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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.07 03:46:00 - [511]
 

Originally by: AterraX
Remove all learning skillbooks.
Problem solved.

What?
Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort? Rolling Eyes

Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.

That is the only solution I would support...


This is what I have been saying the whole time. Surprisingly this idea has not caught on as much as the free handout idea. I did propose another idea in the general discussion version of this thread but again, no freebies, no support. Makes me wonder what the real agenda is...

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.07 05:20:00 - [512]
 

Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: AterraX
Remove all learning skillbooks.
Problem solved.

What?
Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort? Rolling Eyes

Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.

That is the only solution I would support...


This is what I have been saying the whole time. Surprisingly this idea has not caught on as much as the free handout idea. I did propose another idea in the general discussion version of this thread but again, no freebies, no support. Makes me wonder what the real agenda is...


It's obvious isn't it?
People want stuff for free...and will whine forever to get it and try and mask it as something else.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.07 08:10:00 - [513]
 

Originally by: AterraX
Remove all learning skillbooks.
Problem solved.

What?
Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort? Rolling Eyes

Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.

That is the only solution I would support...

And that would help new players how exactly? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Lord CH0w
Caldari
Xenogenics
Posted - 2010.07.07 08:28:00 - [514]
 

Originally by: AterraX
Remove all learning skillbooks.
Problem solved.

What?
Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort? Rolling Eyes

Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.

That is the only solution I would support...


/support

omgevenmoarfreemoniez
Posted - 2010.07.07 09:01:00 - [515]
 

Who cares about new players? They're just there to be easy kills after all.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.07 10:45:00 - [516]
 

Originally by: AterraX
Remove all learning skillbooks.
Problem solved.

What?
Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort? Rolling Eyes

Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.

That is the only solution I would support...

Good troll.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.07.07 10:55:00 - [517]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: AterraX
Remove all learning skillbooks.
Problem solved.

What?
Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort? Rolling Eyes

Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.

That is the only solution I would support...

Good troll.


Hey Jasdemi -

Please present the evidence from CCP that if and when CCP does remove the Learning skills, every pilot whether they trained the skills or not will get maximum attribute bonus points.

Until then, good troll to you too. Twisted Evil

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.07 15:25:00 - [518]
 

Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: AterraX
Remove all learning skillbooks.
Problem solved.

What?
Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort? Rolling Eyes

Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.

That is the only solution I would support...

Good troll.

Until then, good troll to you too. Twisted Evil

Why thank you!

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.07 19:12:00 - [519]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: AterraX
Remove all learning skillbooks.
Problem solved.

What?
Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort? Rolling Eyes

Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.

That is the only solution I would support...

And that would help new players how exactly? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


By all the whineposts, I say it would focus them on "useable" skills...I mean all the whine is about that you NEED to train learning skills.
Remove them...problem solved.

Why do you think all new players should get a bonus for doing nothing?!
A bonus other players spent time to get via traning.

It's seems to me that you don't see learning skills as the problem.
The problem is that your a jealous about the attribute-bonus others get that you don't.

And why don't you also demand the removal of attribute implants?!
What new player can afford +5 implants?

So i must conclude that you motive is dishonest and based on petty jealousy.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.07 19:23:00 - [520]
 

Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: AterraX
Remove all learning skillbooks.
Problem solved.

What?
Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort? Rolling Eyes

Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.

That is the only solution I would support...

And that would help new players how exactly? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


By all the whineposts, I say it would focus them on "useable" skills...I mean all the whine is about that you NEED to train learning skills.
Remove them...problem solved.

Why do you think all new players should get a bonus for doing nothing?!
A bonus other players spent time to get via traning.

It's seems to me that you don't see learning skills as the problem.
The problem is that your a jealous about the attribute-bonus others get that you don't.

And why don't you also demand the removal of attribute implants?!
What new player can afford +5 implants?

So i must conclude that you motive is dishonest and based on petty jealousy.


I've already seen the post where they were calling to remove attribute implants and just give everyone the +5. I support AterraX on this. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If we can't come up with a good compromise ( and not this goddamn welfare plan ) then we should take the skills out of the game entirely and just let everybody get ****ed and hate it. There is not a good reason to give a large bonus to people who would otherwise not expend the time to get the bonus for themselves.

Vexidious
Posted - 2010.07.07 22:37:00 - [521]
 

Originally by: Pantload

I've already seen the post where they were calling to remove attribute implants and just give everyone the +5. I support AterraX on this. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If we can't come up with a good compromise ( and not this goddamn welfare plan ) then we should take the skills out of the game entirely and just let everybody get ****ed and hate it. There is not a good reason to give a large bonus to people who would otherwise not expend the time to get the bonus for themselves.


Yeah! Screw those new players, wanting to actually play the game without spending three months training up their learning skills! Nobody likes noobs anyway. After all, I'm sure that CCP has no interest at all in making more money, right?

On a more serious note, I do think that the learning skill "punch in the gut" that new players get is a good indication of the overall Eve experience, but I can certainly see how, from an MMO business perspective, how bad of an idea it was.

Svarty II
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.07 22:40:00 - [522]
 

Originally by: Vexidious
Yeah! Screw those new players, wanting to actually play the game without spending three months training up their learning skills! Nobody likes noobs anyway. After all, I'm sure that CCP has no interest at all in making more money, right?

On a more serious note, I do think that the learning skill "punch in the gut" that new players get is a good indication of the overall Eve experience, but I can certainly see how, from an MMO business perspective, how bad of an idea it was.


I think the learning skills are a great idea. You don't HAVE to learn them. If you want to make learning easier, then do that, but don't remove the learning skills.

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.08 10:22:00 - [523]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 08/07/2010 10:26:48
Originally by: Svarty II
I think the learning skills are a great idea. You don't HAVE to learn them. If you want to make learning easier, then do that, but don't remove the learning skills.

The same flawed argument again. Yes you can drive a car with 1 gear but having more is pretty mandatory to be able to use the car if you want to get anywhere withing a reasonable timeframe. More gears may be "optional" but pratically it isn't.

Anyway I don't think CCP wants a lot of new players. Their servers already can't handle 50k and they really do their best to make the tutorial optional and extremely basic so most rookies have no idea how the game works. Then they hear about the learning skills and that's it for many rookies. So yeah "working as intended". Too bad more players = more income = more devs that can fix bugs instead of working on PI stuff and such. But well apparently the playerbase doesn't want it differently.

Star P'ergish
Posted - 2010.07.08 11:51:00 - [524]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 08/07/2010 10:26:48
bla bla bla


You are very stupid just shut up and play!

Bilko Bobski
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.08 12:09:00 - [525]
 

I agree; learning skills are nothing but trouble really - making the start of the game a real slog to get into for new players as I think e can all agree that if you don't get the learning skills quickly, you'll be losing out in the long-run to the extent that it isn't really feasible to do so. However, I do still like the skillpoints system itself - without it, we'd end up just flying around the same missions all day having to pop rat X in order to gain Y experience to get to level Z.

My solution would be to remove learning skills, and add a new learning module/rig for ships - requiring a certain skill to use effectively. This module would be akin to having an on-board library, or more advanced skill-injection system; meaning you'd be able to learn certain skills faster while in your ship (and in game terms could function using learning-scripts, bought from the market). The advantages of such a system would be:

1)More accessible learning system for new players to get into
2)More of a focus of being in your ship instead of being in a station/offline to learn
3)Risk vs Reward of training a skill faster, by sacrificing a combat slot
4)Risk vs Reward of having to keep your ship outside of a station for more of the day
5)Benefit of linking learning into the economy

Just an idea, but I feel it would help to solve the issue of "if we got rid of learning skill (which we want to) then what will we replace it with?".

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.08 12:10:00 - [526]
 

Originally by: Pantload
I've already seen the post where they were calling to remove attribute implants and just give everyone the +5. I support AterraX on this. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If we can't come up with a good compromise ( and not this goddamn welfare plan ) then we should take the skills out of the game entirely and just let everybody get ****ed and hate it. There is not a good reason to give a large bonus to people who would otherwise not expend the time to get the bonus for themselves.

Who is talking about replacing the implants?

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.07.08 13:15:00 - [527]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Who is talking about replacing the implants?


CCP is giving everyone +5 implants when the Learning skills go away?!?

Fits right in with them giving everyone +10 attribute points per stat too!!!

Alright! +15 to every stat - thanks CCP!!!

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.08 14:02:00 - [528]
 

Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Who is talking about replacing the implants?


CCP is giving everyone +5 implants when the Learning skills go away?!?

Fits right in with them giving everyone +10 attribute points per stat too!!!

Alright! +15 to every stat - thanks CCP!!!

Dude, you should seriously work on your trolling skills. Even my mom could do it better.
How to troll

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.07.08 14:30:00 - [529]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Dude, you should seriously work on your trolling skills. Even my mom could do it better.
How to troll


Trolling? Nope - just rereading past replies.

Stoicfaux has presented numerous examples using EveMon with either 4/4/4 or 5/4/5 or 5/5/5 as the basis for debate. A brand new player - the same type of players you anti-Learning skill folks are raging over, could not afford the tier three Learning skill books, much less either +4 or +5 implants. Yet his examples have shown how a brand new player can really be in the thick of the game within a few months if they go the Learning skill tree route first, especially when the same examples have these new players loaded down in higher end implants. And since you anti-Learning skill folks are preaching how CCP will grant everyone +10 attributes once those dreaded Learning skills are removed, to get those same new players into the thick of the game, they should, and will, be granted +5 implants.

I guess Cybernetics 5 will be an automatically trained skill too. Just think on how happy all those new players you folks are fighting the good fight will be having a boost of this nature! They'll be flying battleships just like in the videos!

And they'll have you anti-Learning skill people to thank. Very Happy

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.08 14:46:00 - [530]
 

Edited by: Jasdemi on 08/07/2010 14:46:36
So you still think it's better for newbies to sit in a station, training learnings for few months and playing Counterstrike in the meantime?

Why shouldn't new players actually get to play the game they paid for from day one? Why should they pay subs for 3+ months, login every few days to update their learning skill queues and logout again.

It's not like they'll be able to jump into Battleships in 2 days and pwn vets(which you're afraid off). Months of more skill training will be required just to become competitive in pvp.

I don't even get it why you're QQ'ing about the learnings so much. Will they hurt any players in EVE? Will CCP make less profit? No.

I don't believe it, I'm wasting my time to some obvious troll alt.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.08 14:51:00 - [531]
 

Edited by: Pantload on 08/07/2010 14:55:24
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Pantload
I've already seen the post where they were calling to remove attribute implants and just give everyone the +5. I support AterraX on this. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If we can't come up with a good compromise ( and not this goddamn welfare plan ) then we should take the skills out of the game entirely and just let everybody get ****ed and hate it. There is not a good reason to give a large bonus to people who would otherwise not expend the time to get the bonus for themselves.

Who is talking about replacing the implants?


Just one example of a player calling for this:
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Edited by: Aineko Macx on 01/07/2010 13:14:27
I had to lol, because that is exactly the opposite of what I'd propose: Remove attribute implants altogether.

Your proposal exacerbates the following issues:
1) It is an additional disadvatage to newer/poorer players; "pay to advance" is bad game design.
2) Even more hassle to keep using jump clones (and wait on timers) for doing pvp to protect expensive implants and be able to benefit from them when not pewing.

So: Hell no.

EDIT: When removing implants, give players +5 to attributes across the board to compensate. Those who already have implants (pluged in and not) can reimburse them for the ISK and LP they are worth in the LP store.


For the record: I don't support this either. It's some more of this "Welfare for the Newbs" mentality that is running rampant these days.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.07.08 16:00:00 - [532]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
So you still think it's better for newbies to sit in a station, training learnings for few months and playing Counterstrike in the meantime?


One dumb developer stated that remark in a fanfest video and you folks use that as your grounds for removing them. Interestingly enough, didn't he state he did that with three accounts initially? So because he was stupid enough not to do anything else, therefore training Learning skills are stupid and need to be removed - gotcha. Perhaps you keep up this crusade and you can get a job with CCP too.


Originally by: Jasdemi
Why shouldn't new players actually get to play the game they paid for from day one? Why should they pay subs for 3+ months, login every few days to update their learning skill queues and logout again.


And just how many people have stated that route is not the path to take? But you anti-Learning people seem to ignore those comments, bordering upon being min/max type players. "Oh no - if you do NOT maximize everything, you will be perpetually gimped forever!" "You HAVE to sit there and do NOTHING except train the Learning skills because they give you NOTHING!!!" "You have no choice in the game - you HAVE to train them first and foremost!"

For something that apparently does nothing for players, you people are sure gung-ho on getting them out of the game.


Originally by: Jasdemi
It's not like they'll be able to jump into Battleships in 2 days and pwn vets(which you're afraid off). Months of more skill training will be required just to become competitive in pvp.


Perhaps that will be your next rally crusade - skills taking too long to become competitive in pvp.


Originally by: Jasdemi
I don't even get it why you're QQ'ing about the learnings so much. Will they hurt any players in EVE? Will CCP make less profit? No.


My stance has been to take them out and nothing further - no bonus attribute points. Let people train at a slower rate and experience the lower end of the game longer than just a blip on their skill training. Let's really make this a cold, harsh game.


Originally by: Jasdemi
I don't believe it, I'm wasting my time to some obvious troll alt.


You staring in the mirror again, ready to have a good cry?

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.08 16:41:00 - [533]
 

Originally by: Guttripper

Originally by: Jasdemi

It's not like they'll be able to jump into Battleships in 2 days and pwn vets(which you're afraid off). Months of more skill training will be required just to become competitive in pvp.


Perhaps that will be your next rally crusade - skills taking too long to become competitive in pvp.




This. This is next. It won't stop with the removal of learning skills. There will be ever greater calls for changes to the game that result in more and more instant gratification. There is currently a prevalent ( and growing ) attitude that having to wait for anything to happen in this game is totally unacceptable.

Maximus Mordel
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Posted - 2010.07.08 17:01:00 - [534]
 

I don't post much as you can tell. However, I have been playing since August of 2006 with about a 5-6 month span of inactivity. When I started, I didn't train learning skills immediately to 5/4 and I didn't feel left behind or "held back". I threw learning skills in as I found the time, patience, or when I wanted to train a lot of skills that required certain attributes. They are now at 5/5 save Charisma which is 5/4.

I still had fun, I still play, I don't see a major issue with the system as it is. I look at my high learning skills as a part of growing with EVE and learning the game. If someone feels that they can't enjoy the game unless their learning skills are 5/5 then they won't be playing EVE very long anyway, as there are way harsher things in this game we play.

I think we as older players need to remember what it was like to be completely fresh and new to EVE, and not look at the experience of a new player through veteran eyes. A lot of things were hard as a new player, and that sense of investment is what kept me here so long. A lot of new players get turned off by this early difficulty, but the ones that stick through it are loyal and committed players for the most part, and they make better corpmates and competition in the long run. You can see that the EVE player base has grown over time not reduced.

The learning skills are a pain and maybe they could use some revising...such as removing the advanced version and giving a +2 per level rather than a +1 on the basic learning skills to ease the pain a bit, but the skill system in general creates a long term and committed player base and weeds out the "fly by night" gamers. This makes a better experience for all of us.

If subscriptions begin to fall off terribly and the star systems become empty it will not be because players feel they have to train Learning Skills, but because EVE stopped being the unforgiving, pain inducing, harsh, and addictive galaxy we all still play after all these years.

Arnold Predator
Special Situations
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:13:00 - [535]
 

Originally by: Maximus Mordel

The learning skills are a pain and maybe they could use some revising...such as removing the advanced version and giving a +2 per level rather than a +1 on the basic learning skills to ease the pain a bit, but the skill system in general creates a long term and committed player base and weeds out the "fly by night" gamers. This makes a better experience for all of us.
quote]

I support this idea. It still is up to the player to train the learning skills. Its not a hand out like what a lot of people are asking for. It will take less time for new players to get into the game. Its easy to implement.

I have been playing the game for 8 months now and find the learning skills a pain. Should they be removed entirely... NO. What the people that don't want the learning skills are asking for is a free ride. Nothing in eve is free so to me giving everyone +5 implants and +10 points to each attribute is going way to far. I had to earn the isk it cost me to get my +5 implants. I spent days PLAYING THE GAME to save up for the next implant so I could train the next skill that little bit faster. If everyone was just given implants and attribute points out the gate it would take away a lot from the game. Iím not with the pack that says I trained them so should everyone else. I feel that the learning skills are good for new players to have to choose to train or not. I learned so much about the game when I was PLAYING it to save up for new skill books/implants. The basic learning skills still take weeks to train all of them up to level 5 so its not a hand out by any means. Itís still a time sink but its no ware near as bad as the months it takes the advanced skills to train.

To counter the 2 attribute points per skill level trained make it so the learning skills don't get the 2x speed bonus at the start of the game. Say something about how these skills can't be rushed because there so important in the UI of the game and there you go. It takes less time to get new players in the game, they will understand that the learning skills are important to train because of the 2x attribute bonus/cant use speed bonus at start of game, there won't be much to do server side(no giving 300K players attribute points or implants), the learning skills will still be in the game(to keep vets happy),and you won't have noobs with full level 5 skills at the start of the game or even by the end of there 1.6 mill sp speed bonus so they will still have a lot to learn before they can go pop vets in a BS 2 weeks after first signing up.

Or another way that might make things better. Take away the advanced learning skills. Then take the 10 attributes points that you used to get and remap them to the five basic learning skills. Make level 5 grant 4.5 attribute points, level 4 grants 3, level 2 grants 2 and level 1 grant .5. Make the basic learning skills a level 2 and not a level one to make up for the lack of advanced skills. Training them will still very important to new players but if they want 45% of the bonus the learning skills provide they need to invest time to take them to level 5. By having the more pain more gain system on these skills only you can get 65% of the bonus but you training for a much shorter time. That last step to level 5 will be important but not nearly as much as it is now. Yes I know there is still a time sink with both ideas but [b]I Belive [/b]that either option would be better then just removing the skills all together and giving hand outs.

Maximus Mordel thanks for the idea about the 2 skill point per skill level... I took the idea and ran with it a litte bit.

Arnold Predator
Special Situations
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:47:00 - [536]
 

small math error in my above post. in the second option I stated that skill level 5 should grant 4.5 points. It should read 3.5 points. the parts about level 5 providing a 45% bonus should be 35% due to my maths being off. Sorry

Joahanas Stone
Caldari
Star Fox Corp.
Posted - 2010.07.09 02:28:00 - [537]
 

How about CCP give new accounts the option of spending $45 for a advanced training class. This option would give the beginning account lvl 3 in each of the 5 tier 1 learning skills. And I would add the minimum skills for flying the next frigate up from a noob ship of their chosen race. CCP gets the money for 3 months of skill training and we don't have to wait for it if we make a second account ugh

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.09 13:51:00 - [538]
 

Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/07/2010 13:51:23
Originally by: Joahanas Stone
How about CCP give new accounts the option of spending $45 for a advanced training class. This option would give the beginning account lvl 3 in each of the 5 tier 1 learning skills. And I would add the minimum skills for flying the next frigate up from a noob ship of their chosen race. CCP gets the money for 3 months of skill training and we don't have to wait for it if we make a second account ugh

Training Learnings tier 1 to level 3 takes 3 months? WTF are you talking about? How about you use your brain first before you post something next time, ok?

Star P'ergish
Posted - 2010.07.09 15:31:00 - [539]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/07/2010 13:51:23
Originally by: Joahanas Stone
How about CCP give new accounts the option of spending $45 for a advanced training class. This option would give the beginning account lvl 3 in each of the 5 tier 1 learning skills. And I would add the minimum skills for flying the next frigate up from a noob ship of their chosen race. CCP gets the money for 3 months of skill training and we don't have to wait for it if we make a second account ugh

Training Learnings tier 1 to level 3 takes 3 months? WTF are you talking about? How about you use your brain first before you post something next time, ok?

Since you don't have brain at all how come you post here?
There is NO FREE RIDE IN EVE get it through to your empty head shmack!
Stop trolling start playing maybe you can learn something one day.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.10 08:51:00 - [540]
 

Originally by: Star P'ergish
Originally by: Jasdemi
Edited by: Jasdemi on 09/07/2010 13:51:23
Originally by: Joahanas Stone
How about CCP give new accounts the option of spending $45 for a advanced training class. This option would give the beginning account lvl 3 in each of the 5 tier 1 learning skills. And I would add the minimum skills for flying the next frigate up from a noob ship of their chosen race. CCP gets the money for 3 months of skill training and we don't have to wait for it if we make a second account ugh

Training Learnings tier 1 to level 3 takes 3 months? WTF are you talking about? How about you use your brain first before you post something next time, ok?

Since you don't have brain at all how come you post here?
There is NO FREE RIDE IN EVE get it through to your empty head shmack!
Stop trolling start playing maybe you can learn something one day.


Oh, you shouldn't worry about me. I'm playing EVE all day long, my learnings skills are also all maxed. I could be actually like you selfish vets and post dumb posts that learnings are good for the game. However I want the game to improve and the removal of learning skills will improve the newbie's experience, which will lead to more subscriptions. Grumpy vets will get their invested learning SP back anyway, so the chance is 99,99% that they WON'T leave the game due to this harmless change.


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