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Francais Tempest
Gallente
White Knights Imperius
Posted - 2010.05.09 23:45:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Francais Tempest on 09/05/2010 23:44:54
Originally by: BearJews
As a player that just started a couple of months ago, i don't see the big deal. Learning about learning actually helped develop my knowledge of the game, and i feel like it's something we all go through. Sure you can get rid of it and make this game more enticing to new players, but regardless of learning it still takes a LONG time to skill up. Removing learning, relative to playability of this game (your career in this game) seems negligible.

Same here. I have no problem spending time on learning. Especially as a college student, I have days when I can't access Eve (for more than a few seconds), and learning is wonderful. In fact, I have had no "wasted" time learning, because I wouldn't have been playing while learning anyway.

I feel there are much more urgent problems than the learning skills.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.05.10 10:03:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Osric Wolfe
Learning skills do take up too much time especially on an account for an alt where you are paying more than a month in subs just to have the privilege to log on and change learning skills. Hardly seems like good value for money. Especially in light of only being able to train 1 character at a time per account. I'm sure new people would also much prefer to train skills that they can use in combat and are useful to miners etc. rather than just waiting for learning skills to finish.

Then do not train them. Is this so difficult?

Osric Wolfe
Posted - 2010.05.10 10:11:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Then do not train them. Is this so difficult?


Do not train alts or do not train learning skills?

You should have named yourself Whitetroll it would have been more apt.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.05.10 10:38:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Osric Wolfe
Do not train alts or do not train learning skills?

Are you being serious? What are we discussing here?

Bimjo
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.05.10 13:33:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Osric Wolfe
Do not train alts or do not train learning skills?

Are you being serious? What are we discussing here?
sausages ?

JTDaBeast
Posted - 2010.05.10 14:06:00 - [96]
 

I really don't see what the big deal is, or why there should be a reason to remove them. If you trained them and you see the value of a residual decrease in time needed to train skills then, congrats. If you feel you could have learned much more valuable skills during the time it would have taken to train learning skills, then good for you too.

I don't see why they should remove learning skills. If you don't want them. Simply don't train them. I'm not a PvP player, maybe they should remove all the combat skills (jk).Cool

Hongry
Posted - 2010.05.10 15:39:00 - [97]
 

I'm personally not sure why everyone is jumping on this bandwagon. When a new person that has never played Eve before starts up a trial account and decides if they are going to continue into a paying subscribtion. During that 2 weeks they don't need to train any learning skills, just what they need to do to fit/manufacture their way to bliss. If they become a paying member then sure, they start training their learning skills to 5/4 or 5/5. If you don't like the learning skills or the time they take up, don't train them. A year down the road you'll be sorry. The learning skills are a tool to be used at your own discrestion, not an obligation by CCP. If they remove the learning skills, there should be no reason to automatically buff our learning skills by +10 points. Stop looking for the easy button, learn your skills, profit.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.05.10 16:24:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Bimjo
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Osric Wolfe
Do not train alts or do not train learning skills?

Are you being serious? What are we discussing here?
sausages ?

Do not remove any sausages!

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.05.12 10:56:00 - [99]
 

Learning skills have been an important lesson for eve players. The very fact that you need to spend the time to train to help you train faster was a re-enforcement of how important carefull and selective training is for you. It would be foolish to dismiss learning skills. Can you really say that learning skills are a time sink when we all know that learning has reduced the amount of time that we have all needed to train. Learning skills should stay.

Cathy Drall
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2010.05.12 14:43:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Cathy Drall on 12/05/2010 14:49:52
Personally I'm very much against learning skills.
I'd trade them in for the removal of the 1.6 million double training.

Apparently it's very hard to imagine for the most of you - but if you're a new player who is determined to get the most out of the game, the way to go is train learning skills first. Which will take many, many weeks. During which you can't do anything beyond a few tutorials; you may as well do nothing and only start playing after a month or so.
When your trial time has expired.

Learning skills are annoying and removing both them and the 1.6 million double speed training will enable a new player to get into the game immediately AND give him/her a far better idea of how much patience is needed to play this game and skill up - because the 1.6 million double speed is very treacherous and gives a false idea of how fast actual EVE skilltraining really takes place. Especially since the skills you train first are mostly 1x multiplier skills. As it is now, coming out of that initial phase feels like the transistion of driving a 80 mph car to a 15 mph bicycle crawl.

A win-win I'd say.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.12 15:07:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Cathy Drall
Personally I'm very much against learning skills.
I'd trade them in for the removal of the 1.6 million double training.

Apparently it's very hard to imagine for the most of you - but if you're a new player who is determined to get the most out of the game, the way to go is train learning skills first. Which will take many, many weeks. During which you can't do anything beyond a few tutorials; you may as well do nothing and only start playing after a month or so.
When your trial time has expired.

The same goes for after you did the learning. IMHO, the game only becomes truly playable after 2 years so or, when you can fly most ships you want comfortably and possess good support and drones skills. In other words, patience is just part of the game. Removing learning skills does not alter that.

Quote:
Learning skills are annoying and removing both them and the 1.6 million double speed training will enable a new player to get into the game immediately AND give him/her a far better idea of how much patience is needed to play this game and skill up - because the 1.6 million double speed is very treacherous and gives a false idea of how fast actual EVE skilltraining really takes place.

You're confusing two isssues here. The 2x training speed was introduced to compensate for (older) players starting with certain preset skills (like Gallente would start out with Drones V and such). The training speed bonus was not meant to cater to the 'instant gratification' needs of today's generation of players.

I want to keep the learning skills.

Cathy Drall
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2010.05.12 15:58:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Cathy Drall on 12/05/2010 16:01:03
Originally by: Ranka Mei
I want to keep the learning skills.

You just prove what I said: "Apparently it's very hard to imagine for the most of you - "
It just discourages all new players, well if that's really what you want ... *shrugs*

Quote:
The training speed bonus was not meant to cater to the 'instant gratification' needs of today's generation of players.

I didn't realize the "former generation" was so much different tbh, where are you talking about?!
And even if it was not its intent it definitely leaves the impression.

Moolti
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.05.12 18:20:00 - [103]
 

If the issue is most new players feel they *have* to train the learning skills before any other skills, and at such an early point they can't enjoy the game for the first month, then the solution seems obvious to me: Don't allow the training of learning skills while the bonus is in effect.

They get to train "regular skills" while the are getting a bonus, and then after the bonus is up and they have already gotten some usable skills under their belt they can switch to learning skills, but still have enough skills to maybe play. Yes now learning skills take longer to train, but the importance is lessened, and the cliff isn't quite as ominous.

Admittedly it will introduce a new element as there will now be "what is the most effective 1.6 mill point build" threads, but meh... there will always be a trade off.


Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.12 20:33:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Cathy Drall

Originally by: Ranka Mei
I want to keep the learning skills.

You just prove what I said: "Apparently it's very hard to imagine for the most of you - "

Every beginning is tough. Like, currently I'm studying Japanese. That means that you have to invest years really before you can speak and understand the language half-way decently. EVE is no different: it really takes quite a while before you can do all the cool stuff (well). Yet, much like in real life, you'll get the benefit of feeling you actually went thru the motions to get where you are today. Sure, you're not truly learning; but the time spent is no less real.

Quote:
It just discourages all new players, well if that's really what you want ... *shrugs*

Zannen nagara chigaimasu! I spent a long time so I can train my main attributes at 2772 sp/h. I worked for that; and even though it took a while, I feel the satisfaction of having done so every day. See, there's no such thing as the unfairness of a "new player" vs. someone else, as everybody was a new player once, and had to climb the very same ladder (except pre-learning skills characters, of course).

Cathy Drall
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2010.05.12 22:13:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Cathy Drall on 12/05/2010 22:14:58
Originally by: Ranka Mei

Every beginning is tough. Like, currently I'm studying Japanese. That means that you have to invest years really before you can speak and understand the language half-way decently. EVE is no different: it really takes quite a while before you can do all the cool stuff (well). Yet, much like in real life, you'll get the benefit of feeling you actually went thru the motions to get where you are today. Sure, you're not truly learning; but the time spent is no less real.

Zannen nagara chigaimasu! I spent a long time so I can train my main attributes at 2772 sp/h. I worked for that; and even though it took a while, I feel the satisfaction of having done so every day. See, there's no such thing as the unfairness of a "new player" vs. someone else, as everybody was a new player once, and had to climb the very same ladder (except pre-learning skills characters, of course).

I don't find these arguments very valid nor good.
- The beginning isn't tough at all, the beginning is treacherously easy because of the low multipliers and double skilltraining speed;
- You didn't "work" for anything, skilling up is just putting up the queue and do nothing, it all goes 100% automatically. It doesn't have any more sense of accomplishment than having payed your subscription.
- Unlike real life you can't speed up things by working more, faster and harder.
- I didn't say anything about "unfair", I said it's discouraging to start a new game and the best thing to in the long run is train learning skills for many weeks and refrain from getting new ships, weapons, do missions because you have to `learn to learn´ first for a month or so. Even CCP said they weren´t really happy with this situation.
- And this is a game, not real life where you have to go to school for 20 years before you can do anything.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.13 00:01:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Cathy Drall

I don't find these arguments very valid nor good.

That's, frankly, because you seem to misunderstand a few things.

Quote:
- The beginning isn't tough at all, the beginning is treacherously easybecause of the low multipliers and double skilltraining speed;

The beginning is tough, precisely because you have to train learning skills first, whilst you cannot do much of anything else (because if you do fun stuff first, you'll know you'll fall behind soon enough).

Quote:
- You didn't "work" for anything, skilling up is just putting up the queue and do nothing, it all goes 100% automatically. It doesn't have any more sense of accomplishment than having payed your subscription.

Like I said, the time spent learning is no less real than in real life. The 'work' you do is basically exercising restraint, so as not to go and do fun stuff. Like in real life, instead of going out and play baseball or some such, you apply your time to learning. The only difference being that learning time in EVE doesn't require the actual use of your brain. But that doesn't mean you're not sacrificing anything. And the accomplishment of your effort (your restraint, essentially) is that, afterwards, you're being rewarded for having chosen to spend your time on learning.

You seem to be making it out as if doing learning skills is just a pointless time sink. It isn't. If newbies get discouraged, then only so because they don't see the big picture; they don't see that doing them will actually pay off in the long run. Or they see it, but they rather have everything right now. It always seems to come back to 'instant gratification'. EVE is just not that sorta game.

Quote:
- Unlike real life you can't speed up things by working more, faster and harder.

Exactly the opposite! Training learning skills is precisely what makes your overall training speed up! You can mine and mission to buy yourself implants to make it all go even faster. It's all capped at a certain limit, of course, but the learning skill system allows for enough variation in training speed, really. Which is precisely why I don't like to see 'em go: they allow me to go faster than an other, if I choose to do them. It adds an extra dimension of free will. And those who invested in doing the learning skills should be allowed ro continue to reap the benefits of their choices.

Rachel Rorshach
Posted - 2010.05.13 01:12:00 - [107]
 

Nice to see that after 1+ years, so many people here are sheer infuriated at the thought of letting other players do what they choose to do with their characters, such as training learning skills.



That's really all this anti-learning obsession has been about this entire time. You simply can't stand that other people might feel differently than you and you will not stop until that much more freedom is gone. Very Happy

churrros
Amarr
National Quality Breaker
Posted - 2010.05.13 14:49:00 - [108]
 

Personally, I really dont care if they remove it or not. I have my main and alt trained anyway.

But if CCP wants more new players, removing learning skills is definitely one way of getting newbies.

I have seen so many new players quit after the trial because they didnt want to get behind in the long run(can you blame them?) and only trained learning skills.

I see people here say "then why train learning skills if it makes the game boring?", but if someone knows that he is already behind and you cannot grind to catch up like other games, most people will choose to make learning skills their priority. Which also happened to me, and I didnt really play this game after like 3 months.

For people who are against removing learning skills because you had to train them and think the newbs have to suffer the same crap that you did, good luck. This game is a MMO and with out constant flow of newbs this game will not survive.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.14 09:46:00 - [109]
 

Learning skills have to be trained first.
You will fall behind if you don't.
You cannot do anything fun while training learning skills.
Total SP matters.

4 of the above statements are false. Can you guess which 4?

Somebody mentioned the idea of making the learning skills impossible to train during the bonus period; this is a great idea. Since so many people apparently quit over them, and the only reason for this is disinformation being spread by older players, best to make it impossible to make that particular mistake. Make them impossible to train during trials too, if that isn't already the case.

Learning skills are good because they add an element of choice to the skill tree. No longer is it just 'pick specialisation, train', you also have to consider your long term plans. Apparently this is too much complexity even for some older players, since we have ended up with nonsense notions like there being a 'penalty' for not training them right at the start or 'falling behind' (behind what ffs). Well, too bad, EVE is still complex, at least for now.

I, for one, do not mind if they remove the learning skills, noobs have already been given a bunch of advantages I didn't have, but I don't care because I haven't had a lobotomy and thus do not perceive a skills race - I couldn't even tell you how many SP any of my characters have. But, if it is done, it is not because something is wrong with them, it is because EVE is being aimed at simpler and/or less patient minds than it used to be. Perhaps the most 'mandatory' support skills will be next on the chopping block.

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.05.14 10:46:00 - [110]
 

I really don’t understand why people say that they have seen newbie’s quit over having to train the learning skills. I have always seen quite the contrary. It’s been my experience that new players see the use of learning skills at an early stage and it been one of the reasons why they choose to stay.
So as I don’t want to see newbie’s quit to a watered down game I strongly suggest we keep learning skills.

Francais Tempest
Gallente
White Knights Imperius
Posted - 2010.05.14 12:08:00 - [111]
 

I just can't understand the "You'll fall behind" concept. You are already behind several thousand other characters, whats a few more gonna do.

Sabrina Starfire
Posted - 2010.05.15 13:45:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: ViolenTUK
I really don’t understand why people say that they have seen newbie’s quit over having to train the learning skills. I have always seen quite the contrary. It’s been my experience that new players see the use of learning skills at an early stage and it been one of the reasons why they choose to stay.
So as I don’t want to see newbie’s quit to a watered down game I strongly suggest we keep learning skills.



If those learning skills were not there and the stats increased, I doubt anyone would worry as there are plenty of skills in this game and more get added all the time.

It's a matter of perspective, I for instance don't see them as adding anything worthwhile to the game. It's not about instant gratification as that would not happen in this game as it's played over such a long time.

Removing learning skills won't waterdown the game I doubt if people would even notice, only thing they would notice is they don't have to spend weeks training skills for learning leaving them free to learn industry and combat skills.

Sabrina Starfire
Posted - 2010.05.15 13:59:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: ViolenTUK
Learning skills have been an important lesson for eve players. The very fact that you need to spend the time to train to help you train faster was a re-enforcement of how important carefull and selective training is for you. It would be foolish to dismiss learning skills. Can you really say that learning skills are a time sink when we all know that learning has reduced the amount of time that we have all needed to train. Learning skills should stay.


I doubt that's been an important lesson for Eve players as most Eve players tend to be adults and have already learned such lessons in RL.

Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
Minmatar
The Perfect Harvesting Experience
Posted - 2010.05.18 17:20:00 - [114]
 


GavinCapacitor
Posted - 2010.05.18 20:37:00 - [115]
 

If CCP were to remove the learning skills, I think they would have to give people that trained them some compensation, not because they are nice or fair (far from it..), but simply because so many people have them trained. This is one option.

On the other hand, there might be a way to keep learning skills and at least keep some of the newbies from being discouraged - simply extend the trial past the point you would need to get 5/4 in all the learning skills. (and make them all trainable by trials ofc). People still have the choice, but don't really have to 'pay' until they get past the 'waiting period'.

How long does it take to get all the learning skills to 5/4 and learing to 5? I know some trials are 21 days.

Aiifa
Pandora Sphere
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:13:00 - [116]
 

To have a waiting period before a character becomes playable at all seems deeply counterproductive, both in terms of CCP's profit margin and in terms of potential players. So many of my friends have lost interest in this game, around the same point when I told them that you have to spend a month at at least just training skills to make training other skills slightly faster. It's cruel, and stupid, and sometimes it took their disgust at the concept to help me recognise that. Implants may make sense, multiple accounts may make sense, paying for it all by buying or selling isk makes sense. Learning skills just seem cruel and bizarre.

And please don't accuse me of wanting instant gratification. I love this game so much, I happily waited to get lvl5 in all my learning skills on all of my accounts. But it's hardly a game if there's an arbitrary 2 month waiting period. And yes, it is arbitrary. I've heard the argument that "you don't have to train them if you don't want to" but elsewhere in the same post "I get to train for new items faster than everyone else". Retaining a sense of "game" in this online world is difficult when there's an impermeable overclass of people like that.

I love this game so much, and the fact that it is still (just) a game, I want all learning skills removed, at the same (or more) cost to me as absolutely everyone else.

Horus V
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.19 13:48:00 - [117]
 

LEARNING SKIILS ARE OK. I trained them, you trained them, everybody does. for me its realistic to learn how to learn because even nowdays we have to learn some technics in our studying and imagine thousands years from now.

WE NEED MORE IMPLANTS ! We should have access to Advanced and Elite implants (+6 / +7). Those +6's must be very expensive where +7's would be very hard find on some anusual missions and ussually injected to only best pilots with very high faction standing

ALTS SHOULD BE TRAINED (with different speed). Dear CCP I know that in your opinion we shouldnt be allowed to train 3 characters on one account. I understand why - but at least let us train those with different speed. My idea is to make three different class/types of people/capsulers. Low class are trained only with 1/3 (or 33%) of high class capsuler learning speed and middle class only with 1/2 (or 66%)of that speed. This mean we would be able to choose at the begining of the game 1 character that is our main and he will be trained as normally with 100% and 1 middle class and one low class (alt) This will make game more realistic because now we have so many alts/characters in the game and for months and years they cant learn even how to fly cruisers? Where is the logic?

Jo Ka
Posted - 2010.05.19 14:05:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Jo Ka on 19/05/2010 14:10:41
Originally by: Horus V
LEARNING SKIILS ARE OK. I trained them, you trained them, everybody does. for me its realistic to learn how to learn because even nowdays we have to learn some technics in our studying and imagine thousands years from now.

WE NEED MORE IMPLANTS ! We should have access to Advanced and Elite implants (+6 / +7). Those +6's must be very expensive where +7's would be very hard find on some anusual missions and ussually injected to only best pilots with very high faction standing

ALTS SHOULD BE TRAINED (with different speed). Dear CCP I know that in your opinion we shouldnt be allowed to train 3 characters on one account. I understand why - but at least let us train those with different speed. My idea is to make three different class/types of people/capsulers. Low class are trained only with 1/3 (or 33%) of high class capsuler learning speed and middle class only with 1/2 (or 66%)of that speed. This mean we would be able to choose at the begining of the game 1 character that is our main and he will be trained as normally with 100% and 1 middle class and one low class (alt) This will make game more realistic because now we have so many alts/characters in the game and for months and years they cant learn even how to fly cruisers? Where is the logic?


The gist of your post as far as I can work out is as long as you're ok that's all you are concerned about. Is that right?

As for class differences won't even go into that much. No class system ever produces anything worthwhile.

Macvombat
Posted - 2010.05.19 16:03:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: Macvombat on 19/05/2010 16:04:37
I couldn't be bothered to read all of the posts so excuse me if this has already been said.. I believe every skill in the game should be removed OR all be at 5 from the very beginning. Every new player should - when activating his account - recieve 10 trillion isk so that he could enjoy the game to the fullest from day 1 and not have to worry about skills and all that hassle.. cause seriously? who wants to wait a month before you can really play the game!

forgot to mention - please dont talk about realism in a sci-fi game, if so - ccp needs to acknowledge that i was born the smartest capsuleer ever and has to be granted 500 mill SP by the end of the week

IoWalker
Posted - 2010.05.19 19:25:00 - [120]
 

why are so many of you people complaining about learning skills & new players, as if time for training LS is going to matter to a new player in a game where it takes 2 years before you can even fully master one single ship, industry, or invention activity?


tell you what, for all you anti-LS whiners: I hope EVE both removes LS from the skillset and keeps LS for anyone who's trained them. suddenly you will see how stupid this whole mental rant has been as people legitimately scream for LS brought back.


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