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Kirk Atreides
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:15:00 - [691]

I am not so bothered about how the insurance is calculated as long as it is reasonable, because then I can decide on what level of insurance cover (if any) based on the stated price / reimbursment. What I don't like, however, is paying an insurance premium that promises me 75M ISK if my ship is lost - losing a PVP fight - then finding that CCP have changed the rules retrospectively and only being reimbused 48M ISK. If you change the rules it should be for contracts going forward - NOT for contracts already issued. Evil or Very Mad

Posted - 2010.05.28 13:39:00 - [692]

First i wanna say if it isnt clear sometimes what i mean, but english is not my primry language.. ;)

i only gonna talk about the loot changes cause insurance dont affect me as i see no point in paying that much money for this short periods only to run missions, what is the only thing im actually doing to get my money.
I dont have much Accounts and stuff but changes affect everybody, so heres the voice of an poor lvl 3 missionrunner :)

Basically what im doing is running my missions and looting/salvaging...
Most of my Corpmates are blitzing lvl 4 missions without looting because they get more ISK/hour if they skip the loot/salvage part.
In lvl 4 missions that might work, but if you look at lvl 3.. no way to make more money with blitzing i think. i got an 9.6 standing to amarr navy and running theyr best agent with an effective quality at 48, i got my social skills only on 3 but ok..
basic income of my security agent is 325k + 325k time reward and like 400 LP for an mission that takes in my fully t2 fittet drake about 30minutes.
generally it doesnt matter what im buying for the LP to make money of, i always get like 1000 isk per LP if i sell it to buyorders (which im mostly doing).
that means i get around 750k Isk per 30min min blized mission, wich makes 1,5mill a hour.
thats likely poor i think...
the way im doing is to run the mission, and loot/salvage afterwards with my harbinger fittet with beams and salvagern (4/4 style) salvage tackles and mwd.
for an 2 pocket mission that takes around 15-20 min, depending on average number of wrecks and distance between them.
mostly im getting an full cargohold, and as i like to know what i have im checking my loot before unloading everytime.
before tyrannis i had like 400m3 in modules only(no ammo and ****). mostly meta 0 items but every single mission i had an minimum of 8 meta items.. never ever i had less.. i definatly know that!
splitting the loot in sell category means for me:

meta 0 items: like 400k overall
meta X items: sometimes bad, but sometimes i get good stuff too.. like an named cruiser mwd worth 10mill.
average should be around 750k per mission in meta stuff.
Salvage parts: around 500k per mission is most likely less then it actually is worth really but ok.

makes for me an average of 1,65mill isk per looted mission.
reward + lp + loot makes 2,4mill isk per 50min-60min. thats near an million isk/hour more then what i get if i blitz the missions...
that was before tyrannis was deployed...

now lets review what i noticed so far. same mission had an average of 40 wrecks and only 9 of them contained loot! WTF? before tyrannis 5 of them contained NO loot and not it switched completely? yeah nice... -.- but ok, i remember there was an CCP guy stating "the loot that will be taken out in meta 0 items will be replaced with tags and other stuff like scrapmetal while the meta X loot will stay the same." so i thought.. well less loot but with higher quality might recover that...
after looting/salvaging i noticed that i only hab 65m3 of loot inside.. what the heck?
there were 8 meta 0 items, 2(TWO!!!) meta x items and some ammo...
i was really ****ed, but i thought it could have had bad luck, so i went to get another mission...
after like 60 missions till now, i could clearly state: that was no bad luck.. generally MASSIVE ****
i have some lol for "there will be the same amount of meta X items" and some rofl for "meta 0 will be replaced with bla bla..".
in my first 16 missions after tyrannis deployment i looted 33 meta X items who are worth on the market like 2 mill all together and 3 pirate tags.
where the hell are my meta items? hiding behind moons? where are my promised pirate tags? i didnt collect ANYTHING unusual..
you promised to replace and balance and ****.. but if you leave it as it is right now you really ****ed up the looting missionrunners, as blitzing will return a better isk/hour ratio now.
to be continued...

Posted - 2010.05.28 13:56:00 - [693]

... here we go

if so and 50% of the missionrunners(that are actually looting) will give up on looting and turn to blitz the missions, you ****ed up the whole rig building economy as they will loose 50% of their ressource.
along with this, the market is loosing meta items like hell, wich prevents noobs of fitting relative good non t2 ships...
arlabest heavy missile launchers are atm at 14,5mill.. imagine how they will increase then too..
at the same time you will loose more of the minerals who are gathered by missionrunners from reprocessing meta 0 stuff wich turns the reprocessing minerals to about 10% of pre tyrannis gathering.
even if you implement pirate tags i wont loot as they would be ****ty ones for 10isk in lvl 3 missions and if you implement scrapmetal it would be a punch in the face as it its volume is too big to carry much and its price is meh.. on top its only a source of tritanium and the reason why you changed the loot tables is cause there should be less minerals gathered from loot.

missionrunners who are looting are ****ed up completely.. the lower the lvl of the missions the more losses in percentage you will have from this... i tried some lvl 1 and 2.. thats not even the half i would expect to gain from them..
new players would have to deal with less icome from missions and higher prices in all aspects right now...
good job at balancing ccp..
enough ranting for today... i beg you to do some REAL changes to make looting rentable


Sue Zuki
Posted - 2010.05.28 23:28:00 - [694]

Insurance - 3 months, please make this the life of the ship or 1 year.

I never buy insurance now because if you have the ship for more than a year then it's cheaper not to buy insurance.

Please make insurance last longer, otherwise it's only good for risky piloting (or noobs or pvpers), but no good for missioners, builders, miners, traders etc.

Cheesey McAltface
Posted - 2010.05.29 09:48:00 - [695]

Edited by: Cheesey McAltface on 29/05/2010 09:49:03
This new loot system is great! Where I used to get, Say 1400mm artilleries I now get 1 metal scrap and 100 of random ammo, it's not worth picking up the loot now...

Edit: posted with wrong character again...

The Colonial Forces
Posted - 2010.05.30 01:21:00 - [696]

Posted - 2010.06.02 22:38:00 - [697]

sry Chronotis, but are u serious about what you are writing? it is ok to say: hey mining sucks, it should be rewarded better then missioning (which sucks as much, but that's another side of the coin). so you mission runners: live with it: you'll get less.

thats 100% fine with me. like this it would be clear and straight forward.

but to say: there are several sources for minerals. one is reprocessing of loot (wich is not intended that way). we will nerf the loot to make harvesting the primary source of minerals. (sound logic up to that point)

but now our poor dev gets a bit tired it seems:
as missioning is only the source of roughly about 30% of the minerals and that beeing harshly reduced by the nerf (lets assume to about 5-10%) how could that raise the money we get from the minerals on the market?

so it sounds like Chronotis is having a bit of a problem too...

or how can he write:
"Whilst this will reduce one of the secondary incomes from NPC combat initially, this is weighted against all the potential rewards of NPC combat activity. With less overall mineral supply, the lower quantity of minerals still possible from loot reprocessing will eventually be worth more."

1. its a MAIN source of income. considering you are familiar with sites like eve-survival, did u ever check the comments stating the income from a mission?! you should do.

2. as we are (stated in the first part of chrontis article) only part of the "minerals generating community" which had a share of roughly 30% (ccp statistics), I'd like to know how the lowering of that share to roughly(assumed) 8% could have a psoitive effect on the income of mission running?!

a) wouldn't that imply, that mineral prices should rise to aprox. 400% of there former value?! (that would be sound maths to me at least...)

b) (assuming eve is trying at some point to be somehow balanced)what effect would that (assumed) 400% raise in founds have on the other part of the "mineral generating community"? would these effects then be considered balanced?

--> final question: if you consider the raise of ore prices a possible solution to the nerf of the mission runner income - wouldn't that imply that the non-missioners would profit from that even more? as they are now generating 92% of the ores?

well either i'm just way to stupid to get your point (just to give the smackers a base to start from...) or you're of track logic wise. (sry) but as it seems to me, you just construct a "well you could profit from that too" nonsense!

rly a pitty!

just a few points to remember:

eve is a game - i even have to pay for it. so guess what: it's gotta be fun.
i'm a pvp noob - but thats 'bout the only thing about eve that actually is fun
earning 20M / h missioning gave me roughly 2 h of pvp - lowsec adrenaline
sounded like a good ratio... 1 : 2 h
but i'm not willing to "work" longer for that
so give me a way (not forcibly missions, as they suck like hell) to get iskies to finance that fun in an easy and relaxing way or i'm off to play something else
and no, i dont want to skill like 2 months to get my former income back.

with a declining player base and most of them beeing mission runners you should consider that. ---- maybe...

Fuel Technician
Posted - 2010.06.12 23:41:00 - [698]

My 2 cents worth on the loot "re-balancing"
I've read all the dev comments about this "improvement" to the game and their reasoning behind the changes, non of which seem to be happening since the patch.
I run lvl 4's, loot and salvage always, since the patch the value of the loot has dropped substantially, no more meta 0 lrg guns, these were worth good isk ( no CCp we were not reprocessing them! ), in fact very few weapons dropping now.
I have had an increase in meta 4 items, sounds good ehh?...until you go to sell them and see everybody has, the bottom has fallen out of the market, they are worth nothing now ( umm... you did say you'd re-balance the loot "worth" with more meta items..... it hasn't worked CCP )
An example is Y-T8 overcharged hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive, was selling for 5-7 million now is going for 100k.
While I'm still getting a whole lot of crap nobody wants, just as much as before, and guess what I'm gonna do with it all..yep reprocess it, so no gain for CCP there.
This may be an over simplified way to achieve what you wanted to do, i know you like to make things as complicated as you can, but couldn't you have just tweaked the reprocessing values for modules, making them have more wastage?

Crenshaw Dallas
Posted - 2010.06.29 14:15:00 - [699]

An example is Y-T8 overcharged hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive, was selling for 5-7 million now is going for 100k.hile I'm still getting a whole lot of crap nobody wants, just as ***

Absolutley right! This has really hurt the mission runner. The idea that we were taking everything we collected from missioning and simply hitting the reprocess button and dumping on the market is pure absurdity. Anyone willing to actually take the time to salvage and loot all the wrecks in a level 4 mission was also taking the time to carefully market the items... only the pure crap items ended up being reprocessed... the large guns were always worth more than that.

Bad change...


LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.06.29 23:43:00 - [700]

Clearly, things are not working as intended (but as predicted).

Ship prices are dropping toward new insurance fraud level. Mineral prices are following.

Something is messed up in the drop because the higher meta are dropping at a faster rate though we had been told they would not.

It is clear to me that the loot drop nerf did not drop mineral creation by NEARLY enough to match the minerals that were being removed through insurance fraud.

I see a few choices for CCP.

Let insurance fraud return (not go forward with the plan to continually re-adjust insurance payout to keep it below mineral costs).

Get serious about banning macro miners.

Fruther nerf loot drops to nothing. (not sure that will do anything as the macro miners can still oversupply the market.)

Return of NPC buy orders.

Or, possibly, let the macro miners continue until they drive mineral prices to near 0. Of course, this also lets the price of loot drop to near 0.

Jamie Banks
Quantum Horizons
Posted - 2010.07.06 09:42:00 - [701]

For all the haters who think nothing has changed.

Meta+1 loot does not reprocess to anywhere near as much minerals as Meta0.

They did 'reduce' the mineral supply from Mining with Guns. aka The whole idea of the loot nerf.

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