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Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.04.04 00:15:00 - [151]
 

Functions of processors are really messed up:
1) Processor should start a production when quantity of needed thing in its storage is exactly as many as he need or more.
2) Processor should not destroy any goods
3) At least it should be possible to expedit transder from proccesor (it is impossible now it just don't work)

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.04 03:49:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 04/04/2010 03:50:16
Originally by: Trimutius III
1) Processor should start a production when quantity of needed thing in its storage is exactly as many as he need or more.

Why are those processor times are that big anyways?
Server-side thing?

I mean they could:

For lvl1 produce 1 unit of output, start with just 300 units in their storage and have a cycle time of 90 seconds..

For lvl2 produce 1 unit of output, start with just 8 units each of the preproducts in their storage and have a cycle time of 360 seconds..

For lvl3 produce 1 unit of output, start with just 3 or 4 units each of the preproducts in their storage and have a cycle time of 1200 seconds..

Why you ask?
Cause now the processor has to wait until 6000 units of the stuff piled up before he starts with processing. If the cycle times were lower it would start earlier and considering the enduring rescanning and rerouting I really would prefer that I get a feedback as fast as possible, not 30+ mins later.

Orephia
Posted - 2010.04.04 05:04:00 - [153]
 

Because the OP said that Oursulaert was 'seeded with "proper" data', I flew (many jumps) there to test. Now (after one DT) almost all my Oursulaert planets will not load, those Command Centers are now wasted. But for the first day I was able to see what properly seeded data means for high sec PI endeavors (& I found similar data in other high sec systems, where the planets had non-zero resource levels)...

Scanning for Heavy Metals (avg. units/cycle): sec 0.6 ~15, sec 0.3 ~140, sec 0.0 ~250

So, if these values are representative, the resource levels in high sec are so low, relative to the rest of Eve, that it is simply not worth bothering, even if the UI issues that make setting up and maintaining a PI infrastructure are improved. Looks more like yet another attempt to lure (force?) rookie players into lowsec to feed the lonely piwates. And it seems this will make 0.0 alliances much less dependent upon the Empire market for importing POS fuels, so what little may be made in high sec PI will have even less market value.

With how involved it (still) is to set up all the routes, how quickly the deposits exhaust, and the necessity to unbuild & recreate the whole network every 8 hours (since the foreman refuses to cooperate with a simple rescan), coupled with the low yields in Empire, I can't see this working. The resource amounts need to be less stratified between system security levels, the deposit lifetimes need to be increased, & the UI for setting it all up & maintaining it still needs refinement - in particular:
  • The 'evil autozoom' isn't really gone, the requirement to doubleclick to set the route means that if you miss the pin by a hair, you doubleclick the planet surface & the lurking autozoom reveals its ongoing nuisance
  • The links are nearly impossible to see on ice planets, the color scans are near invisible on planets with low resource levels (almost all high sec planets) and what can be seen is very difficult to assess with the planetary terrain shading in the background. And the scanner reliably stops working after a few uses and needs a relog to come back
  • Having to remember the max value for the route is a giant leap backwards, it *seriously* needs to be the auto-default

As far as being able to see other players' installations, unless there is some sort of regional grid provision to apportion territory it should be clear that every player that is able to utilize the scanner is going to put their production system in the middle of the highest yielding spot on the planet, & all everyone is going to see is a mountain of pins at that location. Good luck working with that.

Thing is, I really like this, & want it to work. Improvements have been made, but this isn't it yet.


stuck again
Posted - 2010.04.04 06:21:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Orephia


So, if these values are representative, the resource levels in high sec are so low, relative to the rest of Eve, that it is simply not worth bothering, even if the UI issues that make setting up and maintaining a PI infrastructure are improved. Looks more like yet another attempt to lure (force?) rookie players into lowsec to feed the lonely piwates. And it seems this will make 0.0 alliances much less dependent upon the Empire market for importing POS fuels, so what little may be made in high sec PI will have even less market value.




Why would CCP make resource levels on planets in high sec be any different from those on planets in low-sec. I know I am in danger of expecting EVE to be too much of a simulation, but surely the planets were created far in advance of beings settling in the systems and effectively deciding their security status. There may be factors that decide the resource levels on different planets but security status should not be one of them.

Hyarion Yara
Posted - 2010.04.04 07:14:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: stuck again

Why would CCP make resource levels on planets in high sec be any different from those on planets in low-sec. I know I am in danger of expecting EVE to be too much of a simulation, but surely the planets were created far in advance of beings settling in the systems and effectively deciding their security status. There may be factors that decide the resource levels on different planets but security status should not be one of them.


Based on the currently seeded planets the quantity of resources is not entirely based on sec status. I went into a class 1 wh (0.0 sec) where there's 10 planets. Of the 10 planets only 2 have high resources - bars are 90-95% full on scanner - 3 of them have no resources and the rest the bars are only 5-10% full.

As I see it, the drawback of the high-sec systems is that regardless of the initial resources on the planet, the number of people using the planet is going to result in the resources dropping very quickly.

This does all largely depends on how the resources work. Do they replenish at a set rate during DT - like ore belts - or do they stay at the same sizes indefinately? My testing has not been able to change the location/size of resources so far, not noticable at least.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.04.04 10:37:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Hyarion Yara
This does all largely depends on how the resources work. Do they replenish at a set rate during DT - like ore belts - or do they stay at the same sizes indefinately? My testing has not been able to change the location/size of resources so far, not noticable at least.


It could easily be abundancy rather than available quantity.

Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.04.04 11:21:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Hyarion Yara
Based on the currently seeded planets the quantity of resources is not entirely based on sec status. I went into a class 1 wh (0.0 sec) where there's 10 planets.
Read the OP again, only a handful of planets in all of EVE are seeded with how they want the resources to be.

Orephia
Posted - 2010.04.04 14:23:00 - [158]
 

The OP said that the Oursulaert system (0.9) was one of the few with "final distribution values". All of the planets in that system have extremely low resource levels. Even the lava planet, a giant ball of molten rock, has almost no felsic magma.

Solo Hawk
Posted - 2010.04.04 17:22:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Orephia
The OP said that the Oursulaert system (0.9) was one of the few with "final distribution values". All of the planets in that system have extremely low resource levels. Even the lava planet, a giant ball of molten rock, has almost no felsic magma.


Well you can't expect every single planet in the EVE universe to have high resource levels.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.04.04 19:22:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Camios on 04/04/2010 19:24:10
As someone pointed before me, ROUTING is very awkward.

Now it's actually strange how routing works. For example if I route 200 unit to a processor from a storage unit, the storage unit will ignore my setting and put all the resources coming from the extractors in route to my processor.


I was trying to give a detailed feedback, but I will resume it so

-it's not clear how it works
-it works in a quite strange way.

I would have liked to watch it more closely, but most of planet in FD-MLJ are not accessible right now, and that's the worst thing for testing.


And in my opinion, it's better to delay tyrannis to when PI will be actually working and complete.

Mocam
Posted - 2010.04.04 20:25:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Orephia
The OP said that the Oursulaert system (0.9) was one of the few with "final distribution values". All of the planets in that system have extremely low resource levels. Even the lava planet, a giant ball of molten rock, has almost no felsic magma.


A quick question: If 90 people are hitting that planet, won't the resource meter show lower than if only 1 person is hitting it? This I don't know and that kind of dynamics would seem fairly important to someone looking to find a planet to harvest from.

Also, Oursulaert is a trade hub. I'd imagine trade hubs, as busy as they are, will have trash for resources on the planets to avoid lag issues and the like from folks cluttering them up.

So they make available a few high resource locations as well as one or two really low resource systems for folks to move around and sample against. If this is the case, Oursulaert would naturally fall in the low end of the spectrum.

Horchan
Gallente
Posted - 2010.04.04 21:53:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Mocam
A quick question: If 90 people are hitting that planet, won't the resource meter show lower than if only 1 person is hitting it? This I don't know and that kind of dynamics would seem fairly important to someone looking to find a planet to harvest from.

Currently, no. But who knows what the next build will change...

What Trigger
Posted - 2010.04.05 01:12:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: What Trigger on 05/04/2010 01:51:56
Ok for those That want to split stacks in the expedited transfer order page. Hold down shift when you click add it then asks you how much to transfer.

Leona StarFiner
Posted - 2010.04.05 01:42:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Orephia
and the necessity to unbuild & recreate the whole network every 8 hours (since the foreman refuses to cooperate with a simple rescan), coupled with the low yields in Empire, I can't see this working.


For me it scans again 1-2 hours after depletion. But not immidiately...


Quote:

Thing is, I really like this, & want it to work. Improvements have been made, but this isn't it yet.



I made a whole bunch of work for several days just too receive few items of POS Fuel (2 planets got stuck, and problems with processors aren't good anyways)
I hope that soon at least alpha will be ready... it's month and a half to go no really many days left actually...

Agent Unknown
Caldari
Posted - 2010.04.05 02:20:00 - [165]
 

Please seed the other PCCs with the next build...having all of them blown up by someone who can't follow simple rules is no fun. Evil or Very Mad

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.05 02:49:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
Functions of processors are really messed up:
1) Processor should start a production when quantity of needed thing in its storage is exactly as many as he need or more. ...

I think this mechanic works similarly to POS reaction chains - just we don't see the cycle counter for the POSoP (CCP probably used the same backend for this - 'submit' buttons are another hint for this).

If we look at how POS work in this regard, the cycle is bound to the minute you did switch your tower online the first time. So, lets say you put your tower online at 03:42.. then your POS will cycle every hour at the 42th minute and also any reaction at the POS will happen then.

Seems to be the same with POSoP processors. We naturally don't get a fuel-warning mail for this, so it's hard to say when the cycle hits.
As the processor can only start if there's enough material in the storage the start of the cycle can only be triggered after the needed limits are reached.
So much for now.. cycling start of processors seems not to be bound to PCC installation minute.

@CCP:
Can we please get the HUD visible when in planetary view mode and are actually in space with our ship?
I'm feeling like a sitting duck atmo. It's also easier to access cargo this way, as over the fitting window.

If we're docked and go into planetary view mode it's ok, to be without controls.. but not when I'm in space..

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.05 03:05:00 - [167]
 

Another thing to mention.. I'm used to see just a black screen during a session change. Try this:

- be in station
- open planetary view over your sci&indy window
- have a PIN selected, so that you see the spinning model of it and it's status window
- undock
- ...

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.05 04:12:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 05/04/2010 05:49:13

Processor cycle time xx:mm depends on the schematic submit for the processor and seems to be checked every 30minutes after that (at least for lvl1 schematics).

Example:
PCC + processor + extractor installed, xx:19
all links set up, xx:20
material for extraction selected (source with 230u/min), xx:20
schematic submitted, xx:21
final submit for setting up the routes at xx:23,
storage in processor will show 6,210u at xx:48,
processor starts processing at xx:51

If you do any modifications to your planetary setup which involves a 'submit' any materials in a cycle will be lost.. stored material will be ok.

So if you got not enough input for the processor it will look like it's behaving erratically.
For example you got 6 extractors running with 31u/min each.. 186u/min all in all.. this means your processor won't have the needed 200u/min for each of his 30min cycles. This setup will start it's first cycle 1hour after you submit the schematic, though there will already be enough material in the processor after 33 minutes.
This means you will see the processor 'waiting for materials' for 27 minutes, although there is more than 6000 units in its storage already.

@CCP:
It might be good to get another visual for the timeframe between 'enough material in storage' and 'cycle moment'.. similar to POS reactors, like "process starting up".

Even better naturally would be to finally get a count down which shows us when the next cycle will be due!

Orephia
Posted - 2010.04.05 06:40:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: stuck again
Why would CCP make resource levels on planets in high sec be any different from those on planets in low-sec.

Guessing the 'story' that supports it: these npc products already on the market have been in production in Empire all along, and the remaining resources on highsec planets are getting thin. Out in lowsec there has been less population/development/consumption & so levels are still considerably higher. Further beyond in the vast empty nullsec regions planetary resources remain relatively virgin.

Lowsec planetary ops producing raw and low tier products can be managed from highsec, and picking up the cans from low orbit seems safe enough, but even using blockade runners getting in & out past the camps on a daily basis will be a risk. So it seems it is also about throwing the campers a lovebone and encouraging more player migration out to less congested regions. PI in wh & 0.0 ftw.

Ships stopping at the cargo links full of freight in lowsec look like easy pickins; higher tier production using imported products kinda makes more sense in highsec with Concord protecting component deliveries, but the suicide gankers will know a fat load has come in. If only those deliveries can make it out of lowsec thru the camps, since the resource levels in highsec are abysmal, & then past the gankers, this might be profitable for the patient few. Should be great fun for all tho. Especially pirates & transport sellers.

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2010.04.05 06:56:00 - [170]
 

The Processors aren't processing right.

I like the transfer form, very professional, like an actual electronic MA. Makes me all nostalgic for the clerking.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.05 07:11:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Kanatta Jing
The Processors aren't processing right.

Any details or did you just not understand the cycle-concept behind it? (see two posts above yours)

Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
Posted - 2010.04.05 14:44:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 05/04/2010 14:48:17
Since I updated my Sisi clients for the mass test, I decided to give this a shot, here is my feedback:

- UI controls are confusing, took me like 2 hrs to realize a "Submit" button was hidden behind local chat Rolling Eyes, I hope the plan is to have all these PI options in its own dockable window.

- My biggest complaint is the scanner overlay on a planet with low resources, it is impossible to see resource concentrations in planets with very low levels. I spent hours switching between filters on different areas of a planet to detect the subtle change of color, but even with max graphics I was unable to see in some planets such as Lava. Maybe showing planet as empty sphere - like scanning probe spheres - when in scan mode?

- Will we be able to move command center?, maybe a little warning before placing it that we better scan first and make sure we are placing it close to resource extraction areas?. In general everybody trying this for first time is going to put the command center in the wrong place having to build very long links to bring the stuff to it

- There should be a way to move source materials out of processors, I tried expedite but it did nothing and got no error message

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2010.04.05 14:57:00 - [173]
 

something to consider:

  • It is likely that cycle/depletion/whatever times are shortened compared to the planned TQ values to get more/better test results. At this stage it's the functionality that's being tested- balancing will be done later when they've worked out the effort required.


  • PI hasn't yet been linked to any skills (AFAIK), so PG etc may be affected once this has been done.


My votes:
separate PI window- definately
Greyscale planet when scanning- definately (or any other mechanism to improve visibility)

Jack bubu
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.04.05 17:49:00 - [174]
 

So any ETA when the stuck planets will be fixed? its kinda hard to test when the planets dont load :P

Mocam
Posted - 2010.04.05 19:15:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Glyken Touchon
something to consider:

  • It is likely that cycle/depletion/whatever times are shortened compared to the planned TQ values to get more/better test results. At this stage it's the functionality that's being tested- balancing will be done later when they've worked out the effort required.


  • PI hasn't yet been linked to any skills (AFAIK), so PG etc may be affected once this has been done.


My votes:
separate PI window- definately
Greyscale planet when scanning- definately (or any other mechanism to improve visibility)



There are a lot of things that are off right now so this makes sense.

One thing I've noticed is how production vs collection will probably work out.

You'll extract from resource rich planets and produce on resource poor planets with cargo lifts (where you can).

Reason: PG and CPU constraints. You'll want to maximize the use of your complex so you'll collect where collecting is good and produce where collecting is worthless.

As such, both types of planets (high resource concentrations as well as low concentrations) will have value.

The biggest "long term" problem I see is the gank factor in highsec. Find a production planet with a cargo lift, setup a camp there and nail folks as they fly in to loot their end-products. That's more "sitting duck" factor than you get at gate camps and trade hubs being as they have to fly in, pick up the container then fly out. A quick scan and you can easily determine if the cargo is worth blowing them up for. No '30 sec invulnerability', etc... Flat out "sitting ducks".

As such, lowsec and nullsec may prove far better places to produce things than highsec. Popping a ship bringing in resources to a manufacturing facility will be little different than popping a miner type filled with ore but popping a ship picking up products? ...

Being as planets are shared resources by many, the popular spots will be highsec systems, near hubs, that have cargo lifts. Those will be the premium locations to setup process complexes and where piracy types will have the advantage...

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2010.04.05 22:59:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Mocam

The biggest "long term" problem I see is the gank factor in highsec. Find a production planet with a cargo lift, setup a camp there and nail folks as they fly in to loot their end-products. That's more "sitting duck" factor than you get at gate camps and trade hubs being as they have to fly in, pick up the container then fly out. A quick scan and you can easily determine if the cargo is worth blowing them up for. No '30 sec invulnerability', etc... Flat out "sitting ducks".



This is not a problem, this is essential to making sure that planetary interaction isn't just for industrialists like myself.

FroeverTrade
Posted - 2010.04.05 23:27:00 - [177]
 

For all the "Sitting Ducks"

You don't have to be sat at a planet to access its planet view, sit in a POS and do it?;

Dont have a POS, Go learn to Cloak.

Mocam
Posted - 2010.04.06 03:48:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: FroeverTrade
For all the "Sitting Ducks"

You don't have to be sat at a planet to access its planet view, sit in a POS and do it?;

Dont have a POS, Go learn to Cloak.


That's management of the planet, not collecting items from it.

Eventually you'll need to take what you have made at planetary locations and move them. To do this, the planetary control center sends a container into space where you fly in and pick it up.

This is the "sitting duck" factor. When you pick up your finished product to take it to market.

Mocam
Posted - 2010.04.06 03:59:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Mocam on 06/04/2010 04:00:24
Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
Originally by: Mocam

The biggest "long term" problem I see is the gank factor in highsec. Find a production planet with a cargo lift, setup a camp there and nail folks as they fly in to loot their end-products. That's more "sitting duck" factor than you get at gate camps and trade hubs being as they have to fly in, pick up the container then fly out. A quick scan and you can easily determine if the cargo is worth blowing them up for. No '30 sec invulnerability', etc... Flat out "sitting ducks".



This is not a problem, this is essential to making sure that planetary interaction isn't just for industrialists like myself.


If you're an industrialist then you know that's a closed area for new people. The ME research in all empire space is booked weeks to months out. No new person is going to wait weeks or months to see how that process works so that's for veteran players and those with time and resources to see how it goes.

The planetary interaction is new. As such, having the pickup point for final production so easily located and camped in such a way that the manufacturer will easily be targeted, scanned and popped... Thus an ugly factor for newer people far more than for senior industrialists. You can afford to ignore this area and focus on the industrial side you know. You can also afford to lose a few hundred million and shrug it off. So can I on the ISK side. A newer person...

So having what appears to offer the potential of making "jita camps" low income camp sites that take far more work... Think about it.

You can't send anything to a planet surface that doesn't have a cargo lift at it so cargo lifts = production sites. That eliminates chasing "miner's ore" shippers. Now it's just scan any ships that come to the planet and you found a target. They'll warp to, get the can and warp out but the entire transaction is done in space so as soon as they show up, you target and start scanning cargo. You have the lock, now it's just do you pop or not based upon the value? 10km3 cargo can be blasted to space per PCC transaction...

Again, this issue won't bother industrialists with fat wallets and knowing what and how to operate. They may not even find this worth pursuing if they're into BPO/BPC production (far less hands-on work involved in that. This stuff will require pretty close to daily checking across multiple planets). It will mess with newer folks far more and this is why I put the info out here.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.06 08:32:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Mocam
Waah waah waah, noobs have it harder than veterans, thats unfair.. waah waah waah..


1)
type:			all:	High:	Low:	Null:	W-space:

Planet (Gas) 23754 3140 3199 9870 7545
Planet (Ice) 11251 1589 1470 4690 3502
Planet (Storm) 8592 1407 1116 3395 2674
Planet (Barren) 8036 1064 1032 3343 2597
Planet (Temperate) 6939 1062 912 2911 2054
Planet (Lava) 6473 795 872 2804 2002
Planet (Oceanic) 1256 171 168 511 406
Planet (Plasma) 943 127 131 386 299
Planet (Shattered) 9 0 1 6 2

sum 67253 9355 8901 27916 21081

..should be enough planets in high sec for noobs to test this (9.3k).

2) In comparison the number of major hubs, where veterans, who prey on noobs can hang out and pop them repeteadly for their cargo..
10?
20?
Even if it where 100..
See the difference?
And that is PRESENT!

3) In high sec, the stuff you will be able to make from PI is a joke compared to nullsec (10x higher abundancy of sources). So, if you want to eat the cake, MAKE it, go to low/null/w-space and HTFU.


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