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DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:14:00 - [661]
 

Edited by: DNSBLACK on 14/04/2010 18:22:34
Edited by: DNSBLACK on 14/04/2010 18:21:29
Originally by: Punkt Landung
I see they’ve changed their minds now, here’s my thoughts as I’d already written em!

I read once that the original Eve developers realized fairly quickly that the universe they created could function as a viable social experiment where player actions and interactions would create something truly unique that no team of software developers could hope to create with code alone. I suspect that the original hope would have been to support these unique player creations and allow them to be implemented into general game play.

Jules Verne said, "Anything one man can imagine, other men can make real." In Eve anything that can be discovered or instigated by players IS real, until it is destroyed by CCP. There are places within the virtual worlds of the servers that have never been discovered and still lie, secretly hiding, from both players and developers. Surely this is part of the magic of the game?

In seeking to circumvent some of the limitations of the Eve universe, players have demonstrated that virtual exploration can unlock areas of space that were believed to be inaccessible. By using a ‘bug’ or an ‘exploit’ they have not only facilitated smoother game mechanics but they have also created an impression of the vastness of Eve space and the epic scale that must be a cornerstone of any ‘space’ game. The concept of people storing ships and supplies unimaginable distances out in space is just really cool. I appreciate that CCP never intended this to happen, but the fact that it has, has actually made the game scale even more impressive.

You cannot have a void where all players are in direct sight of anyone who chooses to look for them. The central appeal of a wilderness is its ‘emptiness’ of other human life. Your own country of Iceland has only 320,000 inhabitants and epic landscapes to inspire the human soul – how inspiring would these landscapes be if your population was 3 million and the mountains were covered in houses?

OK, so your computers can’t cope with this sort of expansion? Fair enough, explain it and I suspect most people will grudgingly except that technology has its limits. If you can’t deliver the vast lonely universe we want then we’ll have to accept the one you give us. BUT, I, like many others, can live without sim city on planets, new ship models, planet textures, browsers, FPS interaction, walking on stations etc, etc, etc – we want a truly massive, deep, dark, immersive space game and all the meaningless fluff is just not necessary.

The Eve universe is already unique, artistic, beautiful, and awe inspiring. You can’t make it more so by squeezing it into smaller and prettier rooms. If so, the concept of ‘space’ becomes meaningless; you might as well call planets and stations, ‘cities’ and put them under fixed sized ‘bio-domes’ connected by motorways.


I must agree this is how i feel. I also cant figure out why everyone considers this an expoit.

1. Fitted a ship in a station using everything the dev gave me.

2. Undocked warp to a gate and in the process of warping LOGGED off. Again a game mechanic the devs created so I could log back on again and play.

3. After logging on. I bring up my people and places and push the create book mark button.

4. The result is my ship ended up 20 au on the other side of the gate. Now some will argue that My ship is not allowed or shouldn't be there. I would argue if that space exist and iam in it then it is part of EVE.

"Natthan you said you would give us the tools to create" We did that using everything you guys developed and gave us. We havnt left EVE we are still in space. We have created a part of eve that you didnt have to develope and we are having fun. if this isnt a Matrix moment then i dont know what is. We have created communities in these DSS and we are thriving and living in 0.0 call us refugees call us what you like. Are we safe no we cnt

Elder Man
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:15:00 - [662]
 

Edited by: Elder Man on 14/04/2010 18:18:10
Quote:
OK, so your computers can’t cope with this sort of expansion? Fair enough, explain it and I suspect most people will grudgingly except that technology has its limits. If you can’t deliver the vast lonely universe we want then we’ll have to accept the one you give us. BUT, I, like many others, can live without sim city on planets, new ship models, planet textures, browsers, FPS interaction, walking on stations etc, etc, etc – we want a truly massive, deep, dark, immersive space game and all the meaningless fluff is just not necessary.


Quote:
4. The result is my ship ended up 20 au on the other side of the gate. Now some will argue that My ship is not allowed or shouldn't be there. I would argue if that space exist and iam in it then it is part of EVE.


Agreed,
EM

PeHD0M
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:17:00 - [663]
 

It is already 2010, and we are still playing "Waypoints online". The whole warp to bookmark system is outdated. You can't warp your ship to random XYZ point in space, you have to bookmark it first , and the bookmarking is not fun, terribly inconvenient process.

How about allowing us to warp to your probes position using scanning interface? That could open a lot of new gameplay options while reducing the server load:
- no more multiple bookmarks, wich are created only for purpose of moving your ship somewhere

DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:21:00 - [664]
 

Edited by: DNSBLACK on 14/04/2010 18:30:51
Edited by: DNSBLACK on 14/04/2010 18:29:18
can fall prey to meta gamers or deep probes. If anything we live on the edge and have everything at risk and one mistake we will lose more then most in this game. You are now planning on taking all this away and forcing us to live with in CCP'S not EVE'S Borders and as a result destroy what is by far the greatest internet experiment of its time. No other MMO has players like us willing to play a game as tough but as rewarding as this one. I hope you change your mind and let this one go

5. You gave us the tools and we have created so let this play remain. It is not an exploit we are in a part of space that exist cause honestly we are in it. Please dont give us some weak excuse it is why the lag exists. We have been doing this since 2004. We have seen lag come and go.

6. This is unlike tech 2 BPOs. Right now anyone can create these and live were they want and make the big alliance police there space or find away to kick us out. This truly has opened 0.0 for alot of us we just never said anything cause like in all of life you create something buetiful some one will want it and then wreck it for you.

XoPhyte
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:28:00 - [665]
 

At this point I would just wait for the next dev blog to come out hopefully clarifying some of these issues.

Guth
Neo Operations Management
Dragoon Federation
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:36:00 - [666]
 

Can an exception be made for the New Eden Solar System? :(

All that hard work trying to "Reach the gate" ;_;

The Optician
Pathfinder Enterprise
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:47:00 - [667]
 

Please don't nerf my deep safes...I've spent a lot of time making some of them and it would be a pity to lose them Sad

Areo Hotah
Paxton Industries
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:57:00 - [668]
 

Originally by: CCP Lemur
We've altered our plan addressing various concerns that you all voiced here in a reasonable manner. There will be a follow-up blog later today or tomorrow.


When are you going to change your communication protocols?

Every dev blog in the past half year concerning balance and game mechanics has been greeted with a **** storm and/or threadnaught because of your ad-hoc, poorly constructed blogs promising sweeping changes in gameplay with no gains for the players.


What you COULD do is.
a.) identify problem, and clearly state why this shouldn't be in the game / should be changed.
b.) come up with a solution.
c.) send solution to CSM, and give them one week to respond.
d.) if needed, change solution based on CSM feedback.
e.) make devblog, summarizing all of the above, and ask for additional feedback from the players
f.) based on player feedback, change solution again.
g.) make SISI implementation of solution, and have players test it for at least a month
h.) tweak solution on SISI based on feedback
i.) deploy to TQ


Kateryne
Minmatar
Kat's Discount Weapon Emporium
NISYN Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.14 19:04:00 - [669]
 

Originally by: Areo Hotah
Originally by: CCP Lemur
We've altered our plan addressing various concerns that you all voiced here in a reasonable manner. There will be a follow-up blog later today or tomorrow.


When are you going to change your communication protocols?

Every dev blog in the past half year concerning balance and game mechanics has been greeted with a **** storm and/or threadnaught because of your ad-hoc, poorly constructed blogs promising sweeping changes in gameplay with no gains for the players.


What you COULD do is.
a.) identify problem, and clearly state why this shouldn't be in the game / should be changed.
b.) come up with a solution.
c.) send solution to CSM, and give them one week to respond.
d.) if needed, change solution based on CSM feedback.
e.) make devblog, summarizing all of the above, and ask for additional feedback from the players
f.) based on player feedback, change solution again.
g.) make SISI implementation of solution, and have players test it for at least a month
h.) tweak solution on SISI based on feedback
i.) deploy to TQ




Or, you know, people could just accept that CCP know what's best to change code-wise in their own game that they've spent like a decade working on.
Hell I'm still waiting for the day jet cans get nerfed and the ensuing threadnought.

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.04.14 19:12:00 - [670]
 

Originally by: Kateryne

Or, you know, people could just accept that CCP know what's best to change code-wise in their own game that they've spent like a decade working on.
Hell I'm still waiting for the day jet cans get nerfed and the ensuing threadnought.


You must be new here.

Elizabeth Mancor
Posted - 2010.04.14 19:13:00 - [671]
 

Make deepsafe accessible without exploiting by making rare anomolies far outside the normal areas. Enhance the deep scanner probes so that they can find ships in deep safe spots and so on.

This would be a more normal approach to exploits found in this sandbox. Build on them, instead of removing something that is not really a problem.

joe hamil
Posted - 2010.04.14 19:14:00 - [672]
 

any chance CCP devs could so some sort example image using a in game system like jop or something similar, exactly as we would see it in game, showing the out of bound range? i have never really heard of deep safes before, but it would be good just to have an example

Den Dugg
Posted - 2010.04.14 19:39:00 - [673]
 

lolz for restricter plates on our shipsEmbarassed... space is suppose to be endless and free!! free!! freee!! free!!

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
Posted - 2010.04.14 19:40:00 - [674]
 

Originally by: DNSBLACK
I also cant figure out why everyone considers this an expoit.


Here's a hint: If achieving an effect in-game requires you close the game client and then re-log at the right time, its probably NOT an intended game mechanic.


Amberlamps
Posted - 2010.04.14 19:53:00 - [675]
 

Edited by: Amberlamps on 14/04/2010 19:52:50
Originally by: War Kitten
Originally by: DNSBLACK
I also cant figure out why everyone considers this an expoit.


Here's a hint: If achieving an effect in-game requires you close the game client and then re-log at the right time, its probably NOT an intended game mechanic.




Here's a hint: If achieving an effective gate gank in-game requires you close the game client and then re-log at the right time, its probably an intended game mechanic.


Aera Aiana
Amarr
Posted - 2010.04.14 19:53:00 - [676]
 

Originally by: War Kitten
Originally by: DNSBLACK
I also cant figure out why everyone considers this an expoit.


Here's a hint: If achieving an effect in-game requires you close the game client and then re-log at the right time, its probably NOT an intended game mechanic.


Yes, it is closely related to "If achieving an effect in-game requires you crash the server at the right time, its probably NOT an intended game mechanic.", but possibly not quite so obvious. Very Happy

As for the topic, I think 10 AU is a bit low. Give those deep space probes a reason to exist please!

gibdinn
Posted - 2010.04.14 20:09:00 - [677]
 

I ACTUALY EXPECTED FROM DEVS TO MAKE "POINT AND CLICK WARP" TO ENGAGE WARP WITHOUT PARTICULAR DESTINATION. AN OPTION THAT WOULD MADE SPACE MORE LARGER AND UNPREDICTABLE.

BUT I GOT A ZOO HERE... WTF?!

CRY!

DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2010.04.14 20:10:00 - [678]
 

Originally by: War Kitten
Originally by: DNSBLACK
I also cant figure out why everyone considers this an expoit.


Here's a hint: If achieving an effect in-game requires you close the game client and then re-log at the right time, its probably NOT an intended game mechanic.




Please show me in the EULA or Game policy this discription as the one for Exploit. See your defense dosnt hold water cause everyone has the ability to do this at any point in the game unlike other exploits like the moon scam.

1. Ok then logging off so you dont die in a fight is an exploit ( no it isnt according to CCP I petitioned that one and got an answer like this "We can not determine the reason why a player logged off, there for it is not a exploit and the game is operating as intended"). Wait better yet logging off period is an exploit. Maybe we should all wait until CCP decides when it is best for us to log out.


2. Logging out while warping and ending up back in EVE after you log in again is an exploit???? The ship was designed to continue warping after you logged. I didnt change the game or hack it or expoit it. The net result of the game being played was a 20 au or greater book mark in virgian space. They have known about this since 2004 and nothing was done. Bug reports were turned in and nothing was done. This process has made 0.0 fighting managable at best and given EVE the chance for the game they want it to be with large fights being able to engage and load grid. I have watch large fleet after large fleet die coming thru gates and never loading grid. matter fact i have watch all those pilots get volantary log off and not be able to log in for 13 hrs while the nod crashed. So would you call crashing a NOD an exploit.

iam sorry your reason for calling this an exploit hold no water this game requires you to log off. the results when you log in are not in your control but are sometimes predictable.

Uncle Fester
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.04.14 20:14:00 - [679]
 

I remember when i was first told of deep safes and the way they were made, way back in the day. There used to be an option, when you right clicked a star on the star map to add bookmark. When you used this bm it would use up all your cap in one go and warp you in a random dirrection, we used pods for their cap efficiency to make those 500au+ spots,players went on a bming frenzy and pretty much every major system/regions were bmd up within weeks.

A patch came soon after that removed the option from the star map, but the galaxy had already been bm pretty much completely.

Scan probes appeared and with enough training you could get good enough signals on all kinds of things upto 1000au, which was pretty much the limit of one deepsafe(ds) warp in a pod. All the ships shuttle, noobie ships, even fleets of ships that had been abandoned at these dsspots were found by a new set of players, and old, that were able to mark these hidden locations.

Then the scan probes changed, a new mini game appeared, which on the whole works nicely but for one thing. The max range of the probes with the new system was 1/4 that of the old system, instantly dsspots once again became virtually invunerably . The main problem i found with the max range probes is just one thing and one thing only, the map cant be scrolled out far enough for you to move the probes to places outside the system bodies orbits, this means even having a bm 100au out cant be found as you just cant manipulate the probes so they can find anyone at the bm.

So dsspots are once again invunerable, unlike last time when probes were developed to counter them, which was a great work around and a system that was perfect you what it was intended to do. This time, instead of thinking of a work around for the problem the system has now in combating ds' they just descide to remove the ds'.

CCP you have given us and lets face it yourselves a wonderous, virtually infinate 3D environment to act out all our/your universal domination fantasies or what ever they maybe. Not only do we have this infinate arena to play in, you also gave us/you the tools to explore and use it. You yourselves have told us your subscribers that we the players have taken this game in dirrections you could'nt possibly have predicted.

We/you have used these bm's since the day someone told us about it, you made features for the game that were designed as a result of what we did. Please for the love of whatever you hold dear, reconsider this change, instead of removing the problem get back to old school thinking and gives us a feature to work with them like last time, or just give us a bigger map, whatever it takes as i know the players will hate it and all of you at ccp play.

FesterEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad

Sunbird Huy
Caldari
WEPRA CORP
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.04.14 20:22:00 - [680]
 

Originally by: CCP Lemur
We've altered our plan addressing various concerns that you all voiced here in a reasonable manner. There will be a follow-up blog later today or tomorrow.


UNITED PLAYERS OF EVE >>> CCP DEV's + handfull of bots...
I guess they are going to work on Lagg issues now.ShockedCool

Skyrape
Posted - 2010.04.14 20:26:00 - [681]
 

Just out of curiosity, what alternative are you geniuses going to offer to super capital pilots who reside in lowsec?

Will they be forced to leave a multi-thousand dollar ship parket at a pos which can eventually go down to any decent sized fleet?

Or perhaps they should just log off their toons in the said super-capital and forget about playing eve on any other ship?

Food for thought!

Skyrape
Posted - 2010.04.14 20:33:00 - [682]
 

Originally by: Wirrtuell
Whats with this hypothetical Situation: Next Gate is 100 AU away, i drain my cap and fly 50 AU into Deepspace, between the Gates or whatever.
Devblog says: •You will no longer be able to issue a "warp to" command to any location outside this range
No "Warp to..:" from Combat Scan Probes to catch me up in 50-AU-Deepsave ?
:)


Expect some stupid a$$ GM to ban you and reply with "we don't have a log of that" to your petition... simply for _thinking_ about this!

Skyrape
Posted - 2010.04.14 20:41:00 - [683]
 

Originally by: maya ibuki2
Originally by: Lucian James
Thanks CCP!

Thank you SO MUCH for ignoring the problems you've created and do not fix which causes us to use these deep safes to begin with!

Thank you SO MUCH for ignoring your user community that uses these safes.

Thank you SO MUCH for all the lag and grid load problems to the point where we can no longer enter a system with a large fleet in lag else the entire entering fleet be destroyed without ever activating a module, loading grid OR any means of compensation for your complete inability to handle heavy loads!
"I'm sorry, but our server logs don't point out how badly we've handled our server load capacity and we're not going to refund your loss as a result."

Thank you SO MUCH for being so blatantly aweful in understanding basic customer service that you would destroy any ships including supercaps who don't read your worthless blogs and will lose billions in isk to your petty, selfish desires.

Thank you SO MUCH for devoting another big game expansion to garbage we don't need instead of fixing all the problems that exist in game.

Thank you SO MUCH for your continued arrogance and cruelty.

I sincerely hope that anyone who loses a SC to your wreckless selfishness will sue you in open court.




quoting the truth for great justice.

fix the lag before killing deep safespots.

infact, fix the lag full stop.


Thanks for taking the time to type this, I'll buy you beer.

Des Jardin
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.04.14 21:04:00 - [684]
 

While I appreciate (and have used on occassion) deep safe spots for various purposes, the EVE community cannot reasonably deny that a "logoffski" to confuse the EVE software into placing Internet spaceships at system coordinates beyond intended destinations is an out-of-game manipulation of an in-game function.

DSS have their benefits, there is no doubt, but CCP is making a clear statement with this change that the ends do not justify the means.

Evolve or die.




Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2010.04.14 21:04:00 - [685]
 

So why can't I fly to where I want in a system yet? All this is great but I still have to make bookmarks in warp or probe stuff out to get somewhere. (Pretty lame)

Constable Chang
Amarr
The Restorian Movement
Posted - 2010.04.14 21:17:00 - [686]
 

Originally by: DNSBLACK
Originally by: War Kitten
Originally by: DNSBLACK
I also cant figure out why everyone considers this an expoit.


Here's a hint: If achieving an effect in-game requires you close the game client and then re-log at the right time, its probably NOT an intended game mechanic.




Please show me in the EULA or Game policy this discription as the one for Exploit. See your defense dosnt hold water cause everyone has the ability to do this at any point in the game unlike other exploits like the moon scam.

1. Ok then logging off so you dont die in a fight is an exploit ( no it isnt according to CCP I petitioned that one and got an answer like this "We can not determine the reason why a player logged off, there for it is not a exploit and the game is operating as intended"). Wait better yet logging off period is an exploit. Maybe we should all wait until CCP decides when it is best for us to log out.


2. Logging out while warping and ending up back in EVE after you log in again is an exploit???? The ship was designed to continue warping after you logged. I didnt change the game or hack it or expoit it. The net result of the game being played was a 20 au or greater book mark in virgian space. They have known about this since 2004 and nothing was done. Bug reports were turned in and nothing was done. This process has made 0.0 fighting managable at best and given EVE the chance for the game they want it to be with large fights being able to engage and load grid. I have watch large fleet after large fleet die coming thru gates and never loading grid. matter fact i have watch all those pilots get volantary log off and not be able to log in for 13 hrs while the nod crashed. So would you call crashing a NOD an exploit.

iam sorry your reason for calling this an exploit hold no water this game requires you to log off. the results when you log in are not in your control but are sometimes predictable.


Unfortunately the definition of 'exploit' has changed significantly in recent years.

It used to mean 'taking advantage of a bug'.

Now it means 'something that the game company decides that it does not like' eg 'unintended consequences'.

In the MMO world, the game company is force majure and they effectively get sovereign rights to do whatever they please.

Its a bit like living in a totalitarian state where the state can kill anyone and destroy anyones assets any time, anywhere, for any reason whatsoever or even without a reason.

That is the nature of the contemporary MMO.

Rotti
Posted - 2010.04.14 21:24:00 - [687]
 

You would really thing that CCP had so little time that they would concentrating on important things and not this cr*p. DSS are used to get ppl into system that they can not get into cause the game is broke and will not let you load the grid, does this bold statement by you mean that you have fixed this problem and it is no longer present if so please say so so we can all rejoice, till ofc you release the patch and as normal it is all bullsh*t.

( note I have one DSS so I do not care, save that fact that you are concentrating resources on this and not on the major problems within the game )

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.14 21:32:00 - [688]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 14/04/2010 21:42:35
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 14/04/2010 21:41:53

Originally by: Des Jardin
...the EVE community cannot reasonably deny that a "logoffski" to confuse the EVE software into placing Internet spaceships at system coordinates beyond intended destinations is an out-of-game manipulation of an in-game function.

The only thing that went 'wrong' here in the first place was CCPs code, that handled E-warps while in warp like impulse-flights, thus applying inertia to your ship at high-speed-turning maneuvers..
Why our ship can't do warps into any direction we want for how long we want is beyond me. Maybe CCP should clear this up also.

The only thing which is problematic here at best are people who are able (with dedication and out-of-the-box-thinking) to fly to places in space where other people usually don't SEARCH for them and aren't really able to, because of the tools available to them.
That's the only problem I see here.. cause, no matter where the grid with your stuff is in the solar system, the grid gets created anyways, be it 1kAU out or 5,000km from the sun. So not even database calls are the reason here.. it's worse.. the more grids in range of your D-scan range.. the more DB calls/replies/tansactions.

And the blatant lie about the 'have and have-nots-struggle' is an insult to the players intelligence. The only one who is actually causing that is CCP themselfes, by removing the possibility to create those bookmarks and constrain the players into a sphere of radius x.
And even thats BS soon to be - as with the poseidon method gone try to fly to those boarders of the sphere.. LOL.
It's like any racing simulation.. you can't leave the freaking road. The only game I remember allowing this (within city boundaries) was a game that used Sim City maps as racing grounds - I liked it.
If we would get the possibility to scan for people out there better the problem would be gone..

Also, as long as CCP isn't coming over with the REAL thinking behind all of this and starts to treat us as intelligent audience they'll getting the exact same response.


ISHKUR MASTER
Gallente
Posted - 2010.04.14 21:55:00 - [689]
 

I personally think, these devs, their personal characters alliance have been pwned by deep safe cynos etc enemy fleets getting in system that they cant scan, so they lost badly and decided to nerf it.

Sounds more like sore loser syndrome....

Bearclaww
Posted - 2010.04.14 22:03:00 - [690]
 

Edited by: Bearclaww on 14/04/2010 22:06:02
What about adding the feature:

New Probe: deep space exploration probe, travels at 128AU per day, launch the probe like a standard moon probe.

Lifetime of probe determines range, level 1 of deep space exploration = 1 day of flight time, up to level 5 which is 5 days of exploration and another skill for how many max that you can have. The probes can be listed in the journal and when they are finished you have a bookmark (in this case a maximum of 640AU's), also you can make a rule where it can only be fired within a certain range of a celestial object.

deep space probes are still effective at probing people out w/ 8 of them 256AU each you can cover a lot of range to see what is out there.

You can also make it so deep space probes are picked up via scanner probes as well.

This will mean you do not need to constrict the universe; makes a new isk sink (make the skill cost some ISKies as well as the special NPC provided "bookmark probes"), and the deep space probing skill is no longer worthless.

I LIKE the fact that you are not currently limited to the NPC stuff within range of the star; allow players to expand beyond the star with their current skills! Currently there IS a small eco system in deep space; don't destroy it please!!!!!


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