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cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.03.29 18:21:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:55:53
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 18:22:53
You know what I hate about missions? The poor ass rewards!
I wish to GOD CCP would make missions worth the time it takes to improve standings.
I wish that we had areas that were ONLY accessible to people with high standings where RATS and LOOTERS and others with LOW standing were NOT allowed to enter!
I want to see FACTION SPECIFIC SPACE! Space which is only accessible to the hard working, any fool with 10 million SP can go and RAT in null / low sec, they don't even have to play a single mission and the rewards of null / low sec are FAR greater then ANY mission reward has to offer.

How I see it working is after a month of grinding you can actually use loyalty points to purchase something useful, like an elite mining contract from Caldari State or Gallente or Minmatar etc. which allows you to mine for a LIMITED time an exclusive area of Caldari State space reserved for high standing individuals ONLY!!! People who rat and skip missions would not be able to access this area with low standings.

Standings don't mean squat as far as territory is concerned in EVE and I think that's just plain WRONG! It makes all the Caldari Gallente Minmatar States seem POOR compared to what corporations are making in nullsec!

Shiashi
RADIO RAMPAGE
Indecisive Certainty
Posted - 2010.03.29 19:00:00 - [2]
 

Though i personally dont have a problem with the rewards of lvl 4's, i do think this could be something rather cool to have a mining contract reward from lps that would inturn give you a bm to a site or w/e but who knows.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.03.29 19:48:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 19:49:18
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 19:48:19
the rewards of a lv 4 mission are PATHETIC when compared to ONE hour of mining arkonor in nullsec. The difference is huge, 3 million vs 25 million for the same hour of playing. Sure the risk is much much greater but a firmly entrenched alliance doesn't have to work very hard to outmine , outgun and out manufacture the highest standing people in Caldari State for example. In eve crime pays and it pays well. Standings in nullsec mean nothing!

Shiashi
RADIO RAMPAGE
Indecisive Certainty
Posted - 2010.03.29 20:10:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 19:49:18
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 19:48:19
the rewards of a lv 4 mission are PATHETIC when compared to ONE hour of mining arkonor in nullsec. The difference is huge, 3 million vs 25 million for the same hour of playing. Sure the risk is much much greater but a firmly entrenched alliance doesn't have to work very hard to outmine , outgun and out manufacture the highest standing people in Caldari State for example. In eve crime pays and it pays well. Standings in nullsec mean nothing!


3 mil an hour you must be doing it wrong lvl 4s do more than 3 mil an hour. It is true you can make much more in 0.0 but this also requires more work and more man power for the defence etc. In empire running missions you can do it by yourself casually even, with no risk. It comes down to the risk v reward factor. You want more go to 0.0 ;)

JeChecke
Posted - 2010.03.29 20:37:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 19:49:18
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 19:48:19
the rewards of a lv 4 mission are PATHETIC when compared to ONE hour of mining arkonor in nullsec. The difference is huge, 3 million vs 25 million for the same hour of playing.


By running lv4, you mean with a civilian fitted rifter ?

Ikserak tai
Posted - 2010.03.29 20:46:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Shiashi
Though i personally dont have a problem with the rewards of lvl 4's, i do think this could be something rather cool to have a mining contract reward from lps that would inturn give you a bm to a site or w/e but who knows.


^^This^^. I believe the OP has one of the more unique original ideas I've seen in a coupla years. I like it.....

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.03.29 21:40:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:48:11
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:43:22
Ok about the 3 million, am I exaggerating? No I'm not!

Not all missions are pirates, some are factions, when Caldari State sends you to kill Gallente ships, which means no REWARDS for destroying a BS but hey you get a useless tag right??? etc....
but lets stick to the Pirate model. Let's say you're running Angel Extravaganza, great mission right? Lots of BS kills many pockets etc etc.
At best you can make 10 million tops and that includes salvaging for an additional hour and looting wrecks. You can't do Angel extravaganza by yourself in ONE hour, and I'm talking about a SINGLE player not alts or other corp mates. Take that SAME hour and apply a 0.0 mining ship again ALONE without help.

Get it, ofcourse it's more risky but my point is why grind missions when clearly the rewards in EVE are NOT located in empire space... which begs the question why be in an empire when you can be in nullsec and rule over the empires?

Zilberfrid
Posted - 2010.03.29 21:49:00 - [8]
 

Not supported, rewards from missions, especially l4's, are really, really, really not too low.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.03.29 22:06:00 - [9]
 

I didn't say they were low I said they were pathetic compared to nullsec.

Ecks Orion
Proposition Thirteen
The Third Rail
Posted - 2010.03.29 22:09:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:48:11
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:43:22
Ok about the 3 million, am I exaggerating? No I'm not!

Not all missions are pirates, some are factions, when Caldari State sends you to kill Gallente ships, which means no REWARDS for destroying a BS but hey you get a useless tag right??? etc....
but lets stick to the Pirate model. Let's say you're running Angel Extravaganza, great mission right? Lots of BS kills many pockets etc etc.
At best you can make 10 million tops and that includes salvaging for an additional hour and looting wrecks. You can't do Angel extravaganza by yourself in ONE hour, and I'm talking about a SINGLE player not alts or other corp mates. Take that SAME hour and apply a 0.0 mining ship again ALONE without help.

Get it, ofcourse it's more risky but my point is why grind missions when clearly the rewards in EVE are NOT located in empire space... which begs the question why be in an empire when you can be in nullsec and rule over the empires?


The bounties from the "extravaganza" missions alone are 25-30 million, not including bonus rooms... and they're doable in an hour solo if you're well skilled and fitted.

Plus you've neglected to figure LP into the issue. Every time I finish a "maxed out" mission, I get almost 10 million ISK worth of LP.

So 3 million for the rewards + 10 million for the LP + 25 million for bounties = almost 40 million in around an hour, maybe an hour and 15 minutes.

That doesn't include loot or salvage, because those take too long.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.03.29 23:59:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 23:59:29
Originally by: Ecks Orion
Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:48:11
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:43:22
Ok about the 3 million, am I exaggerating? No I'm not!

Not all missions are pirates, some are factions, when Caldari State sends you to kill Gallente ships, which means no REWARDS for destroying a BS but hey you get a useless tag right??? etc....
but lets stick to the Pirate model. Let's say you're running Angel Extravaganza, great mission right? Lots of BS kills many pockets etc etc.
At best you can make 10 million tops and that includes salvaging for an additional hour and looting wrecks. You can't do Angel extravaganza by yourself in ONE hour, and I'm talking about a SINGLE player not alts or other corp mates. Take that SAME hour and apply a 0.0 mining ship again ALONE without help.

Get it, ofcourse it's more risky but my point is why grind missions when clearly the rewards in EVE are NOT located in empire space... which begs the question why be in an empire when you can be in nullsec and rule over the empires?


The bounties from the "extravaganza" missions alone are 25-30 million, not including bonus rooms... and they're doable in an hour solo if you're well skilled and fitted.

Plus you've neglected to figure LP into the issue. Every time I finish a "maxed out" mission, I get almost 10 million ISK worth of LP.

So 3 million for the rewards + 10 million for the LP + 25 million for bounties = almost 40 million in around an hour, maybe an hour and 15 minutes.

That doesn't include loot or salvage, because those take too long.


25 to 30 million in an hour and 15 minutes.

You have to send me your fitting. It takes me at least 2 to 3 hours in a Raven. What skills do you have trained???

Protocol3
Legion Navy
Posted - 2010.03.30 00:38:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 23:59:29
Originally by: Ecks Orion
Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:48:11
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:43:22
Ok about the 3 million, am I exaggerating? No I'm not!

Not all missions are pirates, some are factions, when Caldari State sends you to kill Gallente ships, which means no REWARDS for destroying a BS but hey you get a useless tag right??? etc....
but lets stick to the Pirate model. Let's say you're running Angel Extravaganza, great mission right? Lots of BS kills many pockets etc etc.
At best you can make 10 million tops and that includes salvaging for an additional hour and looting wrecks. You can't do Angel extravaganza by yourself in ONE hour, and I'm talking about a SINGLE player not alts or other corp mates. Take that SAME hour and apply a 0.0 mining ship again ALONE without help.

Get it, ofcourse it's more risky but my point is why grind missions when clearly the rewards in EVE are NOT located in empire space... which begs the question why be in an empire when you can be in nullsec and rule over the empires?


The bounties from the "extravaganza" missions alone are 25-30 million, not including bonus rooms... and they're doable in an hour solo if you're well skilled and fitted.

Plus you've neglected to figure LP into the issue. Every time I finish a "maxed out" mission, I get almost 10 million ISK worth of LP.

So 3 million for the rewards + 10 million for the LP + 25 million for bounties = almost 40 million in around an hour, maybe an hour and 15 minutes.

That doesn't include loot or salvage, because those take too long.


25 to 30 million in an hour and 15 minutes.

You have to send me your fitting. It takes me at least 2 to 3 hours in a Raven. What skills do you have trained???


get a t3 ship legion works the best or tengu and you'll see yes its passible - i did a angel extra in 45 min - legion faction fitted centii a type meduim armor rep x2 etc...

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.03.30 01:00:00 - [13]
 

Everyone above me just got trolled I think.Laughing

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.03.30 02:11:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar
Everyone above me just got trolled I think.Laughing


not even a very subtle one...

xtasiaa
Posted - 2010.03.30 05:01:00 - [15]
 

I have no idea what you two are talking about....

Edenn
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.03.30 11:02:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ecks Orion
Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:48:11
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:43:22
Ok about the 3 million, am I exaggerating? No I'm not!

Not all missions are pirates, some are factions, when Caldari State sends you to kill Gallente ships, which means no REWARDS for destroying a BS but hey you get a useless tag right??? etc....
but lets stick to the Pirate model. Let's say you're running Angel Extravaganza, great mission right? Lots of BS kills many pockets etc etc.
At best you can make 10 million tops and that includes salvaging for an additional hour and looting wrecks. You can't do Angel extravaganza by yourself in ONE hour, and I'm talking about a SINGLE player not alts or other corp mates. Take that SAME hour and apply a 0.0 mining ship again ALONE without help.

Get it, ofcourse it's more risky but my point is why grind missions when clearly the rewards in EVE are NOT located in empire space... which begs the question why be in an empire when you can be in nullsec and rule over the empires?


The bounties from the "extravaganza" missions alone are 25-30 million, not including bonus rooms... and they're doable in an hour solo if you're well skilled and fitted.

Plus you've neglected to figure LP into the issue. Every time I finish a "maxed out" mission, I get almost 10 million ISK worth of LP.

So 3 million for the rewards + 10 million for the LP + 25 million for bounties = almost 40 million in around an hour, maybe an hour and 15 minutes.

That doesn't include loot or salvage, because those take too long.


Bounties from the "extravaganza" missions are not 25-30 million, they are 15-17 mil.

Actually you need less skills to make money on mining compared to combat skills, like tanking, gunnery, electronics and other stuff that makes you fly with a good fit.
Said "gunney" because I do those missions 15-20% faster in my Nightmare/Paladin then Golem.
Found out those ships are much better at dps along with ability to kill small ships when they just start flying at you.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.03.30 11:42:00 - [17]
 

Quote:

the rewards of a lv 4 mission are PATHETIC when compared to ONE hour of mining arkonor in nullsec. The difference is huge, 3 million vs 25 million for the same hour of playing.



The troll was growing up nicely up to that point, then you kinda gave it out too heavily.

Aspherical
Posted - 2010.03.30 11:55:00 - [18]
 

Hi I give you two fittings you can run an angel extra in around 50-55minutes incl Bonus room.

With the Tengu you have to make bookmarks and salvage bs and cruisers from that bookmarks after turning in mission with an rigged MWD destroyer and industrial from jetcan afterwards thats less than 30 minutes, loot and salvage should be worth over 15 mil,

BUT with the Golem you can loot BS and salvage bs on the fly and Tractor cruisers to later fast salvaging or many players took high value loot and salvage bs and let it be at this point.

When you think wtf for expensive fits then you see, how other players make ISK/hour.

Fitting for Tengu (no drones but webber, instapopps mwding web/scramble frigs, desy, 2 volley Battlecruisers)

[Tengu, Todbringer]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Pith A-Type Photon Scattering Field
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Pith B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay



Fittting for Golem (drop one target painter for Pith a-type EM Hardener in Sansha/Bloodraider space)
[Golem, Faction Torpedo copy 1]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Pith A-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Domination Target Painter
Domination Target Painter
Domination Target Painter

Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5


Fitting for Salvage destroyer

[Catalyst, salvy]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II

Gistii B-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive
Cap Recharger II

Salvager II
Salvager II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I

Small Salvage Tackle II
Small Salvage Tackle II
Small Cargohold Optimization II



Ecks Orion
Proposition Thirteen
The Third Rail
Posted - 2010.03.30 17:05:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 23:59:29
Originally by: Ecks Orion
Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:48:11
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:43:22
Ok about the 3 million, am I exaggerating? No I'm not!

Not all missions are pirates, some are factions, when Caldari State sends you to kill Gallente ships, which means no REWARDS for destroying a BS but hey you get a useless tag right??? etc....
but lets stick to the Pirate model. Let's say you're running Angel Extravaganza, great mission right? Lots of BS kills many pockets etc etc.
At best you can make 10 million tops and that includes salvaging for an additional hour and looting wrecks. You can't do Angel extravaganza by yourself in ONE hour, and I'm talking about a SINGLE player not alts or other corp mates. Take that SAME hour and apply a 0.0 mining ship again ALONE without help.

Get it, ofcourse it's more risky but my point is why grind missions when clearly the rewards in EVE are NOT located in empire space... which begs the question why be in an empire when you can be in nullsec and rule over the empires?


The bounties from the "extravaganza" missions alone are 25-30 million, not including bonus rooms... and they're doable in an hour solo if you're well skilled and fitted.

Plus you've neglected to figure LP into the issue. Every time I finish a "maxed out" mission, I get almost 10 million ISK worth of LP.

So 3 million for the rewards + 10 million for the LP + 25 million for bounties = almost 40 million in around an hour, maybe an hour and 15 minutes.

That doesn't include loot or salvage, because those take too long.


25 to 30 million in an hour and 15 minutes.

You have to send me your fitting. It takes me at least 2 to 3 hours in a Raven. What skills do you have trained???


I was wrong, the bounties for Guristas Extravaganza (no bonus room) are around 21 million, not 25-30. I did it again last night.

I fly a pretty basic shield/AC Vargur. Nothing special, no expensive modules. My Nav and Gunnery skills are good though.

Timed myself last night. Guristas Extravanganza (no bonus room) in 76 minutes from undock to dock.

Ecks Orion
Proposition Thirteen
The Third Rail
Posted - 2010.03.30 17:15:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Edenn
Originally by: Ecks Orion
Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:48:11
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:43:22
Ok about the 3 million, am I exaggerating? No I'm not!

Not all missions are pirates, some are factions, when Caldari State sends you to kill Gallente ships, which means no REWARDS for destroying a BS but hey you get a useless tag right??? etc....
but lets stick to the Pirate model. Let's say you're running Angel Extravaganza, great mission right? Lots of BS kills many pockets etc etc.
At best you can make 10 million tops and that includes salvaging for an additional hour and looting wrecks. You can't do Angel extravaganza by yourself in ONE hour, and I'm talking about a SINGLE player not alts or other corp mates. Take that SAME hour and apply a 0.0 mining ship again ALONE without help.

Get it, ofcourse it's more risky but my point is why grind missions when clearly the rewards in EVE are NOT located in empire space... which begs the question why be in an empire when you can be in nullsec and rule over the empires?


The bounties from the "extravaganza" missions alone are 25-30 million, not including bonus rooms... and they're doable in an hour solo if you're well skilled and fitted.

Plus you've neglected to figure LP into the issue. Every time I finish a "maxed out" mission, I get almost 10 million ISK worth of LP.

So 3 million for the rewards + 10 million for the LP + 25 million for bounties = almost 40 million in around an hour, maybe an hour and 15 minutes.

That doesn't include loot or salvage, because those take too long.


Bounties from the "extravaganza" missions are not 25-30 million, they are 15-17 mil.

Actually you need less skills to make money on mining compared to combat skills, like tanking, gunnery, electronics and other stuff that makes you fly with a good fit.
Said "gunney" because I do those missions 15-20% faster in my Nightmare/Paladin then Golem.
Found out those ships are much better at dps along with ability to kill small ships when they just start flying at you.


Yep, you're right. Angel Extravaganza is about 17 million without the bonus room, and Guristas Extravaganza is about 21 million without the bonus room.

Dimitri Zalvadov
Posted - 2010.03.30 17:16:00 - [21]
 

Made close to 27mil yesterday from angel extravaganza; got a few nice propulsion modules and a nice hardwiring. Did not bother including the LP as I use that for ammo. All and all took me a little over a hour, love having 40km tractor beams. :)

PS - That was in a kronos, I'm sure others are able to do it slightly faster

Deus Ex'Machina
Amarr
modro
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2010.03.30 17:32:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 30/03/2010 17:35:47
Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:48:11
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:43:22
Ok about the 3 million, am I exaggerating? No I'm not!

Not all missions are pirates, some are factions, when Caldari State sends you to kill Gallente ships, which means no REWARDS for destroying a BS but hey you get a useless tag right??? etc....
but lets stick to the Pirate model. Let's say you're running Angel Extravaganza, great mission right? Lots of BS kills many pockets etc etc.
At best you can make 10 million tops and that includes salvaging for an additional hour and looting wrecks. You can't do Angel extravaganza by yourself in ONE hour, and I'm talking about a SINGLE player not alts or other corp mates. Take that SAME hour and apply a 0.0 mining ship again ALONE without help.

Get it, ofcourse it's more risky but my point is why grind missions when clearly the rewards in EVE are NOT located in empire space... which begs the question why be in an empire when you can be in nullsec and rule over the empires?


I'll bite

it takes me 40ish minutes to do angel extravaganza 4 , including the bonus room
i make 20m or so in bounties
10m or so in loot
5-15m in salvage
1-20m in implants
6m for the isk reward and time isk reward
and 8700ish lp ... another ~10m

so ... at least 50m isk in 40ish minutes ? that's ok by me

phantomshura
Caldari
Posted - 2010.03.30 17:53:00 - [23]
 

thats why i always say drake sux in lv4, it takes 2 days to do a lv 4 in a drake.
what missions need is a nerf, i can make upto 40m/hour doing lv 4 afk, and without plexing 40m/hour in 0.0 with the risk of being ganked any second... lv 4 should be nerfed it produce too much mineral and isk for almost no risk.

Dacryphile
Posted - 2010.03.30 18:30:00 - [24]
 

Posting in a troll thread.

Entrepaz
Posted - 2010.03.30 19:42:00 - [25]
 

I like the ideas. Space should still be scannable, but could be deadspace pockets, industrial stuff, special combat etc.

Bravo on a good idea for diversifying pve and maybe pvp too!

Barokh
Posted - 2010.03.31 02:26:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

the rewards of a lv 4 mission are PATHETIC when compared to ONE hour of mining arkonor in nullsec. The difference is huge, 3 million vs 25 million for the same hour of playing.



The troll was growing up nicely up to that point, then you kinda gave it out too heavily.


My thoughts exactly Wink

Derelicht
Posted - 2010.03.31 11:24:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 21:55:53
Edited by: cyndrogen on 29/03/2010 18:22:53
You know what I hate about missions? The poor ass rewards!
I wish to GOD CCP would make missions worth the time it takes to improve standings.
I wish that we had areas that were ONLY accessible to people with high standings where RATS and LOOTERS and others with LOW standing were NOT allowed to enter!
I want to see FACTION SPECIFIC SPACE! Space which is only accessible to the hard working, any fool with 10 million SP can go and RAT in null / low sec, they don't even have to play a single mission and the rewards of null / low sec are FAR greater then ANY mission reward has to offer.

How I see it working is after a month of grinding you can actually use loyalty points to purchase something useful, like an elite mining contract from Caldari State or Gallente or Minmatar etc. which allows you to mine for a LIMITED time an exclusive area of Caldari State space reserved for high standing individuals ONLY!!! People who rat and skip missions would not be able to access this area with low standings.

Standings don't mean squat as far as territory is concerned in EVE and I think that's just plain WRONG! It makes all the Caldari Gallente Minmatar States seem POOR compared to what corporations are making in nullsec!



Just use a Vulture, 3 Ravens and a salvager to do your L4s. Like any normal person.


 

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