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Surol
Posted - 2010.05.26 12:59:00 - [181]
 

I dont get how i cant catch up.
Is there a level over 5 in skills i dont know about?
In a years time ive almost maxed out T1 BS skills in one race and can fly smaller ships fairly well.
i also have T2 guns and in 2 days drones as well. once the skills max out not much more i can do but start training for a diffrent ship type.

By giving everyone learning skills you only make players that didnt train them but have played for a long time a longer lead. and by taking them out completely you punish people that already trained them. I do agree that the new player creation system is a bit harsh considering most people wont even know what to do when starting. a simple char creation would of been better in my opinion. like "warrior" "Indy" "miner" with static skills you just get.

Eva Wolfe
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:37:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Surol
I dont get how i cant catch up.
Is there a level over 5 in skills i dont know about?
In a years time ive almost maxed out T1 BS skills in one race and can fly smaller ships fairly well.
i also have T2 guns and in 2 days drones as well. once the skills max out not much more i can do but start training for a diffrent ship type.

By giving everyone learning skills you only make players that didnt train them but have played for a long time a longer lead. and by taking them out completely you punish people that already trained them. I do agree that the new player creation system is a bit harsh considering most people wont even know what to do when starting. a simple char creation would of been better in my opinion. like "warrior" "Indy" "miner" with static skills you just get.


If someone been playing for 6 years for example and you have been playing for 1 year you will never catch up in terms of skill points learnt.
So you can fit T2 large turrets to a battleship already after just one year? In one year you would not be able to max out all the skills you need for flying a battleship properly.

I can't see how taking them out would punish anyone as long as like people have said in this post that the sp is returned for use else where.

The creation system is in its simplest form to date. What you are describing is similar to the last character creation method.

Ralic Garzaat
Posted - 2010.05.26 23:23:00 - [183]
 

I wouldn't mind seeing these skills gone and attributes increased, as well. I have them trained 5/5 except the second Charisma skill forgot the name. And my problem with them is not so much the time they take but the whole question that arises for new players: will you keep playing or will you not? If the answer is yes, you should get the skills. If no, you really shouldn't. That's the problem they create.

As a new player I got them really early, and they certainly made training noticeably faster for many things. Fortunately, I'm more or less confident about how long I'll be playing this game. Many players aren't. And I do believe you need a few months to get to know the game. You don't want to be sitting training Learning during those few months.

They are a time sink, and they are not much of a choice, every player will get them at some point. What is their purpose to the game? The best time to train them is also the worst time because newer players have much more motivation to train something else, while older players have tons more stuff to play with but already trained Learning by now.

Not to mention they're also a money sink. If I didn't get a lot of money from my corpmates I wouldn't even be able to do it. I understand EVE is not an instant gratification game by any means but I think Learning crosses the line.

Just my 2 cents. Smile

Swidgen
Posted - 2010.05.26 23:57:00 - [184]
 

Leave them alone just the way they are. I spent a fair number of weeks training them up with the understanding that the payoff I am seeing now (as I approach the break-even point) would forever after let me train other skills at an accelerated rate.

In return for that payback, I knew my actual practical in-game skills would be gimped for a few months, and they most certainly were.

Simply allowing me to re-distribute my Learning Skill SP into other skills doesn't do it for me. To be fair, I would need all those skillpoints PLUS the extra ones for the next year, the year after that, and the year after that, which my training time boost is supposed to give me. Oh... and the year after that.

But we all know Eve isn't fair. Damm straight it's not.... when you get upset that someone else is training skills faster than you, it's time to HTFU.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.05.27 07:44:00 - [185]
 

After reading all this, I recall someone saying that they noticed the starting tutorials and newbie profession agents didn't even mention the Learning skill sets. I think there is a very good reason for that - a newbie shouldn't be focusing on them.

Mind you, in the long run, they are better... and the longer you play the more they pay off. However, starting out on a trial account, you don't exactly have the resources to pay for all 5 advanced books. So taht already limits you to the 5 basic books and maybe one or two advanced books right off the bat. Additionally, completing the profession agents' missions and learning what they provide you, gives you a basic source of general skills that are relatively fast to train and should make up the core of your starting skills as a new player.

Alts are usually made with a purpose in mind and thus have no reason to complain about the Learning skills becasue your purpose, unless it's just a general skill sink, will need primarily just two attributes, maybe a third, and the actual Learning skill. That saves you alot of time rather than skilling up all 5 at once. If you need the others later, simply train them when you'll actually need them.

Back to new players - if they do insist on doing the learnings first or early, than they should use their first remap to boost the speed of the basic books which all use Memory, Intelligence (I believe please correct me if wrong). Than, afterward, use the second for specializing.

Honestly, there is no reason to remove Learning skills AND still gain the bonus 10 to each attribute. If you want the "time sink" gone, than you shouldn't get the benifits of it. Despite your whole "it's a replacement not instant gratification", it is instant gratification. You're completely avoiding two months of training... two months that will easily pay for itself. If they are removed, there should be no attribute replacement - no time spent, no benifit gained... just like every other aspect of the game.

Nonexistent Face
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2010.05.27 08:06:00 - [186]
 

Edited by: Nonexistent Face on 27/05/2010 08:08:33
Originally by: Eva Wolfe
So you can fit T2 large turrets to a battleship already after just one year? In one year you would not be able to max out all the skills you need for flying a battleship properly.


I hope you are trolling.

I'm ALMOST a year old and I can fly an Abaddon with all T2 fitting PLUS I have all Gunnery, Drones, Electronics, Engineering, Mechanic, etc related skills at IV.

Please be trolling...

P.S. You can have a L4 mission runner in 2 months.

P.S.S. Chribba had a 3 week old character in a Rattlesnake tanking all the sentries in Amarr (he was attacking the convoys). That's around 1000+ DPS.

Royaldo
Gallente
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2010.05.27 09:32:00 - [187]
 

wierd, my alt had 16m sp the first year i had her, and there was no advanced spaceship command back then, or ability to change attributes. i had bs5 and t2 guns

Natalie Caladan
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:07:00 - [188]
 

I really get the impression most veterans don't want new players.
I wonder when CCP is going to adjust that since they already stated it's something that they're concerned about (and the whole new player experience in general).

I think the suggestion of 4/3 and no double training is a very good one.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:18:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
If a newbie char wants to fly this: Solo-PvP Rifter

Once you add in the boosted training time for new chars, fitting skills and get relevant support gunnery and support navigation skills to rank 3 (missile supports skills were excluded,) the training time is:
* 34d 7 h 26m Raw, no optimization or learning skills
* 27d 21h 16m with optimized attributes (savings of 6d 10h 10m over raw)
* 19d 13h 32m with optimized attributes plus almost 3 days of learning skills (savings of 8d 7h 34m over optimized attributes)

Three days of sitting on your thumbs training learning skills will save you over eight days of training time. That's a 30% reduction in training time, if you take the time to not play the game for three days!
First of all, there is no reason to complain about the learning skills here; they are actually speeding things up.

Second, there is no rule saying you cannot play the game while training learning skills.

Finally, if you count time until you get what you are training for as time spent twiddling your thumbs, the thumb-twiddle time here is 19d, not 3d, and it's brought down from 27d by the learning skills.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:22:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 27/05/2010 10:25:08
Originally by: Natalie Caladan
I really get the impression most veterans don't want new players.
I wonder when CCP is going to adjust that since they already stated it's something that they're concerned about (and the whole new player experience in general).

I think the suggestion of 4/3 and no double training is a very good one.


I want new players and I cannot remember any of my old school mates saying they didn't either.
Vets want new players, we just don't want the millions of wow types, with their 'I want it now, why should I wait?' attitude.

But I look at the new character situation and wish it was so easy back in the day.
I've even started a new char myself, I'm racing through skills and gaining SP at amazing rates.

I'm not averse to change, but if Learning skills were removed, I would expect to retain the same attributes and be allowed to redistribute the SP from learning.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:29:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Jacqueline Fenring
It's a bit like a long car race
NO
IT
IS
NOT

Natalie Caladan
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:37:00 - [192]
 

Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 27/05/2010 10:38:49
Originally by: Mag's
I'm not averse to change, but if Learning skills were removed, I would expect to retain the same attributes and be allowed to redistribute the SP from learning.

If they'd do away with the 1.6 m double speed and gave 4/3 learning skills instead I'd still be ok with that. If newer players get a 3 weeks headstart because of that - I couldn't care less.
What's 3 weeks on 25 years anyway, about 0.02%?! It's impossible to call that 'I want it now, why should I wait' since you still have like 24 years and 49 weeks left.

If it makes new players stay instead of getting frustrated I think it's a very small price to pay. That what this is mainly about, about not scaring new players away once they learn that 2 months of doing learning skills is the best way to go.

Eva Wolfe
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:59:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: stoicfaux
If a newbie char wants to fly this: Solo-PvP Rifter

Once you add in the boosted training time for new chars, fitting skills and get relevant support gunnery and support navigation skills to rank 3 (missile supports skills were excluded,) the training time is:
* 34d 7 h 26m Raw, no optimization or learning skills
* 27d 21h 16m with optimized attributes (savings of 6d 10h 10m over raw)
* 19d 13h 32m with optimized attributes plus almost 3 days of learning skills (savings of 8d 7h 34m over optimized attributes)

Three days of sitting on your thumbs training learning skills will save you over eight days of training time. That's a 30% reduction in training time, if you take the time to not play the game for three days!
First of all, there is no reason to complain about the learning skills here; they are actually speeding things up.

Second, there is no rule saying you cannot play the game while training learning skills.

Finally, if you count time until you get what you are training for as time spent twiddling your thumbs, the thumb-twiddle time here is 19d, not 3d, and it's brought down from 27d by the learning skills.


Reading your firstly and secondly I can tell you just don't get it. And no matter what anyone says you won't get it.Razz

Aiifa
Pandora Sphere
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2010.06.01 14:30:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Eva Wolfe
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: stoicfaux
If a newbie char wants to fly this: Solo-PvP Rifter

Once you add in the boosted training time for new chars, fitting skills and get relevant support gunnery and support navigation skills to rank 3 (missile supports skills were excluded,) the training time is:
* 34d 7 h 26m Raw, no optimization or learning skills
* 27d 21h 16m with optimized attributes (savings of 6d 10h 10m over raw)
* 19d 13h 32m with optimized attributes plus almost 3 days of learning skills (savings of 8d 7h 34m over optimized attributes)

Three days of sitting on your thumbs training learning skills will save you over eight days of training time. That's a 30% reduction in training time, if you take the time to not play the game for three days!
First of all, there is no reason to complain about the learning skills here; they are actually speeding things up.

Second, there is no rule saying you cannot play the game while training learning skills.

Finally, if you count time until you get what you are training for as time spent twiddling your thumbs, the thumb-twiddle time here is 19d, not 3d, and it's brought down from 27d by the learning skills.


Reading your firstly and secondly I can tell you just don't get it. And no matter what anyone says you won't get it.Razz


Pretty much. Learning skills do speed things up for people who bother to train them. And everyone can have the increased learning speed if all chars get 4/3 or just 5/5 from the start. And that will be nice and fair. And that nice fairness will not ruin eve, because, as you are keen to point out yourself, Crumplecorn:

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Kaya Divine
Linkage
I think I've changed my mind. One of their suggestions is that new players earn the learning skills by doing things - completing epic arcs, getting X kills in faction warfare. Having the learning skills turned into an actual grind by people who apparently haven't got a clue how to play EVE in order to solve a problem which doesn't really exist would be such a fantastic achievement, I can't *not* support it.

While they say themselves they won't actually do that, I hope whatever 'solution' they decide on is equally entertaining.
-- the emotears will be fun, indeed.

You can't play the game if all you've trained so far is learning skills.
You can play the game if you did the 8 hour pvp frig plan, but not much. And if you want to keep playing the game, you're going to be training learning skills. Yes, it is a sandbox. Yes, learning skills do add some degree of specialization (in the sense that there is a ******ed time penalty. The remap system is fine by itself). But, with the whole only certain sets of skillpoints being relevant in any one situation thing, I think it will all turn out just fine. Kill learning skills now. Thumb twiddling doesn't make sense if, when one wants to try out eve, one is told to buy an account, then go away and play counterstrike. For three weeks, at the least.

Dammit, sometimes I like to scoot about in a t1 fit atron and tackle cruisers for lolz. And I do it in an implant-less clone, because I live in null where bubbles are rife. I sacrifice the decrease in the time I have to train to the next important ship that will help out my alliance. Forcing new toons to make the same choice is only going to make new players even less eligible for visiting and trying out the more developed areas of the game where co-operation is necessary.

crimson fire
Posted - 2010.06.03 11:15:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: crimson fire on 03/06/2010 11:16:54
To make it easy for CCP and reasonably fair for all players:

Remove all learning skills. Grant entire player base a period of increased training time to compensate for the lost sp.

Yes, some have more sp in learning than others, but I have a hard time imagining CCP doing the database work required to give each exactly what he will loose.

Send out a mail to all inactive accounts telling them to return and get the speedup, that way a lot of players will return to eve and maybe stay.


Braelyn
Order of Paradox
Posted - 2010.06.03 14:47:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: crimson fire
Edited by: crimson fire on 03/06/2010 11:16:54
To make it easy for CCP and reasonably fair for all players:



I think that kind of mindset is a problem in MMOs. It is surely one thing I am glad of, that EVE isn't as far along such a path as others.

I have heard some people say, "New players have a disadvantage", etc. but it has really always been that way. Learning skills were a pain to learn for older players, as well. But they have made a significant difference for those that choose to learn them early on. Overall things are much easier now for a new player. You can only really become so efficient at one thing, so specialization is the key. To say that new players can never catch up... True statement. But they can still excel at what they choose to accomplish, if they train properly.

Natalie Caladan
Posted - 2010.06.03 15:08:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 03/06/2010 15:11:34
Originally by: Braelyn
but it has really always been that way. Learning skills were a pain to learn for older players, as well.

One of the things that has also changed is that more and more players are already veterans. In the old days things may have been tougher but people were max 2 or 3 years ahead of you. The longer EVE exists, the greater the difference becomes. If you enter EVE and everyone except you flies supercariers and has 30 billion worth of implants and you know you will need 3 years to be on equal terms - I can imagine it's extremely discouraging. Not everyone wants to invest into something that will require years and years. And then it's best to start with 3 months of skilltraining without even knowing how the game will actually be .. ??

No doubt it's one of the reasons the playerbase doesn't really grow a lot an no doubt it's one of the reasons that the players who are in are more than happy to stay.

Braelyn
Order of Paradox
Posted - 2010.06.03 15:53:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Natalie Caladan
And then it's best to start with 3 months of skilltraining without even knowing how the game will actually be .. ??


I agree, it would be hard to actually get a taste of the game now, considering new character creation includes basically no skills. I am not an advocate of maxxing learning straight off. Maybe it would add something if learning skills were removed, but I simply cannot see an easy way to remove them without penalizing those that spent that time early on training them.

I don't agree mechanics should just be changed because certain people feel it should. This could lead to a series of changes that could change game dynamics severely.

Redpoppy
Posted - 2010.06.03 23:24:00 - [199]
 

To everyone here that thinks CCP needs to remove learning skills in order to help newbies or something ridiculous like that: speak for yourself. If I read one day that learning skills are removed, no matter the compensation, I am gone with both accounts. Basically once I see there is no option to help myself with podding with horrendous attribute damage, or that the concept of attributes are made completely trivial as part of the learning skills "fix," I am out at that point.

Because that will signal that the management has made a decision to cheapen the entire game in order to "keep new players coming." I got news for all of you- the game is going to suffer an aging p-base no matter what you do. I've been around the block countless times with all genres of multi-online games and every single one of them eventually suffers an pyramid inversion of their playerbases. It is no different really that the pyramid inversion of modern industrial societies when one day there are almost as many senior citizens as there are young people. Around that time is when the whole demographic pyramid does shrink in size.


Either this is game is going to face that inevitability with dignity, or it's going to go out on a total clownface note. I joined this damn thing a month for its realness. I give a damn about all the lame old-timers being permanently more pimped. What do you expect anyway? So next time you feel self-righteous about doing this for da newbie, you count this newbie out of your inanity.


lame ass fools.

Natalie Caladan
Posted - 2010.06.04 06:51:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Redpoppy
lame ass fools.

I must say your emotional outburts don't make your arguments sound any more solid.
And the argument that "going down in dignity" because new players will get more and more discouraged is preferable to adjusting 0.1% of the skills in the game because that's "intolerably cheap and clownesque" also isn't very strong one.

I don't have the feeling that your two accounts will be severely missed.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.06.04 12:01:00 - [201]
 

As a question to those of you suggesting/supportign the new characters starting at 4/3 learning skills:

What about the older characters who have choosen not to learn them to that level? Should they be penalized for not having done so in the name of helping new players?

I do believe that they should be kept and that it should be each individual's choice to learn them and when. I also support taht the older players will always be ahead unless they just flat out take a break from that character. It's a level of character standign and pride other MMO's don't offer because everyone and their brother can hit the character cap and than everyoen is on the same playign field. Here a character is elite becasue of the time invested... not because of random chance on a specific item dropping.

DrakUggla
Posted - 2010.06.04 13:24:00 - [202]
 

Remove the learning bore all ready! It's something mandatory if playing more than the trail - there's NO strategy involved and there's no real choice. The only choice is to mix up the learning with fun stuff or not so what's the idea of having them any way!

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.04 14:03:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Cash Render
As a question to those of you suggesting/supportign the new characters starting at 4/3 learning skills:

What about the older characters who have choosen not to learn them to that level? Should they be penalized for not having done so in the name of helping new players?



Worst case, yes. Best case, they would be compensated (ex: accelerated training time.) More importantly, the information needed to compensate those who already trained the learning skills should exist in the database which means that CCP can flip everyone to a minimum of 4/3 and figure out how to compensate later.

Quote:
I do believe that they should be kept and that it should be each individual's choice to learn them and when.


For anyone with half a brain, there's no choice in the matter. See my post about how spending the first 3 days of life training learning skills will get you into a PvP Rifter 8 days early (~28 days down to ~19.5 days for a 30% savings in time.)

If a newbie sits in their boring newbie frigate for three days, they can get into a spiffy PvP Rifter 8 days earlier.

IIRC, getting the 4/3 learning skills takes a week of accelerated training time. Given how fast the learning skills pay for themselves, there's no good reason not to spend the first week of game time sitting in your basic frigate while training the learning skills. Which is boring.


Quote:
I also support taht the older players will always be ahead unless they just flat out take a break from that character. It's a level of character standign and pride other MMO's don't offer because everyone and their brother can hit the character cap and than everyoen is on the same playign field. Here a character is elite becasue of the time invested... not because of random chance on a specific item dropping.


Hitting cap or having a few years head start in skill points doesn't make a character elite. Personal skill and cooperation are bigger factors.

New characters can still "catch" old characters via specialization. A veteran can only fly one ship at a time, despite being skilled for a dozen.



Barrak
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.06.04 14:52:00 - [204]
 

Maybe you can combine the two concerns.

Keep the skills in the game, but make some smalla djustments.

Lower the bonus they give to learning other skills, thereby allowing the player to truely decide if they need it or not. HOwever, you can make them a prerequisite for high level skills.

You want level 3 assult ships? then you need (for example) level 3 advanced perception (forget the nam).

You want 'political connections' level 3, then you will need presence level 3 (or whatever).

See where I am going?

For those that have trained the skills, there will be no limits, for those that are new to the game, there will be no need to train them unless they want some advanced skills fairly early!

Barrak

PosterBoyOfNothingMuch
Posted - 2010.06.04 15:28:00 - [205]
 

My advice to new players is always "Get into Destroyers, you'll kick ass at level 1 missions instantly." :P Save learning for when you want to plunk down cash.

I'm four years old and I don't have everything to 5 yet. I don't mind. The system's fine the way it is.

Or maybe we should just start everyone off with T2 weapons and battleships, I mean, they're just going to wind up there anyway in the long run, and we don't want turn off new players by not letting them do every single thing in the entire game immediately, do we?

To hell with the weaklings. What part of "hardcore" don't you understand?

Corina Jarr
Posted - 2010.06.04 16:54:00 - [206]
 

Quote:
there's no good reason not to spend the first week of game time sitting in your basic frigate while training the learning skills. Which is boring.

This is what I don't get. I spent my early days (while training learning skills) flying the earliest missions form the tutorial and career agents. Not once was I anymore bored than I would be had I not learning skills to train. Its not like I played 24hours a day.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.04 17:18:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: PosterBoyOfNothingMuch

To hell with the weaklings. What part of "hardcore" don't you understand?


If you were "hardcore" you would have read the previous six pages of posts and see that your point has been brought up and answered multiple times already.




Little Fistter
Caldari
Ordo Rosa Crux Templaris
Posted - 2010.06.04 17:50:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Viggen
I'd be happy if they removed all the learning skills, and gave +10 to base attributes.
But only if they let me reallocate the 5,376,000 SP's I've invested into learning to wherever I liked Cool



THIS GOOD!

Twisted Evil

Dutschetss Vilhelmena
Caldari
Ordo Rosa Crux Templaris
Posted - 2010.06.04 18:01:00 - [209]
 

Wait... Other genres have a feature called "Levelling". Remember how that works? The more you use your magic skill, the faster it would advance, but no one in those kind of games suggests that the first ten levels should be cast away to make it easier for the new players.

The learning skills keep the children and infantile adults out of the game.

You can't wait a few months to fly a cruiser, bucky? The go play some other game.

Eve is, and always has been a game for the mental elite. If you make it easy we will have an influx of WOW, KOOR, SWG, E&B and LOTR dropouts. You want that?

Eve is an intelligence test. They did not have the intelligence to join four or five years ago? Screw em.

Keep it Hard, Mate!

Aramis Rosicrux
Gallente
Ordo Rosa Crux Templaris
Posted - 2010.06.04 18:19:00 - [210]
 

How about we introduce a way for people to pay real dollars for learning advances?

Give me the chit!
The impatient newbes who can afford it can buy a learning chit like the plex cards, which can be applied for each learning skill. One chit, user can apply it to any of the eleven learning skills. Once applied, the user has Level Five for that skill. The user would have to buy the skill and inject it, at minimum, before they can apply the chit.

This is like buying a diploma at an unethical university... corrupt, but much like the real world.

Just an idea... Laughing and here is another!

Secondary Benefit?
Or how about a secondary benefit to the learning skills to increase the value of those skills?
Say a small bonus to cap total, cap recharge, shield recharge, missle precision, turret tracking based on your level of one of the five attributes?


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