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Cate Fenring
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.19 21:57:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: IoWalker
why are so many of you people complaining about learning skills & new players, as if time for training LS is going to matter to a new player in a game where it takes 2 years before you can even fully master one single ship, industry, or invention activity?
tell you what, for all you anti-LS whiners: I hope EVE both removes LS from the skillset and keeps LS for anyone who's trained them. suddenly you will see how stupid this whole mental rant has been as people legitimately scream for LS brought back.

Well I guess CCP (and you) don't want new players then. There isn't a game that requires as much patience (afaik) - I mean TWO YEARS to master a ship - this isn't university!?? .. and those learning skills on top of that are really a bit too much. You may not understand but I'm not surprised EVE hadn't got more than ~60k active players.

But well, I already found out this community is extremely conservative, sorry to say it but honestly it feels that if it was up to you we'd still live in the stone age. ugh

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2010.05.19 22:57:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Cate Fenring
There isn't a game that requires as much patience (afaik) - I mean TWO YEARS to master a ship - this isn't university!?? .. and those learning skills on top of that are really a bit too much.
In my opinion, this is one of the things that makes EVE great, weeding out immaturity and keeping a more dedicated, loyal player base. Without EVE's skill system, I wouldn't still be playing.

Cate Fenring
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.19 23:13:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Tripoli
Originally by: Cate Fenring
There isn't a game that requires as much patience (afaik) - I mean TWO YEARS to master a ship - this isn't university!?? .. and those learning skills on top of that are really a bit too much.
In my opinion, this is one of the things that makes EVE great, weeding out immaturity and keeping a more dedicated, loyal player base. Without EVE's skill system, I wouldn't still be playing.

I'm not sure if excessive patience and maturity are equivalent features but if you say so ...
And {dedcicated, loyal} versus {big, good for CCP income}? Well I suppose you're one of those that rather have EVE never change and with juist 40k players ...

Anyway. This is about learning skills, not EVE's skill system (which has its plusses and minusses imho). Not sure if those learning skills make the game "great". Afaik CCP isn't too proud of those either.

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2010.05.20 00:01:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Cate Fenring
And {dedcicated, loyal} versus {big, good for CCP income}? Well I suppose you're one of those that rather have EVE never change and with juist 40k players ...
CCP has the find the balance between {dedcicated, loyal} and {big, good for CCP income}. Without one, you cannot have the other. I know my industry within the game would suffer greatly if there waeren't fresh players filtering into the game. Everyone would suffer. I played the game when there were only 2,000 people online at any given time. It was a very different place. The ever-growing population is what makes EVE's player-driven economy thrive.
Originally by: Cate Fenring
Anyway. This is about learning skills, not EVE's skill system (which has its plusses and minusses imho). Not sure if those learning skills make the game "great". Afaik CCP isn't too proud of those either.
I couldn't claim to believe the learning skills make the game great (though they were my favorite skills to train), but I do believe they add another role playing dimension to this role-playing game. Much like projectile weapons or Gallentean battleships, I see the learning skills as just another specialization within EVE.

I feel the key to solving the so-called "problem" of learning skills, is to find a way to make players feel like they aren't required. As I've stated in other threads, I believe a possible solution is the release of even more learning skills, and the return of the original, higher prerequsites for the advanced learning skills. The payoff time for these skills would be even worse than that of the advanced learning skills (over 5 years if the skills are Rank 5), thereby discouraging people from focusing as much attention on the learning skills, especially when first starting the game because of the length fo time to max out all the learning skills.

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.20 01:09:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Tripoli
Originally by: Cate Fenring
And {dedcicated, loyal} versus {big, good for CCP income}? Well I suppose you're one of those that rather have EVE never change and with juist 40k players ...
CCP has the find the balance between {dedcicated, loyal} and {big, good for CCP income}. Without one, you cannot have the other. I know my industry within the game would suffer greatly if there waeren't fresh players filtering into the game. Everyone would suffer. I played the game when there were only 2,000 people online at any given time. It was a very different place. The ever-growing population is what makes EVE's player-driven economy thrive.
Originally by: Cate Fenring
Anyway. This is about learning skills, not EVE's skill system (which has its plusses and minusses imho). Not sure if those learning skills make the game "great". Afaik CCP isn't too proud of those either.
I couldn't claim to believe the learning skills make the game great (though they were my favorite skills to train), but I do believe they add another role playing dimension to this role-playing game. Much like projectile weapons or Gallentean battleships, I see the learning skills as just another specialization within EVE.

I feel the key to solving the so-called "problem" of learning skills, is to find a way to make players feel like they aren't required. As I've stated in other threads, I believe a possible solution is the release of even more learning skills, and the return of the original, higher prerequsites for the advanced learning skills. The payoff time for these skills would be even worse than that of the advanced learning skills (over 5 years if the skills are Rank 5), thereby discouraging people from focusing as much attention on the learning skills, especially when first starting the game because of the length fo time to max out all the learning skills.



I get the impression that more people just see them as a complete waste of time, as do I. I have a character learning the learning skills at this moment which is why I've been spending a fair bit of time on the forums because quite frankly the forums are more interesting at this present time.

Macvombat
Posted - 2010.05.20 11:10:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Macvombat on 20/05/2010 11:10:25
As much as i hate to bring this up.. i feel that it has to be done..
Lets look at WoW, not sure how many of you are familiar with it from back in the days but this is quick markup of what happened
WoW was a game for a small community (relatively small), a good game too, at least that's what i think.. as the numbers grew Blizzard started thinking more and more about money and to grab more players and keep them they lowered the difficulty - ruling out the fact that kids and impatient people wouldn't play.. and all that is left now is a steaming pile of junk if you ask me!

Eve has a small player base because not many can be bothered to sit around doing nothing while you train for your ships - if you play the game like that.. well.. you suck, im sorry, but Eve is not meant to be played skill by skill, if you only enjoy eve when you get a new ship you shouldn't be playing eve cause once you get your first BS there's gonna be quite far between the ships.. and honestly? it might be 2 years before you can call yourself specialized in a ship but it sure as hell ain't gonna be 2 years before you can actually do something in the game.. please wake up and acknowledge the fact that EVE would suck balls in hell if we removed the current skill system (wich to me, it sounds like you want to) spending a month on training skills is NOT a long time..

Edit: Come to think of it my tone was rather harsh - am sorry if i stepped on someones toes

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.20 15:26:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Jo Ka on 20/05/2010 15:29:09
Originally by: Macvombat
Edited by: Macvombat on 20/05/2010 11:10:25
As much as i hate to bring this up.. i feel that it has to be done..
Lets look at WoW, not sure how many of you are familiar with it from back in the days but this is quick markup of what happened
WoW was a game for a small community (relatively small), a good game too, at least that's what i think.. as the numbers grew Blizzard started thinking more and more about money and to grab more players and keep them they lowered the difficulty - ruling out the fact that kids and impatient people wouldn't play.. and all that is left now is a steaming pile of junk if you ask me!

Eve has a small player base because not many can be bothered to sit around doing nothing while you train for your ships - if you play the game like that.. well.. you suck, im sorry, but Eve is not meant to be played skill by skill, if you only enjoy eve when you get a new ship you shouldn't be playing eve cause once you get your first BS there's gonna be quite far between the ships.. and honestly? it might be 2 years before you can call yourself specialized in a ship but it sure as hell ain't gonna be 2 years before you can actually do something in the game.. please wake up and acknowledge the fact that EVE would suck balls in hell if we removed the current skill system (wich to me, it sounds like you want to) spending a month on training skills is NOT a long time..

Edit: Come to think of it my tone was rather harsh - am sorry if i stepped on someones toes


WoW is a different thing totally to Eve. The original WoW was made easier as they added their expansions. The reason they made 1 - 60 easier was so that new characters could progress quicker so that they could access the new content quicker (expansion, which for the most part was just another bolt on game). At the same time they changed the elites in the original game (Not instance ones)to non-elites to make quests easier to do the logic behind that was so that solo players could complete them because the player base was top heavy with high levels.

They also dumbed it down a bit when the second expansion came out for much the same reasons. The new expansion is revisiting the old part of the game so maybe they have realised their mistake.

As for the learning skills in this game, the removal of them will not change anything other than making it less boring at the start of the game. It won't affect anything else. When you are training skills that are weeks and months long the learning skills look insignificant as most people would have learned most of them by then. But they are not insignificant when at the start of the game as they hinder your character progression in what your character can do making the game kind of boring for a month or two. Which is certainly a bad time to give the game that impression.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.20 19:20:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: IoWalker
why are so many of you people complaining about learning skills & new players, as if time for training LS is going to matter to a new player in a game where it takes 2 years before you can even fully master one single ship, industry, or invention activity?



Because it does matter. It matters for even the first month of play. Would you rather spend nearly 28 days training a PvP Rifter, or ~19.5 days?

If a newbie char wants to fly this: Solo-PvP Rifter

Once you add in the boosted training time for new chars, fitting skills and get relevant support gunnery and support navigation skills to rank 3 (missile supports skills were excluded,) the training time is:
* 34d 7 h 26m Raw, no optimization or learning skills
* 27d 21h 16m with optimized attributes (savings of 6d 10h 10m over raw)
* 19d 13h 32m with optimized attributes plus almost 3 days of learning skills (savings of 8d 7h 34m over optimized attributes)

Three days of sitting on your thumbs training learning skills will save you over eight days of training time. That's a 30% reduction in training time, if you take the time to not play the game for three days!

For even the first month of a character's life, the training skills make a huge impact! Which is why newbies are told to train the learning skills first.

Time Spent Idle & Accelerated Training Time
Another reason for training the learning skills right away is because of the accelerated training bonus that new characters get. If you blow off Charisma and get the other skills to 4/3, you're looking at 5d 6h 33m of idle time (or 4d 6h 50m if you optimize attributes.) If put off the learning skills and lose the accelerated training time, you risk doubling your "sitting on my thumbs, waiting on learning skills" time.

ugh


IoWalker
Posted - 2010.05.21 02:15:00 - [129]
 

At this point in time you should probably ask yourself why you really think this issue is as gravitational as you think it to be. Is it your desire to take away avenues of approaching someone's character trumping the actual important of this "problem"?


I would like to point out the number of hypocrites in this thread who want LS gone yet they've maxed them and are veterans. Do you understand the sheer asshattery of that? "We're doing it for the children..."


And finally, of all real issues facing EVE, trying to compare LS to fleet lag, invention mechanics, and the actual time it takes regardless to be really good at something, LS is such a non-issue that this entire thing should be seen as the manufactured hype that it is.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.21 03:16:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: IoWalker
At this point in time you should probably ask yourself why you really think this issue is as gravitational as you think it to be. Is it your desire to take away avenues of approaching someone's character trumping the actual important of this "problem"?


As previously mentioned in the thread, the learning skills are new player unfriendly. Vets, aka loyal paying players, aren't the issue. It's the undecided newbies playing the 14-day trial or who are on their first month.


Quote:
I would like to point out the number of hypocrites in this thread who want LS gone yet they've maxed them and are veterans. Do you understand the sheer asshattery of that?


You misunderstand. When people say "remove" the learning skills, they mean to keep the benefits without requiring the boring "sit on your thumbs while training the learning skills." Example: Automatically give new characters the learning skills. No one is saying to remove the learning skills entirely, thus slowing down everyone's training times.


Quote:
"We're doing it for the children..."


We're doing it for the newbies, aka fresh blood.


Quote:
And finally, of all real issues facing EVE, trying to compare LS to fleet lag, invention mechanics, and the actual time it takes regardless to be really good at something, LS is such a non-issue that this entire thing should be seen as the manufactured hype that it is.


The devs have publicly stated that the learning skills were a bad idea, and they haven't decided on the best way to get rid of them. Learning skills affect new player subscriptions which affects CCP's income which affects having enough $$ to improve server resources or to hire devs to fix existing problems.

The learning skills aren't fun. The learning skills provides benefits that are too great to be skipped or delayed, which anyone with access to Evemon will quickly realize. It's one thing to grind up Cruiser V. It's quite another to spend the first week of a new character's life grinding up the learning skills. That week of training will quickly pay for itself, but most folks consider it odd to play a game that "requires" not playing the game for a week.



Adam Weishaup
Posted - 2010.05.21 03:26:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Adam Weishaup on 21/05/2010 03:28:13
Why attempt to be an arbiter of what any newbie would want/desire and what he would face with the sheer training time of mastering a ship alone? Are you honestly saying that LS is as much of a turn-off to this game as training time is in general? And what about if the newbie takes the shortest path to a ship and gets pwned regardless? Then what, you've taken a path away from people and most likely you are a hypocrite veteran to begin with, and finally nothing gets solved.


All that actually needs to be solved is low-null sec fleet lag and real game mechanics of that nature to let the newbies you pretend to lament so much but they are really crocodile tears to see how much they need trained. Who gives a flying eff about newbies turned off by training time. You obviously were not. And to begin with, that's not what this game is about.

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.21 07:32:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Jo Ka on 21/05/2010 07:55:14
Originally by: Adam Weishaup
Edited by: Adam Weishaup on 21/05/2010 03:28:13
Are you honestly saying that LS is as much of a turn-off to this game as training time is in general?


Nope, no one is saying that, skill training times are not the issue here. The learning skills times are, and the fact they really are not needed as they can be replaced easily. And yes they are a turn off at the beginning of the game I've started another character and it's in training learning skills now leaving me little to do as the skills the character needs are not being trained because the times being taken up by learning skills.


Originally by: Adam Weishaup

And what about if the newbie takes the shortest path to a ship and gets pwned regardless?


That's the newbies choice, not sure what you are getting at here, but doing learning skills at the beginning really amounts to no choice.


Originally by: Adam Weishaup

Then what, you've taken a path away from people and most likely you are a hypocrite veteran to begin with, and finally nothing gets solved.?


Learning skills are not a path, they are in fact a dead end. Might be considered a path if you're the sort of person who likes to watch paint dry.


Originally by: Adam Weishaup

All that actually needs to be solved is low-null sec fleet lag and real game mechanics of that nature to let the newbies you pretend to lament so much but they are really crocodile tears to see how much they need trained. Who gives a flying eff about newbies turned off by training time. You obviously were not. And to begin with, that's not what this game is about.


You obviously don't, rather short sighted of you.

I don't think the new system with the 1.6 mill 100% training helps either, as before at least you could start as a fighter pilot or miner with reasonable skills to go with it. Now you start with some basic general skills and 1.6 mill training bonus to spend on skills of your choice. Some choice most of them end up going into learning skills.


Edit: If the learning skills where taken out and the attributes points added in their place, then the 1.6 mill sp training bonus could also be removed as you would have your bonus from the added attribute points.

I've had about 8 characters in Eve (over 4 accounts)and I know it puts some people off. I've had 2 failed characters both failed at two different times because of the learning skills, got over halfway training them whilst having a boring time in game as the character could not progress. So effectively I said s** this and left the game for awhile to do something more interesting in another MMO.

As far as I can see the learning skills where only originally put in as a time sink to stop characters from progressing too quickly, but that time sink is no longer needed.

Adam Weishaup
Posted - 2010.05.21 07:41:00 - [133]
 

LS are just dead-end permanent chips in your head no matter how many times you die in 0-sec and cant be bothered to re-up all or any one of your implants.


yeah that.


But right, LS are the #1 rentention issue of the game also, huh? You make me throw up a little more each time.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.21 08:42:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux


We're doing it for the newbies, aka fresh blood.




Malcanis' Law: Whenever someone proposes making a game change "for the newbies", that change will always be to the greater advantage of richer, older players.

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.21 08:52:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: stoicfaux


We're doing it for the newbies, aka fresh blood.




Malcanis' Law: Whenever someone proposes making a game change "for the newbies", that change will always be to the greater advantage of richer, older players.


In this case it would if they create a new alt.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.05.21 19:30:00 - [136]
 

If CCP were to remove the Learning Skill tree _and_ give everyone ten extra attribute points per stat, then as a balance, I can see them doubling the time requirement for all the remaining skills.

Lhun
Amarr
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2010.05.21 21:16:00 - [137]
 

my only acceptible final solution is this:

Give everyone full learning skills from the beginning.
Give every player the training TIME LOST to train them to whatever level they had them at in the form of PLEX + A bonus goodie for being old and l33t - like a special one-time free character remodel (I'm sure we can think of better things)

Problem solved.

Lhun
Amarr
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2010.05.21 21:23:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Lhun
my only acceptible final solution is this:

Give everyone full learning skills from the beginning.
Give every player the training TIME LOST to train them to whatever level they had them at in the form of PLEX + A bonus goodie for being old and l33t - like a special one-time free character remodel (I'm sure we can think of better things)

Problem solved.

Oh, wait, I just realized somepeople will be butthurt about losing 5+ mil skillpoints they could have put elsewhere if they were new. Give people the option then. PLEX OR "Skill tickets" which will advance any skill to a level or partial level until depleted. done.

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.21 23:47:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Jo Ka on 21/05/2010 23:48:41
Originally by: Guttripper
If CCP were to remove the Learning Skill tree _and_ give everyone ten extra attribute points per stat, then as a balance, I can see them doubling the time requirement for all the remaining skills.


Lol

The fact that the learning skills are done at the beginning or very near the beginning (except rank 3 lvl 5 learning skills) means that it will hardly have an impact on the rest of the skill tree CCP won't even have to adjust the rest of the tree to compensate for the change. So what if the skill tree is shortened by 6 months when it's 21 years long at the moment. No one will even notice. Do you think you will still be playing in 21 years time? Plus the skill tree is growing anyway.

Jacqueline Fenring
Posted - 2010.05.22 07:03:00 - [140]
 

It's clear that a lot of people suffer from cognitive dissonance, trying to justify things they have done even though they're utter nonsense. We're never good at admitting that we sometimes do things that are actually not so great.

I think the only viable solution is to remove learning skills, give all new players 5/5 and take away the double learning. It will get rid of the discouraging learning skills chore and also give a much more realistic first impression to all new players.
Add to that more and better tutorials and well get a lot more players who don't quit playing because they're totally lost and don't see paying 2 months of subscription for training silly learning skills training alone as a very encouraging start to their career.

IoWalker
Posted - 2010.05.22 08:32:00 - [141]
 

Yep. Removing permanent implants from null-sec and low-sec is the answer. Assuredly.



People are just going to keep making this a "problem" until it gets "fixed."

Complete mental ************.

Captain 'Stache
Posted - 2010.05.23 03:28:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Jacqueline Fenring
It's clear that a lot of people suffer from cognitive dissonance, trying to justify things they have done even though they're utter nonsense. We're never good at admitting that we sometimes do things that are actually not so great.

I think the only viable solution is to remove learning skills, give all new players 5/5 and take away the double learning. It will get rid of the discouraging learning skills chore and also give a much more realistic first impression to all new players.
Add to that more and better tutorials and well get a lot more players who don't quit playing because they're totally lost and don't see paying 2 months of subscription for training silly learning skills training alone as a very encouraging start to their career.



As a new player myself, I have to agree with this. I haven't heard a compelling argument in this (or other) threads on the topic to convince me that learning skills are a necessary evil. There seems to be a strong sentiment out there (understandably so), that older players went through this gauntlet of a time-sink for efficient skilling, and so it is only fair that new pleyers experience the same grind.

While I don't disagree that compensation for players who made it through the huge amount of learning skills already, I can't comprehend this as a non-issue, or the idea that learning skills are "free implants," that are somehow a good thing.

I've been active almost a month, and most of that time has been spent training learning skills. I haven't been able to really explore any aspect of the game to see what i want to pursue because i'm compelled to get the learning skills done before I attempt to specialize further. While I have found a small community in-game to make this slow-time bearable, I can certainly see how this would drive off a lot of potential eve players.

In short, I don't pretend to know (new as I am) what a proper solution is here, but to preted there is not a problem for future growth and sustaining the population of the game seems very narrow minded indeed.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.05.23 06:00:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Captain 'Stache
(Snipped...)
While I don't disagree that compensation for players who made it through the huge amount of learning skills already, I can't comprehend this as a non-issue, or the idea that learning skills are "free implants," that are somehow a good thing.


If you plan upon playing this game longer than a year, the whole Learning skill tree will become a small slice of your overall skill points. As of this writing, it is _only_ 7.5% of my total skill points, which are still being a benefit.


Originally by: Captain 'Stache

I've been active almost a month, and most of that time has been spent training learning skills. I haven't been able to really explore any aspect of the game to see what i want to pursue because i'm compelled to get the learning skills done before I attempt to specialize further. While I have found a small community in-game to make this slow-time bearable, I can certainly see how this would drive off a lot of potential eve players.


Why? Why?? WHY??? Where does it state anywhere when you first start playing the game does it claim you HAVE to train the Learning skills over any other skill? I started a brand new character earlier this year. While I purposely went the whole Learning skill tree route, I also went through the starter missions for brand new pilots. NOWHERE did it ever state "You better learn all those Learning skills first or you'll be screwed later." Not one starter agent gave a Learning skill book as part of a mission or reward.


Originally by: Captain 'Stache

In short, I don't pretend to know (new as I am) what a proper solution is here, but to preted there is not a problem for future growth and sustaining the population of the game seems very narrow minded indeed.


What I find quite ironic is most of those pilots complaining about the Learning skill tree have taken the route that offers the biggest Perception / Willpower combination over Charisma ala Achurian avatars and that ilk. For apparently "brand new pilots", it is quite interesting these same people ~know~ that Charisma is not used for much, save for Leadership and Trade skills.

Neffer Abandon
Posted - 2010.05.23 06:32:00 - [144]
 


i think there is hypocricy from the veteran players who noticed that their alt leveling takes to much time in their opinion. Basically they want instant graduation and change the game in their favor.
On top of this they are telling the new players they should only learn learning skills first.
It is very easy to find a usefull path which considers learning skills but also the skills you need for whatever proffesion. Only veterans have the idea to learn only learning skills first because they dont need the isk for their new alt.

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2010.05.23 08:01:00 - [145]
 

I got all except charisma to a 5/5 setting.

I wouldn't moan too loud if CCP cancelled the learnings skills at all, but BECAUSE some people spent MONTHS doing those 5/5's it would be unfair if everyone from now just got them out of the blue.

What I'm proposing is three things happening at the same time:

1. All players get a 1 month period (before a next patch when the learnings will be removed) when they need to select a number of skills they want SP to be transfered to. All learnings get to be transfered to those skills after patch gets put down. You could for example not ask for specific skills if that was too complicated, but ask for filling the SP towards certain certificates.
2. During the patch DT all the learning SP are beeing transfered to the chosen SP groups, everybody gets a learning bonus equal to maxed out learning skills. Learning skill books are removed from market.
3. IF you were not online, or had an inactive account or whatever reason that caused you not to be capable of chosing the skills within the month before patch you also lose the Learning skills,you get the bonus and when you are finally there you need to sort that out via petition to the GMs. That can take loads of time, sure, but it'd be unfair if somebody just lost 5m sp just because he wasn't active during a month.

Jacqueline Fenring
Posted - 2010.05.23 08:20:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Jacqueline Fenring on 23/05/2010 08:34:54
Originally by: Guttripper
Why? Why?? WHY??? Where does it state anywhere when you first start playing the game does it claim you HAVE to train the Learning skills over any other skill? I started a brand new character earlier this year. While I purposely went the whole Learning skill tree route, I also went through the starter missions for brand new pilots. NOWHERE did it ever state "You better learn all those Learning skills first or you'll be screwed later." Not one starter agent gave a Learning skill book as part of a mission or reward.

Well obviously you didn't read the whole thread because sufficient arguments are given already imo.

As in all games, new players want to train up their skills as fast as possible. As said before, it takes a year or more to be able to properly pilot and fit an advanced ship, which is extremely long already compared to every other game.

Once you get to learn about learning skills it's obvious that investing into learning skills will always pay off in the long run - the sooner you start learning them, the more benefit you will receive from them.
It's a bit like a long car race, if you spend some more time to tune it in the garage instead of immediately go out to race in a slow car you'll eventually catch up with everyone. Or go to school first so your monthly salary will be a guaranteed 50% higher. You have to be foolish not to want that even if it's a chore.

Training learning skills first simply will give you the most SP and the longer you play, the more it pays off. It's for a reason that veteran players who make alts train up learning skills 1st, it's the fastest way to progress for a character. But if new players do that it is "not needed"? Of course it's not mandatory but in a few years the "learner" has 50% more SP compared to the non-learner. Not doing learning skills = training subpar.

I consider the fact that Çareer Agents don't even mention them more as a(nother) serious flaw in CCP's way to handle new players than anything else.

Originally by: Dr Karsun
I wouldn't moan too loud if CCP cancelled the learnings skills at all, but BECAUSE some people spent MONTHS doing those 5/5's it would be unfair if everyone from now just got them out of the blue.


Removal of the 1.6 million double speed already (partially? I haven't done a calculation) compensates for that. But even if they were removed without further compensation except doing away with the 1.6m period I'd be satisfied that at least the game has become more newbie friendly - and if I'd want to make another alt it would at least start off training useful skills instead of 2 months of learning skills -.-

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.23 08:23:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Captain 'Stache


I've been active almost a month, and most of that time has been spent training learning skills. I haven't been able to really explore any aspect of the game to see what i want to pursue because i'm compelled to get the learning skills done before I attempt to specialize further. While I have found a small community in-game to make this slow-time bearable, I can certainly see how this would drive off a lot of potential eve players.


Why on earth would you do such a foolish thing? Shocked

Natalie Caladan
Posted - 2010.05.23 08:28:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Why on earth would you do such a foolish thing? Shocked

Because in the long run it's the smartest thing to do. He's not the only one who found out it is.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.23 08:37:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Jacqueline Fenring


As in all games, new players want to train up their skills as fast as possible. As said before, it takes a year or more to be
able to properly pilot and fit an advanced ship, which is extremely long already compared to every other game.


Whoever told you this is a fool or a liar or both.

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.23 11:21:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Jo Ka on 23/05/2010 11:23:29
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Jacqueline Fenring


As in all games, new players want to train up their skills as fast as possible. As said before, it takes a year or more to be
able to properly pilot and fit an advanced ship, which is extremely long already compared to every other game.


Whoever told you this is a fool or a liar or both.


Is that all you can do, troll with one liners.

There has been lots of reasons put forward for why the learning skills should go but no real reasons to keep them. Other than we did them so everyone else should kind of replys.

People do try to develop their character to a point where it can do something ingame that is useful as quickly as possible. If they did not they would soon get bored with a game.


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