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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2010.04.16 21:20:00 - [1]
 

CCP Greyscale's newest blog is on the changes to the previous proposed Deep Space Bookmarks proposal. Read it all here.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:23:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 16/04/2010 21:29:47

This should be good... also, first.

Edit: I've done the impossible- in before Chribba. :)

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:27:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Chribba on 16/04/2010 21:29:56
Wheeee

"The furthest bookmark is 5,900,000,000 AU (95,000 light years) from its sun." <-- Thís happen to be one of the old "system" bookmarks? Seeing asi ti would be virtually impossible to make this one manually using the old technique...? Just asking since it would be cool to actually know if they had a max limit, as my POD only warped some 3,000AU with its cap back in the days.

Mystrin Micro
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:27:00 - [4]
 

I'm ok with this.

And wow at the furthest BM out.

Broderick Cahal
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:29:00 - [5]
 

Sounds good and yeah lol at the furthest BM.

Rokkit Kween
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:35:00 - [6]
 

Can we get some clarification on a couple of things:

1. will points outside the new 20AU boundary be bookmarkable?
2. Will points outside the boundary be warpable?

I'll quote the blog to show where the confusion arises:

Quote:
No restrictions will be made on warping, module activation etc.


I ask because in the original 'solution' it would seem to have been possible to warp to a point just inside the boundary and then move across it, rendering your ship basically invulnerable whilst still being visible on d-scan and able to be probed. Has this possible exploit been addressed?

Also: First page! Yay!

Pellit1
Caldari
Fatality.
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:41:00 - [7]
 

Bloody hell that's a long safespot... that would take about a day to warp to in a blummin transport ship.

Anyway, I still think that bookmarks up to the new border need to be creatable, unless of course CCP has fixed the 'non loading grid' lag.

Ryas Nia
Minmatar
Veto.
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:43:00 - [8]
 

posting to confirm that Ops is infact awesome!

Jimer Lins
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:45:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Jimer Lins on 16/04/2010 21:47:09
Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, but 5.9 billion AU in a max-skilled covops with T2 warp speed rigs comes out to 8.8 years, assuming you were going 24/7 (no downtime).

Edit: Also assumes infinite cap and no rewarping, so in reality MUCH longer.

How did anyone get that bookmark?

Caladain Barton
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:45:00 - [10]
 

Some food for thought:

The knowledge of how to create deep safe spots in a variety of ways have been known to the 0.0 community for a long time. The reason you've seen a dramatic rise in their every-day use is because it was determined that cynoing in at that distance, in effect, gave your fleet the couple minutes it needed unmolested on a grid to load the system.

Once the lag is fixed, fleets will stop using them. We *like* to drop and siege green on landing. Dropping 1000au is a work around to enable us to shed the blood of our enemies. Twisted Evil

Here's my argument:
Lets say you fix the crippling, soul crushing fleet lag. 0.0 citizens rejoice, and much blood is shed, and everyone is happy. Next patch, the crippling lag comes back. If you remove deep safe spots, you effectively removing this workaround that *might* allow us to resume combat while you fixed the lag again. Evil or Very Mad

Conclusion:
No one seriously used DSS before the crippling lag. FC's started using DSS as it is the only work around for the crippling lag. If you remove DSS, Fleet combat, which now consists of just BS or smaller engagements, stops (pardoning the stupid FC's..who won't be FC's for long slaughtering their fleets mindlessly to blackscreens). If you fix the lag, people won't have a need for DSS, and will stop using them for fleet battles. If you remove DSS after you've fixed the lag, and the next patch comes out and lags the game out again, there will be zero work-arounds. Evil or Very Mad

That, and it's epic to have your cap fly for 10 minutes in system. Pure epic. Very Happy

Removing the ability to create DSS? You're removing one of the few tools that works from a Fleet Commander's belt..you always tell us that we have to be aware, plan, and work around the lag in the replies to petitions. This is one of the ways we plan and work around the lag, and it works.
Evil or Very Mad

CCP Lemur

Posted - 2010.04.16 21:47:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Rokkit Kween
Can we get some clarification on a couple of things:

1. will points outside the new 20AU boundary be bookmarkable?
2. Will points outside the boundary be warpable?



Yes, if you feel like burning your mwd for months to make a new bookmark you can do so. The space outside of the barrier which isn't a barrier is like any other space. Apart from there being nothing Smile

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:49:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Jimer Lins
Edited by: Jimer Lins on 16/04/2010 21:47:09
Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, but 5.9 billion AU in a max-skilled covops with T2 warp speed rigs comes out to 8.8 years, assuming you were going 24/7 (no downtime).

Edit: Also assumes infinite cap and no rewarping, so in reality MUCH longer.

How did anyone get that bookmark?



I'm guessing that it dates from very early in EVE, when it was possible to open the map, right-click and create bookmarks at points 'between' stars. Perhaps someone zoomed out as far as possible before right-clicking?

Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:49:00 - [13]
 

Looks good to me.

The resonable complaints of the old plan have been resolved.

Also Tryanis provides a bunch of loot pinatas!

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:51:00 - [14]
 

any chance you guys can wait with implementing this until you have fixed it so ppl can jump into a system in fleet fights and not die while staring at a black screen?

William Caldon
Caldari
Golden Cross Enterprises
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:51:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Caladain Barton
Some food for thought:

The knowledge of how to create deep safe spots in a variety of ways have been known to the 0.0 community for a long time. The reason you've seen a dramatic rise in their every-day use is because it was determined that cynoing in at that distance, in effect, gave your fleet the couple minutes it needed unmolested on a grid to load the system.

Once the lag is fixed, fleets will stop using them. We *like* to drop and siege green on landing. Dropping 1000au is a work around to enable us to shed the blood of our enemies. Twisted Evil

Here's my argument:
Lets say you fix the crippling, soul crushing fleet lag. 0.0 citizens rejoice, and much blood is shed, and everyone is happy. Next patch, the crippling lag comes back. If you remove deep safe spots, you effectively removing this workaround that *might* allow us to resume combat while you fixed the lag again. Evil or Very Mad

Conclusion:
No one seriously used DSS before the crippling lag. FC's started using DSS as it is the only work around for the crippling lag. If you remove DSS, Fleet combat, which now consists of just BS or smaller engagements, stops (pardoning the stupid FC's..who won't be FC's for long slaughtering their fleets mindlessly to blackscreens). If you fix the lag, people won't have a need for DSS, and will stop using them for fleet battles. If you remove DSS after you've fixed the lag, and the next patch comes out and lags the game out again, there will be zero work-arounds. Evil or Very Mad

That, and it's epic to have your cap fly for 10 minutes in system. Pure epic. Very Happy

Removing the ability to create DSS? You're removing one of the few tools that works from a Fleet Commander's belt..you always tell us that we have to be aware, plan, and work around the lag in the replies to petitions. This is one of the ways we plan and work around the lag, and it works.
Evil or Very Mad


So in other words, because ppl keep lagging the system out, you say its ok for a mechanic to exist which isn't an "OK" mechanic and is basically a hack of the game? Stop fooling yourself. I've never used this mechanic b4 and I won't miss it when its gone. Eve isn't safe and this is not a good thing to keep in-game.

Rokkit Kween
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:55:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Rokkit Kween on 16/04/2010 21:55:29
@ CCP Lemur: So we will still be able to warp to objects beyond the boundary (that is not a boundary apparently, not confusing the issue at all)? Yes or No?

Edit: Wow two posts on the first page, Epic win :D

Crystal Starbreeze
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:55:00 - [17]
 

This is a lot better than before; but I would still like a legitimate way of deeper safes to be supported by CCP.

A warp beacon (bookmark) probe launched like a moon probe with a specific lifetime (perhaps it can only be launched within a certain distance of a celestial object).

I want a REASON for the 256AU deep safe probes (I used to have a reason because of stuff that is out there, now it won't be :( ).



Caladain Barton
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:55:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: William Caldon
Originally by: Caladain Barton
Some food for thought:
Evil or Very Mad


So in other words, because ppl keep lagging the system out, you say its ok for a mechanic to exist which isn't an "OK" mechanic and is basically a hack of the game? Stop fooling yourself. I've never used this mechanic b4 and I won't miss it when its gone. Eve isn't safe and this is not a good thing to keep in-game.


Having a grid out 1000au doesn't lag systems. Stop showing your bear status. DSS is a workaround for Evil Grid Lag.

Otherwise, fleets blackscreen on jumpin..you get slaughtered before you load system. Stop Trolling

notreallyachar
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:56:00 - [19]
 

I think of all the things to remove, keep that BM and make it a public warp point ha ha!

Lord Helghast
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:58:00 - [20]
 

CCP Fallout: will the grid load issue to make deep safes unneeded for tyrannis release?

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:58:00 - [21]
 

Quote:

# There are around 2,300 items outside the 20AU boundary
# Around 60% of these items are ships
# Around 25% of these ships are unpiloted


How many of those 345 ships are shuttles?

Also will you monitor for new deep safes being created in case you missed a non-published way of making them?

William Caldon
Caldari
Golden Cross Enterprises
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:58:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Caladain Barton
Originally by: William Caldon
Originally by: Caladain Barton
Some food for thought:
Evil or Very Mad


So in other words, because ppl keep lagging the system out, you say its ok for a mechanic to exist which isn't an "OK" mechanic and is basically a hack of the game? Stop fooling yourself. I've never used this mechanic b4 and I won't miss it when its gone. Eve isn't safe and this is not a good thing to keep in-game.


Having a grid out 1000au doesn't lag systems. Stop showing your bear status. DSS is a workaround for Evil Grid Lag.

Otherwise, fleets blackscreen on jumpin..you get slaughtered before you load system. Stop Trolling


No, I'm saying you should quit lagging out the systems. Something, btw, that CCP is working on and cannot fix when you ppl continue to stack 100s and 100s of players into it. DSS shouldn't be a workaround for you. Quit blobbing and maybe you'd quit having lag issues. I'm just sayin.

Th0rG0d
Terminal Pharmaceuticals Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.16 21:59:00 - [23]
 

Wow. 95,000 Light years! That must be some warp. Let's see, @ 10 A.U./s is 2.6M hours?!

(9,500,000,000/10)/360=2638888.889 Shocked Is my math right?!

Good to hear the positive changes to your plan! Who says you don't listen or care about us?!Wink

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.04.16 22:00:00 - [24]
 

Awh. I kind of miss the cold harsh destruction of everything outside the bounds of the system. It was a very EVE-like solution!

Caladain Barton
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.04.16 22:02:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: William Caldon
Originally by: Caladain Barton
Originally by: William Caldon
Originally by: Caladain Barton
Some food for thought:
Evil or Very Mad


So in other words, because ppl keep lagging the system out, you say its ok for a mechanic to exist which isn't an "OK" mechanic and is basically a hack of the game? Stop fooling yourself. I've never used this mechanic b4 and I won't miss it when its gone. Eve isn't safe and this is not a good thing to keep in-game.


Having a grid out 1000au doesn't lag systems. Stop showing your bear status. DSS is a workaround for Evil Grid Lag.

Otherwise, fleets blackscreen on jumpin..you get slaughtered before you load system. Stop Trolling


No, I'm saying you should quit lagging out the systems. Something, btw, that CCP is working on and cannot fix when you ppl continue to stack 100s and 100s of players into it. DSS shouldn't be a workaround for you. Quit blobbing and maybe you'd quit having lag issues. I'm just sayin.


You fail to understand a basic concept:

The number's we're currently fielding are *exactly* the same as pre dominion.

It was workable pre-dominion. Dominion came and the Evil Grid Lag came with it. When/if they fix lag, FC's won't use DSS. Fleet sizes won't go down..if anything they'll just get larger. When CCP screws up something unrelated and it brings back Evil Grid lag, DSS allows 200 man fleets to get in system.

Mr Pikey
Caldari
Posted - 2010.04.16 22:07:00 - [26]
 

"The furthest bookmark is 5,900,000,000 AU (95,000 light years) from its sun."

Well you keep telling people to 'go back to WOW' he did and took his ship with him Laughing.

Sub Trader
Posted - 2010.04.16 22:10:00 - [27]
 

what is the need for removing long distance bookmnarks anyway? bored programmers?

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2010.04.16 22:11:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mr Pikey
"The furthest bookmark is 5,900,000,000 AU (95,000 light years) from its sun."

Well you keep telling people to 'go back to WOW' he did and took his ship with him Laughing.
Laughing

Caladain Barton
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.04.16 22:12:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: CCP Lemur



Also, thanks for the slightly more upfront explanation as to what's been going on in the dev blog. More explanation is always better..technical and non-technical

Jattzia
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.04.16 22:12:00 - [30]
 

The blog completely ignores that DEEP SAFE SPOTS ARE THE ONLY CURRENT WORKAROUND TO LAG.

Are the DEVs too ignorant understand this? Maybe, but some reply to the lag workaround issue raised about 500 times in the last thread would have been nice.

I imagine that what's really going on is that you're *hoping* Tyrannis will magically cure lag, but aren't sure so have a lips-sealed policy at this point.

...

I think you're underestimating how many people are sick of not getting good fights in 0.0, and what affect that is going to have on their subscriptions if it isn't robustly addressed in Tyrannis.


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