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Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.04.12 23:59:00 - [151]

Edited by: Kerfira on 13/04/2010 00:00:08
No problem with most of it, but destroying ships parked in deep safes is probably a bit over the top....

Just move them to a random spot in the solar system...

IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:08:00 - [152]

Feedback for CCP:

On its own, a very bad idea as many have said already, I will try to focus on reminding you the whys you seems to have forgotten, rather than repeat what others have already pointed out such as lag on jump in:

  • EVE so far has been a unique game, where players are not equals: When I started out, I missed on a lot of things the 2003 players didnt miss (such as the 10 Ogres Thorax, highly skilled Eos with 7 blasters+5 ogres etc) - I accepted that and dealt with it - why suddenly this is WOW or some hello kitty? let the new players work hard on discovering new things, while hearing about what the old players have they don't (in this case deep safes etc)

  • EVE happens in space, which is boundless - which means there is NO SENSE whatsoever, for space to be sandboxed into abs(X-Star)+10AU LOL... wtf? are we in Need for Speed with closed circuit? with no exploration?

  • CCP has stated explicitly, that should you want a break, you can always take one and not fear, as all your assets would still be there when you come back! how can you say this and look into the eyes of a Titan pilots who took a break from EVE?! This would be a slippery road, once you start walking it, there is no way back (for us too, we simply wouldn't trust you anymore.. probably even be CCP customers).

  • Even if eventually you still think this ability needs to be removed - your approach is all wrong and too harsh for the above reasons... let the ones who have them, retain the bookmarks - its the way of EVE, the old players always had advantages new players will never have. If you change this concept, THEN REMOVE T2 BPOS! remove the unique ships! make EVE a damn politically correct (TM) sandbox for the self righteous activists or whatever... just don't delude yourself thinking this is for the better change, because it isn't (I am quite sure the old players have MORE accounts together, than the new ones...) so do your thinking again.

We understand not every dev is server side programming expert, but certainly there are better and more important things for you to work on, than mess with a delicately balanced, sensitive game mechanics?
IT WORKS, everyone uses it, its not breaking the game, its part of it now.

in conclusion:

Sunbird Huy
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:19:00 - [153]

Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 13/04/2010 00:21:32
Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 13/04/2010 00:20:06
1. LOL.
2. More LOL + facepalms...
3. An extract from the DEV chat channel:

DEV a: Guys, we still haven't fixed 0.0 lag...we've made it worse...
DEV b: We need to do something to divert the attention from this matter...
DEV c: Players/Customers(read: suckers) have found ways to reduce our fecktardedness, they call
it Poseidon, and it seems to allow for 0.0 battles to happen, with at least a chance for
players to load grid before they die...
DEV a: Wow, good stuff...They actually go around our feck-ups, now we can do something about
DEV c: Ok, so we have an agreement. We're gonna nerf what they did, grief all the players that
are AFK from the game, and do nothing about the matters we should dealing with...

4. I have a question : is there a way for us customers to get a few of you mor0ns fired, so the
others get a jolt and do something about issues we have at hand.

None of this really affects me - not a cap pilot, I try to stay out of mass blobbing and I sure as hell don't spend entire nights making those Poseidon spots. But the point is, someone in your office really should re-assert your policy and attitude towards customers.


Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:20:00 - [154]

Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: Vuk Lau
CCP Lemur and CCP Greyscale when is the last time time any of you played in 0.0 a bit?

I am seriously concerned about sanity of you guys, if you spent even a 10 minutes of CCP resources on this while letting literaly dozens of other more urgent stuff waiting to get fixed.

Not to mention the complete lack of logic behind this change with current state of your game, but I cant wait to see the rightfull tears of the guys who are on 1+ month break for the game, or just dont give a feck for horrible devblogs like this one, and figure after new patch, they lost their ships and stuff cause of this "CCP Nozh style" change.

Seriously get a clue and stop playing with your customers.

listen to this man for once

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Vuk is right.

Your game is broken and the only way to avoid crap like the PL mass titan death is to use deepsafes.

Trying to kill Vuk and friends when they lit 4 2000 AU safes in P2 was hard, and we died instead, but that was a much better option than annihilating the competition thanks to a "CCP feature". There should be benefits for creativity and experience, Eve should be massively unfair for new players, this nerf is an absurd response to your own horrible development issues.

Ulair Memmet
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:31:00 - [155]

The end of an era. Crying or Very sad

Those deepsafes really gave you a feeling of being in space. Needing like 5-10 minutes to reach such a spot with a capital ship while watching the solar system go further and further away was very nice to watch.

All this stargate-travelling is so unimpressive. I wish there was a possibility to actually "warp" from one system to another. Though we'd need a new shipclass for that as even very close systems are over a lightyear away from each other.
It'd take a covops with unlimited capacitor about 1 hour and 18 minutes to warp 1 light year (As 1LY is about 63240AU if i'm not wrong).

I agree that from a gameplay perspective those bookmarks need to go. I personally never used them to gain any advantage over an opponent. But i'll miss them nonetheless.

Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:32:00 - [156]

why am i subbed to this game again?

IsoMetricanTaliac 2
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:32:00 - [157]

Edited by: IsoMetricanTaliac 2 on 13/04/2010 00:37:37
With the logic they are using <Old players have them & new ones don't, basically> it has to be asked when the same thing is going to happen to the T2 BPO's because they are the very same, where anyone that wasn't playing when they were around has little chance to take advantage of them <unless you have heaps of ISK & buy one, then again you could do the same with deep safe BM's couldn't you?>

The sad thing about all this is the lag probably won't get fixed, the jumping in bugs probably won't get fixed, & then CCP will scratch their heads & wonder why people are deciding to move on to more well thought out games by developers that have a clue.

Very basically I can't help but wonder if there has been a change in the person that keeps control of where EVE is heading, because it seems to now be on a heading which is going to take it along the road of self destruction. It is a shame that a game that had so much promise has slowly been stuffed up by a development team that seem to have no real care for the older players or the people that are trying to play the game outside of sitting in Highsec whinging about everything.

Where EVE goes after this coming expansion is going to be interesting, then again I guess CCP always has the other things they are doing to fall back on. that way they can do the same to those games & player base.

Also I don't have or use any of those deep safe's, but I know just how important they have been lately to keep the game playable sort of. I know I am not going to be interested in paying to play to always end up being stuffed over when taking part in fleet fights & I think there are going to be a lot of others that will feel the very same...

Posted - 2010.04.13 00:34:00 - [158]

All we want to know is:


Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:38:00 - [159]

10 au from a planet is NOT a deep safe by any means, range needs to be at minimum 20 au. anything within dscan range is by definition not a deep safe

also. nuking people who are away from the game and logged at a deep safe is wrong. someone who logged their supercap in a deep safe and comes back in 3 months to only have it distroyed is not going to be a happy camper, and it is just wrong anyways. id doubt they would renew again after hearing why, would you?

best thing to do is probably just leave them there, only the ships logged off with people in them. nuke everything else. with the inability to warp to them or bookmark them the deep safe will effectively be useless as no one would warp to them and if they warped they could never get back

if there is an issue with invulnerable carriers assigning fighters or something, make all caps warp within 1 au random location of the sun or something on login, or direct to the sun.

i think deep SS nerf is warranted, but this is wayyyyyy to draconian and hurts honest players unnecessarily

Posted - 2010.04.13 00:39:00 - [160]

Originally by: x Annelid
Let me get this right, you will no longer be able to 'Warp to' and object outside of 10au?

So if I warp to 9.9au and mwd to 11au, I now am in a super safe spot and cannot be probed out, as no one can 'warp to' the scan result?

Who needs cloaks when mechanics are designed this well!!

why not drop a TCU while you are at it :)

Mya ElleTerego
The Hull Miners Union
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:43:00 - [161]

I think its pretty funny tbh, but if you guys are going to do this, at least nerf stealth bombers bombs. Otherwise we are going to just have to melt titans into motherships and go back to useing gates for all fighting. A couple hyperspatial rigs and 2-3 bomber squads could effecively kill an entire enemy fleet before they load easily with this range restriction. Otherwise I am fine with the idea and look forward for it to being possible for defense fleet to at least take charge in a overwhelming odds fight.

Na'li Cyntanis
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:46:00 - [162]

Edited by: Na''li Cyntanis on 13/04/2010 00:47:43
Edited by: Na''li Cyntanis on 13/04/2010 00:45:59

Why not do away with bookmarks altogether and implement a system that allows you to pick a spot to warp to similar how you control scanning probes.

Combined with a limit of 500 AU from the central star as well as a major boost to deep scanning probes this would be pretty cool.

Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:50:00 - [163]

Edited by: Romale on 13/04/2010 00:50:47
WTG CCP, your fixing a problem that nobody cares about right now and doing it in a way the ******ed, blowing up peoples ships. How about, just making it so you can't warp anything to it, and the bookmark no longer works instead of blowing up people who haven't logging in or read your blog ships.

I got news for you. People spending time on this instead of making it so someone can jump into someon else and actually shoot them instead of just dieing makes people a little angry.

Addison Tariel
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:50:00 - [164]

What idiot came up with this idea? Does anyone want this change?

Origin of Sanshaa
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:53:00 - [165]

I don't even fight in 0.0, have never needed / used a deep safe, and really have no business being bothered by it. If / when this goes live, I won't be affected in the slightest.That said, this nerf really makes me upset. It's indicative of something going on at CCP that I don't like, and it isn't limited to this single change.

What you have been doing lately, CCP, is eroding the sandbox. Here, in case you forgot:
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
ok I'll try to give some use cases since Greyscale asked for them - but quite honestly I feel you shouldnt just be looking at those. It's like asking "what do people do in a sandbox?" and then giving them the tools to do ONLY that. Instead, you should just give them plenty of tools and let them figure out how to use for themselves. If you design the tools properly it doesnt have to become more difficult to use/understand.
..which if I recall properly, you thought made a pretty good point. As a TL;DR, you've moved away from "putting it out there", i.e. making unstructured content and letting players do as they wish, to "Okay, THIS is how you play." It's not just this nerf, it's not just the reduction of standings granularity. It's not that you are "encouraging" NPC players to leave with a 10% tax (can of worms right there). What is the issue is that you're constricting the walls of the sandbox. At some point, you'll lose credibility and the whole free-form gimmick will be laughable.

You've so far given no reason as to why you are implementing this change. Some background would have been appreciated; it's more than understandable that people would take this as an offence on their gameplay, because so far you have given no reason for it. As it stands, it's apparently an integral part of 0.0 warfare today since fleet fights have been borked. Without a good reason as to why, you come across as heavy-handed, unreasonable, and frankly it's a major kick to the nads to subscribers who rely on this "exploit" to play.

I don't appreciate the suddenness, either. There wasn't any community discussion, no hint that this was coming. Just a small dev blog, almost an "Oh, by the way..." kind of thing. Hell, you didn't even pretend to involve the players, and 6 pages of replies with nary a Dev response adds to that image.

CCP, you need to be more open and frank with the players, and more importantly, you need to stay true to Eve's ideals. If you expect to keep players happy with sudden, unilateral assaults on the so-called "sandbox", you have another thing coming.

Busta Rock
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:07:00 - [166]

Originally by: Ulair Memmet
The end of an era. Crying or Very sad

Those deepsafes really gave you a feeling of being in space. Needing like 5-10 minutes to reach such a spot with a capital ship while watching the solar system go further and further away was very nice to watch.

agreed to infinity. I've been around long enough to see that every time ccp 'expands' eve,they manage to shrink it just as much if not more. let me count the ways:

  • the mythology of the game itself has canonized the fact that gates MUST AND CAN ONLY operate in binary star systems, yet we cannot travel via warp to those stellar companions (out past 1000au), or exploit what might be there. Hell... WE DONT EVEN HAVE PROPER ASTEROID/KUIPER BELTS, OR OORT CLOUDS!!!

  • WE ARE NOT ALLOWED to warp to the countless single-star systems that lie beyond the reach of the gate network.

  • capital ships may ONLY jump to a beacon created by another ship that had to travel the gate network - something I have had an issue with for a long time (for high precision jumps, a cyno makes sense, but a jump capable ship should be able to jump based solely on it's own sensor fixes with much reduced accuracy).

  • Speed Nerf. WTF??? (don't tell me it was the best way. there were other solutions that you ignored)

All this stargate-travelling is so unimpressive. I wish there was a possibility to actually "warp" from one system to another. Though we'd need a new shipclass for that as even very close systems are over a lightyear away from each other.
It'd take a covops with unlimited capacitor about 1 hour and 18 minutes to warp 1 light year (As 1LY is about 63240AU if i'm not wrong).

you know something, I would LOVE to have the option to warp to a system with no gates, even IF IT DID take hours or days to do so! NEW ORIGINAL CONTENT. NO LOCAL. NO SAFETY NET. (yeah, I know the wormholes bring some of this to eve, but W-space is STILL highly limited - in many ways even more so than the normal systems.)

space is supposed to be BIG, BEAUTIFUL, WONDROUS and most of all DANGEROUS! (yeah... I said it... eve is supposed to be a BBW with DDD's lol)

Ten Bulls
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:12:00 - [167]

'This creates a division between older "haves" and newer "have-nots": as a new player coming into the game, the only way you'd be able to reach points outside the system proper would be to acquire a bookmark from an older player.' CCP Lemur

If CCP's justification for this change is based on this fairness to new players, then it is contradictory. Its a similar scenario to T2 BPO's,

T2 BPOs create a division between older "haves" and newer "have-nots": as a new player coming into the game, the only way you'd be able to get T2 BPO's would be to acquire them from an older player.

Care to clarify CCP's position on T2 BPO's ?

Hazel Starr
Krypteia Brotherhood
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:22:00 - [168]

The question I have is simply why?

What issue is there with deep safes?

Why are you devoting your limited programming time
to eliminating a non-problem (in such an antagonistic way)
when you have so many real issues on your table,

-- Haze

Recycled Heroes
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:30:00 - [169]

registering my dislike of this change, both to the removal of Poseidon and the deletion of "deep" safes.

While I could see some justification for removing locations far outside of deep space probe range the 10 AU bounds to the system seems excessively small (1/6th of the max range of the smallest combat probes? really?)

The removal of Poseidon also seems unfortunate. Unlike other exploits that circumvent obvious restrictions on gameplay (MWDing between deadspace accel gates to bypass hull restrictions) Deepsafes within a couple hundred AU of the system bounds don't offer any more tactical advantage than on grid tactical bookmarks. It gives an advantage to those who are prepared ahead of time, but isn't an "i win" tactic.

As for the 'division between older "haves" and newer "have-nots"', that is laughably absurd. HTFU CCP, seriouslyRolling Eyes. Where's my handout to bring me (a mere '07 player) up to parity w/ the advantage that all those ebil '03 players have.... oh wait... I don't need oneYARRRR!!

Alar Tangor
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:39:00 - [170]

The argument about destinction between "have"s and "have-not"s is especially ******ed in face of the fact that the people actively using those BMs (apart from storing stuff which in no way has an impact on gameplay of the have nots), i.e. the people lighting cynos for fleets on deepsaves are used on alliance scale opperations which in turn benefit the have nots as they do not get their ships blown to bits due to their grid not loading... in return if i was a fleetcommander and wanted my forward scout (a hypothetical player who started playing late 2008, can use covops and such) to light a cyno for my fleet i would sure as hell provide him with a copy of said BM, so again there is no issue (as well as the fact that everyone warping to said cyno or being bridged/jumped there can bm it to their liking...

Anela Cistine
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:40:00 - [171]

Originally by: teji
Edited by: teji on 12/04/2010 21:44:29
Aww, I wanted to be ELITE like those who have T2 BPOs. Selling deep safes that I got for free to those who didn't subscribe to eve at the time.

Dear CCP,

Please convert all T2 BPOs to BPCs. Their existence is unfair to newer players who were not around at the time of the T2 lotteries and never had a chance to win one. This change will only affect a small fraction of the player base. Thanks.

Orb Lati
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:42:00 - [172]

Sorry to say, but the destruction of all objects outside of the range of your new limit to space seems a bit excessive when you could use the same algorithm to simply change the coordinates of all objects (and bms) and shift them back within limits.

While the decision to remove the current exploit for creating DS bookmarks is good, perhaps instead of removing all possibility of having difficult spots to find or travel to, provide us with an in game ability to create them.

An example would be as a function of the the Deep Space scanner Probe DDSP with its limit of 256AU (increased range to 512Au if needed?) you can generate a random BM to make scanning difficult and provide much needed travel time for large fleet incursion into a hostile system. Limit safe spots to a DSSP range from a sun?

While i agree all spots should be able to be scanned we currently need the ability to use and create them if we want to see more large scale capital / subcap combat with the current state of the servers.

Ysp Amai
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:42:00 - [173]

Now I have been generally okay with a lot of the changes that CCP has worked on over the years. Even the nano nerf was a long time coming. But this change makes little to no sence. The argument for the change is frankly very weak. There is no reason that any person desiring a deep safe spot can not make one. So it destroys the argument that its a situation of people gaining an unfair advatage. As creating them is avallible to all players in the game.

As for their use? Simply put they have been used almost exclusively for one purpose. They allow an attacking force to enter a system in relitive safety and be able to load grid. Without this, lag would dictate that anyone who manages to jam a system with their forces first can hold the field in a fight no matter what the enemy numbers.

Yes I know that CCP has been working on reducing lag. But there is one thing that no member of CCP can be foolish enough to do. And that is claim that they have fixed the lag and it will never show up again. With that fact in ones mind, one would need to have a way of countering the lag so large fleet fights can actually take place.

I understand that it is nearly impossible for a prober pilot to find the deep safe due to the expanse of space they are looking at. However, might you consider letting probes to a huge scan radius. When you do that outside of the system, the probe is looking for a collection of ships and they are likely to be all in one area. This means the chance of hitting a signature right off the bat is going to be very high. Then consider this. Most of the Deep Safe Spots I have seen have been used for remote cynoing. I can warp to that cyno at any time. If I'm in a cloaking ship this means I have the enemies deep safe.

Deep Safes have their tactical advantage. But like any good game mechanic they are not totally invulnerable. Yes you can use a deep safe for cov-ops cyno. but they are undetectable anyway unless you are right on top of them. And unless you are looking for a ship to drop one in a specific system, it is highly unlikely that you are going to spot it in time to get a warp in.

All in all this nerf is one of the most ill advised changes to the game I have ever seen. The small bonus it gives to everyone is easily outweighed by garenteing that fleets of 200 can now successfully system jam and be nearly completely immune to opposition. I strongly suggest that this idea be reconsidered.

Caladain Barton
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:43:00 - [174]

Edited by: Caladain Barton on 13/04/2010 01:43:02
See that figure in the distance being beaten to death CCP?

That's fleet war. You know..the stuff that makes headlines and you like to harp on. Wave goodbye to it CCP.

I'm not joking..There is no way to load grid now if the enemy is in system. We're not talking about being "safe"..we're talking about not blackscreening.

Oh..and the method on how to make "Deep Safes" is available to anyone who can fly a frigate..only, really, it's just FC's, Scouts, and Supercap pilots who need them. Because if you can't get in can't fight. No fights, no news. No news, players log off.

Once again..the Ebil

Stop breaking your own game.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:48:00 - [175]

Dear CCP,

Having just read your blog I do have some questions.

1) What is the point of my Deep Space Probes now? I had trained up to Astrometrics V in order to use those. Then you nerfed them. But at least they still had the ability to scan down a deep safe. At least that's what you said when you were nerfing DSPs. Not that I'd ever have the need to scan 128au, but I had the ability just in case. But now there is no need to scan out that far. My combat probes easily cover 10au, in fact they go out to 32au. And they are of equivalent strength. Soooo... what good are my DSPs? What good is my Astro V that I trained up for? Are my skill points wasted now due to your retroactive decision?

2) Since max bookmark range is now 10au, will you be pulling all missions to within directional scan range now?

Lobster Man
Pigs On Teh Wing
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:49:00 - [176]

Edited by: Lobster Man on 13/04/2010 01:49:42
While I do agree that there may be some issues with deep safes, I think that the method for "fixing" these presented in this devblog is atrocious.

I do not think that you should delete currently existing spots, nor should you destroy assets parked there already. If anything stop them from being created, and make it possible to scan out people who are using them (and maybe fix cloaks too), but please, please, please, please do not just say LOL and PUSH DELETE BUTTAN Confused

World of EVEcraft
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:51:00 - [177]

Since this doesn't have a direct impact on me, a highsec hugging carebear, I would normally not care or even bother to comment. However, since I've been playing on and off for a few years now, I have to say that this is only more of the same CCP that I don't like.

This is not a sandbox. There is little to no transparency between the dev community and the player population. Features are being added rather than bugs being fixed.

In the end though, I'm all for the current player community leaving en masse. There are too many people in the game universe competing with one another and a population implosion would be rather nice. I can't imagine it won't happen anyway since there seem to be a lot of angry people who haven't yet left because, like it or not, there are no other decent internet spaceships games out there worth playing. Maybe that'll change and things will get quiet around here.

In the meantime, keep up the good work upsetting your community and cheers to whoever leaves to play "like EVE but better" in a few years. Clear out this miserable universe for me.

Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.04.13 01:57:00 - [178]

I have one thing to say. T2 BPOs

If you are going to give us this stuff about older vs. newer players than at least be consistent about it.

Crystal Starbreeze
Posted - 2010.04.13 02:07:00 - [179]

I use bookmarks that are 1000 AU out there; additionally I use deepspace probes and tested with a 4x2x1 256au grid pattern and was able to successfully (with an hour of work) probe out stuff that people hid 1000 AUs out in a random direction out there.

This means all the skills I put into deep space probes (which are awesome in that they are 256AU and most people never use) has been ruined.

I appreciate the have and have-not's but bookmarks that CAN be scanned out with current mechanics and nerfing them to protect against the have and have-not's; I would like to bring up the T2 BPO lottery.

If there EVER was a huge advantage it is was the T2 BPO lottery. At least with safespots even if you couldn't create them again you could still scan people out with the current mechanics.

With the T2 BPO it is a isk printing machine for anyone lucky enough to get them, and there is no way with current mechanics of the game to suddenly have a new T2 BPO.

Please do not nerf structures ships at over 10AU from celestial's and if you do please nerf those evil T2 BPO owners which I can't hope to compete against.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.13 02:09:00 - [180]

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 13/04/2010 09:58:38
Originally by: "CCP Lemur"
This creates a division between older "haves" and newer "have-nots": as a new player coming into the game, the only way you'd be able to reach points outside the system proper get a T2 BPO would be to acquire a bookmark T2 BPO from an older player.

See what I did there?

Bwahahahahahahaahahahahahaaaaa Twisted Evil

And yes.. I find you inconsistent CCP.
If you say A, you also have to say B.. don't stop in the middle. Cool

oh and totally forgot:
/NOT signed

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