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Liz Viscious
Caldari
Quantum Pathways
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:53:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Gotekk
I find it amazing that some people are actually arguing that learning skills enrich the game play experience. I have 5/4 learnings it was the first thing I did and I am surprised I made it past those first few weeks (this was before the increased training time). Players should be out losing ships there first couple of weeks, experimenting with fits, trying a wide range of skill sets to learn what they enjoy...not sink time into getting and additional number tacked on to your attributes.


People want everyone to experience any pain they have felt themselves. In the opinion of most players who defend learning skills as-is, you haven't earned the right to play EVE until you've committed months of kill-joy skillpoint grinding. They're the same type who would have defended segregation in the 60's or imperialism as the white man's burden in the 19th century. People fear change and they hate to think that others might get a better start than they did, regardless of their current position in (EVE) society.

Suboran
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:00:00 - [242]
 

learning skills should stay as they are, they do infact enrich the game experience as it puts a speedbump infront of a noob to stop them getting ahead of themselves to quickly, an important part of 'growing up'

we have all done them so why is there a need to change them, you dont have to train them anyway.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:10:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Liz Viscious
Originally by: Gotekk
I find it amazing that some people are actually arguing that learning skills enrich the game play experience. I have 5/4 learnings it was the first thing I did and I am surprised I made it past those first few weeks (this was before the increased training time). Players should be out losing ships there first couple of weeks, experimenting with fits, trying a wide range of skill sets to learn what they enjoy...not sink time into getting and additional number tacked on to your attributes.


People want everyone to experience any pain they have felt themselves. In the opinion of most players who defend learning skills as-is, you haven't earned the right to play EVE until you've committed months of kill-joy skillpoint grinding. They're the same type who would have defended segregation in the 60's or imperialism as the white man's burden in the 19th century. People fear change and they hate to think that others might get a better start than they did, regardless of their current position in (EVE) society.


This is, without a doubt, the dumbest goddamn thing you've said so far. Seriously? Segregation? Imperialism? You are one step off invoking Godwin's Law. Get a freakin' grip on reality will you?

Natalie Caladan
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:20:00 - [244]
 

Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 09/06/2010 22:35:17
Originally by: Pantload
This is, without a doubt, the dumbest goddamn thing you've said so far. Seriously? Segregation? Imperialism? You are one step off invoking Godwin's Law. Get a freakin' grip on reality will you?

You're really a rude bullyboy eh? Love swearing and cursing? And proud of it?

Originally by: Suboran
learning skills should stay as they are, they do infact enrich the game experience as it puts a speedbump infront of a noob to stop them getting ahead of themselves to quickly, an important part of 'growing up'

I didn't have any "enriching" experience sitting in a station training learning skills. Neither did I have a relieved feeling of "wow, I almost got ahead of myself, happily the learning skills saved me!!". Perhaps you can elaborate and enlighten me?

Originally by: Suboran

we have all done them so why is there a need to change them, you dont have to train them anyway.

That's not a reason. Our ancestors beat each other up with clubs and skinned hairy elephants against the cold. No reason for our generation to do so as well "just because they did it too". Rolling Eyes

Also @mr Bullyboy: that things were done in the past doesn't mean that it has to be done until the end of time or that it's necessarily a good thing at all. That's what was meant by slavery and imperialism. Is it thát hard to understand? Really?

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:39:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Natalie Caladan
Originally by: Suboran
learning skills should stay as they are, they do infact enrich the game experience as it puts a speedbump infront of a noob to stop them getting ahead of themselves to quickly, an important part of 'growing up'

I didn't have any "enriching" experience sitting in a station training learning skills. Neither did I have a relieved feeling of "wow, I almost got ahead of myself, happily the learning skills saved me!!". Perhaps you can elaborate and enlighten me?
Why the hell were you sitting in a station the whole time? Training my learning skills was the top order of business for me when I was new, but I was still out popping Ark roids in 0.0 in my Imicus on week 1.

Stormmaster Neptunius
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:39:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: drake duka

Sure older players would be butthurt but I don't think they would unsub over it.


First, what about new players who have just trained the learning skills? That would be a real present for them. "Hey guys, you did a lot, mining that Veldspar in Navitas to pay for learning skills (4.5M isk for each advanced one) was really hard, waiting for them all train up was even harder, and we are all impressed with how much you won. We admire your patience, and... you know, all that was just a waste of time and effort, ha-ha, are you sure you want to continue playing the game? Still here? We don't guarantee that the skill you are going to train next isn't going to be abrogated."
Originally by: drake duka
I mean wtf were they thinking in the first place?

You know, they were thinking that training these in the first place would give them advantage in the future.
Originally by: Natalie Caladan
Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 09/06/2010 22:26:58
That's not a reason. Our ancestors beat each other up with clubs and skinned hairy elephants against the cold. No reason for our generation to do so as well "just because they did it too". Rolling Eyes


New players have better start than the old ones already, and always had. Those who started early had no advanced learning skills. When I started, there was no skill queue, no remaps. And so on. Learning skills can't be compared with hunting mammoths. It's more like: "ok, you worked hard to buy a good apartment, now we have a nice opportunity to present everyone with such. Lol, yeah, that drunk guy will get it for free just because he sold his and spent all the money on escort services, and you... well... you have it already, be off with you".

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:49:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Natalie Caladan
Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 09/06/2010 22:35:17
Originally by: Pantload
This is, without a doubt, the dumbest goddamn thing you've said so far. Seriously? Segregation? Imperialism? You are one step off invoking Godwin's Law. Get a freakin' grip on reality will you?

You're really a rude bullyboy eh? Love swearing and cursing? And proud of it?



Look lady, You and the other broad have got to get ahold of yourselves. I want the learning skills left in the game. Ergo I'm the same as the racist trash who supported Segregation? really? REALLY?! That is a seriously whacked out comparison. Oh and.. We're not in grade school here. We have to move past "ooooo, he said a dirty word". I'm just calling them like I see them.

Corina Jarr
Posted - 2010.06.09 22:59:00 - [248]
 

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks they have to "stay in station" the whole time they're learning the learning skills (and other in between if they're smart) is a moron. While learning those skills (and the bare minimum for the missions) I was able to do all but the advanced military training missions, and that was only because I had two days with only a few minutes of online time available. I was able to get all 6 basic learning skills up to level 4 before I had finished the career agents.

IoWalker
Posted - 2010.06.10 00:36:00 - [249]
 

You do not know what is "Best for me" and you do not know what is "best for the newbie". Please take your deep seeded need to control other people and leave my skills and my game alone and go away.



kthxbai.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.06.10 04:51:00 - [250]
 

Quote:
People want everyone to experience any pain they have felt themselves. In the opinion of most players who defend learning skills as-is, you haven't earned the right to play EVE until you've committed months of kill-joy skillpoint grinding. They're the same type who would have defended segregation in the 60's or imperialism as the white man's burden in the 19th century. People fear change and they hate to think that others might get a better start than they did, regardless of their current position in (EVE) society.


Actually, I have no deep seated desire for them to feel the same pain I did. Though honestly I didn't find it to be very painful since I was out actually playing the game hile they skilled. I have stated it befroe and I'll state it again, either leave them alone or if they are removed, than remove the bonus to attributes that you get from them. No desire for them to feel the "pain", no desire for the ability to remap the skill points invested in them, jsut flat out allow them or don't allow them. Yeah, it'd suck having the slower training speed... but better that than instant gratification to people who don't want to invest ameager amount of tiem into a game where you're intended to make long term decisions from the start.

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.10 13:12:00 - [251]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 10/06/2010 13:25:57
Originally by: Cash Render
Actually, I have no deep seated desire for them to feel the same pain I did.

Yes you do. It's called cognitive dissonance: whenever people do things they don't really like it causes contradiction. They take that away by ridiculing it or actually making themselves think it was good - why else would they have done it? That way their mind is consistent again but it's just a lie out of convenience.

Originally by: Pantload
Look lady, You and the other broad have got to get ahold of yourselves. I want the learning skills left in the game. Ergo I'm the same as the racist trash who supported Segregation? really? REALLY?! That is a seriously whacked out comparison. Oh and.. We're not in grade school here. We have to move past "ooooo, he said a dirty word". I'm just calling them like I see them.

What was meant (apparently it's very hard to understand) that there's always very conservative people around that cling to whatever exists, however good or bad it is, just because they don't want changes. No-one accused you of everything except a conservative mindset. And rudeness. Both of which are hard to deny.

Originally by: Stormmaster Neptunius
First, what about new players who have just trained the learning skills? That would be a real present for them. "Hey guys, you did a lot, mining that Veldspar in Navitas to pay for learning skills (4.5M isk for each advanced one) was really hard, waiting for them all train up was even harder, and we are all impressed with how much you won. We admire your patience, and... you know, all that was just a waste of time and effort.

Honestly - I couldn't care less if it was all in vain (45% of my SP consist out of learning skills atm). I'd probably make use of the opportunity to train an alt for R+D and/or Cyno or whatever. Really, things HAVE to change - even if it's at my personal expense.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.10 13:33:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 10/06/2010 13:25:57
Originally by: Cash Render
Actually, I have no deep seated desire for them to feel the same pain I did.

Yes you do. It's called cognitive dissonance: whenever people do things they don't really like it causes contradiction. They take that away by ridiculing it or actually making themselves think it was good - why else would they have done it? That way their mind is consistent again but it's just a lie out of convenience.

Originally by: Pantload
Look lady, You and the other broad have got to get ahold of yourselves. I want the learning skills left in the game. Ergo I'm the same as the racist trash who supported Segregation? really? REALLY?! That is a seriously whacked out comparison. Oh and.. We're not in grade school here. We have to move past "ooooo, he said a dirty word". I'm just calling them like I see them.

What was meant (apparently it's very hard to understand) that there's always very conservative people around that cling to whatever exists, however good or bad it is, just because they don't want changes. No-one accused you of everything except a conservative mindset. And rudeness. Both of which are hard to deny.

Originally by: Stormmaster Neptunius
First, what about new players who have just trained the learning skills? That would be a real present for them. "Hey guys, you did a lot, mining that Veldspar in Navitas to pay for learning skills (4.5M isk for each advanced one) was really hard, waiting for them all train up was even harder, and we are all impressed with how much you won. We admire your patience, and... you know, all that was just a waste of time and effort.

Honestly - I couldn't care less if it was all in vain (45% of my SP consist out of learning skills atm). I'd probably make use of the opportunity to train an alt for R+D and/or Cyno or whatever. Really, things HAVE to change - even if it's at my personal expense.


Spare us the lame babble from your Psych 101 class. Spare us your dumbass condescension. I may be many things. Rude certainly but not conservative. Oh and things don't HAVE to change. You WANT them changed. Huge distinction ( apparently that's very hard for you to understand )

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.10 13:55:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Pantload
Oh and things don't HAVE to change. You WANT them changed. Huge distinction ( apparently that's very hard for you to understand )

I more or less stated that as an opinion, not as a hard fact. Apparently you didn't notice.
Too bad.

You find it surpising that you don't really make a progessive impression? Really?

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.10 14:05:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Pantload
Oh and things don't HAVE to change. You WANT them changed. Huge distinction ( apparently that's very hard for you to understand )

I more or less stated that as an opinion, not as a hard fact. Apparently you didn't notice.
Too bad.

You find it surpising that you don't really make a progessive impression? Really?


No. You didn't state it as an opinion. You just stated it. As in "This HAS to change" Do you read what you write?

No surprise here. Never mentioned any surprise. You made that part up. I was merely correcting you. You need correcting.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program: "LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE."

Stormmaster Neptunius
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.10 15:14:00 - [255]
 

People who speak of somewhat great pain, what pain are you talking about? When I was a new player, I experienced satisfaction from training learning skills, from finding a good order with Evemon. Of course, I didn't sit in station: I had no help from anyone, didn't buy isk (legally or illegally) and earned everything myself. It was a great experience (and for me - not that hard, buying a set of +4 implants was harder). If you are so eager to remove learning skills, why don't you want to remove implants as well?

To have good training speed (one of the points of those against learning skills) you not only have to train "stupid" learnings, but to buy a set of +5 implants - otherwise you will suck compared to a player with higher skills; actually implants are even more important since there is no long payoff time for them. Then remove clone limit requirement - it's such a pain to lose SP because you forgot to update your clone. Really, terrible. Then, new players will never be able to train to the level of people who started in 2003. We should give every new player (and all current) the same amount of SP - as the oldest player have, to make sure they don't lose just because they had less skills (the same point as the one about training learning skills being "mandatory").

Isn't that crazy? Just leave learning skills alone. And if personally you don't like them, don't train them, that's simple.

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.11 08:59:00 - [256]
 

Update:

Originally by: Tippia
The problem is to (..) find a good balance between on the hand taking away skills people have spent time training and/or giving them for free to new players, and on the other hand creating a solution that's not a DB nightmare to implement and is fair to everyone.

You can watch the latest statement on the matter here, as part of the "New Player experience" presentation from Fanfest 2009. By the looks and sounds of it, as soon as they figure out a good solution, the learning skills will die in a fire.

I don't know if it's feasible from a DB standpoint, but the best suggestion I've heard so far is to simply tack 12pts onto everyone's attributes, set the new attribute minimum to 17, strip everyone of the SP used for learning skills and then use this nifty double-speed training feature to reimburse those SP (basically, calculate how much each SP char has in learning skills, set the "double bonus ends at x SP" to whatever you have now + that calculated SP value, and let everyone spend that training bonus on whatever they want).


Everyone happy? I am! Very Happy

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.11 09:14:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Update:

Originally by: Tippia
The problem is to (..) find a good balance between on the hand taking away skills people have spent time training and/or giving them for free to new players, and on the other hand creating a solution that's not a DB nightmare to implement and is fair to everyone.

You can watch the latest statement on the matter here, as part of the "New Player experience" presentation from Fanfest 2009. By the looks and sounds of it, as soon as they figure out a good solution, the learning skills will die in a fire.

I don't know if it's feasible from a DB standpoint, but the best suggestion I've heard so far is to simply tack 12pts onto everyone's attributes, set the new attribute minimum to 17, strip everyone of the SP used for learning skills and then use this nifty double-speed training feature to reimburse those SP (basically, calculate how much each SP char has in learning skills, set the "double bonus ends at x SP" to whatever you have now + that calculated SP value, and let everyone spend that training bonus on whatever they want).


Everyone happy? I am! Very Happy


As if that would happen...Rolling Eyes

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.06.11 12:32:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 10/06/2010 13:25:57
Originally by: Cash Render
Actually, I have no deep seated desire for them to feel the same pain I did.

Yes you do. It's called cognitive dissonance: whenever people do things they don't really like it causes contradiction. They take that away by ridiculing it or actually making themselves think it was good - why else would they have done it? That way their mind is consistent again but it's just a lie out of convenience.


Please, do not presume to know how I feel... it's a mark of ignorance that I would hope you're above. I am not one of the multi year players, in fact I'm merely 8 months into the game. And I didn't have anyone telling me to learn the learning skills first, me and the friend I started playing with kinda figured it out on our own from reading what they did. A little bit of research can carry a new player a long way and I took advantage of all the information avaialable out there. My opinion on the subject is quite simple... if they are removed, than remove the bonus they provide. Like everything else in this game, if you dont' put the time in, you shouldn't reap the benefits. Barrign that, they are fine as is. Everyoen calling for their removal is simply looking for instant gratification... either that or just too impatient with thier alts. I have two alts, and they both have already gone through the learnign skills and even after the third tiem I'm not phased by a month and a half worth of time. This game focuses on the long term and they are a great way to show new player's that in EvE you will have to wait for the things you want... assuming the new player gets the learning skills right away. If one cannot tolerate wiating a couple months for an entire tree fo skills, how are they goign to handle a month for a single skill?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.11 12:43:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Tippia
The problem is to (..) find a good balance between on the hand taking away skills people have spent time training and/or giving them for free to new players, and on the other hand creating a solution that's not a DB nightmare to implement and is fair to everyone.

You can watch the latest statement on the matter here, as part of the "New Player experience" presentation from Fanfest 2009. By the looks and sounds of it, as soon as they figure out a good solution, the learning skills will die in a fire.

I don't know if it's feasible from a DB standpoint, but the best suggestion I've heard so far is to simply tack 12pts onto everyone's attributes, set the new attribute minimum to 17, strip everyone of the SP used for learning skills and then use this nifty double-speed training feature to reimburse those SP (basically, calculate how much each SP char has in learning skills, set the "double bonus ends at x SP" to whatever you have now + that calculated SP value, and let everyone spend that training bonus on whatever they want).
Everyone happy? I am! Very Happy
As if that would happen...Rolling Eyes
For one, that video reference was posted on page 1 of this thread. CCP's stance of learning skills is well known and has been the same for a very long time now: they want to get rid of them, and the "only" thing standing in their way is figuring out a good way of doing it that doesn't **** off those of us who have trained them and which doesn't create a complete nightmare in the cross-over between the old and the new system (which basically boils down to "how to we reimburse the SP?").

They don't want them to be the kind of hurdle to new players people are talking about here. They have displayed quite some animosity towards people who turn them into a hurdle for new players. At this point, it doesn't really matter what we oldtimers think about how it currently works — whether we think it's a good system or not — they're going to get removed sooner or later, and we need to figure out a way of doing it that doesn't screw us over.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.11 13:41:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Update:

Originally by: Tippia
The problem is to (..) find a good balance between on the hand taking away skills people have spent time training and/or giving them for free to new players, and on the other hand creating a solution that's not a DB nightmare to implement and is fair to everyone.

You can watch the latest statement on the matter here, as part of the "New Player experience" presentation from Fanfest 2009. By the looks and sounds of it, as soon as they figure out a good solution, the learning skills will die in a fire.

I don't know if it's feasible from a DB standpoint, but the best suggestion I've heard so far is to simply tack 12pts onto everyone's attributes, set the new attribute minimum to 17, strip everyone of the SP used for learning skills and then use this nifty double-speed training feature to reimburse those SP (basically, calculate how much each SP char has in learning skills, set the "double bonus ends at x SP" to whatever you have now + that calculated SP value, and let everyone spend that training bonus on whatever they want).


Everyone happy? I am! Very Happy


Did anybody notice that this person is like 1 week old? WTF do you know about anything in this game at that age? Especially what will be good for the game in years to come?

Removing the learning skills can easily create as many problems as it solves. If enough of the population likes the system as it is, then why change it? Because 1 week old newbs can't stand it? Not a good enough reason.

And then we have folks like Tippia who seems to have already resigned themselves that change is coming and let's just make sure we don't get screwed. In my eyes, no matter what they do, if it involves removing the learning skills, then those of us who trained them get screwed.

LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.11 14:07:00 - [261]
 

This thread is still going? Couple of older posts I missed in the interim:

Originally by: stoicfaux
For anyone with half a brain, there's no choice in the matter. See my post about how spending the first 3 days of life training learning skills will get you into a PvP Rifter 8 days early (~28 days down to ~19.5 days for a 30% savings in time.)
As I already pointed out in a previous response to that post, choosing to optimise your learning skills for the frigate is the choice.

Originally by: stoicfaux
If a newbie sits in their boring newbie frigate for three days, they can get into a spiffy PvP Rifter 8 days earlier.
Again the 'I must sit in station and do nothing to train learning skills' fallacy.

Originally by: stoicfaux
IIRC, getting the 4/3 learning skills takes a week of accelerated training time. Given how fast the learning skills pay for themselves, there's no good reason not to spend the first week of game time sitting in your basic frigate while training the learning skills. Which is boring.
Because it is boring? Also, because of the cost? That you forgot the latter suggests you are more worried about how the learning skills affect alts than new players.


Originally by: Gotekk
I find it amazing that some people are actually arguing that learning skills enrich the game play experience. I have 5/4 learnings it was the first thing I did and I am surprised I made it past those first few weeks (this was before the increased training time). Players should be out losing ships there first couple of weeks, experimenting with fits, trying a wide range of skill sets to learn what they enjoy...not sink time into getting and additional number tacked on to your attributes.
This is exactly the kind of player the learning skills (usually) filter out - "I think I should be out shooting things, but I'm going to sit in the station instead because someone told me to". Enjoy never achieving anything.

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2010.06.11 14:51:00 - [262]
 

1st off I didnt read this whole thread I was just pointed here from a thread in general discussion. 2nd off this is cross posting but oh well.

Originally by: Doppleganger
Oh please you dont need to train learning skills up right away, I didn't. I was about 3 months in before I even trained up the 1st tier learning skills to lvl 3 or 4 and that didnt take that long. I know for the longest time I didnt bother with the lvl 5 of the 1st tier learning skills cause someone figured out to get back in the time it took to train the skill I would have to play like 4 yrs.

Well ok I have played more then 4 yrs and back when I started there wasnt even the tier 2 of learning skills, they didnt come along until later. Even though I didnt get around to even thinking about training the learning skills until months and months into me playing, can anyone honestly say my training is gimped? or I am behind?

Sure if I had trained them all right away (if we would have had the tier 2 learning skills back then)I might have more like 135 mil sp instead of the 120 mil I got now.... no big loss. Not having the learning skills trained up right away didnt turn me off the game as I have been playing 7+ yrs and I certainly dont think having to train them has gimped my chars training.

I dont think removing them is bad as long as I get compensated for the time. After all if ppl are going to whine about having to train them then I guess I should whine about any lost sp for their removal.

I swear the game has changed but the group of ppl that play it has changed just as much. Most players dont seem to have the patience that this game requires. Dont worry its not a race, put your time in and you will get to the same place as us bitter old vets have. I didn't join Eve to try to race to the end game in a couple of months like other games try to get you to do, Eve doesnt hand you whatever you want just because you think you should have it.

I never thought I would be playing Eve this long but one of the things that has kept me playing is the nice steady pace of the game. I have grown to like that it takes a long time to get places it makes the game more attractive if you chose to play for the long haul.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.06.11 15:15:00 - [263]
 

Edited by: Sader Rykane on 11/06/2010 15:14:58
In honor of this thread, I am now proceeding down the path of training my advanced skills to level 5, I will finish Cybernetics V in ~ 11 hours and start on my primary attributes soon after.



Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.06.11 15:25:00 - [264]
 

Edited by: Sader Rykane on 11/06/2010 15:25:28
Quote:
This is exactly the kind of player the learning skills (usually) filter out - "I think I should be out shooting things, but I'm going to sit in the station instead because someone told me to". Enjoy never achieving anything.


I love this assumption, because I've proved it wrong at least 5 times.

I got 5-6 RL friends into the game by having them train all learnings to 4/4 first AND minimizing wasted SP in the 1.6 million bonus period. It was about 1 month and 1/2 before any of them undocked after doing what I told them to do? This was last march.

1 year later?

We all successfully ran and lived in multiple wormholes since ~3 months after Apocrypha came out. Every one of them has more than one account, some have three. And each of them have a comfortable amount of isk and can fly MANY varieties of ships and have a VERY good understanding of the game.

Hows that for not achieving anything?

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.11 15:28:00 - [265]
 

Edited by: Selinate on 11/06/2010 15:38:53
Anyone who support learning skills is an idiot. Quit pushing your wasted weeks onto everyone else because it's "an introduction to the game". If CCP wants to make this a more successful game (where people don't leave after they realize that it has ******ed effing skills just to shorten the skill training time), they'd remove something as ******ed as learning skills.

Again, only idiots would support the learning skills. QFT.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.11 15:39:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Doppleganger
1st off I didnt read this whole thread I was just pointed here from a thread in general discussion. 2nd off this is cross posting but oh well.


Yah, catching up on threadnaughts is painful. Really wish Someone(tm) would implement a forum paradigm that supported debates (i.e. create a thread-sticky containing the various pros and cons already mentioned with links to the actual post in the thread to allow folks to catch up quickly.)

Originally by: Doppleganger
Oh please you dont need to train learning skills up right away, I didn't.
Sure if I had trained them all right away (if we would have had the tier 2 learning skills back then)I might have more like 135 mil sp instead of the 120 mil I got now.... no big loss. Not having the learning skills trained up right away didnt turn me off the game as I have been playing 7+ yrs and I certainly dont think having to train them has gimped my chars training.


The training skills can show significant savings in just the first month alone. This post shows how three days of learning skills can knock a week off of a month's worth of training to get into a PvP Rifter. It was a 30% savings in time. So your 120 million versus 135 million skill points example might be really low. If we apply a 30% savings to your example, then that 120 million could have been up to 170 million skill points, or that 7 years worth of skills could have been 10 years worth of skills. Or you could have completed that 7 years of skills in under 5 years. ugh

The learning skills are too non-trivial to ignore and pretty much "require" that new characters learn them almost immediately. Asking a newbie to run around with the basic starting skills while training the learning skills makes for a bad first impression.

I've suggested setting everyone to a minimum of 4/3/4 learning skills (basic, advanced and learning) which is about 5-6 days of optimized accelerated time (~440k skill points, IIRC). That's enough of a bump that newbies wouldn't feel compelled to immediately spend time on learning, but leaves folks a choice whether to get them up to 5 later on.



CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.06.11 15:48:00 - [267]
 

Edited by: CyberGh0st on 11/06/2010 15:51:12

Personally, I don't see the need to remove them, I do have them all maxed.

However, if CCP and alot of players really want to remove them, then the ONLY way of doing it is the following :

1. Give all the players that trained the learning skills a refund of skillpoints, so they can freely distribute them to whatever new skills they like.
2. Give ALL players the full stats boost you would get training to maxed learning skills.

If CCP want to spend the time and effort in doing that, I could live with removal of the training skills.


Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.11 16:08:00 - [268]
 

Edited by: Crumplecorn on 11/06/2010 16:11:11
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Hows that for not achieving anything?
I never said mindless drones weren't useful to others.

Not the mention the difference between the coordination operation of friends and some random noob who heard he had to learn these skills first in rookie help.

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2010.06.11 16:46:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux

The training skills can show significant savings in just the first month alone. This post shows how three days of learning skills can knock a week off of a month's worth of training to get into a PvP Rifter. It was a 30% savings in time. So your 120 million versus 135 million skill points example might be really low. If we apply a 30% savings to your example, then that 120 million could have been up to 170 million skill points, or that 7 years worth of skills could have been 10 years worth of skills. Or you could have completed that 7 years of skills in under 5 years. ugh


Yes but is that 30% increase because of the accelerated skill training new chars get as well? Because then that 30% would not equate over the life a char or does having the learning skills trained up actually accelerate all training after that by 30%? Plus I might not be figuring this in but back when I joined there was no char attrib remapping so when I wanted to train skills that were in my lower attribs I just had to suck it up and train it anyway.

I mean they already added the char attrib remapping some time ago and now ppl want to remove the training skills as well. I'm all for improving the game but I never saw anything wrong with the training in the 1st place.

I was patience and went out and fought while some of my skills trained slow and still enjoyed myself and I didnt see a prob.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.11 17:14:00 - [270]
 

Edited by: Pantload on 11/06/2010 17:18:52
Originally by: Selinate
Edited by: Selinate on 11/06/2010 15:38:53
Anyone who support learning skills is an idiot. Quit pushing your wasted weeks onto everyone else because it's "an introduction to the game". If CCP wants to make this a more successful game (where people don't leave after they realize that it has ******ed effing skills just to shorten the skill training time), they'd remove something as ******ed as learning skills.

Again, only idiots would support the learning skills. QFT.


What an interesting statement. You're obviously against learning skills and you're clearly a ****ing idiot. Of course, the connection between those facts would be clear to someone who...well...isn't you. I haven't checked your age yet, but you're almost guaranteed to be newb. Feel free to cram your stupid opinion on this subject. Oh and while we're at it...

LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!

*edit*
You do realize that they [CCP] have made several efforts over the years to dumb this **** down to your level right? Reduced pre-req's for advanced learnings, double speed training bonus, and neural remaps just to name 3 things. I don't support dumbing this down any farther because a handful of people are too ignorant, too lazy, or too obsessed with instant gratification. Oh and..

LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!


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