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Jongo Fett
Caldari
Save Yourself Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.20 18:26:00 - [91]
 

i did extractors > Storage > Factorys > CC i did this twice on the same planet so there would be only 2 factories.

This works well as the storage facility gives you a buffer if any of the extractors go down. However gives you a slower output of the final product.

I doubt this is the most efficient but i like having the buffer there so that there is no wasted product.

Karth Mentis
Posted - 2010.04.20 20:35:00 - [92]
 

Finally scanned and used some 0.0 systems and a wh system. Preatty much the top place to look. Also low sec works so those maybe will be filled with people after Tyranis.

I wonder how somebody will destroy the cc of a enemy. (we still cant, right?)
The links dosent reach yet the 30% capability even in wh space with super-abudant stuff to extract.
Also I got to ask if planetary stuff its done a la "I Stand Alone"? So its individual and not of corporations.
Also I wonder if the PG and CPU limit its little low. It would be great if it could be half more times bigger.

Karth Mentis
Posted - 2010.04.20 20:50:00 - [93]
 

Also, concerning to the UI.
+Can I ask to make the trade route automatic to the limit?
kinda tiresome to hit the max number that u got to remember allways, and also use a hotkey like the one for making links.

+Can the Submit icon be bigger?
Will help new guys on PI and also again help the fatigue (IT EXISTS)

+Also somebody said that the processors need time between cycles. Can the processor icon show it?
Maybe its like the extractor that it actually the "cycle" circle spins twice. Also please tell if works like that.

Degotjov
The StormWatch
Tarukai Imperium
Posted - 2010.04.20 21:59:00 - [94]
 

Got a question, if someone has already made a colony on one planet is that planet taken then? So i have to find another planet? Or?

menacemyth
Minmatar
Onyx Brotherhood
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2010.04.20 22:05:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: menacemyth on 20/04/2010 22:34:40
I've been at this for a little over a day. So far not as buggy as one would expect during testing. Here's my comments

1) routes definitely need to default at maximum amount produced/cycle

2) maybe tweak the extraction max duration to between 8-->24 hrs. should help with time management of working players.

3) although I understand the need to make players move items from planet to planet, considering the complexity involved in moving up the tier chain of production I would prefer some mechanism for routing between planets for lower tier items. like only products from advanced processors and high-tech factories must be manually moved.

4) Given how spread out resources are on planet, and how much they move over time, requiring that everything be moved to the command center is impossible to maintain. Would be easier to allow launches from space ports so two resources can be mined from diffeent sides of the planet and launched. This is espically true right now since command centers cannot be moved or deleted atm. Another alternative would be to allow lower power/cpu usage routes to be created. I'm on a very nice planet and I still can't possibly see needing 10k m3/hr moved between pins.

Davik Rendar
Gallente
Posted - 2010.04.21 00:02:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Davik Rendar on 21/04/2010 00:04:55
Planet size (or link CPU usage) may need to be looked at, currently the bigger planets don't let you zoom in any closer and result in 1000 CPU links that are only a few pixels long. So big planets are very difficult to put any more than a couple of extractors + processor on, let alone a spaceport.
Also the CPU usage of links means you can only build a base in one area, rather than spread out a bit and make use of nearby alternate resources.

Perhaps putting a cap on link CPU usage could be a solution? And also a max link distance, so you don't end up with people building links that run half way around the other side of the planet?

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.21 00:46:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: menacemyth
3) although I understand the need to make players move items from planet to planet, considering the complexity involved in moving up the tier chain of production I would prefer some mechanism for routing between planets for lower tier items. like only products from advanced processors and high-tech factories must be manually moved.

If one peep can do all alone, cause you give him to many means to do so.. what do you think happens? Also, what do you think the 2nd 'M' in MMORPG stays for?
If ccp really introduces higher tier PCCs with more CPU/PG that should be more than enough.

Originally by: menacemyth
4) Given how spread out resources are on planet, and how much they move over time, requiring that everything be moved to the command center is impossible to maintain. Would be easier to allow launches from space ports so two resources can be mined from diffeent sides of the planet and launched. This is espically true right now since command centers cannot be moved or deleted atm. Another alternative would be to allow lower power/cpu usage routes to be created. I'm on a very nice planet and I still can't possibly see needing 10k m3/hr moved between pins.

Same answer as above.. CCP doesn't seem to want one lone guy to do all the chains possible without him to 'work' hard.

Originally by: Davik Rendar
Planet size (or link CPU usage) may need to be looked at, currently the bigger planets don't let you zoom in any closer and result in 1000 CPU links that are only a few pixels long. So big planets are very difficult to put any more than a couple of extractors + processor on, let alone a spaceport. ..

That's an issue which definitely needs addressing, but I bet is limited because of the texture size for planets.
The actual size of the planet in pi view isn't dependent on the 'physical' size of it.. a 4,000 km radius planet has the same visual appearance as a 170,000km radius gas planet. If you would be able to zoom as far in on the bigger planet as the 'physical' size of the smaller one - the texture would consist of 3-4 pixels most as ccp doesn't got it dynamically yet Crying or Very sad

A dirty fix would be varying TF/MW usage of links per km for the different planet sizes I guess. I wouldn't like it.

Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.04.21 01:16:00 - [98]
 

We have weapon grouping on ships, can we get extractor grouping going so that we can have multiple extractors all managed together on the same ressource.

It will make management easier and have less impact on the database, while remaining scalable so that we can add/remove extractors to get the right balance of input materials.

menacemyth
Minmatar
Onyx Brotherhood
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2010.04.21 02:01:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: menacemyth on 21/04/2010 02:01:26
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: menacemyth
3) although I understand the need to make players move items from planet to planet, considering the complexity involved in moving up the tier chain of production I would prefer some mechanism for routing between planets for lower tier items. like only products from advanced processors and high-tech factories must be manually moved.

If one peep can do all alone, cause you give him to many means to do so.. what do you think happens? Also, what do you think the 2nd 'M' in MMORPG stays for?
If ccp really introduces higher tier PCCs with more CPU/PG that should be more than enough.

Originally by: menacemyth
4) Given how spread out resources are on planet, and how much they move over time, requiring that everything be moved to the command center is impossible to maintain. Would be easier to allow launches from space ports so two resources can be mined from diffeent sides of the planet and launched. This is espically true right now since command centers cannot be moved or deleted atm. Another alternative would be to allow lower power/cpu usage routes to be created. I'm on a very nice planet and I still can't possibly see needing 10k m3/hr moved between pins.

Same answer as above.. CCP doesn't seem to want one lone guy to do all the chains possible without him to 'work' hard.


I'm not saying be able to mine all the resources at once. As long as the command center can move, then you can change resources. Since currently you cannot move it, your too limited on what you can do in the future. Check your ego bud.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.21 03:28:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 21/04/2010 03:31:34

Originally by: menacemyth
I'm not saying be able to mine all the resources at once. As long as the command center can move, then you can change resources. Since currently you cannot move it, your too limited on what you can do in the future. Check your ego bud.

Can you change the moon fast for getting that other resource you desperately need?
Nope..
You got to plan ahead.
So either buy the pre-products from others and ship it to your processors or live with underperforming, but workable infrastructure on your one planet.
Then there naturally is the possibility to utilize several planets with friends/alts/corpmates/alliancemates to get a more streamlined/optimized production chain running.
CCP doesn't want you to be able to run this thing efficiently all by yourself.
That's not my ego talking.

To answer your question - I'm 99.9% certain we'll be able to relocate the PCC somehow after deployment/rethinking, in a similar way we can relocate POS now, cause the number of PCCs is skillbound.
See here: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=752

menacemyth
Minmatar
Onyx Brotherhood
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2010.04.21 03:45:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 21/04/2010 03:31:34

Can you change the moon fast for getting that other resource you desperately need?
Nope..
You got to plan ahead.
So either buy the pre-products from others and ship it to your processors or live with underperforming, but workable infrastructure on your one planet.
Then there naturally is the possibility to utilize several planets with friends/alts/corpmates/alliancemates to get a more streamlined/optimized production chain running.
CCP doesn't want you to be able to run this thing efficiently all by yourself.
That's not my ego talking.

To answer your question - I'm 99.9% certain we'll be able to relocate the PCC somehow after deployment/rethinking, in a similar way we can relocate POS now, cause the number of PCCs is skillbound.
See here: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=752


I think your missing the point I made. On some planets the resources move, others like gas planets, they stay relatively fixed in rings. Likewise some planets are large others small. Originally I was proposing to either make PCC's movable or make it possible to launch directly from a spaceport. So if I want to extract a resource on the other side of planet I must drop the extracters, processor and a spaceport and i can move it off planet like that. Doesn't seem too much to ask given is's possible with today's technology even.

Colonel Vatutin
Caldari
Often AFK
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.04.21 10:03:00 - [102]
 

Question time:

In regards to SOV requirement for PI in null-sec, what specific level of sov is required in order to run PI to its fullest potential? Would Lv 4-5 be required, or can u still exploit the system and set up everthing while having sov at 3?


stumpy999999
Posted - 2010.04.21 10:07:00 - [103]
 

From a quick look see I seem to have a slightly different experience to others.

I can deploy the command centres on differnt worlds and build basic industry. I loathe the interface with the submit button but thats just taste.

When I find deposits most of them are below 6000 units per extractor. So I can't make a single unit without resurvey or multiple extractors.

I run out of powergrid well before I can do anything like the 8 extractors mentioned. I appreciate that the routes cost resources but it's not really clear on capacity. I can have 50% powergrid but can't deploy a single extractor due to where it is going.

So it looks like I need to set up something costing me game time, then touch every single extractor, every day, and have the opportunity to produce 5 blocks of something.

I appreciate the 10 or so planets I have looked at may be poor on resource and that I may not be the most efficient, but is the yield meant to be so low?

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
Posted - 2010.04.21 11:05:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 21/04/2010 11:06:20
Originally by: stumpy999999
From a quick look see I seem to have a slightly different experience to others.

I can deploy the command centres on differnt worlds and build basic industry. I loathe the interface with the submit button but thats just taste.

When I find deposits most of them are below 6000 units per extractor. So I can't make a single unit without resurvey or multiple extractors.

I run out of powergrid well before I can do anything like the 8 extractors mentioned. I appreciate that the routes cost resources but it's not really clear on capacity. I can have 50% powergrid but can't deploy a single extractor due to where it is going.

So it looks like I need to set up something costing me game time, then touch every single extractor, every day, and have the opportunity to produce 5 blocks of something.

I appreciate the 10 or so planets I have looked at may be poor on resource and that I may not be the most efficient, but is the yield meant to be so low?


Yea the difference between the low net yield/high extraction time and high net yield/low extraction time, needs to be much larger. We should have the option of having our planets run for several days unattended at the expense of a quick yield. This would allow the resources to flow into the market smoothly, yet allows those who get into PI in a big way to get their resources quick.

At present you can select deposits for a few hrs with low net yeild and high net yeild ones that last maybe 15 hrs. I have a RL, the latter needs to be more like several days minimum to allow folks to wander off elsewhere in eve without having to fly umpteen jumps every few hrs. Not to mention the potential lag issues with having command centre spam all over eve that isnt doing anything because people cant be arsed to go and manage it.

Ardornisoria
Posted - 2010.04.21 12:14:00 - [105]
 

The biggest issue for me (other than the submit button) is that it takes about 5 minutes from basic industry pins getting enough resources to them starting to manufacture is this just me?
And can we please have the submit button so its moveable if we have to have it at all?
It seems strange that in a world where we only have to undock to consent to combat that we have to check we put the buildings in the right place.

Colonel Vatutin
Caldari
Often AFK
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.04.21 13:08:00 - [106]
 

Sry to interrupt the flow - anyone wanna answer my question about SOV few reply back?

Di Mulle
Posted - 2010.04.21 13:42:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Colonel Vatutin
Sry to interrupt the flow - anyone wanna answer my question about SOV few reply back?


Nobody knows yet.

No info except some vague notes in previous devblog, IIRC.

Mr Pikey
Caldari
Posted - 2010.04.21 13:58:00 - [108]
 

Some observations from this morning while I had nothing better to do lol.
Sorry about the ‘Wall of Text’.

My set up is 2 sets of 4 Extractors feeding into 2 Storage Units and from the Storage Units into Processor Units. OK so far?
The general set up was to produce Coolant from inputs of Water and Electrolytes (made from resources of Aqueous Liquids and Ionic Solutions).

I did a rescan of resources this morning as the extractors were stopped and set my first set of extractors to produce 10 units each of Ionic Solutions (round numbers to make life easy). Each Extractor was linked and routed together with the others into a single Storage Unit; the Storage Unit was then linked and routed to the processor unit to convert it into Electrolytes.

At the end of each extractor cycle I checked the storage of each unit in the chain so far and observed the following;

Each Extractor cycle ended with the units produced being sent direct to the storage in the Processor Unit (via the Storage Unit, but they did not appear in the unit on the way), where they remained until the Processor Unit had stored sufficient products to run 1 run of its processing scheme.

When the Processor unit had completed 1 run it passed the output via a second Storage Unit direct to the second stage Processor where it remained until this second stage processor has received all its required input when it would complete 1 run and output the required finished product (Coolant).

Other than using it as an amalgamation unit I have reservations on the usefulness of the ‘Storage Unit’ as they do not seem to ‘buffer’ the output of the Extractors in any way. I was expecting the unit to store the extracted resource until such time as the Processor required it but it only seems to do this if the Processor storage is full while awaiting a second product to arrive or the Processor goes off-line for some reason.

The amounts stored in a storage space do not update in ‘Real Time’ you have to close and open the window again for the display to update.

Extracting 6000 units of Ionic Solutions to produce 20 units of Electrolytes running 4 extractors producing 10 units each per 60 seconds takes 2.5 hours, or 5 hours to produce the 40 units required for the next stage.

The end product is 5 units of Coolant or 1 unit of Coolant per hour, as most inputs for the next stage require 10 units as their inputs it would require 10 hours to produce the next stage input to make say ‘Supercomputers’. And that is but one small link in the chain, you need 2 more production chains to fill the other 2 ‘slots’ to finally get your ‘Supercomputers’.

Thats it, brain now dead, time for tea Very Happy.

Seamus Donohue
Gallente
Posted - 2010.04.21 14:50:00 - [109]
 

I posted the following in the V2 thread, not realizing that a V3 thread existed:

Originally by: Seamus Donohue
Edited by: Seamus Donohue on 19/04/2010 17:42:25
Some issues I noticed:

1) There is no upgrade option for the Planetary Command Center, once deployed. It would be nice to be able to increase the powergrid and CPU, I'm guessing this will be implemented later.

2) To get an extractor to start work, the user currently needs to click the extractor, click Survey for Deposits, click SURVEY FOR DEPOSITS (again), click an entry, then click SELECT. To route materials from that same extractor, the user currently needs to click Products, click the entry, memorize the number on the entry, click CREATE ROUTE, double-click the destination node, type in the memorized number, and press Enter.

Change this to: click the extractor, click Survey for Deposits (this should immediately bring up the list, if the extractor isn't already working on a deposit), then double-click an entry (this should cause the game to ask "Where do you want us to route the materials we're extracting?"), then double-click the destination. 11 steps become 4 steps. Unless the extractor has internal storage that you're not showing us, then the extractor will NOT be extracting materials without routing it somewhere, so we may as well extract and route in the same command. Also, for an extractor, the game should assume that the entire output of the extractor is being routed.

3) When an extractor has finished work and is asked to survey for deposits again, an error message appears saying the foreman is still working on the current deposit. I assume this is an error.

4) For extractors to have optimal output, it seems that the player's attention is required every 5 or 6 hours, or else the extractors sit there and do nothing. Speaking in general: if you intend for this level of micromanagement to be required, then the time-money equivalence needs to be observed; time is money, after all. The ISK made by a player who spends time micromanaging planetary interaction should be comparable to the ISK made by players who instead spend their time running missions or mining. For example, if a player needs to spend 15 minutes every 6 hours to get a planet to make 500,000 ISK over those six hours, then the player is better off running a pair of Level 4 courier missions in those 15 minutes.

Speaking specifically, there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to have an extractor sit idle (unless high-concentration areas move around?), so it should automatically start extracting the next deposit available. Or, at least, there should be an option to tell an extractor to automatically go for the next deposit.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.04.21 15:25:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: van Ice
Frankly, I expect the prices of these goods to skyrocket. Because the current hassle level and relatively low production rates will not sustain the number of towers that exist.

This is a micro management nightmare, and boring as hell.

If this is the only source of the NPC goods, there will be problems. If it isn't, then the market prices won't stabilize.

/me waits for the macro PI players... Rolling Eyes


Bots will take care of it. This expansion is the rise of machines. Clearly.

Ombey
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.04.21 16:13:00 - [111]
 

I am new to this PI malarkey but quite enjoying it. Only problem is, my factories aren't building. I have extractors >> storage >> processor route, with links and the raw material is arriving at the factory, the correct schematic is chosen, but they just aren't building- Screenie. Am I being an idiot, missed something, or a bug of sorts?

Thanks Smile

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.21 16:46:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Ombey
I am new to this PI malarkey but quite enjoying it. Only problem is, my factories aren't building. I have extractors >> storage >> processor route, with links and the raw material is arriving at the factory, the correct schematic is chosen, but they just aren't building- Screenie. Am I being an idiot, missed something, or a bug of sorts?

Thanks Smile

Ombey.. are you used to POS and cycling of reactions there?
We got the same here... the processors cycle every x minutes after you did submit the schematics. If the storage has filled up to the needed level in between, it will none the less start at the cycling-point.
It might have already started.. just check.

Rentai Korne
Posted - 2010.04.21 17:24:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Rentai Korne on 21/04/2010 17:24:33
After watching the EVE Fanfest PI presentation and seeing what's currently on SiSi I was somewhat disappointed. For those who don't know here's the video from FanFest: Link

So the goals they declared:


  • - Low barrier of entry

  • I think they got this at least, however the UI is not intuitive (as always)

  • - Maximize human interaction

  • As one is only able to put one PCC on a planet they got this - but only if there's any easy way to interact with other colonies on the planet. It would be great if you could establish a connection (using links?) directly to other players

  • - It's a bit like gardening

  • IMHO too much gardening at the moment - the extractors etc. should run for days if not weeks before another survey is needed. Having to deal with this basic stuff very few hours is just too much

  • - Has the same feel as SimCity or Civilization

  • Ummm.. not at all atm


They also talked about the feel of PI - here's my main concern, atm there's nothing at all visible of that:


  • Dark

  • Don't know where the dark feel should be

  • Build industry, academia and infrastructure

  • Atm we have industry and links (so this is some kind of abstracted infrastructure?)

  • Keep the masses subdued with holoreels

  • What masses? The 'colonies' we have are only pins and links - the only thing that reminds us that there are people working is coming from some error messages...

  • Employ unwilling miinng crews on venus like planets

  • What?

  • It's less about units or installations and more about policies, trade agreements and diplomacy by other means

  • It's more about installations and installations only at the moment.


So from the feel they talked about during FanFest nothing made it into the current SiSi version. Whats also missing is districts (they talked about them too) polluting the planet and basically almost anything that would have made it cool (for me). I can only hope that at least something is improved until release and that the PI team really brings this stuff in afterwards ...


Ombey
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:02:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer

Ombey.. are you used to POS and cycling of reactions there?
We got the same here... the processors cycle every x minutes after you did submit the schematics. If the storage has filled up to the needed level in between, it will none the less start at the cycling-point.
It might have already started.. just check.


Ah, that was it, many thanks- wasn't used to POS reactions, so wasn't aware! Cheers for that :)

Areale
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:26:00 - [115]
 

Perhaps I missed it, but is there a post on planetary interaction?
Reason I ask is I am still unable to figure out how to collect the materials I launch from the planet surface. I go to the planetary link, but nothing shows up, but when looking in my journal it shows it is ready and has a re-entry countdown of 4+ days.

So what am I missing?

Areale

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:29:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Mr Pikey
Some observations from this morning while I had nothing better to do lol.
Sorry about the ‘Wall of Text’.

My set up is 2 sets of 4 Extractors feeding into 2 Storage Units and from the Storage Units into Processor Units. OK so far?
The general set up was to produce Coolant from inputs of Water and Electrolytes (made from resources of Aqueous Liquids and Ionic Solutions).

I did a rescan of resources this morning as the extractors were stopped and set my first set of extractors to produce 10 units each of Ionic Solutions (round numbers to make life easy).


The extractor uses up the full cycle amount. So if you only deliver 10 of the 59 units available each cycle, you lose 49 units into the ether.

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
Posted - 2010.04.21 18:34:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Areale
Perhaps I missed it, but is there a post on planetary interaction?
Reason I ask is I am still unable to figure out how to collect the materials I launch from the planet surface. I go to the planetary link, but nothing shows up, but when looking in my journal it shows it is ready and has a re-entry countdown of 4+ days.

So what am I missing?

Areale


right click journal entry > warp to....

Areale
Posted - 2010.04.21 20:15:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Celeste Coeval
right click journal entry > warp to....


Thank you, You rock!

supercombatguy33
Posted - 2010.04.21 21:20:00 - [119]
 

One of the 'convenience' things i would like to see is a more convienient way to route things.

Right now, for links, you can either: click on the structure, go to the links tab, click on "create link", then click on the structure you wish to link to. Or you can right click the structure, pick "create link" in the context menu, and click on the new structure.

Clearly, the right click menu one is easier and more convenient. I believe the same thing should exist for creating routes.

Right now, you have to:
click on a structure
click on the "products" tab
click on the product you wish to route
click "create route"
double-click on the structure you wish to route to
type in a number
click ok

That's 7 actions, and the "type in a number" action is annoying because you have to keep track of what the structure is producing.

If you have 9 extractors and 2 basic industry structures (my most common setup so far), that's a total of 77 actions before even considering surveying for deposits, setting up links, changing production types, etc.

The current system is good because it allows for fine-grained control of where products are sent, but you have to consider the most common use case, which is "route everything this structure produces to one other place".

For that use case, it would be far more convenient if we could right click a structure, select "create route" in the right click menu, and create the route the same way we create a link. When it comes time to select how much to route, the total number of unrouted resources should be autofilled into the box.

So the new list of things you'd have to do for the most common use case would be:
right click structure
select create route
click new structure
click ok

which is clearly more convenient

menacemyth
Minmatar
Onyx Brotherhood
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2010.04.21 22:04:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: menacemyth on 21/04/2010 22:06:52
one thing i think that requires clarification:

In order to maximize my through-put, i've routed multiple extractors through a silo to a factory. while creating a route to the factory it asks me how much to route. thinking routes move items per minute i choose 200 reactive gas. When i look at the route it displays 8m3/hr like it's only moving 200 units per hour, but clearly the reactor is receiving them per second. question is what is the cycle time for silos?

Think this is worth looking at. when selecting quantities it should tell me how much to move every (minute/extractor, minute/silo, 30minutes/basic processor etc...)


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