exploration tie-in?

a) When scanning a planet, choose a different probe type to search for artifacts: these could range from resource/mineral deposits to wild and unknown tech (W-space) that needs to be reverse engineered. The resource deposits in W-space could even be new mineral types (just like W-space Gravi sites should have some unusual ores to mine as well, to be used in T3 construction).

b) Have alternate structures to deploy on the planet surface that allow a temporary scientific or archaeological expedition (couple days) to uncover the hidden resource. Maybe a mining crew, or a salvage team, or a research team, or a combat team to raid a rogue military outpost potentially holding new tech or other resources.

c) As a tie-in to DUST, perhaps ground forces would be needed to subdue any defenses or native hazards left behind for some of the better archaeological finds, and to bring any tech back to base (for additional rewards to the DUST players).

d) Have limited numbers of simultaneous expeditions allowed, and they evemail you (or your corporation) when they finish so you can come back and pick them up.

e) The same hazards for colonization apply to expeditions: the greatest treasures could be found on the planets that require the most advanced environmental protection equipment.

f) Your leadership skills determine the skill level of the people you can recruit for expeditions, and how successful/efficient you are. Dangerous places require fast and efficient operations.

Just some quick ideas off the top of my head.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.04.21 19:07:00 - [189]
 

Quote:
We will be adding more ways of looking, poking and blowing other peoples stuff along the way.


Ah HA!!! So this means prostitutes WILL be a population type we can manipulate in the future. Excellent! Wink

iP0D
Posted - 2010.04.21 19:37:00 - [190]
 

Just out of curiosity, which iteration will give us moments like this?

Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
Posted - 2010.04.21 20:03:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

4. Well 0.0 space will have the highest rewards, so there will be an advantage to being in a sov holding alliance.

Could you please explain that? A general notion in Eve seems to be risk vs. reward. And following that formula rewards in 0.0 space should likely be the lowest.

The reasons are very simple: For a sov holding alliance PI in 0.0 CLEARLY has a much lower risk than doing PI in Highsec. In fact it even has less risk than currently (aka buying from NPCs and then transporting into the own territory).

If you asses the risks you can see that PI is entirely save most of the time (planetary structures cannot be attacked or otherwise be destroyed or be interfered with). The only difference is in delivering and getting products. And for any 0.0 corp doing that in their own space is actually MUCH safer than doing it in highsec. The only potential risk would be to loose sovereignity. But even then you could either recapture it or you could simply build up new PI structures (as it seems now that is a cheap process).

So we have less risk because:
+ Not being exposed to enemies while delivering/retrieving products
+ Not having to buy in remote places and having risk in transferring it
+ Not having resources and time tied up in transferring
+ Producing goods near the required places (e.g. POSes) and needing to maintain less inventory.
+ Getting independent from devliveries/blockades, etc.

And we have more risk because:
- You could loose sovereignity in that system.

If you compare that it's pretty obvious that it will be overall LESS risky in 0.0 so why should 0.0 have the highest rewards????

Masada Akiva
Gallente
Tribe Research and Development
Posted - 2010.04.21 20:22:00 - [192]
 

You (CCP) have not responded to the many posts pleading to have PI exhibit some gameplay mechanics as opposed to being only another way to set up jobs and wait. I know it is really hard to have a "Wow! Wouldn't it be cool if" discussion at Fanfest knowing that not all the features could ever be put in... BUT... Will PI ever have fun/cool game mechanics? I can see now that it will, at least, be a new way to perform industry and will (likely) be a vehicle for new combat opportunity (someday). But again, is it still on someone's project sheet to make it "game within a game"?

Jongo Fett
Caldari
Save Yourself Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.21 20:23:00 - [193]
 

highest rewards should be in low sec tbh. Just to populate low sec that little bit more.

Lord Helghast
Posted - 2010.04.21 20:32:00 - [194]
 

honestly its my belief that it shud go

1. Lowsec
2. Nullsec
3. highsec

in the richness of whats found in the systems...

Soundwave/Fallout is their any sort of interaction? i mean i understand theirs an arbitrary amount of ore on the planet, but currently we ahve no way at all to see which deposits are being killed by 10000000000000 people and wich one is fresh and no ones touched....

nor can we see how many people have colonized a world... this is all basic info needed if we cant see the other structures at launch....

another problem i see here is if in the future u plan to allow us to move to a grid based system and see each other... doesnt that mean when that mode gets switched on 99% of our structures are going to be on top of other peoples?

Komi Toran
Posted - 2010.04.21 21:25:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Liorah
Only looking for a yes/no answer, but have you guys planned for the possibility that I might try to build infrastructure on the exact same spot you have already built infrastructure? If this is not intended behaviour, do you have a way to resolve the two objects/one location problem?

I'm trying to figure out why people think this is a problem. You're looking at the surface of a planet from space with buildings represented by icons that are not 1:1 analogs of what they represent. Buildings that appear to be on the exact same spot from space could easily be ten miles away from each other on the surface.

As for overlapping links... well, mankind figured out how to solve that problem eighty-some years ago.

I'd imagine that, in the future if CCP wanted you to be able to interact with another player's structure, you'd simply apply filters on the planet so that you only see that alliance's/corp's/player's structures, and not have to deal with accidentally clicking the wrong extractor out of five that are at that general location.

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.21 22:24:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Sigras
So I'm sure you guys are way ahead of me on this, but has any thought been put into the inflation this could create by cutting out a large isk sink from the system?

Could you share CCP's thoughts on the new outflows?


Yeah. We have a pretty thorough research and statistics department that has been following our development since the start. Currently, one of their employees is on our team monitoring the balancing and possible effects of this to make sure we're not venturing down any wrong paths.

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.21 22:26:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Jongo Fett
highest rewards should be in low sec tbh. Just to populate low sec that little bit more.


We've scaled it with 0.0 being the highest output.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.04.21 22:27:00 - [198]
 

Edited by: Camios on 21/04/2010 22:31:37
I think that, given the complexity of the production chain, interaction between players will be crucial in reducing the difficulty associated with the whole production chain.

How can you think that players will handle such a complex apparatus and provide an adequate amount of NPC goods?


My prediction is that if NPC goods are unseeded, starbase fuel and structures will become extremely expensive.
And if NPC goods are not unseeded, the profitability of PI in terms of ISK/hour will be ridiculous.





Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.04.21 22:56:00 - [199]
 

You put that horse there to make me angry, didn't you.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.22 00:23:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Liorah
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by instanced? They all tap into the same resource reserve, ...
What seems to be the biggest concern is the fact that in the beginning, no one will see anyone else's installations. Does that mean:
1) You will try to build in a spot and be told "no, you can't build there"?
2) You can build anywhere, potentially on top of someone else's infrastructure.
[..]
We may be misunderstanding each other. When I think about instances in game terms, I think of myself in an isolated space that no one else can influence. The game environment is unique to me and can be copied multiple times over for other users.

That is not how PI is currently works.

You are all in the same game space, but for a variety of reasons, some parts of your interaction will be gradually introduced. So at release for example, you should be able to browse parts, if not all, of another players network. This is important, as resources are shared, so multiple people harvesting the same spot will bring the value of that spot down. So you're not isolated, the more people you have close to you, the less value you may experience in the resource. [..]

So, when PI will be introduced to TQ we'll be able to at least SEE others peoples installations on the planet? Yes/No?
Thanks.

Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
Posted - 2010.04.22 00:59:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Jongo Fett
highest rewards should be in low sec tbh. Just to populate low sec that little bit more.


We've scaled it with 0.0 being the highest output.

Could you please explain why?

See my post above why imho this doesn't make sense.

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.22 01:28:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Amida Ta
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Jongo Fett
highest rewards should be in low sec tbh. Just to populate low sec that little bit more.


We've scaled it with 0.0 being the highest output.

Could you please explain why?

See my post above why imho this doesn't make sense.


Life in 0.0 has a much higher strain in terms of logistics, infrastructure and just general hassle compared to life potentially next to empire space with NPC owned stations.

Sciencegeek deathdealer
Posted - 2010.04.22 01:33:00 - [203]
 

when will we see the next sisi patch with most of what we can produce?

Infinion
Caldari
Awesome Corp
Posted - 2010.04.22 02:33:00 - [204]
 

Can we please have the ability to build Giant Secure Containers and the likes?

Victor Valka
Caldari
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2010.04.22 03:45:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: CCP TomB
Is it the beer?
Shocked

The Apocalypse must be coming, because TomB has been set free!

Run! Hide! Cower!


Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.22 04:55:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Liorah
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
The game environment is unique to me and can be copied multiple times over for other users.

That is not how PI is currently works.

You are all in the same game space, but for a variety of reasons, some parts of your interaction will be gradually introduced. So at release for example, you should be able to browse parts, if not all, of another players network. This is important, as resources are shared, so multiple people harvesting the same spot will bring the value of that spot down. So you're not isolated, the more people you have close to you, the less value you may experience in the resource.

Only looking for a yes/no answer, but have you guys planned for the possibility that I might try to build infrastructure on the exact same spot you have already built infrastructure? If this is not intended behaviour, do you have a way to resolve the two objects/one location problem?

I think you are underestimating the scales at which we operate here.

How big do you think those facilities are? How large do you thing the distances you are seeing from orbit really are?

Even if you and some other guy puts a pin in the exact same spot, those would still not necessarily be physically on top of each other in the real (game) world. They could be built side-by-side and still occupy the same pixels. You could build dozens there and they would still occupy the same pixels.

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2010.04.22 05:13:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer
when will we see the next sisi patch with most of what we can produce?


I think pretty much everything is already there. I'm sure numbers may be tweaked prior to release, but the actual products themselves seem pretty complete.

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2010.04.22 05:24:00 - [208]
 

Good marks for developing a very deep additional industrial chain. I do very much like that there are so many levels of production here, and, at least currently, it's pretty much impossible for someone to efficiently complete a chain from raw to final by themselves. this is good, and really builds on the eve economy.

Bad marks, however, on creating planetary interaction. There really is nothing here that makes it 'planetary' in nature other than the background that your structures sit on. This is definately NOT the level of interst I had hoped for. The key difference between sucking rocks in space, and sucking rocks on a planet, should be that the planet is, well.. more 'permanent'. However, this system is very much looking like it will be a stick down pins until they are dried up, then stick down new pins somewhere else... there's no permanence here.. there's no development... certainly nothing even close to resembling a 'colony'.

Dominion had a lot of talk about 'improving your space', but there's no real path to 'upgrade' your planets... they are really nothing more than big asteroids at this point. I certainly hope that the future improvement doesn't ramp down at all on this, because this is still goint to be a VERY incomplete part of eve when tyrannis hits next month.

1. It's good to get the productino chain going first, as that's going to be the drive to get people intersted in planets.. i do agree with that step.
2. Population management HAS to be introduced. This should have many possitive effects. It will encourage players to care about their planets (not so much to care about the lowly mortals - but to care about the planets themselves, and the development they have spurred along - whether that be through vitoc or pleasure hubs).
3. There has to be a way to show off those improved planets. The surface of a planet should not be just am empty canvas forever. Even if a there isnt' a system to always show every player's developments on a given world, there should at the very least be some form of development index for the planet. This would cause the surface to evolve over time (cities, pollution, etc). It should also affect your workforce. The already developed worlds of empire should have a much more readily available workforce than the fringe systems.

I'm just hoping these things are in sight of Team Pi...

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.22 05:56:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Clansworth
Good marks for developing a very deep additional industrial chain. I do very much like that there are so many levels of production here, and, at least currently, it's pretty much impossible for someone to efficiently complete a chain from raw to final by themselves. this is good, and really builds on the eve economy.

Bad marks, however, on creating planetary interaction. There really is nothing here that makes it 'planetary' in nature other than the background that your structures sit on. This is definately NOT the level of interst I had hoped for. The key difference between sucking rocks in space, and sucking rocks on a planet, should be that the planet is, well.. more 'permanent'. However, this system is very much looking like it will be a stick down pins until they are dried up, then stick down new pins somewhere else... there's no permanence here.. there's no development... certainly nothing even close to resembling a 'colony'.

Dominion had a lot of talk about 'improving your space', but there's no real path to 'upgrade' your planets... they are really nothing more than big asteroids at this point. I certainly hope that the future improvement doesn't ramp down at all on this, because this is still goint to be a VERY incomplete part of eve when tyrannis hits next month.

1. It's good to get the productino chain going first, as that's going to be the drive to get people intersted in planets.. i do agree with that step.
2. Population management HAS to be introduced. This should have many possitive effects. It will encourage players to care about their planets (not so much to care about the lowly mortals - but to care about the planets themselves, and the development they have spurred along - whether that be through vitoc or pleasure hubs).
3. There has to be a way to show off those improved planets. The surface of a planet should not be just am empty canvas forever. Even if a there isnt' a system to always show every player's developments on a given world, there should at the very least be some form of development index for the planet. This would cause the surface to evolve over time (cities, pollution, etc). It should also affect your workforce. The already developed worlds of empire should have a much more readily available workforce than the fringe systems.

I'm just hoping these things are in sight of Team Pi...


Agreed. It's difficult to get my hopes up, then to realize what was promised isn't going to be released in this first iteration - only "we'll be expanding it, trust us".

I am puzzled why the teaser mentions "ruling" when there is no actual "ruling" in this first iteration.

I remember where polution / population was one of the factors they talked about. Civilization / Sim City, etc was mentioned as comparisons.

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2010.04.22 06:05:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc
Agreed. It's difficult to get my hopes up, then to realize what was promised isn't going to be released in this first iteration - only "we'll be expanding it, trust us".

I am puzzled why the teaser mentions "ruling" when there is no actual "ruling" in this first iteration.

I remember where polution / population was one of the factors they talked about. Civilization / Sim City, etc was mentioned as comparisons.



Agreed.. there's far more 'ruling' and population management in Social City on facebook... seriously.. that's just sad...


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