open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog: The Great Deep Safe Nerf of 2010
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 12 13 14 15 [16] 17 18 19 20 ... : last (28)

Author Topic

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2010.04.13 18:37:00 - [451]
 

Originally by: Lamasul
Another interesting Question:

What is when i log off in a Wormhole system an warp out of the 10 AU area?
How far will i warp away on log off?


Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I've never created a DSS but, the tutorials I've read require you to log off and log on in order to obtain them presumably because your ship warps to some distant random location.

So, what about all those people that have logged off without docking? Seems like maybe there's gonna be a lot of people ****ed off when they come back after the application of the expansion,DSS or not.

I have to say this sounds like a horrible idea CCP. After this the only thing this game is going to be lacking is a discernible floor, ceiling and walls. Space in a box.

If this fix is being done to help with lag issues great. But perhaps you should stop advertising Eve as a space game implying vast amounts of space?

Maeve Kell
Posted - 2010.04.13 18:44:00 - [452]
 

So you force us to jump directly into the blob to die like in d-g? n1 ccp, nerf attacking even more.

ZergRushJohnny
Ch3mic4l Warfare
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2010.04.13 18:52:00 - [453]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Lamasul
Another interesting Question:

What is when i log off in a Wormhole system an warp out of the 10 AU area?
How far will i warp away on log off?


Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I've never created a DSS but, the tutorials I've read require you to log off and log on in order to obtain them presumably because your ship warps to some distant random location.

So, what about all those people that have logged off without docking? Seems like maybe there's gonna be a lot of people ****ed off when they come back after the application of the expansion,DSS or not.

I have to say this sounds like a horrible idea CCP. After this the only thing this game is going to be lacking is a discernible floor, ceiling and walls. Space in a box.

If this fix is being done to help with lag issues great. But perhaps you should stop advertising Eve as a space game implying vast amounts of space?


When you log off normally you only warp about 100,000km away (or maybe it's 10,000), either way it's nowhere near 10AU, you will be safe just logging off as normal.

The way the DSS's work is logging off in warp at the right time with a specific ship fitting and relogging quickly to create a bookmark. Tried it last night after reading this just to have a DSS before they went extinct, it's actually kinda fun seeing how far out you can get.

But this method of creating DSS's (known as the Poseidon Method) will be fixed as well, so it won't even be allowed to happen by accident, you have no worries about something happening to you in a WH or not.

As for your other points (horrible idea, space in a box, false advertising, lack of a sandbox, etc) I completely agree. Giving some of the comments in the dev blog about it being impossible to find these spots I don't think the issue is lag. Instead of nerfing deep safes I'd rather see CCP consider options that allow us to keep sandbox play while nerfing only the -inability to find- deep safes (not the safes themselves, only being able to find them), such as my suggestion HERE (shameless plug).

Iguanoid
Caldari
No.Mercy
Merciless.
Posted - 2010.04.13 18:52:00 - [454]
 

Until the massive lag issues are fixed this has no place on the discussion table, let alone serious consideration for implementation in a months time.

And quite frankly that after 16 pages of pretty 1 sided criticism, offset by a few people with no practical experience of why these are needed in the games current state, i am shocked that the only dev response has been "sorry i went home before anyone got to see this, here is a link to some random guy who explained in 1 picture what i failed to explain in a wall of text. Oh and as for all your concerns, i read 11 pages of whining and i dont see a problem so htfu".

Best make it so alliances cant blue each other any more, and cant have more than 100 members and cant blue / red anyone anymore. That way you will "discourage" engagements of more than 100 vs 100 by creating a clusterfuk of the whole overview concept, and make the biggest steps in fighting the lag monster.

Way to go, wtb more bananas for the trained monkeys in the dev & QA departments, seeing as you fed them all the hamsters that used to keep the server running. Rolling Eyes

Atius Shinkan
UK Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.04.13 18:55:00 - [455]
 

some asshats I must say, as if this was a big issue in game.

Instead of removing some of the few things that helps a little on your relaxing lag features, how about actually doing something with the lag!

Sikari Nillfar
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:07:00 - [456]
 

Come on CCP, you gave us a sandbox and the tools to play around, you talk endlessly about this. Now that we have played around and made us self comfortable with this, you take it away cause you think its wrong....

you guys are lost, its space, its vaste....

Raneru
Combat and Recon
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:14:00 - [457]
 

Spoil sports Sad

Radix Salvilines
legion industries ltd
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:17:00 - [458]
 

i usually avoid large discussion threads but this idea is so unnecessary and stupid... that i will leave my comment which is:

NO

britishfish
Minmatar
The first genesis
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:19:00 - [459]
 

doesnt really effect me but i thought i would post to say no wonder the grid/lag issues havent been fixed as your fixing stuff no one really gives a **** about ...again

EasyPickingsOA
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:20:00 - [460]
 

CCP forget the new bells and whistles, fix the goddam lag.

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:22:00 - [461]
 

Originally by: BeanBagKing

This isn't the only one. A lot of players are unhappy about the lack of lag fix and this being the only way around it. Lets assume for a minute that lag was fixed... I STILL WOULD NOT BE HAPPY ABOUT THIS! I don't even fly cap ships or use deep safes. Why would I be unhappy then you ask?



Again, fixing lag is probably a different dev team than the game-balance/bug-fixing/whatever-this-team-is. Players using this bug/feature/quirk to mitigate some lag doesn't make it neccesary bug/feature/quirk to keep.

Originally by: BeanBagKing

Because I am now limited to a big room with highways (lines between warp-able objects). Maybe if I use mission bookmarks I can get outside these narrow lines a bit, at most 10AU away from a celestial (yes, I know, more if it's in a straight line, I understand the pictures, etc). What happened to the sandbox space game I was playing? It's now not as much of a sandbox, I can't play in it with my own rules, if they aren't the devs rules they are a "bug" and a OMGWTF GIANT NERFBAT will be used to correct them, and it might as well not be space because I can't go anywhere that isn't close to, or in direct line between, two warpable objects.


The sandbox always had limits, and was always rooms connected by little doors, and you've always been limited by lines to/from warpable objects (except for the random e-warp). CCP has decided that playing with the sand outside the limits of a 10au circle around the box is detrimental to the game and they are changing things. Oh noes. You've always had to play in the sandbox within their rules. Bad argument.

Originally by: BeanBagKing

F*** THAT! Not to mention destroying Deep Space Probes

Again, if, for reasons of server stability, the HAVE to put limits on a solar system, it should be -at least- 500AU so that we still have room to play and DSP's are still useful.



So what? Do you own a deep space probe BPO and your market just went down the tubes? Ridiculous argument.

Originally by: BeanBagKing

Also, if for reasons of e-warp abuse (other than creating said safes, such as logoffsky macro miners), they have to destroy the posidon method, then introduce a way to make deep safes. This way new players -can- make them, as well as old, though this method should be neither easy nor fast IMO. The argument that it's not fair to newer doesn't hold water in light of T2 BPO's and Trophy Ships, really no argument about removing this holds water.


I think you're close to a reasonable argument here. They're fixing the now-officially-declared bug of the poseidon method. As a consequence, this would make all those unintended existing bookmarks un-reproduceable without already having access to one. (Incidently, this is a difference in the T2 BPO argument too... invention can create a T2 BPC. It doesn't only take access to an existing BPO to create the BPC.)

Anyway, rather than deciding to accept the existence of ships, items and bookmarks outside the limits of their sandbox, CCP decided to clean up the mess and throw the sand back into the box (Or throw it in the trash as it currently stands).

Originally by: BeanBagKing

I see a LOT of *****ing on these forums about different things, cloaking, T2 BPO's, logoffsky tactics, lag. I don't think I've ever seen *****ing about deep safes... until now that is, and all that *****ing seems to be directed at CCP in the form of "we're ****ed, don't do this"


You're assuming *****ing about something motivates people to fix something, especially programmers. This is a common misconception.

I think the change is positive, long-term. It removes the warp-to-1000au-safe-and-loggoffski tactic, and it probably will clean up a lot of floating-in-space junk that adds to the lag of loading a system. It'll probably clean up the bookmark database a bit too.

Chattia Kand
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:28:00 - [462]
 

Originally by: War Kitten


I think the change is positive, long-term. It removes the warp-to-1000au-safe-and-loggoffski tactic, and it probably will clean up a lot of floating-in-space junk that adds to the lag of loading a system. It'll probably clean up the bookmark database a bit too.


This

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:29:00 - [463]
 

quote=Lamasul]Another interesting Question:

What is when i log off in a Wormhole system an warp out of the 10 AU area?
How far will i warp away on log off?


This!

Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:29:00 - [464]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III


Did you not think, even for a second, that that sort of clear, concise explanation should have been in the devblog? By not communicating clearly you are creating work for yourself and damaging your own reputation, and you only have yourself to blame.



His post WAS clear: "10AU further from the local star than the furthest-out celestial object"

How could it be any clearer? Do you see anoything there that is not EXACTLY CONCISE? Dont blame him for not being concise. The picture only ilustrates what is CLEARLY SAYS in the text.

Its the n00bs out there that suddenly puts in a rule about it beeing about range to celestial boddies. I know a lot of stuff in the game works like that, but the blog didn't mention it at all. That some people cant READ without adding a lot of imaginary text which is not there, does not make it inconcise. Not by a long shot.

You could blame him for not illustrating, or not giving examples, but NOT for not being concise.

Tempest Fortius20
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:36:00 - [465]
 

You claim one of the reasons for this change is that it causes an unfair advantage to older players, as the only way a new player can get a safespot bookmark is from an older player. I'm sorry, but aside from that being the POINT of the game.... What about ****ing T2 blueprint originals? That's one of the most UNFAIR aspects of the game I've seen so far..... If you really wanna "Level" the playing field.... how about scrapping the outdated BPOs, whose value is now almost unlimited?

ALSO

How about instead of making a bunch of random changes, you fix the core issues like lag, so that the game is actually playable during large fleet battles

PeHD0M
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:39:00 - [466]
 

That nerf sucks. With every year EVE became more and more restrictive. Too much stupid rules, that breaks the immersion from spaceflight. You can't do this, you can't do that.. Evil or Very Mad More rules = less fun. I'm not quiting, but that sucks. Really.

Crystal Starbreeze
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:44:00 - [467]
 

I have scanned out lost fighters 700AU from the system successfully with deep space scanners.

What is a little unknown is if you leave the solar system just a bit (about 100AU out) then start dropping 256AU deep space probes you can continue to adjust the view until the solar system is very small as you drop a probe, shift move it then drop another one.

It takes over a hour with scanning but I've setup search patterns in some case probes out as far at 1500au - 2000au.

Yes I realize most people don't do that, but just because you are OUT at 1000AU does not mean you are safe!

This nukes a small but useful skill most people never use for deep space scanning. I think it is sad that the world of eve is being shrunk by so much and the deep space probes are now going to be completely useless!

Driven Marcelli
Minmatar
Evil Overhead
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:46:00 - [468]
 

Ok my two er three er bits

1) you guys explained in SiSi why 5k safespots were causing lag(for thoes who dont know if you log out in space at a safespot, the database still keeps a record of your loging and therfor "existing" in the grid because when you log back in you warp back to that grid point, and that when you scan the scan serverside looks through all posible grid cells that have Anything (even a unancored can or abandoned drone or one or both logoffski "markers" that only "exists" on the database)(reguardless of if the scan in question can actualy see them) them including the ones that are 5+kau out and have people who logofskied in that cell(reguardless of how long ago the logoffski happend), and haveing to go through all the posible grids including ones that basicaly dont realy exist anymore because the logoffski account is suspeded for whatever reason) is part of whats causing the servers to go nuts. (from what I understand they partly want to purge the ones that are from way back and partly want to make the individual system files more compact and thus faster for the system to page through when it has to do so and partly because some of the "WAY Deep space" safespots just will not be scannable AT ALL when you switch to the new database handleing)

2)If the new system is going to be limmited to the "10Au limit" for various scanning (shesh should start caling it the XAu line) then thats kind of ok but frankly I think it needs to be adjusted to have a minimum size but otherwise I dont realy have a problem with it.

3) Abitrarily deleting peoples stuff is bad buisness k, I know of several people who use the various Industrials and or carriers in deepspace logoffs to store spare gear. some of them have accounts that will not be active untill after may 18. you realy want to deal with them when you were the one who took away a carrier, 2 fitted out T3s and other items because you guys are incapable of thinking about how change will impact the players apart from "we need to do this because of the numbers we are seeing RIGHT NOW?


Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:55:00 - [469]
 

Originally by: Driven Marcelli
1) you guys explained in SiSi why 5k safespots were causing lag(for thoes who dont know if you log out in space at a safespot, the database still keeps a record of your loging and therfor "existing" in the grid because when you log back in you warp back to that grid point, and that when you scan the scan serverside looks through all posible grid cells that have Anything (even a unancored can or abandoned drone or one or both logoffski "markers" that only "exists" on the database)(reguardless of if the scan in question can actualy see them) them including the ones that are 5+kau out and have people who logofskied in that cell(reguardless of how long ago the logoffski happend), and haveing to go through all the posible grids including ones that basicaly dont realy exist anymore because the logoffski account is suspeded for whatever reason) is part of whats causing the servers to go nuts. (from what I understand they partly want to purge the ones that are from way back and partly want to make the individual system files more compact and thus faster for the system to page through when it has to do so and partly because some of the "WAY Deep space" safespots just will not be scannable AT ALL when you switch to the new database handleing)

Now THAT is an explanation you can understand as a good reason for doing the nerf!

However, people in ships should not have their ships destroyed. They should simply be moved in-system at the sun.

Driven Marcelli
Minmatar
Evil Overhead
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:58:00 - [470]
 

Originally by: Crystal Starbreeze
I have scanned out lost fighters 700AU from the system successfully with deep space scanners.

1500au - 2000au.

!
Just a hint, but they are planning on nerfing long range scanners to the XAu limmit because of the performance hit caused by forceing the system to actualy search the database for every possible item that either has created a grid or might trigger the creation of a grid (ie logoffski points)


Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2010.04.13 20:02:00 - [471]
 

Seriously, everyone who has never created a deep safe spot before STOP complaining that this will destroy your sandbox "feeling", you won't notice this change at all.

To everyone else, lets just face it, even if DSS's are useful, helps against lag, bla bla bla:
Does logging in and out in the middle of warp until you're so far away that you don't show up on the solarsystem map feel like something that is working as intended?

Driven Marcelli
Minmatar
Evil Overhead
Posted - 2010.04.13 20:03:00 - [472]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Driven Marcelli

Poof! scroll up if you realy must know

Now THAT is an explanation you can understand as a good reason for doing the nerf!

However, people in ships should not have their ships destroyed. They should simply be moved in-system at the sun.
I agree but I also disagree, Personaly I think your stuff should be dumped to whereever your respawn point is at.

ZergRushJohnny
Ch3mic4l Warfare
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2010.04.13 20:06:00 - [473]
 

War Kitten: You are wrong on several points. First, the sandbox has not always had limits. At one point you could warp to another system, I believe at another you could edit bookmark coordinates. You could scan down fighters that would disappear hundreds of AU away. NONE of these are in direct line between two warpable points. Therefor we have not -always- been limited by two/from lines.

With the current system you can create multiple deep safes and then create deep safes between those. Given the time and planning you can land on any grid anywhere in space, not just in straight lines. So we still aren't limited in space.

This nerf will change that, we will truely be limited to the "rooms connected by little doors". To me this isn't removing a small thing. Detrimental to the game? In its current "you can't find me" form maybe, but instead make a way for players to find things, this would be expanding the game, not shrinking it's rules. Tell me how that would be a bad thing?

As for your deep space probe argument, it's not a BPO production point of view. It's the fact that most systems are not 256AU+ in diameter, so why use them anymore? It becomes a 15 day skill that nobody will ever use again (ok, maybe in the 1% of systems over 250AU, but even these can probably be covered by 7 combat probes).

Assuming that *****ing motivates people to fix something? Probably the only thing you are right on. Complaining (for those wondering what all the *'s were) probably won't make them fix anything. However, when the people complaining are the ones paying for the game it would be a good idea to listen to them and find out where most complaining is coming from. You don't fix something nobody has an issue with, you fix the things they think are problems.

And last point, you said that this would help "clean up space" and help with lag and bookmark database. The bookmarks haven't been an issue since warp to 0 was fixed. Nothing in the dev blog addresses lag, it's stated that these points have become "nigh-on impossible to locate." and "creates a division between older "haves" and newer "have-nots"", suggesting that that is the reason for the fix. I don't think this will help with lag, if it does CCP would have posted that, seeing as what a big issue it is.

Again, instead of limiting us, how about doing something like THIS to expand space and our sandbox. I don't see how limiting anything is a good idea. I guess if you think more rules and limits are a good thing then we'll never see eye to eye.

Klam
Amarr
FACTS on EVE
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2010.04.13 20:12:00 - [474]
 

Edited by: Klam on 13/04/2010 20:35:49
Edited by: Klam on 13/04/2010 20:15:01
Edited by: Klam on 13/04/2010 20:12:39
Deep safes were a broken game mechanic that they have been trying to fix for quite some time.

The intention was that to avoid scan detection in a system you cloak up, not just move out of any Scan Probe's range.

This has also been misinterpreted by some as all safe spots that aren't within 10au of a celestial. Invalidating mid system safes. ... that is the wrong interpretation. This post is for those with the wrong interpretation.... Not a discussion about the pro and cons of the actual situation.

It will just invalidate safe spots that are extremely far from the center of a system.  To remain valid bookmarks must be within a certain distance of the sun.  That distance is variable per system. It is 10au+ the distance from the sun to the furthest celstial object in the system. If the furthest planet from the sun is 26au ... then all bookmarks must be within 26au + 10au = 36au.

I mocked up the following example in Chaven... it's a rather small system, but it should hopefully shed some light on this. This is not to perfect scale, it is just a visual aid.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4708/newsafespots.jpg
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

This is not a nerf to the general concepts of safe spots away from celestials and off-axis safe spots for gates.  It just nerfs the unscanable ranges for safe spots.  A standard safe spot is still far safer then warping directly to a celstial.  It just prevents someone from sitting afk in one 23 hours a day.










Vestus Regula
The Black Dawn Gang
High Treason Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.13 20:14:00 - [475]
 

I don't like this at all; not only it'll make the lag issue that much worse (by removing one of the few ways of working around it), it'll also make the game a bit more dull by reducing its possibilities.

DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2010.04.13 20:17:00 - [476]
 

1. Iam talking about player creativity. If there is one thing eve players are it is creative and productive. This meathod was created by players, developed by players. It isnt a bug the game acted exactly as they designed it when you log off in warp. The process that happen was not a bug or a cheat it was mechanics period. So if the devs didnt create it then it doesnt belong. honestly CCp i would be proud of the eve player base we took your game and used it in the manner you wanted.

2. Think about it we have all wondered if there was a cap on that nebula way out there. How far could we really go. We all loved the fact or at least imagined that this game was endless. A eve player found away to go out past those boundries and expand the sandbox and now we are being told no space has limits which honestly sucks. Honestly making these spots was alot of fun and really didnt hurt much in the end.

3. You should reward us for being creative not punish us and take it away. hell i would put the guy on pay roll who first foundout about this. I can remebr nathan saying this once " we are about giving the players the tools to create and sitting back and watching what you guys can do" well you gave the tools to warp past the limits of warpable space and into real unexplored space to bad you couldnt use this and put stuff out at 10000 au for players to go find and have fun like artifacts and such from the joves. O'well just reel us in and put us all back in the box and kill what was by far the most harmless fun we the players have ever found in this game on our own.



Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.04.13 20:20:00 - [477]
 

Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Originally by: Zaknussem

OK, fair enough. When are you going to fix other similar situations in EvE, like T2 BPOs for example?


Go buy one and stop whining.


That was propably his point. Bookmarks can be copied and sold much easier than T2 BPOs, so if CCP allows the more meaningful advantage that T2 BPOs gives to persist, why would legacy bookmarks cause issues. They propably wouldn't cause much. Sounds to me like they are using the "won't someone please think of the children" -excuse to justify something they wanted to do anyway.

Darth Jihad
Posted - 2010.04.13 20:22:00 - [478]
 

Edited by: Darth Jihad on 13/04/2010 20:25:04
CCP, please ignore the people whining in this thread.

This change will finally set the mechanics of the game back to how it was intended. Everyone who is caught with the purge is lucky to only have their ship destroyed, as creating this safes requires that they use exploits! I've witnessed slow warping ships evade concord by deagressing, by warping to a very deep safe.

Good change CCP. *thumbs up*

wizard87
Posted - 2010.04.13 20:22:00 - [479]
 

This creates a division between older "haves" and newer "have-nots": as a new player coming into the game, the only way you'd be able to reach points outside the system proper would be to acquire a bookmark from an older player.

Same thing regarding T2 BPOs.... Remove them.

Meno Theaetetus
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.04.13 20:26:00 - [480]
 

Edited by: Meno Theaetetus on 13/04/2010 20:30:08
So you released this bomb shell, at the end of the day and then you all just went home, awesome customer service.

Let me just sum things up for you CCP, don't get me wrong EVE is a great game, it try's to be far more than any crappy MMO out there. The crucial word being try's there. I don't intend to be harsh but that's why most of us love the game, when you start as a noobie in empire your not playing because you love you frigate, destroyer, etc your playing because your imagining not only the big shiny capital ships you could one day fly, or the billions of isk you may once smear all over your **genitalia of choice** It's because you imagine that as technology gets better the game will grow, maybe this game WILL become the sci fi emulator that you speak off. When I first started playing this game I imagined that one day we could walk around stations, walk around even our ships, move from one ship to another in a realistic way, perhaps damage would become more realistic, etc, etc, basic progressions on the same theme, I mean when I first started playing the game and someone mentioned you could build your own station, I was like, OMG THATS FREAKING AWESOME, 3-4 months later, I was like, are you freaking kidding me, this stick in a bubble is my station.

The reality.

7 years down the line, what do we have, better looking ships granted, they are very well done and pretty, better looking planets, again awesome, but has the game advanced in any noticeable way? not really.

Rant aside, I know that this deep safe thing is not really related to this directly, I just want to point out the dangers of this mentality you seem to be in. As a business model I'm sure you have to perpetuate this idea to new and old players that the game is going to progress in a good way. as people have stated reducing the space, setting rules on the sandbox is only going make players think, well maybe this game is never going to progress to where I envisioned, perhaps it is always going to be this, I'm a spaceship lol, my missiles come from model origin, lol, my guns hit the model at origin 0,0, lol I got killed from lag, lol, I can fly though stations lol, oh look my ship is inside another ship lol, space ship game.

I know that your not going sell many new subscriptions from fixing and improving the old stuff, and that rebuilding large parts of the engine is costly but your going to have to do it, otherwise all its going to take is someone else to rebuild an engine from scratch and release a new game, they will capture peoples imaginations and they will then put there faith in someone else to release the game we all want to be playing.

Just as footnote, guys who are claiming that we are ranting because we don't understand, we do understand 10 au past the furthest celestial body from the sun yeah yeah yeah we get that, that point will form a spherical barrier beyond which all will be doomed to oblivion and will become un book-markable, we understand that and its still a problem due to the lag/mechanics problems stated in all these posts.

edit- oh look my sig just got nerfed, cute.


Pages: first : previous : ... 12 13 14 15 [16] 17 18 19 20 ... : last (28)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only