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Lord Helghast
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:09:00 - [631]
 

1. removing from the game stuff outside the distance is idiotic, just warp them all to within the distance, scale back the coresponding bookmarks and locations of items outside the wall...

2. That said, having a wall in f*cking space is idiotic!

3. I still find that we shud be able to create deep safes, the fact is i find it stupid that we can't set a direction enable our warp drive and leter fly lol, but even so if its new vs old and closing the ctrl-q bug, then how bout this, FIX THE ctrl-q bug, and then give new and old players a proper sanctuned way for creating deep safes.

4. Implementing this before fixing the grid load problem is just insane

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:12:00 - [632]
 

Originally by: Punkt Landung
I see they’ve changed their minds now, here’s my thoughts as I’d already written em!

I read once that the original Eve developers realized fairly quickly that the universe they created could function as a viable social experiment where player actions and interactions would create something truly unique that no team of software developers could hope to create with code alone. I suspect that the original hope would have been to support these unique player creations and allow them to be implemented into general game play.

Jules Verne said, "Anything one man can imagine, other men can make real." In Eve anything that can be discovered or instigated by players IS real, until it is destroyed by CCP. There are places within the virtual worlds of the servers that have never been discovered and still lie, secretly hiding, from both players and developers. Surely this is part of the magic of the game?

In seeking to circumvent some of the limitations of the Eve universe, players have demonstrated that virtual exploration can unlock areas of space that were believed to be inaccessible. By using a ‘bug’ or an ‘exploit’ they have not only facilitated smoother game mechanics but they have also created an impression of the vastness of Eve space and the epic scale that must be a cornerstone of any ‘space’ game. The concept of people storing ships and supplies unimaginable distances out in space is just really cool. I appreciate that CCP never intended this to happen, but the fact that it has, has actually made the game scale even more impressive.

You cannot have a void where all players are in direct sight of anyone who chooses to look for them. The central appeal of a wilderness is its ‘emptiness’ of other human life. Your own country of Iceland has only 320,000 inhabitants and epic landscapes to inspire the human soul – how inspiring would these landscapes be if your population was 3 million and the mountains were covered in houses?

OK, so your computers can’t cope with this sort of expansion? Fair enough, explain it and I suspect most people will grudgingly except that technology has its limits. If you can’t deliver the vast lonely universe we want then we’ll have to accept the one you give us. BUT, I, like many others, can live without sim city on planets, new ship models, planet textures, browsers, FPS interaction, walking on stations etc, etc, etc – we want a truly massive, deep, dark, immersive space game and all the meaningless fluff is just not necessary.

The Eve universe is already unique, artistic, beautiful, and awe inspiring. You can’t make it more so by squeezing it into smaller and prettier rooms. If so, the concept of ‘space’ becomes meaningless; you might as well call planets and stations, ‘cities’ and put them under fixed sized ‘bio-domes’ connected by motorways.



REALLY good feedback here.

Qeesa
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:16:00 - [633]
 

This is the pinnacle of stupidity and MUST be stopped.

There is a threadnaught about this in the Assembly Hall, go there and voice your opinion.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:25:00 - [634]
 

For those worried about 10 AU being too narrow:

Do consider that all bookmarks further out will be removed, so there is no way to warp further out than the furthest celestial. So essentially, to hit this so called "wall" which isn't a wall because you can still fly past it, you would have to go with an MWD from the planet/stargate furthest from the sun, straight outwards. Even with a maxed out (20km/s which I think is very generous) cap stable interceptor do you realize how long time it would take you to go 10 AU? We're talking two and a half years, real time!

And that's just to hit the limit where you can't create bookmarks or light a cyno any more! You can still continue outwards for as long as you wish.

Even starting from a very lucky bookmark right on the border at 9.9999 AU still doesn't mean that you bounce into a "wall" if you go further out, it just means you can't create any more bookmarks or light cynos.

It would be great if people could just take their time to read and understand what is written before they start drawing crazy conclusions and emo-raging.

Galison
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:28:00 - [635]
 

Edited by: Galison on 14/04/2010 14:29:50
I'm sure its been said but I've seen some people complaining about the super cap losses that will happen guess what park that **** at a POS.

Going away a few months then sell the damn thing don't use a messed up way of keeping it safe and then ***** when CCP fixs it, they stay in game for a reseaon if you can afford a super cap you honestly can afford the deathstar pos to store it at.

Worried the pos would be attacked and your ship would be lost well then your alliance sucks at protecting its space and assets. Alliance tears power my ships so keep the *****ing and moaning coming.

As for needing them because of lag yea maybe CCP does need to fix it but that and superdeeps are 2 seperate issues. I do how ever hope ccp posts a listing of ships lost because of the changes should be a fun read.

Redshirt I
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:43:00 - [636]
 

This is just stupid. This game is supposed to give us as real a space experience as possible and limiting our exploration travels to 10 AU really takes a way from the immersion I felt. I didn't care that I never found anything when I was speeding away from celestials to the great unknown, the fact that I could was enough for me.

If its a matter of players exploiting the current system to keep from being harmed then IMPROVE THE SCANNING AND PROBING!!! don't remove an interesting aspect of this game and the feeling that it truly is a vast game world rather then a glass box.

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

And with all the real problems this game has, THIS is what you decide to "fix"?!?!

Stupid.

Red


338Lapua
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:46:00 - [637]
 

Originally by: Tarhim
Originally by: Narfas Deteis

For example finding abadoned/wrecked ships (both players and NPCs) or mining comets. You don't need to be sarcastic.


Sure, wrecks, comets to be mined, hulks of odd generation ships and stuff like that would be exciting (for a while, at least).

However it will be as realistic as nonmoving celestias and respawning asteroids.


On a lighter note, if they went through with this as they HAD originally planned there would have potentially been quite a few wrecks out there. Think of all those MOMs etc :)

Squat Hardpeck
State Protectorate
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:54:00 - [638]
 

Despite all of this whining, nobody will quit, they'll keep playing, and then find something else to ***** about.

Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.04.14 15:01:00 - [639]
 

Originally by: Sajeera
Originally by: Dan O'Connor

I don't think that's entirely accurate. Space will expand behind the 10 AU barrier. It's just that you can't warp to it or scan things behind it. That's a subtle difference.


Thats exactly how it was in AoC, you see things, you just cant go there because there is an invisible wall that stops you.

One of the main 3 or 4 things people were pointing for the reason they don't like the game was this - invisible walls everywhere.

Funcom tried to improved it a little but they were limited by their engine and bad design decisions they made early during the development.

Now EvE is a game that don't have these problems and they want to implement them willingly??!! Rolling Eyes

Leave everything as it is just remove the mechanic for making deep safes or introduce a legal way for creating them.

This invissible wall will hurt your game more then you can imagine.




I don't think there will be a wall as such - you can go beyond the limit. Just bookmarking and warping won't work. That is still a difference.

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2010.04.14 15:02:00 - [640]
 

good changes; the further we distance ourselves from AFK Online the better

Khaelis
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.14 15:12:00 - [641]
 

For those of you whining about losing some "Exploration" value because of the removal of deep safes, please tell me how you would find such places? There is absolutely NO way, you would EVER find these locations unless you knew where they were. People interested in the vastness of space are not losing anything, infact they may be gaining content as things will be closer and therefore be possible to probe.

The systems in eve have always been walled up. The arbitrary value just keeps it within a reasonable area to make sure that all things can be found by other players, instead of hidden away forever.

I do think they should fix the dominion lag before they do this though.

Whilst I don't really disagree with the change a whole, I think the "Wall" should be abit further out, perhaps 20-50? its still very probable.

Also deleting peoples ships may be a little harsh, just make them log on somewhere random in the system.

DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
Posted - 2010.04.14 15:16:00 - [642]
 

Originally by: Baka Lakadaka
Originally by: Marlenus
I'm totally cool with nerfing the stupid-deep safe spots; saw that one coming.

But 10AU? Really? That's too short.

First, missions routinely take you to about 20AU from a planet; if that planet is the "furthest out" celestial, those missions will all be broken, at least the 50% of the time that the mission spawns in an "out" direction. 20AU is thus a logical minimum.

Second, some of us have put a ton of effort into scanning skills specifically for finding hard-to-find distant objects. You're makeing a rule that says everything has to be in d-scan range of something, ferchrissake. Isn't that excessive?

The deep space probes have a 256AU range. I think that would make a good "shell" distance if there must be one. If there are database issues, I could settle for 64AU.

But I think it's ESSENTIAL that players be allowed to retain some sort of safes in places the d-scanner cannot reach. It's one thing to eliminate ancient advantages, it's another to dumb things down so that hard-won probing skills don't get you anywhere than a fresh alt with a d-scanner can get.


We're 18 pages in and the misconception that you can't get more than 10AU from celestials is persisting. It's quite possible to be 20AU from all celestials.

The new 'boundary' is a sphere, centred on the sun. The radius of this sphere is equal to the distance from the sun to the furthest celestial + 10 AU. You can make safes at ANY point within the sphere and many of those will be more than 10AU from any celestial. Any of these safe spots is fine, provided it's within the sphere.

As an example: the stargate in a system is 50AU from the sun. This is the most distant object from the sun. The boundary is a sphere that is 60AU radius and centred on the sun.

256AU probes might not be commonly used, but in some systems when you're sitting at a planet that is 80 AU from the sun, the other side of the sphere is at least 170AU away, so a probe dropped right next to you can reach the other side of the sphere. I know you can move probes around and all, but if you're after a quick scan and recover you want to save as much time as possible.

As to the change itself, probably not the best way to announce it, the effects are yet to be seen. As usual, players will improvise, adapt and overcome. I'm not a fan of it, but whining isn't my style. I'd rather analyse it and start working on ways to adapt.


Actually, it's not a Sphere, Most systems only have huge growth on the horizontal.. So now a 200 wide au system will be like 220 au wide, and anywhere from 20 to 40 au in the vert...

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.04.14 15:43:00 - [643]
 

Originally by: Punkt Landung
I see they’ve changed their minds now, here’s my thoughts as I’d already written em!

I read once that the original Eve developers realized fairly quickly that the universe they created could function as a viable social experiment where player actions and interactions would create something truly unique that no team of software developers could hope to create with code alone. I suspect that the original hope would have been to support these unique player creations and allow them to be implemented into general game play.

Jules Verne said, "Anything one man can imagine, other men can make real." In Eve anything that can be discovered or instigated by players IS real, until it is destroyed by CCP. There are places within the virtual worlds of the servers that have never been discovered and still lie, secretly hiding, from both players and developers. Surely this is part of the magic of the game?

In seeking to circumvent some of the limitations of the Eve universe, players have demonstrated that virtual exploration can unlock areas of space that were believed to be inaccessible. By using a ‘bug’ or an ‘exploit’ they have not only facilitated smoother game mechanics but they have also created an impression of the vastness of Eve space and the epic scale that must be a cornerstone of any ‘space’ game. The concept of people storing ships and supplies unimaginable distances out in space is just really cool. I appreciate that CCP never intended this to happen, but the fact that it has, has actually made the game scale even more impressive.

You cannot have a void where all players are in direct sight of anyone who chooses to look for them. The central appeal of a wilderness is its ‘emptiness’ of other human life. Your own country of Iceland has only 320,000 inhabitants and epic landscapes to inspire the human soul – how inspiring would these landscapes be if your population was 3 million and the mountains were covered in houses?

OK, so your computers can’t cope with this sort of expansion? Fair enough, explain it and I suspect most people will grudgingly except that technology has its limits. If you can’t deliver the vast lonely universe we want then we’ll have to accept the one you give us. BUT, I, like many others, can live without sim city on planets, new ship models, planet textures, browsers, FPS interaction, walking on stations etc, etc, etc – we want a truly massive, deep, dark, immersive space game and all the meaningless fluff is just not necessary.

The Eve universe is already unique, artistic, beautiful, and awe inspiring. You can’t make it more so by squeezing it into smaller and prettier rooms. If so, the concept of ‘space’ becomes meaningless; you might as well call planets and stations, ‘cities’ and put them under fixed sized ‘bio-domes’ connected by motorways.



^^ I like this

Also, glad to see CCP had decided to change things based on player input. While I don't know what those changes are yet, I hope they are for the best and it's good to know that they are at least listening.

Rico Lobo
Posted - 2010.04.14 16:05:00 - [644]
 

Edited by: Rico Lobo on 14/04/2010 16:05:37
Originally by: CCP Lemur
We've altered our plan addressing various concerns that you all voiced here in a reasonable manner. There will be a follow-up blog later today or tomorrow.


you know what this means dont you!

To the Ba -- er -- Blogcave!

ok ok I admit it, I love sliding down firepoles.

.
.
.
wait, we were resonable about all of this?

ZOGYBOY
Posted - 2010.04.14 16:09:00 - [645]
 

Defenetly a crappy ideea, but considering that in order to make SSs u had to cheat the game somhow....it's not very surprizing.
I like my safespot allso, even though it;s made in hisec. That's not the ideea. It's vital for everibody to be able to have his small private corner where nobody can find him. Or at least, very hard.
U should think about implemeting the safespots in the tyrania release, not get them out. These things might **** some players off, but they might allso satisfy others. Why not having safespots??? That's the question. Becasue u cannot find a fleet that's hiding? Blah, makes no sense.

Khaelis
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.14 16:17:00 - [646]
 

Originally by: DeODokktor


Actually, it's not a Sphere, Most systems only have huge growth on the horizontal.. So now a 200 wide au system will be like 220 au wide, and anywhere from 20 to 40 au in the vert...


Are you serious?

Yes it is a sphere.
200 AU Wise system would be 210 wide, all around. As 210AU would become the radius of the sphere, radiating from the centre of the sun in all directions. Including verticle.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.04.14 16:20:00 - [647]
 

I do find this a rather strange nerf.

The 10AU limit is way too small, you should at least double it.
When people can make safe now newer have nots can get them, the whole nerf thing seems ott. Not sure on your logic in this regard.

The destroying of items and peoples ships even podding some to stations, seems very harsh and uncalled for.
Those logged at deep safes should be placed either at another point in the system, or when they log on warped to a random point.

This change has me baffled tbh.


Avoida
Posted - 2010.04.14 16:36:00 - [648]
 

Originally by: Khaelis
Originally by: DeODokktor


Actually, it's not a Sphere, Most systems only have huge growth on the horizontal.. So now a 200 wide au system will be like 220 au wide, and anywhere from 20 to 40 au in the vert...


Are you serious?

Yes it is a sphere.
200 AU Wise system would be 210 wide, all around. As 210AU would become the radius of the sphere, radiating from the centre of the sun in all directions. Including verticle.


Technically you are both correct. If the system has all the planets, moons and gates existing on a plane how do you expect to go above/below that plane when you're limited to warping between objects? In that regard, the distance above/below the plane is minimal. If you find a mission, deadspace complex, anomaly, etc above/below and the poseidon mechanic remains viable then you can still get above/below the plane of the system up to the limit of the sphere.

RentableMuffin
Posted - 2010.04.14 16:49:00 - [649]
 

uhhh guys... I hate to be the one to bring this up but sandboxes have walls... walls are kinda in the definition of a box to begin with...

and of all ****ing things to complain about ccp limiting your choices... I mean where are the custom player ships, I want a RentableMuffin's modified vexor. when it comes to crafting on most items I'm limited to producing either tech 1, or tech2, and on some items there are even multiple tech 2 varients! I mean t3 is nice, but for many it is prohibitivly expensive, and well, there are only a few combos that really work.

but to complain you can't have a spot in deep bumble**** nowhere to do nothing in.... I had more faith in the eve community...

however I will say there has been one valid point if a deep safe is really the only way to get a fleet into system without lagging the hell out, then well... ccp has some explaining to do.

okay 2 points, don't **** over people that have been away from game for a while, eespcially those guy/gals out on deployment. o7

Tierius Fro
Posted - 2010.04.14 16:50:00 - [650]
 

I agree that destroying items in deep safe spots is wrong and unnecessary.

As far as putting up “walls”, this is not a space SIM, it is a space game. Game play trumps reality, every time.

MissyDark
Posted - 2010.04.14 17:04:00 - [651]
 

Edited by: MissyDark on 14/04/2010 17:06:42
Dumb idea. Since deep safespots are used and desired by players, they enhance the game. So how about you make a valid way of making those, instead of nerfing something people want?

Also: freedom = good. limits = bad.

TL;DR: don't!

Drazi1
Minmatar
The Knights Templar
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.04.14 17:14:00 - [652]
 

way to go CCP, u think deep safe spots nerfing take priority over sorting out the lag that has been effecting nearly every1. Just shows ur priorities atm :-(.
Expect to be very busy with all the petitions that will ben heading ur way after this Laughing

Dennison Spade
Posted - 2010.04.14 17:18:00 - [653]
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Vlt-lpVOY

"This is a bummer man... that's a bummer,"


Shaka Quatuic
Posted - 2010.04.14 17:26:00 - [654]
 

Originally by: Punkt Landung
I see they’ve changed their minds now, here’s my thoughts as I’d already written em!

I read once that the original Eve developers realized fairly quickly that the universe they created could function as a viable social experiment where player actions and interactions would create something truly unique that no team of software developers could hope to create with code alone. I suspect that the original hope would have been to support these unique player creations and allow them to be implemented into general game play.

Jules Verne said, "Anything one man can imagine, other men can make real." In Eve anything that can be discovered or instigated by players IS real, until it is destroyed by CCP. There are places within the virtual worlds of the servers that have never been discovered and still lie, secretly hiding, from both players and developers. Surely this is part of the magic of the game?

In seeking to circumvent some of the limitations of the Eve universe, players have demonstrated that virtual exploration can unlock areas of space that were believed to be inaccessible. By using a ‘bug’ or an ‘exploit’ they have not only facilitated smoother game mechanics but they have also created an impression of the vastness of Eve space and the epic scale that must be a cornerstone of any ‘space’ game. The concept of people storing ships and supplies unimaginable distances out in space is just really cool. I appreciate that CCP never intended this to happen, but the fact that it has, has actually made the game scale even more impressive.

You cannot have a void where all players are in direct sight of anyone who chooses to look for them. The central appeal of a wilderness is its ‘emptiness’ of other human life. Your own country of Iceland has only 320,000 inhabitants and epic landscapes to inspire the human soul – how inspiring would these landscapes be if your population was 3 million and the mountains were covered in houses?

OK, so your computers can’t cope with this sort of expansion? Fair enough, explain it and I suspect most people will grudgingly except that technology has its limits. If you can’t deliver the vast lonely universe we want then we’ll have to accept the one you give us. BUT, I, like many others, can live without sim city on planets, new ship models, planet textures, browsers, FPS interaction, walking on stations etc, etc, etc – we want a truly massive, deep, dark, immersive space game and all the meaningless fluff is just not necessary.

The Eve universe is already unique, artistic, beautiful, and awe inspiring. You can’t make it more so by squeezing it into smaller and prettier rooms. If so, the concept of ‘space’ becomes meaningless; you might as well call planets and stations, ‘cities’ and put them under fixed sized ‘bio-domes’ connected by motorways.



this is simply a beautiful expression of what I originally felt when I started eve. well said.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.04.14 17:36:00 - [655]
 

That will make getting into hostile system pretty bad in this age of bombers. Current counterbomber tackics is to open deep safe cyno, bridge your fleet there and get the hell out before bombers land there.

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2010.04.14 17:41:00 - [656]
 

Originally by: Tierius Fro

As far as putting up “walls”, this is not a space SIM, it is a space game. Game play trumps reality, every time.



Acording to CCP, the target for eve is to become the bigest science fiction simulation ever. There are many other aspects than spaceships already in the game.. are you sure you actually play that game? The walls actually destroy that simulation feeling.

Amberlamps
Posted - 2010.04.14 17:43:00 - [657]
 

Originally by: Shaka Quatuic
Originally by: Punkt Landung
I see they’ve changed their minds now, here’s my thoughts as I’d already written em!

I read once that the original Eve developers realized fairly quickly that the universe they created could function as a viable social experiment where player actions and interactions would create something truly unique that no team of software developers could hope to create with code alone. I suspect that the original hope would have been to support these unique player creations and allow them to be implemented into general game play.

Jules Verne said, "Anything one man can imagine, other men can make real." In Eve anything that can be discovered or instigated by players IS real, until it is destroyed by CCP. There are places within the virtual worlds of the servers that have never been discovered and still lie, secretly hiding, from both players and developers. Surely this is part of the magic of the game?

In seeking to circumvent some of the limitations of the Eve universe, players have demonstrated that virtual exploration can unlock areas of space that were believed to be inaccessible. By using a ‘bug’ or an ‘exploit’ they have not only facilitated smoother game mechanics but they have also created an impression of the vastness of Eve space and the epic scale that must be a cornerstone of any ‘space’ game. The concept of people storing ships and supplies unimaginable distances out in space is just really cool. I appreciate that CCP never intended this to happen, but the fact that it has, has actually made the game scale even more impressive.

You cannot have a void where all players are in direct sight of anyone who chooses to look for them. The central appeal of a wilderness is its ‘emptiness’ of other human life. Your own country of Iceland has only 320,000 inhabitants and epic landscapes to inspire the human soul – how inspiring would these landscapes be if your population was 3 million and the mountains were covered in houses?

OK, so your computers can’t cope with this sort of expansion? Fair enough, explain it and I suspect most people will grudgingly except that technology has its limits. If you can’t deliver the vast lonely universe we want then we’ll have to accept the one you give us. BUT, I, like many others, can live without sim city on planets, new ship models, planet textures, browsers, FPS interaction, walking on stations etc, etc, etc – we want a truly massive, deep, dark, immersive space game and all the meaningless fluff is just not necessary.

The Eve universe is already unique, artistic, beautiful, and awe inspiring. You can’t make it more so by squeezing it into smaller and prettier rooms. If so, the concept of ‘space’ becomes meaningless; you might as well call planets and stations, ‘cities’ and put them under fixed sized ‘bio-domes’ connected by motorways.



this is simply a beautiful expression of what I originally felt when I started eve. well said.


Agreed.

Though once WIS comes out I won't be surprised if we are reduced to 2d movements in space due to server load. Any excuse to attempt to hide the fact that Dominion created an undeniable amount of lag.


wiersma
Caldari
Dark Matter Systems
Posted - 2010.04.14 17:59:00 - [658]
 

this is just silly, so might aswell delete deep space scan probes from the game too because they are mostly useless after tyranis is deployed

cuncannon
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:06:00 - [659]
 

Edited by: cuncannon on 14/04/2010 18:09:01
Oh well there goes my deepest safe in game and prob the deepest ever safe in game at 1778 AU from the nearest planet or object in the U-SHO2 system in fountain

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1004/mega-super-safe.jpg

People who was a few years ago in Xelas Alliance will remeber this one, 10-15 mins for a carrier sized ship to fly to, a bs/bc 5 or 6 warps to get there, cruiser or frigate forget it. Or from the safe spot set ap for DBRN next door, go and make a coffee, time you get back you may be just getting to the gate. I joke not Cool

Sajeera
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:13:00 - [660]
 

Originally by: cuncannon
Edited by: cuncannon on 14/04/2010 18:09:01
Oh well there goes my deepest safe in game and prob the deepest ever safe in game at 1778 AU from the nearest planet or object in the U-SHO2 system in fountain

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1004/mega-super-safe.jpg

People who was a few years ago in Xelas Alliance will remeber this one, 10-15 mins for a carrier sized ship to fly to, a bs/bc 5 or 6 warps to get there, cruiser or frigate forget it. Or from the safe spot set ap for DBRN next door, go and make a coffee, time you get back you may be just getting to the gate. I joke not Cool


Have one at a little over 5000 AU Shocked


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