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Ivas Tiffy
Amarr
Posted - 2010.03.27 00:05:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Dr Caymus
How about this:

Remove all learning skills.
Remove the attribute points associated with learning skills.
Remove all implants that enhance learning attributes.
Credit characters with the base ISK values of the items removed.
Credit characters with the skillpoints invested in learning skills, to be reallocated as desired by the character.
Add a 6th level to all skills.

Then we'd have a near-open-ended skill system. Wouldn't that be cool?

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-








but then it would be like most every other mmo out there, you would have to grind skills to improve.. and then i see lots of chars orbiting asteroids with mwd blasting, guns firings, webs going hard core... all afk.

+10 all attrbutes. leave learning in and maybe add a 2nd tier of learning that adds 3% per level.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.03.27 00:41:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Dr Caymus
How about this:

Remove all learning skills.
Remove the attribute points associated with learning skills.
Remove all implants that enhance learning attributes.
Credit characters with the base ISK values of the items removed.
Credit characters with the skillpoints invested in learning skills, to be reallocated as desired by the character.
Add a 6th level to all skills.

Then we'd have a near-open-ended skill system. Wouldn't that be cool?

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-







As long as the base attributes get +10 sure.

The only drawback is that all the pirate implants will increase a lot in price when they no longer give you a "SP penalty".

Desmont McCallock
Posted - 2010.03.27 10:13:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Viggen
I'd be happy if they removed all the learning skills, and gave +10 to base attributes.
But only if they let me reallocate the 5,376,000 SP's I've invested into learning to wherever I liked Cool



+1

Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
Posted - 2010.03.27 16:02:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Ivas Tiffy
but then it would be like most every other mmo out there, you would have to grind skills to improve.. and then i see lots of chars orbiting asteroids with mwd blasting, guns firings, webs going hard core... all afk.

Not exactly... in my scenario, you'd still have your base attributes and you'd still be able to reorganize them once a year with a neural remap. The intent of this scenario is not to switch to a grind for skills system. The scenario merely eliminates learning skills and the extra attribute points associated with them. That aside, the scenario was offered largely in jest, as the thread has a hint of the "it needs to be easier for new characters to catch up with old characters" theme.

More seriously, any scenario of this nature would have to include some form of base attribute boost in order to afford new characters the opportunity to grow their skills at the same rates older characters have enjoyed for years. I do find the concept of a 6th skill level compelling though (recognizing, of course, that many if not most skills would need to have their benefits "remapped" to a 6-level system). I believe the skill system should be "open-ended"... effectively impossible to max out any more than a few carefully chosen skills. Such a system would facilitate better specialization and a population of truely unique characters. As it stands, skills train too fast. The current population consists of thousands of master (insert your job here) clones.

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-




Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.27 19:07:00 - [35]
 

Someone link that learning chart, for the ideal time vs profit for learning skills only take them to 4/4/4. That will ensure that you gain the best profit for the best skill gain. 400k Sp for stat learning skills 4/4. 1 million SP for stat learning skills 5/5. Guess your way to what is the most SP efficent,

DAxsteel
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Posted - 2010.03.27 21:53:00 - [36]
 

1) I want an undocking skill so I can get out of the station Faster.
2) I want a "Smoke" Skill that allows me to disperse an opaque ion gas to root out all those Covert Ops pilots spying on me thru the window of my apartment in Jita. they become visible and POOF!
3) I want hairdryer only circuits installed in every station in Eve.
4) I want
5) I want
6) I want

blah blah blah....

Kalamator
Minmatar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
Posted - 2010.03.28 00:28:00 - [37]
 

you know, I remember the same "problem" being voiced over and over when i joined Eve for the first time, around the middle of '07. I thought the idea of a learning tree was a great idea, a way for me to reduce the training time i was undergoing for any skill. Personally, I don't see the validity of the argument that this will help someone "catch up" with the veterans who have been playing for, what, six years now? How do you 'catch up' to 100m SP characters?

I enjoyed the strategy that came with deciding if I should train Logic IV or Min Frig IV. And I was very pleased when I got all the learning skills to V (except charisma, which is still 5/4) That came with a real sense of accomplishment for me. As I still have that last point of Charisma to attain, guess I should get it going before it's taken away from me.

And yes, I realize some people have suggested getting all the learning skills given back to reallocate wherever we please, I'm not talking (or would it be, typing?) about that. To be honest, even if the SP were to disappear forever, I would STILL want to train them all up, just to know I had done the best for my character that I could.

I will leave you with this thought: I loved experiencing eve by putting in the time to train my learning skills up, which I got the hard way, and took me well over a year to accomplish, as I decided to train other skills up also. So for me, personally, your statement that the learning skill tree is " just an ambiguous time sink that all players have to go through before really experiencing the game." is not true.

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2010.03.28 15:44:00 - [38]
 

The main problem is:
- 29 base attribute points
- 50 learning attribute points
- 25 implant attribute points

You can almost double your skill training rate with implants alone and almost triple it with learning skills.

Total attribute points (ignoring the learning skill itself) = 104, of which 29/104 = 27% are base points.

So, almost x4 training time by going max learning and implants. That much of a boost is too hard to ignore. So, what to do?

Triple the base attribute points = 87 base points (95.7 with learning lvl5)
Change the learning skills to +x%
This will give you an average attribute score of 87/5 = 17.4 (19.14 with learning) at min/max +5 you have and attribute range of 12.4 to 22.4 (14.14 - 24.14) before the attribute learning skills.

So, learning skills +x%
x=1
5%*5% = 10.25% which gives attribute range of:
13.64 - 24.64 (15.55 - 26.55) ... not enough
x=2
10%*10% = 21% which gives attribute range of:
15 - 27.1 (17.1 - 29.2) ... close
x=3
15%*15% = 32.25%
16.4 - 29.6 (18.7 - 31.9) ... or 126.6 total points, which is about the same as we have now with all learning and +5s

The big difference is 87/126.6 = 68.7% ... more than two thirds of training time is covered by base attribute points.

... there, I said it again! Somebody listen now.

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2010.03.28 16:57:00 - [39]
 

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, to be honest. I, for one, loved training the learning skills. Not because of the benfit it provided (when I first started training them, I didn't know all the math behind them), but because I just liked improving something about my character.

The way I see the learning skills is that training them is like going to school. You don't have to do it, but you'll probably be better off if you do. EVE is a role-playing game, and one of the roles they decided to make us play was the role of the student. Personally, it's one of the reasons I like the game. I still want them to release the Elite Learning Skills, I envisioned so many years ago. Cool

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2010.03.28 17:06:00 - [40]
 

... not to forget implants. Change the attribute implants to % too.

Emma Royd
Caldari
Maddled Gommerils
Posted - 2010.03.28 18:42:00 - [41]
 

Wah Wah Wah, all I hear is "It's unfair to noobs"

Eve isn't fair, as a noob you're gonna get shafted somewhere down the line, so htfu

I'm sick of people complaining about how noobs are never gonna catch up with the veterans, it's so unfair blah de blah.

I started my char mid 2006, none of this accelerated learning, a small number of skill points, and thrown out there into the big bad world.

Created a few characters since then, and they've never had it so easy, follow the basic tutorial and mission set and you get skill books thrown at you, loads of isk (I remember celebrating my first million as it was a big thing, now it's achieved within a few days.

Just what do you want the new players to have, tell ya what, why not work out the average skills for all the characters in eve and start them off with that Rolling Eyes

If they've not got the patience to do some of the learning skills to start off with then they don't lose anything, they just don't train as fast, eve isn't instant gratification, and nor should it be, it requires time to be invested in the game to get the most out of it.

So if you're a noob and don't like the fact that told you've got all these learning skills that you absolutely definately without doubt have to do before you do anything else, then don't do them, it's your loss, you start with enough skills to play around for a few days, do the tutorials etc.

I'll be annoyed if they scrap the learning skills unless they come up with a really good plan of how they're going to do it, I've invested weeks of training on all my characters to do the learnings, and I'm happy to do it again, it's all about the payoff in the end.

If noobs are quitting because it takes too long to do anything then eve isn't the game for them, if they quit because of a simple matter of learning skills, then what's gonna happen the first time they lose a ship that they've got to pay for? emoragequit!

Steroidonkey
Posted - 2010.03.28 23:43:00 - [42]
 

Give everyone a +5 or +10 to base attributes, leave everything else as is. Noobs get quicker access to advanced game mechanics and DONT get to turn a game in which I've invested time and money into a third person shooter. I play those for free or not at all. And add a pile of new skills or lvl 6 at whatever rate you can balance them in, that way noobs and vets alike will have new areas to specialize in. Btw, anyone who is skilled enough or who uses the market can fly badass pirate ships in their first months that most veterans don't find cost effective. I personally would have liked things to have been harder when I started (only about a year ago). Playing a game where you face a constant challenge against the odds, a game that can't be "beaten," is fun as hell, and crying like a child when someone else has bigger toys than you is just sad. I think most of the people who post here want accessability, which is good, but with a collectivised/egalitarian mindset many go on a rampage and try to destroy the hardcore nature of the game.

drake duka
Minmatar
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.03.30 07:45:00 - [43]
 

I agree with the post saying that new players should start with 4/3 learnings as it wouldn't require an overhaul of the current skill system.

Really the issue IMO is that eve is a slow paced game as it is which makes it hard for new players to get into but then telling them that they need spend a few weeks on learnings may really turn them off from the game. With 4/3 there is room for improvement just greater accessibility.

Charles Park
Posted - 2010.03.30 09:16:00 - [44]
 

Hey I think Engineering and Electronics are stupid skills. Why should noobs have to spend time training those skills to 5 to be able to fit their ships properly. Its ridiculous! I say remove Engineering and Electronics and increase the powergrid and cpu of all ships to make them easier to fit.

Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes

Takseen
Posted - 2010.03.30 09:55:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Charles Park
Hey I think Engineering and Electronics are stupid skills. Why should noobs have to spend time training those skills to 5 to be able to fit their ships properly. Its ridiculous! I say remove Engineering and Electronics and increase the powergrid and cpu of all ships to make them easier to fit.

Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes


Ahh, I was wondering when someone would get around to posting this comparison. I'm not sure that it fits though.
For starters, new players DO start with these core skills already trained to level 3, precisely because nearly every player will want them. Hence the argument for giving out atleast some learning skills in the beginning too.
Plus, its easier to delay training these skills and just settling for a slightly weaker fit or boosting your CPU/MW with a lowslot module than it is to fit some +3 implants to compensate for weaker attributes.

DXYOC
Posted - 2010.03.30 12:12:00 - [46]
 

Remove learninbg skills from the game and award the ones who trained them with a 100% bonus learning speed for the duration that it would have taken to train the learning skills.
And increase base attributes by 10 each or whatever you find OK.

Does it seem fair?

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.30 12:44:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Rashmika Clavain on 30/03/2010 12:47:33
I'd be happy if CCP left it alone and concentrated on bug fixes/content development.

I'd also be happy if people stopped harping on about skill training. If you don't like it, with all due respect try a different MMO? The character progression in EVE (offline training) already surpasses that of any other MMO. Again, if you don't like that, play a different MMO instead of trying to change EVE to suit you.

The world would probably be a better place if people stopped telling new players to train the learning skills before they even think about undocking. For ****s sake, get EVEmon and it'll show you the optimum skills ot train in terms of learning.

Getting them all to 4(5)/4 doesn't really help considering most of the skills you're training as a new player take 10 or 20 bloody minutes.

Additionally, even if you've got 150m skillpoints, you're still physically capped to how many you can bring to a fight. People have such a hang up over skills in EVE... find something else to complain about, it's not as if there aren't any other burning issues that actually ARE game breaking.

Oneiros IV
Minmatar
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.03.30 13:51:00 - [48]
 

Inb4 learning skills removed, no SP refund happens, pilots posting on EVE forum. Then asking what's best to level warrior or druid.

Evelyn LeDonna
Caldari
Kore Securities Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.22 20:47:00 - [49]
 

Holy poop.

So, this is my THIRD time resubbing.

Both times I quite because I got bored doing learning skills. I started once, did learning skills, thought it was boring. Came back, new char, same deal.

Now I am back with 1.3million in learning skills already (didnt start a new character). And still it is tempting to bail due to still needing like months to skill the learning skills.

I feel like its a MAJOR hinderance to not focus on them.

I think I might even just skip over some learning skills for a while, so I can skill up other things so I dont go made and quit again he he.

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2010.04.23 00:45:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Evelyn LeDonna
I think I might even just skip over some learning skills for a while, so I can skill up other things so I dont go made and quit again
Please do this. No one, not even I, ever said anyone had to train the Learning skills.

Grayclay
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.04.23 04:06:00 - [51]
 

I definitely see both sides here.

For new characters: Learning skills can be a serious detriment to new characters getting into the game in the first month. They'll be told they need to train up all of them to Level 5 by almost anyone in-game, and that its almost de facto that you should have all 5/4 learning skills. When in WoW or EQ or any other MMO, you can immediately start casting a couple of different spells by the end of the first day, its hard for a new player to get past the first month spent just setting up a character for their first "spell".

For Alts: I just started my first separate account alt, and I was playing around with EvEMon to setup a skill plan. I'm turning this guy into an industrialist, so I setup a long list of all of the industrial and science skills. EvEMon popped up with suggestions for Learning skills, and even though I added skills, it reduced the overall plan time. So it's not really a waste. I'm spending about one week training Memory and Intelligence learning skills to 5/4, and thats all I need. Be selective about what you're going to use an Alt for, and its not that big of a deal.

Pheusia
Gallente
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.04.23 08:33:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Grayclay
I definitely see both sides here.

For new characters: Learning skills can be a serious detriment to new characters getting into the game in the first month. They'll be told they need to train up all of them to Level 5 by almost anyone in-game.


No they wont. In fact people who do this to new players should be petitioned for griefing. It's just about the worst possible advice you can give to a new player, and anyone who does this should be at least temp-banned.

Pheusia
Gallente
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.04.23 08:43:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Evelyn LeDonna
Holy poop.

So, this is my THIRD time resubbing.

Both times I quite because I got bored doing learning skills. I started once, did learning skills, thought it was boring. Came back, new char, same deal.

Now I am back with 1.3million in learning skills already (didnt start a new character). And still it is tempting to bail due to still needing like months to skill the learning skills.

I feel like its a MAJOR hinderance to not focus on them.

I think I might even just skip over some learning skills for a while, so I can skill up other things so I dont go made and quit again he he.


As a new character, skills are important to you. But they are only one of the pillars your character's advancement depends upon. By exclusively focusing on learning skills, you are neglecting to improve your ISK income, your in-game assets, you in game friends and contacts, and most importantly of all, your player experience.

Yes, skills are important, but they are useless without the other aspects I have listed. EVE is totally unlike a certain Other Game™ where all that matters is your character level.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2010.04.23 12:01:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Edited by: stoicfaux on 26/03/2010 15:38:28

If the concern is over new characters being "required" to train boring, non-internet spaceship skills, then just have new players start with the basic learning skills at 4 and the advanced learning skills to level 3.

That would be enough of a boost to make training a non-issue while leaving plenty of excitement for the OCD > Diminishing Returns crowd. Older players could just be reminded that your "online play experience may change" and to suck it up. (But a skill training time boost would be better.)

Also, since your learning skills are in the database, CCP can implement a new player friendly solution *now* and work on 'crediting' older players *later*.

Personally, "having" to train learning skills makes Eve pretty alt-aholic unfriendly.




I like this idea too. It's simple, more or less fixes the issue of learning skills, and its a solution that can be implemented now with little code fiddling.

Which is why it'll never be implemented.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.04.23 18:17:00 - [55]
 

Seeing as several people have seconded my idea of starting with learning skills at 4/3, I posted the idea in the Features and Ideas forum: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1306870

Feel free to post your support and/or your bitter condemnation. Very Happy

Cheers!

Unraveller Chase
Posted - 2010.04.23 20:22:00 - [56]
 

I started early in 09' for EvE and personally the learning skills weren't and I also think they aren't a problem for new people. Getting the learning skills you need to 4/5 for the basic and advanced doesn't take that long, nor does it take much money. Its only when you pursue the 5/5 level does it take a long time (around 15-17 days if i remember).

Anyone can leave the skills for when they are away from eve for awhile and que up a big learning skill, but by no means do you really need to get 5/5 asap before ship/modules skills. At the lower level battleships, battlecruiser and frigates you really will lose no more then a week or so of training time collectively. After you get these ships you can create a stable income and you can min/max the rest of the learning.

I didn't know what I was doing when I started but I still managed to get up and running level 4 missions within a few months solo (with the help of some other players suggestions).

People can blame the learning skills for people quitting soon after the trial expires but I think it's the learning curve that kills most people, they don't know what to train, they don't progress fast enough and then they see everyone else rollin' around in awesome ships and realize that it will take them a long time to reach that level.

Like most MMO forums people want more faster or they quit. I think it's great that they quit, I love the idea that new people won't catch up to me. Anyone with half a brain will appreciate the complexity and elegance of EvE and stay with it. Those who can't won't, regardless of having faster initial training time. Another factor that keeps people in is a friendly corp to chat/play with.

Just a thought.

Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
Posted - 2010.04.23 21:06:00 - [57]
 

This whole discussion (not just the thread but the general idea of training skills being 'required') is based on the concept that, for some reason, training a little slower than the other guys puts one at 'a disadvantage'. It really is a bummer how you can 'lose' at EVE by taking 4 extra days to finish off Recon V :(

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.04.23 21:56:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
This whole discussion (not just the thread but the general idea of training skills being 'required') is based on the concept that, for some reason, training a little slower than the other guys puts one at 'a disadvantage'. It really is a bummer how you can 'lose' at EVE by taking 4 extra days to finish off Recon V :(


Ah... let's put it this way. According to Evemon,

New character with optimized attributes:
* ~89 days to train to Recon Ship V.
* Recon Ship IV to V takes ~50 days.

New character with 4/3 learning skills with optimized attributes:
* ~62 days to train to Recon Ship V (27 day improvement)
* Recon Ship IV to V takes ~28 days. (22 day improvement)

A week's worth of learning skills saves nearly a month of time, but only if you sit on your hands for the first week and train learning skills.



unloadedx16
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.04.23 22:00:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Dr Caymus
How about this:

Remove all learning skills.
Remove the attribute points associated with learning skills.
Remove all implants that enhance learning attributes.
Credit characters with the base ISK values of the items removed.
Credit characters with the skillpoints invested in learning skills, to be reallocated as desired by the character.
Add a 6th level to all skills.

Then we'd have a near-open-ended skill system. Wouldn't that be cool?

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-








I like this idea +1

Rotopod
Posted - 2010.04.24 01:54:00 - [60]
 

Supporting the removal of learning skills.


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