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Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.06.04 18:58:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Aramis Rosicrux
How about we introduce a way for people to pay real dollars for learning advances?

Give me the chit!
The impatient newbes who can afford it can buy a learning chit like the plex cards, which can be applied for each learning skill. One chit, user can apply it to any of the eleven learning skills. Once applied, the user has Level Five for that skill. The user would have to buy the skill and inject it, at minimum, before they can apply the chit.

This is like buying a diploma at an unethical university... corrupt, but much like the real world.

Just an idea... Laughing and here is another!

Secondary Benefit?
Or how about a secondary benefit to the learning skills to increase the value of those skills?
Say a small bonus to cap total, cap recharge, shield recharge, missle precision, turret tracking based on your level of one of the five attributes?



Please tell me you're just trolling..

Final Flight
Posted - 2010.06.05 17:08:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Final Flight on 05/06/2010 17:18:17
Edited by: Final Flight on 05/06/2010 17:16:34
I am a completely new player (Bought the game 4 days ago) so I might not know this whole discussion in the great scheme of things but I did read all 8 pages of posts. As I am literally progressing through what this topic is about I feel I can contribute something.

Has anyone played the board game LIFE?
Once you pick the color of your car you are given an option. Go to college or go straight into the work force. Both options make sense depending on how you want to play the game. Yes going to college gives you better things if you do it but it is just as viable to skip it and go straight into the work force.

As I stated I only started playing 4 days ago. I have started training my learning skills because to me it makes sense to spend time now to save a lot more time later. During the time my learning skills are training I slip in other skills that are useful here and there to make game play more enjoyable at this moment rather then one month from now.

It seems like most vet players are looking at this from an alt POV as they don't want to deal with the LS because its just wasting their time to have that alt specialize in what they want its purpose to be.

Myself, I love the learning skills in game as they are. I weight the pro's and the con's to slipping in other skills while learning those like salvaging, targeting and so on. When I feel losing the 20 minutes there or 1 hour there will make the game play a lot more enjoyable I do it.

A lot of people that are trying to fight to remove learning skills are going in with the mentality that when you are training your learn skills YOU HAVE TO ONLY TRAIN THEM. Yes that idea works if you are training up an alt. For a new player that is not the case. I am choosing to spend my most of my training boost on learning skills yes, but I am also "Wasting" some of it not getting learning skills. It hasn't stopped me from from enjoying the early parts of the game. I haven't received any ISK from players and I have already been able to afford my advanced learning skill books and am already looking ahead to the future with getting my cruiser.

With the use of EVEmon and common sense I have been able to continue to train my learning skills while not making the game unplayable but still being able to do mining, mission running, trading, or pretty much anything I want to try and do.

People who are trying to fight to have either learning skills removed or make it easier isn't looking at the game for a new player to learn how to play. Having these learning skills in game has already taught me balancing things in EVE.

If anything learning skills in EVE is a way to weed out the players who have ADD and cant look at the bigger picture.

As a completely new player I fully support having learning skills in the game EXACTLY how they are. The whole reason I left WOW was to find a game that wasn't dumbed down and spoon fed to me. A game where you can mess up and fail not where the game will pick you back up, mess up your hair with their hand then say, "Go ahead little Billy, You are perfect in every way and you never have to earn something."

Then again... What do I know. I'm only a new player with common sense who is directly dealing with the topic at hand.

Liz Viscious
Caldari
Quantum Pathways
Posted - 2010.06.05 17:21:00 - [213]
 

Edited by: Liz Viscious on 05/06/2010 17:23:46
If you're gunna lie about being a new player, at least try to make it not look like a forum alt.

If you're honestly a new player and like learning skills as they are, then you should definitly check into bondage, s&m, or some other form of torture, because clearly you like things to inflict unnecessary pain for some long term tantric reward.

Learning skills suck. I've done a bare minimum of learning skill training, basics to 4, half the advanced to 2-3. Doing this sets me back. It also makes ANY skilling decisions early on all the more crucial, because that's what you're going to be stuck with until your learning skills reach a level high enough you can safely convince your ADD brain to stop training them so you can have fun.

I started out as a miner, figured i could make some income while learning skill went up, and didn't consider how TERRIBLE BORING it was going to be. From there I went to trading and hauling. Once again, zzzzzz, another week of skilling wasted. Recently I settled on mission running and finally found something that could hold my attention for more than a few days. That being said, i'm extremely weak on core skills due to all the diffirent avenues I went down before settling on this track. My account is now a month old and i'm hardly ready to run lvl 3 missions. My income is very low, and i'm spending a lot more time afk letting core skills train than I am actually running around and doing things that I consider fun, simply because they're so dangerous with the current amount of skills I have. I haven't tried pvp yet, but I can only assume that would be twice as harsh on lacking skills.

TLDR: Waiting a month or two just to start playing one aspect of the game to see if it's for you is terrible design. And please drop the bull**** attitude that learning is totally optional. Nobody in their right mind is going to let the .16m mark pass by without traning a lot of learning skills. Some players might be ok with mining veld and running lvl1's for months while they skill, but most people are bored to tears by that kind of approach.

Final Flight
Posted - 2010.06.05 18:29:00 - [214]
 

Edited by: Final Flight on 05/06/2010 18:43:38
Edited by: Final Flight on 05/06/2010 18:42:24
Edited by: Final Flight on 05/06/2010 18:32:42
Then it looks like I should look into S&M.

I spend my time while the learning skills are training to learn more about the game, the UI, how the factions work, who the hell Concord is. I am using my learning time to LEARN the game. When I get home from work today I could stop training my learning skills and start training a completely different skill set. Pay attention, this is where a lot of people miss this point. If I am happy with what I am doing and I am having fun knowing that I am enjoying the game even though it might take longer to reach my goal then it is worth it.

Yes I could go back to the learning skills later if I wanted to but they are a skill not a requirement. People need to stop trying to force the way they want to play the game or the way they feel training should be done on everyone else.

Just because the way the game is it is currently set up suits how I want to play over the way you want to change it doesn't make it right for you to claim that it is worthless. (The learning skills I mean)

I like to walk before I run. I'd rather not have all the tools in the world and have no idea how to use them. People need to stop looking at how fast you can get somewhere but enjoy the game for what it is. Any people with common sense can tell that EVE takes time. Unlike WOW which you can literally make a new character and in a couple of months have the best gear in the game with the right group of people. (Yes you can) Eve is a game of time and enjoyment. You progress slowly and earn what you do. I am sick and tired of kids coming into games crying because its too hard or it takes too long and again yes... I am a brand new player and I can already see this. People crying about how hard things are in WOW is what has made me leave and come play EVE.

So again, let players choose how to play the game. Just because something might be better doesn't always mean thats what someone wants to do. If anyone wants to play the board game LIFE with me Ill be more then happy to play and watch your face and I skip college and start moving around game board.

"BUT YOUR SUPPOST TO DO COLLEGE FIRST!!!!1!!11!!one!!"

This is a sandbox MMO where you choose your own adventure. Stop trying to make it Your adventure that happens to be an MMO for other people to follow you.

If you care to continue to call me a forum alt Ill be more then happy to link screenshots of my steam account of when I bought the game, A picture of my in game character or anything else that will help you realize that some new players don't believe you are doing any good trying to "Help us" by imposing your own views and wants.


Edited because I don't know how to spell correctly.

Liz Viscious
Caldari
Quantum Pathways
Posted - 2010.06.06 00:00:00 - [215]
 

This is a sandbox, and therefor we should all have to build up a few months of learning skills in order to train at a good pace? Do you read what you type and think it hoenstly makes sense?

This is a game, like LIFE (the board game), you do it for amusement. There's no immidiate gratification in the absence of learning skills, it still take months, years, maybe more, in order to adequately prepare your character for a given role in any one of the plethora of niche games in the sandbox.

I went to college, irl, I got my masters degree, and it prepared me for my current career. I left that education system with all the tools i needed to start my job. Finishing learning skills is nothing like that. Once you're done, you get to START the actual training process and figuring out what you want to do in the long-term. I agree, the first formative months of an account should be preperation for the longer gameplay ahead, but learning skills don't accomplish that. In-fact they ****** your ability to adequatly analyze which roles you might want to explore by making those inefficient tangents in the early going.

This isn't a question of mmo styles or how one plays in larger group. This is a question about why it is necessary to essentially bar newer players from entering the playing field along with everyone else at a similar pace until they run the gauntlet of boring learing skills. Isn't the fact they start with an inconsequential amount of isk, no knowledge of the game, and no idea of where to being enough? The added stumbling block of first realizing you should have learning skills, and then training them up while attempting to join others in meaningful activities in-game is a bizzare thing. Something I hope will eventually go away.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.06.06 04:58:00 - [216]
 

Quote:
There's no immidiate gratification in the absence of learning skills, it still take months, years, maybe more, in order to adequately prepare your character for a given role in any one of the plethora of niche games in the sandbox.



THan I take it you're simply supporting them beign removed, not removed and the +10 to attributes as well than. Because giving the +10 to attributes without doing the training would in fact be instant gratification.... gainign somethign without putting in the time to gain it.


Quote:
I went to college, irl, I got my masters degree, and it prepared me for my current career. I left that education system with all the tools i needed to start my job. Finishing learning skills is nothing like that. Once you're done, you get to START the actual training process and figuring out what you want to do in the long-term. I agree, the first formative months of an account should be preperation for the longer gameplay ahead, but learning skills don't accomplish that. In-fact they ****** your ability to adequatly analyze which roles you might want to explore by making those inefficient tangents in the early going.


THan maybe you should try considering the learning skills like high school... after you finish them you get to choose you're future career. Furthermore, is that none of them are necessary (like the people who get a GED or just simply drop out). It is possible to play the game without them and I have choosen not to level them completely becasue honestly it's not worth the tiem sink after a certain point. When I know there are times I'll be gone for an extended period (4 or 5 days) I'll throw in my level 5 basic and advance learnign skills training to ensure I don't waste the time. It's really not a matter fo haivng to have them to enjoy the game. Everyone just deludes themselves into thinking ti is becasue it makes the overall skill progression faster.

Now, if you want to simply say remove them and the bonus they provide entirely, honestly I'll support that. But I there is no grounds for sayign they are a "mandatory" starting skill set and no reason to provide the bonus to attributes if they are removed.

Final Flight
Posted - 2010.06.06 05:18:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Final Flight on 06/06/2010 05:25:28
I think the thing you are either missing or just don't want to see is learning skills are an option... Yes it is EXTREMELY smart and beneficial to train them early or to train them in the first place but again they are an option. Not a requirement, Do I look at my evemon and sigh because it will still take me 11 more days to get where I think my learning skills should be? Yes I do, Do I think that just because I cant fly my cruiser yet it is taking away from the fun? No.

This topic is more a matter of opinion of people thinking it would be best to do away with learning skills just because they feel that they aren't need. I feel they are needed, learning skills give you the choice to either learn them now and save time or learn them later on. Now I do fully agree that people who tell people to learning training skills first and nothing else is completely wrong and that to make the game enjoyable in the first couple of months you need to train some other skills as well but there is no point in removing something just to make the game faster.

Again, I can understand how that can be appealing to new players to remove learning skills because some don't want to deal with them and want to go straight into what ever they envision them doing in the game. Now my opinion on this topic has changed slightly after thinking about it all day. I think learning skills should still remain in the game as a tool, not a requirement. Learning skills shouldn't have the belief behind it where if you don't train those first then "You fail and you are "Behind" everyone and you're an idiot for not doing it soon." Would it better if there is a way they could tweak learning skills to make them slightly less of a focus at the start. I would completely agree, but just straight removing them isn't the way of doing it.

Also, all these people keep using the word "Behind". If people enjoy what they are doing in the game whether it be training their gunnery skills first or their science skills first does it mean they are playing the game wrong? No, They are playing the game how they want to play it. People are putting this magical idea that, "OMG No training skills first, well HAHA you are behind 8 days.", when really if people are enjoying what they are doing then they aren't behind. They are getting from the game what they want to get. As I said before, EVE is a game of skill, time and enjoyment.

All I am saying is that learning skills should be tweaked to remove the stigma that if you do train them early then you are behind everyone. Stop making the skills "Have to's" instead of "Want to's". They way of doing that is not removing them from the game. The only thing removing them from the game does is just skip over the problem of people willing to wait to better themself.

Eh.... I want to be a doctor, but I mean.... All doctors have to go to medical school so why don't we just get rid of medical schools and allow people do deal with patients. I'm not saying removing learning skills would result in the same drastic results like if we removed medical schools from real life but hopefully you can see the point I am making and realize it.

One last thing. Yes I can see the benefits of removing learning skills to make the game more new player friendly but doing that just sells yourself short. I understand games need to change and adapt to survive but this isn't the way of doing it.

Liz Viscious
Caldari
Quantum Pathways
Posted - 2010.06.06 05:22:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Liz Viscious on 06/06/2010 05:23:44
TBH I wouldn't care either way. The problem I see is barrier to entry on an even keel with the rest of the population. You can argue all day that you don't need a single learning skill to start training, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Eve is a very long-term game, but that doesn't mean there should be a month of skiling or more to begin long-term progress. I'm not arguing it's unintelligent to train them. I'm not arguing that it is very insightful of a newb (sadly) to wholly depart from gameplay for weeks at a time just to get them out of the way with the least amount of frustration.

It's understandable older players are so accustomed to waiting weeks and months for high end skills that someone griping about a month is wanting instant gratification, but that is not the case. New players want to explore the game without a long-term penalty if they choose to do so. I think there are plenty of ways to make this happen, not the least of which would be doing away with learning skills, but the bottom line is: learning skills, no matter when you get to them, create a void in what would otherwise be a progressive path to a more expansive sandbox. They must be trained if you think you're truly interested in being a player years down the road and don't like the idea of wasting extra days, months, or even years (evemon calculations, not mine) on a skill path. Problem is, you'll hardly know if you still want to play, much less how you want to play, if you spend more than a minimal amount of time on learning skills.

Beckett Firesnake
Posted - 2010.06.06 14:22:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: Beckett Firesnake on 06/06/2010 14:31:12
That's right Learnings is a great mistake.
Removing it now would be the best thing to do.
I think It would be great to remove all learnings and allow players to recreate their skill tree one time

Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari
Elder Tribes
Posted - 2010.06.06 14:43:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Beckett Firesnake
Edited by: Beckett Firesnake on 06/06/2010 14:31:12
That's right Learnings is a great mistake.
Removing it now would be the best thing to do.
I think It would be great to remove all learnings and allow players to recreate their skill tree one time


Yeah respecs are the way to go! O wait...

Learning is optional. Doing it gives a long term benefit and a short term penalty.

If learning should be removed, than the same goes for +stat implants. Those even have a barrier of entry which advanced learning lacks (600m for +5).

You know... everyone should only be able to fly start ships since it's unfair you can actually fly other stuff....

Liz Viscious
Caldari
Quantum Pathways
Posted - 2010.06.06 17:28:00 - [221]
 

Edited by: Liz Viscious on 06/06/2010 17:30:42
*facepalm*

Learning is optional in much the same ways legs are optional to compete in a triathalon. Sure, you can compete without them, but you're going to be moving at a pace that's way behind the rest (expensive prosthesis aside).

If you legitimately view this as strategy then I've got absolutely nothing for you. I've said it before, but it bears repeating one last time: anything that encourages new players to afk from the game (except to que new skills) for their first month in order to skill at an ideal pace is stupid.

I feel deeply sorry that you're failing to grasp just how awful this is or you're jaded to the point you'd only like to see everyone suffer as you did. In either case, nice troll and way to completely fail at reading comprehension. You make it look easy. 7/10

Final Flight
Posted - 2010.06.06 18:00:00 - [222]
 

As I stated... I have been training my learning skills to 4/4 with Learning to rank V... Guess what.... Everyday I play, I don't AFK in the corner and wait for these evil skills to finish... You know why? Because I fill in other skills here and there to make the game fun. Also again, as I said, People who say you should only train those and nothing else are doing more harm then good but learning skills in no way are a requirement right from the start. Stop trying to act like you have to use them from the very start. Stop using the term "behind". People aren't behind anything, people play at the pace they want and if the want to train their gunnery skills first it is their own choice to.

I am hungry... Pfft... Everyone gets hungry, so why should we pay... There should be free food for all!

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.07 00:41:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Final Flight
As I stated... I have been training my learning skills to 4/4 with Learning to rank V... Guess what.... Everyday I play, I don't AFK in the corner and wait for these evil skills to finish... You know why? Because I fill in other skills here and there to make the game fun.


4/4 with learning V is 1.2 million skill points. You only get 1.6 million of accelerated training time. That leaves 400k free for training "real" skills at a double rate.

During the accelerated training period, 4/4/5 takes 18d 8h with unoptimized attributes and 16d 13h with optimized. Once the accelerated training period is over, you double the time you sit around waiting on learning skills to finish...

Would any rational human being want to spend non-accelerated time on learning skills?


Mr Zog
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:04:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Cash Render

THan I take it you're simply supporting them beign removed, not removed and the +10 to attributes as well than. Because giving the +10 to attributes without doing the training would in fact be instant gratification.... gainign somethign without putting in the time to gain it.



I agree, starting a character with the same amount of attribute points that literally everybody else will have under that system(-implants) constitutes a gain, or instant gratification. As a matter of fact I think the 39 you start out with is too much instant gratification for the new player. Drop that down to one point for all attributes and create another tier of learning skills for those lazy noobs. That will give them the proper respect for the skill training system. I want to see some hard work and dedication out of these people before I allow them to just waltz in here and start doing things like shooting laser beams at rocks for hours at a time like they own the place.

TriIIian
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:51:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: TriIIian on 08/06/2010 09:51:53
If you have trained all your learning skills to V then this thread sucks.

If you havent trained all your learning skills then this thread rocks.

I have 5/4 except for charisma. If I train them all to 5 which I plan to soon, I will be ****ed if CCP scraps learning skills and gives everyone 5/5.

If CCP gives everyone 5/5 next week before I start training 5/5 I will be very happy I dont have to waste me time traing learning skills.

So I guess I am in two minds about learing skills!

But please CCP change this SadI dont wanna train learing skills to V.

Natalie Caladan
Posted - 2010.06.08 10:35:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 08/06/2010 10:36:36
Originally by: Liz Viscious
Edited by: Liz Viscious on 06/06/2010 05:23:44
You can argue all day that you don't need a single learning skill to start training, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Eve is a very long-term game, but that doesn't mean there should be a month of skiling or more to begin long-term progress. I'm not arguing it's unintelligent to train them. I'm not arguing that it is very insightful of a newb (sadly) to wholly depart from gameplay for weeks at a time just to get them out of the way with the least amount of frustration.

The bottom line is: learning skills, no matter when you get to them, create a void in what would otherwise be a progressive path to a more expansive sandbox.

Very well said!!

Originally by: TriIIian
Edited by: TriIIian on 08/06/2010 09:51:53
If you have trained all your learning skills to V then this thread sucks.
If you havent trained all your learning skills then this thread rocks.


Not really. I have 5/5 and 5/4 on most - still I argue in favour of doing away with the learning skills. I don't see the added value of them being "trainable" and you don't learn anything from it except to exercise patience. I can't imagine it can be CCPs intention that new players should be afk for 4 weeks before starting to play their game.

I could be mistaken ofc. I'm not really familiar with Icelandic minds .. if Björk is a prototype though I believe it may wel be the case! Cool

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.08 11:59:00 - [227]
 

You can't compare learning skills to other skills because learning skills don't actually do anything. Two characters identical in skills in all areas except learning are going to be effectively identical.

You can't compare learning skills to implants because implants actually have risk-reward involved. You don't risk your learning skills in day to day Eve life, but you do risk your implants.

More players means more money for CCP means more content means a better game. Learning skills are a turnoff, but they're seen as necessary because without them the training speeds are horrendously slow, and if you don't max out your skills, you're going to have a hard time catching up with people who do have those skills. Those who say there "is no skill race" has never stepped foot outside of a station. Go fight some people who have better trained skills, then talk to me about how there isn't a skill race.

What I'd do, probably, would be to give +10 to all stats, a neural remap, and skillpoint redistribution. The only people who could possibly find reason to complain about this would be the people who like seeing progress bars climb.

Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari
Elder Tribes
Posted - 2010.06.08 16:56:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Liz Viscious
Edited by: Liz Viscious on 06/06/2010 17:30:42
*facepalm*

Learning is optional in much the same ways legs are optional to compete in a triathalon. Sure, you can compete without them, but you're going to be moving at a pace that's way behind the rest (expensive prosthesis aside).

If you legitimately view this as strategy then I've got absolutely nothing for you. I've said it before, but it bears repeating one last time: anything that encourages new players to afk from the game (except to que new skills) for their first month in order to skill at an ideal pace is stupid.

I feel deeply sorry that you're failing to grasp just how awful this is or you're jaded to the point you'd only like to see everyone suffer as you did. In either case, nice troll and way to completely fail at reading comprehension. You make it look easy. 7/10


Hihi I got a 7/10.

I love how people only accept their own reasoning as thorough, just and divine, and are quick to denounce other opinions.

Let's try some of that good old logic and use it on your post:


"Learning is optional *snip*. You can compete without them, but you're moving at a pace that's way behind the rest"

- Playing less than 23/7 does the same. Does this mean that everyone should play for the exact amount of time each day, since otherwise they would be moving at a pace behind the rest? It should according to your fallacious reasoning.

"If you legitimately view this as strategy then I've got absolutely nothing for you. I've said it before, but it bears repeating one last time: anything that encourages new players to afk from the game (except to que new skills) for their first month in order to skill at an ideal pace is stupid."

- The whole setup of EvE encourages afk play. Wtf are you smoking? Getting SP while afk, pos bashing while afk, mining while afk, afk missioning, afk trading, gate camping while afk. This entire game is build around being played afk, preferably with multiple accounts. Must be a damn stupid game then.

"I feel deeply sorry that you're failing to grasp just how awful this is or you're jaded to the point you'd only like to see everyone suffer as you did. In either case, nice troll and way to completely fail at reading comprehension. You make it look easy."

- I fail at reading comprehension? Really? Where do I state that anyone has to learn learning skills? My point is the opposite, you definitely don't have to. You can, leading to more SP. Or you can opt not to, leading to more non-sp assets (tangible or otherwise).


Also ,contrary to popular belief ad hominems do not compensate for senseless drivel.




Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.08 17:33:00 - [229]
 

I'm not going to bother with some long, well thought-out dissertation on this subject. However I will say the following:

"Leave the damn learning skills alone. Newbs that don't like them need to HTFU or GTFO. Simple as that. The world does not rearrange itself to accommodate you."

PL

Kai Anulum
Posted - 2010.06.08 18:29:00 - [230]
 

I agree, the learning skills, and the accelerated learning they bestow is equally what makes eve unique in the world of MMO's and a huge hurdle for new characters.

I think some dynamic learning skill set, based on the non-learning skills you train, could blunt the double edged sword.

As a combat pilot, when you train Gunnery Skills which are based on Perception and Willpower, you accrue skill points in Perception and Willpower as a secondary effect. This secondary effect will speed the learning of other skills with those base attributes. e.g 500,000 Gunnery SP yields +1 Perception, 1,000,000 yields +1 Perception and +1 Willpower. Learning the Mechanic based Skills would benefit Intelligence and Memory attributes.

This way, CCP would remove the need for 40 days stagnation of new players yet still have the unique feel of honing a players skills within a specialised field.

Liz Viscious
Caldari
Quantum Pathways
Posted - 2010.06.08 20:08:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
senseless drivel.


That sums up your post quite well, no need to add the rest.

If you consider the game to encourage... not playing/being afk, why on earth would the game exist? It's meant to be played and enjoyed. Even if you're logging in an hour a day to do so then you're still actively involving yourself.

Your argument is a completely fallacious one. I take it you, much like the sumo below your post, have learning skills at V, and i'm happy for you. That said, it's still a god-awful mechanic regardless of how you think the game "is meant to be played" (or not played?).

Conclusion: keep the HTFU/GTFO stuff to yourself, unintelligent trolling is a waste of your valuable afk time.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.08 20:40:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Liz Viscious
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
senseless drivel.


That sums up your post quite well, no need to add the rest.

If you consider the game to encourage... not playing/being afk, why on earth would the game exist? It's meant to be played and enjoyed. Even if you're logging in an hour a day to do so then you're still actively involving yourself.

Your argument is a completely fallacious one. I take it you, much like the sumo below your post, have learning skills at V, and i'm happy for you. That said, it's still a god-awful mechanic regardless of how you think the game "is meant to be played" (or not played?).

Conclusion: keep the HTFU/GTFO stuff to yourself, unintelligent trolling is a waste of your valuable afk time.


At no time ever in the past has your opinion on this subject transcended to the level of fact. It remains simply what it always was: Your opinion on the subject.

I believe its fair to say that my opinion is at least as valid as yours. Said differently, I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are and my opinion is this: You are a pseudo-intellectual nit and you have your knickers in a knot over something that isn't going to change. Your position is outnumbered by the people that want the learning skill tree left alone. Which leaves us precisely where it left us earlier. HTFU or GTFO. Oh and can I have your stuff?

As you were,
PL

Liz Viscious
Caldari
Quantum Pathways
Posted - 2010.06.09 00:45:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: Liz Viscious on 09/06/2010 00:45:27
Just as mature as your corp. name would suggest.

All opinions are not equally valid. If yours were grounded in supportive evidence as well as reasonable, rational, and thoughtful debate... you might have a point. Sadly, this is not the case. You've made it perfectly clear you are more than willing to accept the status quo, and i've explained my understanding of your point of view. I have also made it abundantly clear why that opinion isn't useful. You've failed, on all counts, to adress any part of my logic by anything more than "it's fine, HTFU."

The status quo creates obvious problems for players young and old. There are more than enough iterations of what those problems are already in this thread. I invite you to invest a bit of your afk time reading this thread so you might understand why this is.

Mr Zog
Posted - 2010.06.09 01:14:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Pantload


At no time ever in the past has your opinion on this subject transcended to the level of fact. It remains simply what it always was: Your opinion on the subject.

I believe its fair to say that my opinion is at least as valid as yours. Said differently, I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are and my opinion is this: You are a pseudo-intellectual nit and you have your knickers in a knot over something that isn't going to change. Your position is outnumbered by the people that want the learning skill tree left alone. Which leaves us precisely where it left us earlier. HTFU or GTFO. Oh and can I have your stuff?

As you were,
PL


You want to throw around phrases like "transcended to the level of fact" in your criticisms of people's opinions on this subject, and then go on to state that the learning tree or the way it's handled will never change, without backing up your claim. Maybe it's true. Maybe if you're going to nitpick about the facts you could provide supporting evidence for yours.

You also say that those who disfavor changing the current system outnumber those who don't. What, exactly, are your facts based on? For all anyone knows, either side of this issue could be a vocal minority. I've played this game on and off since maybe about six months after release. Even at that stage, the people that were in since day one/beta would pitch a fit any time someone dared to suggest CCP do something to make the game a little easier on newbies. Every time, they would swear they would quit the game, and that the game wouldn't last another year along with other such nonsense. So excuse me if I don't immediately take you for a concerned player, rather than someone who just can't stand the idea of a new player not having it as hard as they did.

Let's see, if I took everything out of your post that isn't unsupported fact, an insult, or redundant, what would be left over?

Originally by: Pantload


At no time ever in the past has your opinion on this subject transcended to the level of fact. It remains simply what it always was: Your opinion on the subject.

I believe its fair to say that my opinion is at least as valid as yours.
As you were,
PL


You successfully pointed out that people can have different opinions, opinions are not facts, and that yours may be different from theirs, great job!

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.09 09:31:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Pantload
"Leave the damn learning skills alone. Newbs that don't like them need to HTFU or GTFO. Simple as that. The world does not rearrange itself to accommodate you."

And what if it's not just "newbs"? What if the majority of old players also want them out? What if CCP wants them out, eventually?

The world does not rearrange itself to accommodate you either!

Surda Elysium
Posted - 2010.06.09 14:12:00 - [236]
 

Edited by: Surda Elysium on 09/06/2010 14:12:23
Anything that will help newbies get into ships faster and enjoy the game sooner gets my vote. Support the removal of Learning skills from Eve!

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1324024

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.09 15:03:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Pantload
"Leave the damn learning skills alone. Newbs that don't like them need to HTFU or GTFO. Simple as that. The world does not rearrange itself to accommodate you."

And what if it's not just "newbs"? What if the majority of old players also want them out? What if CCP wants them out, eventually?

The world does not rearrange itself to accommodate you either!


Show me the majority of older players who want them removed and I'll concede. I never asked that the world be rearranged to accommodate me ( though its very cute of you to twist my words and turn them back on me). I asked that the world be left just as it is and that you all either Love It or Leave It ( can't say HTFU or GTFO. ya'll turn into whiney little girls over that phrase ). I play within the world as it is now. You *******s are the ones who signed up for this game and now don't want to play by the actual rules of the game. You want the rules of the game changed to suit you. I want this particular game mechanic to be left alone. I don't know if my opinion is minority or majority but its my opinion. Hell, why not have a game-wide vote on the subject and really find out? Would be very interesting to see the results of that poll.

Natalie Caladan
Posted - 2010.06.09 16:45:00 - [238]
 

Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 09/06/2010 17:15:14
Originally by: Pantload
( can't say HTFU or GTFO. ya'll turn into whiney little girls over that phrase ).

Indeed, I don't know about you (I fear the worst) but where I live and work rudeness isn't regarded as a virtue.

Originally by: Pantload
I don't know if my opinion is minority or majority but its my opinion. Hell, why not have a game-wide vote on the subject and really find out? Would be very interesting to see the results of that poll.

Agreed. And perhaps if you look at the linked thread you'll see that CCP also wants to get rid of the learning skills.
As the saying goes: "you're never too old to learn" and "learn from your mistakes"!
Indeed too bad we can't make polls on this forum.

Originally by: Pantload
You want the rules of the game changed to suit you. I want this particular game mechanic to be left alone.

Well it´s of no big importance to me as I've already trained those learning skills, also on my alts. Why assume people are selfish? Does that tell more about you than about me or .. ?
But I don't want other people to have to go through it. Read the linked thread and see that it really discourages new people a lot and in my (and many others') opinion it's totally unneccessary. I want new people to join "my" game and if some things have to be adjusted in order to accomplish that I only encourage that.

Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari
Elder Tribes
Posted - 2010.06.09 18:36:00 - [239]
 

Edited by: Corcyrus Endymion on 09/06/2010 18:39:50
Originally by: Liz Viscious
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
senseless drivel.


That sums up your post quite well, no need to add the rest.

If you consider the game to encourage... not playing/being afk, why on earth would the game exist? It's meant to be played and enjoyed. Even if you're logging in an hour a day to do so then you're still actively involving yourself.

Your argument is a completely fallacious one. I take it you, much like the sumo below your post, have learning skills at V, and i'm happy for you. That said, it's still a god-awful mechanic regardless of how you think the game "is meant to be played" (or not played?).

Conclusion: keep the HTFU/GTFO stuff to yourself, unintelligent trolling is a waste of your valuable afk time.


You are just falling down to the real of utter idiocy. Are you consciously berating yourself like this or does it all just happen?


Me : It should according to your fallacious reasoning.

You: "Your argument is a completely fallacious one."

Comment: Copy paste much?

Me : The whole setup of EvE encourages afk play. Wtf are you smoking? Getting SP while afk, pos bashing while afk, mining while afk, afk missioning, afk trading, gate camping while afk. This entire game is build around being played afk, preferably with multiple accounts.

You : " If you consider the game to encourage... not playing/being afk, why on earth would the game exist?"

Answer : To make money for CCP? Like every other game out there exists solely to make money for their publishers and developers?

Me : Also ,contrary to popular belief ad hominems do not compensate for senseless drivel.

You : "Conclusion: keep the HTFU/GTFO stuff to yourself, unintelligent trolling is a waste of your valuable afk time"

Comment: Not only did I not tell you or anyone else to do anything you just red herring your way into believing I did. And your retort to me denouncing ad hominems is to use some more of them? Don't tell you me you don't know what ad hominems are and still just posted?

You :
Quote:
"senseless drivel."


Comment: Don't copy paste if you run out of steam.




So all in all : Not a single substantial claim made. No proof presented. Just straw men and red herring everywhere you go. Either you are a decent troll yourself or you are simply not mentally grown up enough for reasonable poasting.



As a sneak edit: I finally got them 5/5 on one of 3 accounts. And that's not on my main. The other two accounts are less than 28 days away from 5/5 though. It was a decision: Instead of making isk with missioning and mining like true newbies do, I made a lot with trading and opted for the smart way out. No-one forced me though, no-one put a gun to my head...


Gotekk
Posted - 2010.06.09 19:15:00 - [240]
 

I find it amazing that some people are actually arguing that learning skills enrich the game play experience. I have 5/4 learnings it was the first thing I did and I am surprised I made it past those first few weeks (this was before the increased training time). Players should be out losing ships there first couple of weeks, experimenting with fits, trying a wide range of skill sets to learn what they enjoy...not sink time into getting and additional number tacked on to your attributes.


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