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Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2010.08.02 00:27:00 - [721]
 

I've allways wanted to keep the learning skills as they are but now If we get maxed out atributes, skill points to redistribute and the ISK I spent on those skills back I say yeah scrap them!

Wonder how long before we get whines of that's not fair as well!Twisted Evil


Urgg Boolean
Posted - 2010.08.02 13:16:00 - [722]
 

Edited by: Urgg Boolean on 02/08/2010 13:19:28
Originally by: Ja'Dur Deathwalker
Edited by: Ja''Dur Deathwalker on 01/08/2010 16:50:23
The learning skills are a hidden secret, i am a 29 day old character with tier 1 learning at 4 tier 2 at 3 and all ships to battlecruiser available , and able to tank level 4's in a Drake,

Where is the drawback in that, when you know what you are doing then its easy....


Therein lies the problem. If you pay attention to Rookie Chat, you'll see that players creating alts, who know a lot about thee game, utilize the training speed bonus and train Learning skills, and generally do very well. You will also the clueless noobs who are floundering about and wondering why they got whacked badly in their starter ship while attempting an L2 mission, and getting frustrated because every new module they want to use needs an associated skill book.

There is too much to know for a truly new player to experience an optimal start. Some may, most won't. Learning skills only add to the experience of being overwhelmed and confused.

P.S. - I'm just wondering if a truly new toon could really afford to buy and properly fit a Drake in 29 days without a lot of donations and education from others, regardless of skills?

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.08.03 04:41:00 - [723]
 

Originally by: Viva Che


Keep Learning Skills same camp fear they will lose something. Some fear loss of the edge they'll have years from now over others that do not max out learning. Some fear loss of the choice to train or not train learning and the harsh consequences that result. These people hate the pro-fun gamers who want to see a new player detriment / time sink removed.



Bingo.


Pro fun gaming... Get a grip, if you listen to the advice to train the learning skills as much as possible then who's fault is that, you don't need to train learning for a month all you need is a day or two to make a big difference.



Originally by: stoicfaux


Things have changed since the old days. In the old days there were no remaps and no accelerated training bonus. You could train learning skills as you needed them, meaning that you could wait to train the Will/Per learning skills until just before you started training will/per skills. You could train the learning skills in small doses as you needed them.

With two free remaps and double training speed for your first 1.6 million skill points, it's a really huge bargain to burn a remap and train the learning skills as high as possible immediately. It's the "encouragement" to train them immediately instead of in small doses that is the problem, IMO.



Then the problem is the remaps not the learning skills, if there were no learning skills you might burn remaps on perc/will for combat or int/mem for engineering and electronics and still miss out on something, removing the learning skills will reduce the overall effect but not enough for me, and the problem will move on to different skills, as I said in my post it's important not to run before you can walk in this game, new players need to be encouraged but too much is just as bad as the frustration of not understanding what's going on is a killer.

If I had a friend just coming into the game I'd tell him to do the tutorials and train tier 1 learning skills up a couple of levels, then cybernetics for some +3's then he'd have to decide if a bit of mining is how he wants to go on or missions and learning about PVE, whatever he decides he'll burn remaps learning or not, half the issues over learning skills come from the bad advice to train them as much as possible, it is very bad advice as it hinders the learning process for the new player and makes him think learning skills are the holy grail, they're not.

For me the real problem is the overall difficulty of Eve, whether it's a player from another MMO based on level grinding or new to MMO's generally the real kicker is its f**king hard to get into, looking at Eve now I honestly don't know if I could hack learning how to play it having never played it before, there's just so much to take in.


Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.03 09:02:00 - [724]
 

Originally by: Dray
For me the real problem is the overall difficulty of Eve, whether it's a player from another MMO based on level grinding or new to MMO's generally the real kicker is its f**king hard to get into, looking at Eve now I honestly don't know if I could hack learning how to play it having never played it before, there's just so much to take in.



Exactly, to have to deal with the learning skills on top of that doesn't help anyone.

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.08.03 16:56:00 - [725]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Dray
For me the real problem is the overall difficulty of Eve, whether it's a player from another MMO based on level grinding or new to MMO's generally the real kicker is its f**king hard to get into, looking at Eve now I honestly don't know if I could hack learning how to play it having never played it before, there's just so much to take in.



Exactly, to have to deal with the learning skills on top of that doesn't help anyone.


Only if your stupid enough to try and train them as much as possible early in your Eve life, I didn't train up the basics more than I needed at the time nor the advanced when they came out. The game is as hard as you make it.

All a moot point the game now has a system in place to redistribute skill points, right or wrong they're going, but people will find something else to moan about, that's the one constant in this game.

One day all this game will be is a toss of a coin to get what you want, f**king pointless, how easy do you want it....

Viva Che
Posted - 2010.08.03 17:01:00 - [726]
 

Originally by: Dray
One day all this game will be is a toss of a coin to get what you want, f**king pointless, how easy do you want it....


Bawwwwwww Rolling Eyes

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.08.03 17:33:00 - [727]
 

Originally by: Viva Che
Originally by: Dray
One day all this game will be is a toss of a coin to get what you want, f**king pointless, how easy do you want it....


Bawwwwwww Rolling Eyes


I see your Bawwwwwww and raise you a meh.


Viva Che
Posted - 2010.08.03 20:15:00 - [728]
 

Originally by: Dray
Originally by: Viva Che
Originally by: Dray
One day all this game will be is a toss of a coin to get what you want, f**king pointless, how easy do you want it....


Bawwwwwww Rolling Eyes


I see your Bawwwwwww and raise you a meh.




Call.

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.08.03 21:02:00 - [729]
 

Originally by: Viva Che




Call.


I've got 5/5 in all learning skills, advanced over basics. Smile

Mallui Mallard
Posted - 2010.08.06 11:56:00 - [730]
 

I have my learning skills at 4/3 and they probably won't go any higher because going further feels like blurring the line between "second job I have to pay for" and "please CCP jam your foot in my ass as hard as you can while I pay you 15 bucks a month because I'm kind of an idiot that way".

GreenYoshi
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.08.07 23:04:00 - [731]
 

When I started in early '08, I was told that training learning skills would give me an advantage in training down the road. I trained my learning skills to 4/4 right off the bat, and as far as I'm concerned, doing this was a conscious choice, and added to my first Eve experience.

Sure, training other skills might've gotten me in a cruiser a bit faster, but I was willing to screw around in a destroyer while my learning trained up. Once I was in that cruiser, I was able to put off the instant gratification of a battlecruiser in favour of getting my learning skills to 5/4.

There are alot of people who say that newer players need to train learning skills up to have a fighting chance against older players, or to make their way in Eve. This isn't true at all; I've known a few players who only wanted to get into an assault frigate, and run around in lowsec on weekends. There are plenty of people out there who don't feel like training learning skills past one or two, and this is a conscious choice made by the player.

Personally, I feel that if CCP does away with the learning skills, it will be catering, as someone said earlier in this thread, to the lowest common denominator. If someone feels that they need learning skills to make them competitive in Eve, but they shouldn't have to take the time to train them, then they need to HTFU and take an early lesson about the game they're getting into. This is similar to a PvP character asking to start with the basic support Gunnery skills at 4, because they need it to be competitive, and it's not fair that they don't have it already.

Train the skills, or don't, but don't change the system.

chung moo
screaming skulls
Posted - 2010.08.08 18:07:00 - [732]
 

i like learning skills, lets keep them.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.09 15:45:00 - [733]
 

Ok, I have tweaked the numbers I posted many pages ago to make the SP/h stats as close as possible without ending up with decimal points on the SP levels:

Increase the base attributes by 12 so the lowest value in a remap is 17.
Keep the 15 distributable points but change the max assignable value from 15 to 16.



######## +5 clone with max/min attributes ########

Base Distribute Imps Total
12 16 5 33
12 9 5 26
12 5 5 22
12 5 5 22
12 5 5 22

New max speed 33+26/2 = 2760 SP/h
Old max speed 33+26.4/2 = 2772 SP/h

Effective change -0.43% or -105120 SP/year.


######## Empty clone with max/min attributes ########

Base Distribute Imps Total
12 16 0 28
12 9 0 21
12 5 0 17
12 5 0 17
12 5 0 17

New max speed: 28+21/2 = 2310 SP/h
Old max speed: 27.5+20.9/2 = 2277 SP/h

Effective change +1.4% or +289080 SP/year

Now before everyone is going OMG we lose speed with these attributes in +5 clones you have to remember that it is still 192720 SP/year faster than was possible before the neural remapping was introduced.

Paxton Gaines
Posted - 2010.08.09 23:11:00 - [734]
 

Edited by: Paxton Gaines on 09/08/2010 23:14:16
Originally by: Diefer
Funny how these threads always continue ", and give everyone +10" or some equivalent. Do you want to remove learning skills, or gain attributes for free?



You fail to see the point. The Learning skills add the attribute amount each level. The act of "attributes for free" is to cover the fact that removal of the Learning skills doesn't cripple new characters. That's also why you would allow veteran characters to reallocate the skill points used for the Learning skills to other skills, thus making it fair for both older and newer characters.

Although, GreenYoshi does have a point. It should be a conscious choice for each player whether to gain that later advantage by training Learning skills early.

Star P'ergish
Posted - 2010.08.10 07:08:00 - [735]
 

Originally by: GreenYoshi
If someone feels that they need learning skills to make them competitive in Eve, but they shouldn't have to take the time to train them, then they need to HTFU and take an early lesson about the game they're getting into. This is similar to a PvP character asking to start with the basic support Gunnery skills at 4, because they need it to be competitive, and it's not fair that they don't have it already.

Train the skills, or don't, but don't change the system.


This

Catherine Griffin
Amarr
Posted - 2010.08.10 08:15:00 - [736]
 

Edited by: Catherine Griffin on 10/08/2010 08:15:40
---
Funny that almost everyone has his/her learning skills to at least 5/4.

Originally by: Paxton Gaines
It should be a conscious choice for each player whether to gain that later advantage by training Learning skills early.

Yes, we know that training your learning skills to 5/5 (perhaps except the charisma ones) to start your career is the best investment in the long run.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.08.10 17:04:00 - [737]
 

Originally by: Star P'ergish
Originally by: GreenYoshi
If someone feels that they need learning skills to make them competitive in Eve, but they shouldn't have to take the time to train them, then they need to HTFU and take an early lesson about the game they're getting into. This is similar to a PvP character asking to start with the basic support Gunnery skills at 4, because they need it to be competitive, and it's not fair that they don't have it already.

Train the skills, or don't, but don't change the system.


This


Yes this. However when I said the same thing many pages ago, the whiny troll *****es came out of the woodwork to jump on me about it. Funny they are all gone now. Although you can bet your ass they'll be back now that I posted in here again.

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2010.08.14 15:51:00 - [738]
 

said it before and I'll say it again ...

Currently (quick calcs, shouldn't be way off at least)
Base 39 + 50 skills + 25 implants + 11.4 learning skill
Skills + implants = 86.4/125.4 = 69%

so, almost 70% of skill training time can be "earned/purchased" (purchased means you buy play time to train skills)

This should be 70% base, 30% earned ... so:
Change base attributes to 100 points or something like that
change all the learning skills to be +x% to attribute(s) based on level (same for implants, 1% - 5% attribute increase). Smooth it out so that current max attribute points are about the same as after changes.

While you are at it, add "deliver to my location" from assets ... you pay x isk for delivery (high sec only) based on nr of jumps or something (low amount based on m3 to be transferred)... there, Jita problem solved too.

Maelcom Grey
Evoluxa
Posted - 2010.08.14 16:12:00 - [739]
 

Every mechanic of a game should add to the overall experience of the game. Learning Skills don't add anything, only detract from the new player experience. It was a bad idea to make skills that don't do anything but make it faster to train other skills that actually do do something. The game won't be easier without them, just better, as they're really just a mistake that should be corrected.

I have them all to 4/4. I don't even care about an ISK reimbursement, if I just get my SP back to reallocate to something that isn't worthless I'll be happy.

heheheh
Phoenix Club
Posted - 2010.08.14 19:06:00 - [740]
 

Originally by: Ravenal


While you are at it, add "deliver to my location" from assets ... you pay x isk for delivery (high sec only) based on nr of jumps or something (low amount based on m3 to be transferred)... there, Jita problem solved too.


What ever happend to the "interbus" service that was mentioned years ago, it was exactly this.
I wouldnt care either way if learning skills were removed, the game is very overwhelming for beginners but its alot easier then it was, there are many more tutorials now then there ever was.
personally i quite liked being dumped in a station with nothing laid out after one mission, i hate the hand holding style of wow and most other mmos.

sir pepe
Posted - 2010.08.15 08:11:00 - [741]
 

why they dont gives me capital ship lv 5 cuz i cant catch up and give the veterans the sp to distribute? lol all players dont have to train it you should thain learning but you dont have to if you dont want to its like every skill in eve =p y dont wwant minning 5 in my char =p.

Tarasina
Posted - 2010.08.15 08:37:00 - [742]
 

Originally by: sir pepe
why they dont gives me capital ship lv 5 cuz i cant catch up and give the veterans the sp to distribute? lol all players dont have to train it you should thain learning but you dont have to if you dont want to its like every skill in eve =p y dont wwant minning 5 in my char =p.


Ok....show me one character that hasn't trained Learning at all, one that isn't a forum alt.
The question isn't if you have to train learning, you must (unless you are extremely stupid, so stupid you should go shoot yourself). Learning skills give little to no choice, it is no career choice. Everyone and their mother trains them. Every character benefits from learning, contrary to what mining does.

Training learning skills is a choice that isn't a choice.

Tahm Cruise
Posted - 2010.09.29 09:12:00 - [743]
 

Edited by: Tahm Cruise on 29/09/2010 09:15:29
Edited by: Tahm Cruise on 29/09/2010 09:14:24

It must have been said before but changing learning skills from how they are now to a static set of attributes that you dont have to train is necessary.

All of us oldtimers have our learningskills at minimum advanced lvl 4 so if they changed the system it still would not affect us, we wouldn't even notice the change because we are done with that chapter.

The only thing a change like that will do is attract more new players because I have heard it a thousand times "in eve you need to spend months optimizing your character before you can even begin training towards what you want to do ingame"

New players dont want to spend their first month training learning skills. They dont.

And dont give me that "oh well then dont train the learningskills, you can train battleship right away"

Sure, thats true but sooner or later that person is going to want to train his learningskills anyway because when he breaks his 100% 1.6 mil sp barrier every single skill is going to be pure pain.

New players dont want to begin their first month in EVE with a boring month, a new game must be fun from the get go or else that player will most likely quit.

People like to optimize things.

Would you play a game where you could not do anything for the first month because it's optimized to train an attribute that helps you gain experience faster? A set of attributes that you will want to have sooner or later? Oh oh.. and I almost forgot. You're going to have to pay for at least half of that month.

Some players will say yes, because EVE is a cool game. Unfortunately I'm sure alot of people wont get the chance to realise that EVE is a cool game because of things like the learning skill system.

Dont change the skill system, it is fine the way it is but get rid of learning skills and install a permanent set of attributes that you can neural respec the way you want.

Keep implants the way they are.

That is all.

Loreth Algamore
Posted - 2010.09.29 19:14:00 - [744]
 

Originally by: Tahm Cruise
Edited by: Tahm Cruise on 29/09/2010 09:15:29
Edited by: Tahm Cruise on 29/09/2010 09:14:24

It must have been said before but changing learning skills from how they are now to a static set of attributes that you dont have to train is necessary.

...

New players dont want to begin their first month in EVE with a boring month, a new game must be fun from the get go or else that player will most likely quit.

...

Dont change the skill system, it is fine the way it is but get rid of learning skills and install a permanent set of attributes that you can neural respec the way you want.

Keep implants the way they are.

That is all.


This stuff. Remove the trainable attribute skills, grant them as base points. Keep Learning I to V since that can be done quickly enough, and is also a % based bonus rather than a flat increase.

I've tried to get into this game three separate times, and the learning grind is always what drives me away. Hoping I can stick it out this time. I WANT to like this game, but it's hard not to feel burned when you're paying for 1-2 months of game time to not play.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.29 20:51:00 - [745]
 

Originally by: Ravenal
While you are at it, add "deliver to my location" from assets ... you pay x isk for delivery (high sec only) based on nr of jumps or something (low amount based on m3 to be transferred)... there, Jita problem solved too.


Already implemented: Red Frog Freight


Xorv
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:22:00 - [746]
 

Yet again amazed by the arguments made by some pro learning skill posters.

Explain to me how Learning Skills represent "effort"? They don't require effort, they require time. Short of making a small amount of Isk to pay for the skill books playing isn't required, in fact not playing is encouraged.

Explain to me how Learning skills make the game "harder"? I'm assuming you mean harder in terms of player skill? Or do you just mean harder to enjoy? Because if it's the later I actually agree.

In terms of player skill, any feature that gives advantage to a player via time sink or repetitive boring activities (aka Grind) is a reduction in the player skill element of the game not a boost.

So, Learning Skills do NOT require effort on the part of the player, nor do they push the game towards some "Hard Mode" ...well unless seeing who can sit in a room doing nothing productive the longest is also considered a game of skill to you.

Remove Learning Skills!

Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
Posted - 2010.09.30 11:22:00 - [747]
 

get rid of 'em already.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:31:00 - [748]
 

Originally by: Xorv
Yet again amazed by the arguments made by some pro learning any skill posters.

Explain to me how any skills represent "effort"? They don't require effort, they require time. Short of making a small amount of Isk to pay for the skill books playing isn't required, in fact not playing is encouraged.

Explain to me how any skills make the game "harder"? I'm assuming you mean harder in terms of player skill? Or do you just mean harder to enjoy? Because if it's the later I actually agree.

In terms of player skill, any feature that gives advantage to a player via time sink or repetitive boring activities (aka Grind) is a reduction in the player skill element of the game not a boost.

So, any skills do NOT require effort on the part of the player, nor do they push the game towards some "Hard Mode" ...well unless seeing who can sit in a room doing nothing productive the longest is also considered a game of skill to you.

Remove any (and all) skills!


There, fixed your stance.

So name a skill that is not another time sink that allows a player to do something a bit better? It is not as if learning any skills makes live more difficult for the player - just the opposite. "But everyone has to train the Learning skills to survive!" - yea right. Does a cyno alt bother with any other skills save for learning up to popping that cyno? Does a macro miner care for anything except following the same rigid skill course for getting to Exhumers 1 to mine with an Orca? Does a trader alt worry about any other skills except the branch of trading and stops there?

I've am all for removing the Learning skills and nothing more. No free bonus attributes, no bonuses - nothing. Then let's hear the complaints about how slow learning any skill becomes from then onward.

Or will you hyperactive crowds loose your marbles...?

Jennifer Starling
Posted - 2010.09.30 16:03:00 - [749]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 30/09/2010 16:06:18
Originally by: Guttripper
I've am all for removing the Learning skills and nothing more. No free bonus attributes, no bonuses - nothing. Then let's hear the complaints about how slow learning any skill becomes from then onward.

Or will you hyperactive crowds loose your marbles...?

And of course with the same logic, subtract all the SP from the veterans that they got from increased attribute points from learning skills.

I wonder how many will stay .. but of course they won't mind waiting 10 years to get back to where they were. Sure they won't mind, they're not hyperactive ADHD crowds, are they?

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.09.30 16:55:00 - [750]
 

Well, since some lovely person decided to drag this piece of crap thread out of the toilet...

I can at least inject some humor. So, I'll be posting jokes in here occasionally to lighten up the mood! Very Happy

Q: How many anti-learning-skill-whiners does it take to change a light bulb?
A: 3. One to hold the light bulb and 2 to turn the ladder.

Q: Did you hear the one about the anti-learning-skill-whiner who quit Eve and went back to WoW?
A: It raised the IQ of both games.

Q: Why don't anti-learning-skill-whiners eat M&M's?
A: They're too hard to peel.

Q: What do anti-learning-skill-whiners think Cheerios are?
A: Donut seeds.

Did you know that it was an anti-learning-skill-whiner who invented toilet seats? Of course CCP stole their design and cut a hole in the middle.


Stop me. I've got a million of 'em....

Wink


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