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Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.05.23 11:30:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Guttripper on 23/05/2010 11:30:58
Originally by: Jacqueline Fenring

Well obviously you didn't read the whole thread because sufficient arguments are given already imo.


I replied twice on the first page, twice on the third page, and now a third time on the fifth page (two on the fifth page and now one on the sixth) - nope, I have yet to see a sufficient argument on why the Learning skills _should_ be removed.


Originally by: Jacqueline Fenring

As in all games, new players want to train up their skills as fast as possible. As said before, it takes a year or more to be able to properly pilot and fit an advanced ship, which is extremely long already compared to every other game.


So let's cut to the point and really demand CCP give everyone every skill needed to sufficiently fly Battleship class vessels. Forget the Cruisers and Frigates and all the rank one, two, and three skills - let's maximize every player.


Originally by: Jacqueline Fenring

Training learning skills first simply will give you the most SP and the longer you play, the more it pays off. It's for a reason that veteran players who make alts train up learning skills 1st, it's the fastest way to progress for a character. But if new players do that it is "not needed"? Of course it's not mandatory but in a few years the "learner" has 50% more SP compared to the non-learner. Not doing learning skills = training subpar.


So now the argument becomes more skill points equals a more powerful character? Then when I am doing some market trading, how do I convert all my skill points learned into the Drone, Gunnery, and Spaceship Command skill trees to be more of a benefit compared to a new player that has the same market trading skills?

Higher skill points equates into a pilot having more options and nothing further. Every pilot can not exceed level five in _any_ skill. Learning skills are an option, the same option a pilot has to lean towards mining skills over trade skills, combat skills over invention skills, etc. But people want things now and want an even playing field.

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.23 11:35:00 - [152]
 

There is one other reason of course why some people might want to keep them.

That being, they know those learning skills help keep the population levels lower than what they might be.

After all having less people ingame means less competition over resources better prices on the market.

Captain 'Stache
Posted - 2010.05.23 16:53:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Guttripper


I replied twice on the first page, twice on the third page, and now a third time on the fifth page (two on the fifth page and now one on the sixth) - nope, I have yet to see a sufficient argument on why the Learning skills _should_ be removed.


I think you're *albeit sarcastically* pointing out the reasons yourself. Leveling the playing field (to a small extent, given there are still years of skill-points between a newb and a vet pilot) is an issue, but we aren't talking about making pvp between a 7 year pilot in a tech3 ship vs. a week old newb in a rifter competetive. We're talking about how much the pace of the game slows if you ignore learning skils, and thusly how much of an necessity they are.

For someone who chaimpioned the "maturity" of making people wait I read a lot of teenage angst in your post. "SO YOU WANNA EVEN PLAYIJNG FEELD HUH? OK GIVE EVERY1 TITANZ?> LOLOL" That's completely useless and not what anyone is suggesting.

People just want to see learning skills gone, either taken out entirely while lowering training time on all skills to compensate or baked into the current stats of the player when they start.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.05.23 20:00:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Captain 'Stache

People just want to see learning skills gone, either taken out entirely while lowering training time on all skills to compensate or baked into the current stats of the player when they start.


I have seen three month old pilots running level four missions in battleships. A macro can create a Hulk miner within three months. How many hundreds of titans are floating in the game? Yet people want to speed up learning overall because all the veterans are so advanced! This game is nicknamed Caps Online for a reason now-a-days.

I mentioned in this thread (and others of this nature) that a pilot will _not_ use all their skills for every action in the game. But pilots think more is better. CCP did not envision a pilot to ever ~know~ everything. While CCP has stated they made a mistake adding the Learning skills, why do pilots believe that if CCP removed them, then everyone will gain those attribute points? Since CCP is in it for the cold cash, I can see them remove the Learning skill tree, giving those pilots that learned them a transfer of skill points into other skill groups, and leaving the skills' overall point total as they are currently. So instead of someone today with the option to increase their attributes with a maximum of ten more points per stat, each and every pilot will have to learn every skill at a slower rate due to having stats that will barely break into the teens without implants.

You think players will enjoy gaining approximately half of their yearly skill points if CCP removed the Learning skill tree without any other alteration? And what kind of uproar would players rant next - the game is way too slow?

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.23 20:25:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Guttripper

Since CCP is in it for the cold cash, I can see them remove the Learning skill tree, giving those pilots that learned them a transfer of skill points into other skill groups, and leaving the skills' overall point total as they are currently. So instead of someone today with the option to increase their attributes with a maximum of ten more points per stat, each and every pilot will have to learn every skill at a slower rate due to having stats that will barely break into the teens without implants.



I don't think CCP would be that stupid. Especially since the Devs play the game too. Plus, MMOs need to attract new players to replace losses, and slowing down training time across the board wouldn't help. Newbies don't need to catch up to older players in terms of skills, they just need to become effective quickly enough to get hooked on Eve. (Tyrannis is designed to be usable by newbies, so CCP obviously wants the interest of newbies.)

Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to eliminate the tedium of training the learning skills while still keeping the benefits of the bonus attribute points, and not whether CCP should completely do away with the extra attribute points in order to slow training time down for everyone.


Harrent
Posted - 2010.05.23 21:10:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Harrent on 23/05/2010 21:10:28
Try to think about WHY THESE ARE IN PLACE! They are there because when eve started there were no where near the amount of possible skillpoints there are now! This was sometime ago, so its grown substantially since then, but here a good resource:

http://www.eve-mag.com/wordpress/archives/1214

"To get level 5 in all 366 skills would require 411,648,000 skill points (SP). "- Evemag

Well, assuming that figure rounds to about 411 Million SP you divide that by an average of 2500 sp per hour.

164,400 hours

or

6850 24 hour days

or

19 Years 1 Month 1 Day and 9 Hours.

Worth of training time (with perfect skills / +5's)


This is to get Lvl 5 in ALL skills currently in Eve.

Point is, if you dont train the skills and dont do the right things at the right times you do WORSE than someone who has done more research, put time and effort into their charcter, and, in the end, is better than you.

I for one am glad this exists because it means that those persons with 100 million skillpoints are still fallable and can be beat!

KEEP THE LEARNING SKILLS - Add +6, +7's ... +10 implants to the game!

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.24 00:05:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Harrent
Edited by: Harrent on 23/05/2010 21:10:28
Try to think about WHY THESE ARE IN PLACE! They are there because when eve started there were no where near the amount of possible skillpoints there are now! This was sometime ago, so its grown substantially since then, but here a good resource:

http://www.eve-mag.com/wordpress/archives/1214

"To get level 5 in all 366 skills would require 411,648,000 skill points (SP). "- Evemag

Well, assuming that figure rounds to about 411 Million SP you divide that by an average of 2500 sp per hour.

164,400 hours

or

6850 24 hour days

or

19 Years 1 Month 1 Day and 9 Hours.

Worth of training time (with perfect skills / +5's)


This is to get Lvl 5 in ALL skills currently in Eve.

Point is, if you dont train the skills and dont do the right things at the right times you do WORSE than someone who has done more research, put time and effort into their charcter, and, in the end, is better than you.

I for one am glad this exists because it means that those persons with 100 million skillpoints are still fallable and can be beat!

KEEP THE LEARNING SKILLS - Add +6, +7's ... +10 implants to the game!



If the learning skills were taken out and attributes added 2 characters would not be alike unless they trained the same skills and had the same implants. A miner will never be as good as a fighter pilot in PvP. People will choose different skills which inturn will make the characters different.

If the learning skills had not been put in to start with I doubt very much that anyone would be say can we have learning skills.

The point of taking the learning skills out is to make the game more newbie friendly plus it will help anyone creating an alt as they would not have to pay for an account which they can't play for about 2 months. No one is saying to speed up the rest of the skill tree. And like I've said before because the skills are trained early on it will have little effect on the remainder of the skill tree if they were removed.

Shiho Weitong
Caldari
Koa Mai Hoku
Posted - 2010.05.24 00:11:00 - [158]
 

I can see how learning skills can be a turn-off for some. I saw them as a challenge, and I liked it. And the part about not doing anything the first 2 months is bull...

I just recently started an alt, where i spent the first day getting learnings to 2 and getting some basic skills. The next 14 days or so I trained learnings and flew the tutorials and lvl 1 missions grinding some standing. When the learnings where complete I went for a cruiser and about 3 weeks in I was flying lvl 3 missions in a cruiser. Then I polished off the learnings to 5/5.

But if they are to be removed, which I truly hope they aren't, I have few questions.

Would we be reimbursed SP-wise? (I would hope)

Would we be reimbursed RL time? (I hope so, because even though I get the sp back, it doesn't change the fact that I spent a great deal of RL time training learnings, 2 months gametime would be about right)

Would we get higher base attributes? (I hope not, and why should we?)

The last one might be controversial, but I feel that if we remove the learning skills and up the base, we might as well leave in the learnings. Besides, if the argument this is based on is the so called bad experience with learning skills it has nothing to do with base attributes.

The ones calling for a raise to attributes along with a removal of learnings should play some browser based game, where you can lvl up instantly for cash. That should appeal to your need for instant gratification. Rolling Eyes

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.24 00:19:00 - [159]
 

In the past I've started a new character and was training the learning skills so started to play another MMO whilst training those learning skills. As basically the game stops at that point as I have no interest of doing about 3 months of level 1 missions because when you are training learning skills you can't train anything else.
You can't even mine properly at the start these days with the new creation system.

The result was I got involved in that other MMO and cancelled the Eve account and eventually came back about a year later. So those training skills cost CCP 1 persons subs for a year. And I'm sure that is not an isolated case.

Cate Fenring
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.24 00:21:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Cate Fenring on 24/05/2010 00:44:10
Originally by: Shiho Weitong

The ones calling for a raise to attributes along with a removal of learnings should play some browser based game, where you can lvl up instantly for cash. That should appeal to your need for instant gratification. Rolling Eyes

I find that an extremely childish remark (you're not the only one), as if 28 years minus 2 months suddenly is "instant gratification".
It's really silly to ridicule the call for the removal of the learning skills as a call to get all skills instantly. No-one is proposing the removal of the skill system, just the learning skills.
It's not an argument, it's just degrogative, bullish and childish. And unneccessary. I guess you're very proud of yourself "look at me".
A good argument however - it isn't.

It's already been said repeatedly that in exchange the new players would lose their 1.6 million SP bonus. I may perhaps be a little less than what the learning skills are worth but if you loved skilling up the learning skills so much - why care? Rolling Eyes

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.24 00:30:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Shiho Weitong


The ones calling for a raise to attributes along with a removal of learnings should play some browser based game, where you can lvl up instantly for cash. That should appeal to your need for instant gratification. Rolling Eyes


No one is talking about instant gratification that's just silly talk. Rolling Eyes

This game is too long it's not like people are suggesting they want to fly battleships in a week. Taking learning skills out won't lead to instant gratification of any kind, it would just remove an unneccessarily boring component from the game. Learning skill also differ from all the other skills because they are the only ones where you don't really have much of a choice about when you learn them.

Shiho Weitong
Caldari
Koa Mai Hoku
Posted - 2010.05.24 00:48:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Shiho Weitong on 24/05/2010 00:50:39
Originally by: Cate Fenring
Edited by: Cate Fenring on 24/05/2010 00:24:12
Originally by: Shiho Weitong

The ones calling for a raise to attributes along with a removal of learnings should play some browser based game, where you can lvl up instantly for cash. That should appeal to your need for instant gratification. Rolling Eyes

I find that an extremely childish remark (you're not the only one), as if 28 years minus 2 months suddenly is "instant gratification".
It's really silly to ridicule the call for the removal of the learning skills as a call to get all skills instantly. No-one is proposing the removal of the skill system, just the learning skills.
It's not an argument, it's just degrogative, bullish and childish. I guess you're very proud of yourself "look at me".
A good argument however - it isn't.

It's already been said repeatedly that in exchange the new players would lose their 1.6 million SP bonus. I may perhaps be a little less than what the learning skills are worth but if you loved skilling up the learning skills so much - why care? Rolling Eyes


Yeah ok, that was a bit harsh on my side, I'll admit that. But can you tell me why the attributes should be raised if the learnings are removed?

If we're removing them for the new players, we don't need to up the base stats, as they won't be turned off by waiting stupidly for to months. (which as I stated isn't needed btw.) The two month bore seems to be what people are arguing against... So ok. Remove learnings. Let us redistribute our SP and give us 2 months subs or so and be done with it. But for the love of god, don't proclaim "It's for the newbs!" when you want an increase to base stats.

/arrogance_1
And to the people who replied... I'm glad to see you choose to repeat yourself instead of actually replying to the actual content of my post. It shows that you clearly have no answers to the troubles I pointed out and that you just want attention drawn to yourself.

And do please qoute the point where I said I want the skilling system gone. I said that people who want it all now should play something else. If you have further comments with actual related content go ahead, otherwise STFU and HTFU.
/arrogance_0

Edit: Oh and by the way... Let the newbs keep the 1.6m bonus regardless of wether learnings go away or not... It lets them be effective earlier regardless...

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.24 00:59:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Shiho Weitong
/arrogance_1
And to the people who replied... I'm glad to see you choose to repeat yourself instead of actually replying to the actual content of my post. It shows that you clearly have no answers to the troubles I pointed out and that you just want attention drawn to yourself.
[/quote



If you want points answered it usually works better when the first paragraph you write does not insult those you want answers from.

Cate Fenring
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.24 00:59:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: Cate Fenring on 24/05/2010 01:08:53
-
Ok then ...

Originally by: Shiho Weitong
Would we be reimbursed SP-wise? (I would hope)

It sems fair that the difference between 1.6m SP and the learning skills at V would be compensated, IŽd say in game time.
The learning skills to V is 5,4m SP. So 3.8m SP in time.

Originally by: Shiho Weitong
Would we get higher base attributes? (I hope not, and why should we?)

I think giving everyone 5/5 would be the best way to go, no further changes.

Originally by: Shiho Weitong
And do please qoute the point where I said I want the skilling system gone. I said that people who want it all now should play something else.

"want it all" meaning 2 months out of 28 years at the expense of double speed training is of course a nonsensical comparison.
"want it all" meaning all 28 years instantly actually would make sense but I doubt it that you intended that.

Shiho Weitong
Caldari
Koa Mai Hoku
Posted - 2010.05.24 01:07:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Shiho Weitong on 24/05/2010 01:10:08
Originally by: Jo Ka
Originally by: Shiho Weitong
/arrogance_1
And to the people who replied... I'm glad to see you choose to repeat yourself instead of actually replying to the actual content of my post. It shows that you clearly have no answers to the troubles I pointed out and that you just want attention drawn to yourself.
[/quote



If you want points answered it usually works better when the first paragraph you write does not insult those you want answers from.


I'll settle for people verifying my point. And seriously dude. I clearly marked that out as arrogance. I know I don't have all the end all be all answers. But I did have a few valid points of concern, which is then ignored by the "Remove learnings, but give me higher attributes" crowd, because they have no valid answers.

As I admitted I spewed a bit to harsh a venom in my first post, but I thought I'd just reply to the replies with the same kind of arrogance and disdain as I was confronted with.

Edit: Saw this, and couldn't be arsed to wait 5 mins.

Originally by: Cate Fenring
Edited by: Cate Fenring on 24/05/2010 00:59:36
Ok then ...

Originally by: Shiho Weitong
Would we be reimbursed SP-wise? (I would hope)

It sems fair that the difference between 1.6m SP and the learning skills at V would be compensated, IŽd say in game time.
The learning skills to V is 5,4m SP. So 3.8m SP in time.

Originally by: Shiho Weitong
Would we get higher base attributes? (I hope not, and why should we?)

I think giving everyone 5/5 would be the best way to go, no further changes.




Why should I have to spend time training my 5.6m skillpoints again in any way shape or form?

And again. I would like an argument for raising the attributes if learnings are removed other than "to train faster"

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.24 01:09:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Jo Ka on 24/05/2010 01:20:32
1) Removal of the learning skills.
2) Removal of the 1.6 million 100% learning bonus.
3) Increase in attributes to replace the learning skill attributes (these attributes added so they can be remapped with the normal remapping process).
4) Learning skill sp returned for use elsewhere.


If this increases the learning process it can be slowed by 10% by removing learning skill itself and not replacing it.

The difference in time between learning the skills not to be refunded as this would be too complex.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.05.24 01:16:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Cate Fenring

I think giving everyone 5/5 would be the best way to go, no further changes.


And this sudden bonus in attributes would not be instant gratification?

After nearly four years:
- Should I complain that I started with only around 80,000 skill points, a pocketful of ISK, and a newbie ship?
- I never had the option of a 1.6 million speed skill bonus?
- Until a year or so ago, my starting attributes were not alterable?
- Players that started before me have more skill points and short of them stop training, I will never catch up?
- The advanced learning skills required the basic skills to be learned to level five first.

CCP has shortened the gap between new players and veterans by giving the option of remapping their attributes and the speed bonus. Yet it seems alts are the players complaining loudest about the Learning skills, not pure new characters.

Cate Fenring
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.24 01:34:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Cate Fenring on 24/05/2010 01:49:11
Originally by: Guttripper
And this sudden bonus in attributes would not be instant gratification?

Of course it is. But it's hardly "all instantly". You still can't fly any ship or use any other weapon than the starter ones and your fitting abilities are just as horrible. You still don't have any "tangable" result at all. But you can at least start training these things and not wait in dock for 2-3 months.

Originally by: Guttripper
CCP has shortened the gap between new players and veterans by giving the option of remapping their attributes and the speed bonus. Yet it seems alts are the players complaining loudest about the Learning skills, not pure new characters.

I'm very sorry that you had to go through all that but at least it shows CCP also found out it's not a good way to go as it was before, and they also said that the learning skills hardly were the thing they're most proud of.
Fyi: my "main" character has 5m SP, I'm playing for almost 3 months now, hardly a veteran I'd say. From those 5m SP 50% is learning skills - which I find extremely annoying.

It surprises me that some players are so ultra conservative; why in heaven's name would you want every new player go through that chore? Is it really so hard to understand that's it extremely discouraging?
Even if the learning skills were granted, EVE would be by far the slowest training game that exists. It requires years of dedication to be able to fly some advanced ships. It's really beyond my comprehension why you can't see why at least the most useless grind part of skilling up can't be removed or why you refuse to see that it can hardly be called "instant gratification" when you're still prepared to invest all those years and just want those silly learning skills removed. We're not asking for the whole car, juist a rearview mirror - which suprisingly upsets a few people a lot.

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.24 01:38:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Jo Ka on 24/05/2010 01:48:40
Edited by: Jo Ka on 24/05/2010 01:44:20
Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Cate Fenring

I think giving everyone 5/5 would be the best way to go, no further changes.


And this sudden bonus in attributes would not be instant gratification?

After nearly four years:
- Should I complain that I started with only around 80,000 skill points, a pocketful of ISK, and a newbie ship?
- I never had the option of a 1.6 million speed skill bonus?
- Until a year or so ago, my starting attributes were not alterable?
- Players that started before me have more skill points and short of them stop training, I will never catch up?
- The advanced learning skills required the basic skills to be learned to level five first.

CCP has shortened the gap between new players and veterans by giving the option of remapping their attributes and the speed bonus. Yet it seems alts are the players complaining loudest about the Learning skills, not pure new characters.


It's not a bonus it's a replacement which, stops people having to spend a couple of months just training learning skills. It won't alter things that much as people learn those skills at/near the beginning.

What I can't workout is why you think people will catch you up. It won't happen unless you stop playing.

As for remaps, giving remaps to new players is a bit daft as they are more likely to mess things up. You should get your first remap when your character is 1 year old. I thought that was the reason they did away with the character creation system that was used back in 2005 because people where choosing the attributes incorrectly.

Actually I don't rate the speed bonus they've not given anything away. The previous character creation system (not the 2005 one)I thought was actually better as you started with more skills and in most cases 2 of those were lvl 5. All they did was remove the specialised skills (i.e. mining) and replaced them with 1.6 mill training bonus which is more than the skill value removed but not when you consider you still have to train the skills to get level with the last creation system.

Shiho Weitong
Caldari
Koa Mai Hoku
Posted - 2010.05.24 01:52:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Jo Ka
Edited by: Jo Ka on 24/05/2010 01:44:20
Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Cate Fenring

I think giving everyone 5/5 would be the best way to go, no further changes.


And this sudden bonus in attributes would not be instant gratification?

After nearly four years:
- Should I complain that I started with only around 80,000 skill points, a pocketful of ISK, and a newbie ship?
- I never had the option of a 1.6 million speed skill bonus?
- Until a year or so ago, my starting attributes were not alterable?
- Players that started before me have more skill points and short of them stop training, I will never catch up?
- The advanced learning skills required the basic skills to be learned to level five first.

CCP has shortened the gap between new players and veterans by giving the option of remapping their attributes and the speed bonus. Yet it seems alts are the players complaining loudest about the Learning skills, not pure new characters.


It's not a bonus it's a replacement which, stops people having to spend a couple of months just training learning skills. It won't alter things that much as people learn those skills at/near the beginning.

What I can't workout is why you think people will catch you up. It won't happen unless you stop playing.

As for remaps, giving remaps to new players is a bit daft as they are more likely to mess things up. You should get your first remap when your character is 1 year old. I thought that was the reason they did away with the character creation system that was used back in 2005 because people where chosing the attributes incorrectly.

Actually I don't rate the speed bonus they've not given anything away. The previous character creation system (not the 2005 one)I thought was actually better as you started with more skills and in most cases 2 of those were lvl 5. All they did was remove the specialised skills (i.e. mining) and replaced them with 1.6 mill training bonus which is more than the skill value removed but not when you consider you still have to train the skills to get level with the last creation system.


But why the replacement?

That's what I don't get.

If you wanna do away with learnings for the new players sake, then fine.
If they are removed just let the stats drop down.

Yeah, we'll train slower, but that won't be a problem for the newbs, because they haven't known anything else. It can't be for them you want the increased stats.

Then why?

You've said yourself it's not about instant gratification, so why the insistant demand to have higher attributes if learnings are removed?

Cate Fenring
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.24 02:05:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Shiho Weitong

If you wanna do away with learnings for the new players sake, then fine.
If they are removed just let the stats drop down.
Yeah, we'll train slower, but that won't be a problem for the newbs, because they haven't known anything else. It can't be for them you want the increased stats.
Then why?
You've said yourself it's not about instant gratification, so why the insistant demand to have higher attributes if learnings are removed?

Really I can't take your comment seriously, you're just trolling.

Why not make the game 1,000 times as slow so it takes 5 years to train a single skill? Rolling Eyes
It would definitely attract a lot of players who aren't after "instant gratification" I'm sure ..

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.24 02:05:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Jo Ka on 24/05/2010 02:09:31
Originally by: Shiho Weitong


But why the replacement?

That's what I don't get.

If you wanna do away with learnings for the new players sake, then fine.
If they are removed just let the stats drop down.

Yeah, we'll train slower, but that won't be a problem for the newbs, because they haven't known anything else. It can't be for them you want the increased stats.

Then why?

You've said yourself it's not about instant gratification, so why the insistant demand to have higher attributes if learnings are removed?



Most people would not accept longer training times.

It's not higher attributes it's replacement attributes which means that the training times if all were at 5 would not change. If the learning skills were removed without the attributes being replaced without calcualting it you would probably end up with a skill tree of about 35 years instead of 21.

Edit: Some people might say replace them in the form of implants. But as people are often reluctant to risk implants this is not a great idea also because when not using implants (PvP) training would drop to a snails pace.

Shiho Weitong
Caldari
Koa Mai Hoku
Posted - 2010.05.24 02:17:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Jo Ka
Edited by: Jo Ka on 24/05/2010 02:09:31
Originally by: Shiho Weitong


But why the replacement?

That's what I don't get.

If you wanna do away with learnings for the new players sake, then fine.
If they are removed just let the stats drop down.

Yeah, we'll train slower, but that won't be a problem for the newbs, because they haven't known anything else. It can't be for them you want the increased stats.

Then why?

You've said yourself it's not about instant gratification, so why the insistant demand to have higher attributes if learnings are removed?



It's not higher attributes it's replacement attributes which means that the training times if all were at 5 would not change. If the learning skills were removed without the attributes being replaced without calcualting it you would probably end up with a skill tree of about 35 years instead of 21.


It's not higher than with learnings... We agree. But it's higher than without, and we are talking about removing learning skills afterall.

I can appreciate the sentiments that some people wouldn't like it. Neither would I. But I think it would be better than simply raising the pace at which skills are acumulated on average in the game. 5/5 isn't the norm by any chance, afterall.

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.24 02:41:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Shiho Weitong

It's not higher than with learnings... We agree. But it's higher than without, and we are talking about removing learning skills afterall.

I can appreciate the sentiments that some people wouldn't like it. Neither would I. But I think it would be better than simply raising the pace at which skills are acumulated on average in the game. 5/5 isn't the norm by any chance, afterall.


As most people will learn rank 1 learning skills to lvl 5 and rank 3 learning skills to lvl 4 as quickly as they can it really won't make a lot of difference in the long run. 5/4 is probably the norm although a lot of people have a mix of lvl 4 and lvl 5 rank 3s.

Shiho Weitong
Caldari
Koa Mai Hoku
Posted - 2010.05.24 02:57:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Jo Ka
As most people will learn rank 1 learning skills to lvl 5 and rank 3 learning skills to lvl 4 as quickly as they can it really won't make a lot of difference in the long run. 5/4 is probably the norm although a lot of people have a mix of lvl 4 and lvl 5 rank 3s.


I think we just see things differently and will have to agree to disagree.

The game is not an SP race, so far I do think we agree though. And by that account I would rather have it take longer time to be truly specialized rather than the current FOTM methods of training.

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.24 03:07:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Shiho Weitong
Originally by: Jo Ka
As most people will learn rank 1 learning skills to lvl 5 and rank 3 learning skills to lvl 4 as quickly as they can it really won't make a lot of difference in the long run. 5/4 is probably the norm although a lot of people have a mix of lvl 4 and lvl 5 rank 3s.


I think we just see things differently and will have to agree to disagree.

The game is not an SP race, so far I do think we agree though. And by that account I would rather have it take longer time to be truly specialized rather than the current FOTM methods of training.


I actually like the skill system in this game. But I know for a fact the learning skills do put people off of this game. How many, who knows.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.24 04:43:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Jo Ka

As most people will learn rank 1 learning skills to lvl 5 and rank 3 learning skills to lvl 4 as quickly as they can it really won't make a lot of difference in the long run. 5/4 is probably the norm although a lot of people have a mix of lvl 4 and lvl 5 rank 3s.


Which is why I proposed starting all characters with 4/3 learning skills (level 4 basic, level 3 advanced, level 4 learning). It saves new characters a little over *six* days of accelerated training time. Once they get some experience under their belt and given how long it takes for level 5 learning skills to pay themselves off, they can decide whether or not it's worth training them to 5. Features and Ideas post


Grellek Duval
Posted - 2010.05.24 05:48:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux

Which is why I proposed starting all characters with 4/3 learning skills (level 4 basic, level 3 advanced, level 4 learning). It saves new characters a little over *six* days of accelerated training time. Once they get some experience under their belt and given how long it takes for level 5 learning skills to pay themselves off, they can decide whether or not it's worth training them to 5. Features and Ideas post



That isn't a bad compromise. Starting characters would still have a grind if they wanted to truly optomise, but there would be less overall damage if they decided to run a few other skills up and perhaps dabble in something for a later, more long-term time investment. What I disdain is the problem i've run into. I'm now closing at 1.6mil sp, ive got most of my learning skills still at level 4 and in order to manage that i've had little to no investment at all in actual combat, trading, industry, science, exploration, or any other actual gameplay skills. I dislike the idea that this is "instant gratification," for new players. In-fact, it's no more than an incentive to keep playing the game once your accellerated skill training time is up. The game is harsh enough on new players as it is, there is no need for the artifical stumbling block of mass learning skills to maintain a healthy rate of skill acquisition.


Cate Fenring
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.24 20:40:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Which is why I proposed starting all characters with 4/3 learning skills (level 4 basic, level 3 advanced, level 4 learning). It saves new characters a little over *six* days of accelerated training time. Once they get some experience under their belt and given how long it takes for level 5 learning skills to pay themselves off, they can decide whether or not it's worth training them to 5. Features and Ideas post

I wholeheartedly agree with that proposal.
/signed

Faccat
Posted - 2010.05.26 11:43:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Faccat on 26/05/2010 11:45:50
I've been playing online multiplayer pvp games since 1983 (go mega3* for all you Compuserve users out there). The discussions have been nonstop since they about the difference between being "hard core" and scaring away new players. A good section of the hard core community wants new players to face hardships at every turn. The refrain is always that the established players "earned the right" to stomp the new players. Well, that doesn't make for a good game and it scares off new blood to the actual game. An example of this is in Warcraft right now. There are battlegrounds for levels 10-19. Of course, if you are a new player (even level 19), you can expect to be slaughtered by guilds running full gear that they have "earned the right" to use. Now nobody can be found in those battlegrounds.

This brings me to a good reason to make some change to the learning skills. If a new player starts, they are immediately hit with the opportunity costs when training learning skills. This opportunity cost isn't merely that they aren't training something else, the larger cost is that *they aren't playing the game*. So from the first second of game play, the new player has to choose between what is best for his character and getting to actually use basic components on his ship. We'll never know how many would be players have made a trial account, followed a guide on how to start their character and quit in the first week because "nothing happens".

I would suggest that older players have lost their perspective. Older players are a self selecting group who made that choice years ago to continue playing. Now, you can go on believing that everyone will sign into that trial account already knowing they want to stick with the game but it really doesn't work that way.

Every other skill in the game has game play associated with it, but learning really doesn't. The only "play" feature of the learning skills is the gamble whether the time saved from the will result in time savings over the course of the account. The cost is not getting on with the actual game and the reward is seen months or years down the road. I'm sure there is some calculation out there detailing exactly how much savings there is from every skill learned. But the point is that a beginning player is being asked to bet on how long they will be playing the game when they have to decide how far they'll go with their learning skills.

The bonus time to 1.6mil SP is a decent start but doesn't overcome the choice between playing off the bat or doing what's best for the character.

So my point is that there needs to be a point to doing the learning skills other than "we had to do it, so you should too."

A different proposal for a solution:
Allow 2 characters to skill simultaneously to 1.6m SP. One to experiment with and one to do "right". Of course, established players would then want 1.6m on an alt I'm sure.



*Megawars III exists again in a total rewrite. It is the only game that comes close to Eve Online as far as that "kick to the groin" feel when losing...well except for those games where kicks to the groin actually occur.


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