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Victor Zwichengastaz
Posted - 2010.07.04 21:48:00 - [481]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Removing learning skills would anger too many people.


Yes, but would it actually *hurt* anybody?


No, and considering the number of years EVE has already run, it's high time they accellerated the skilling process for new pilots. We've seen plenty of raising the bar on the high end, but almost nothing to help catch players up to that level. Removing learning skills is a great stride in that direction and I certainly hope we can see that become reality soon.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.05 03:18:00 - [482]
 

Originally by: Reldor Silverheart
How many times does it takes to say this, but i'll say it again. ... A new char doesn't have to spend it's first months to train the learning skills. ... Learning skills are a long term investment, preferably something you train after you at least have basic career skills and specalize the learning skills around that career, NOT something you do for the first months of your playtime.


Wrong, wrong, wrong. The learning skills are NOT a long term investment. They can easily pay off in the short term, and since they pay off so quickly if you use the accelerated training time, you have to be very short sighted to tell someone to put off the learning skills.

For example, it takes ~14 days to get to 4/4/4 (all basic to IV, all advanced to IV, learning to IV) under the accelerated training time.

Let's say that new characters Alice and Bob set their Perception and Intelligence to 12 and 12 (perc for flying and int for fitting.) Alice skips the learning skills while Bob trains them to 4/4/4. According to Evemon, after ~58 days Bob will have all the skills that Alice has plus the 4/4/4 learning skills.

It took just *two months* for the 4/4/4 learning skills to pay off, but only if you trained them for the first two weeks of your character's life.

And once the 58 days are up, Bob is going to seriously outpace Alice:
* Alice's learning rate: primary 15, secondary 9 = 1,170 sp/hr
* Bob's learning rate: primary, 24.84 secondary, 18.36 = 2,041.2 sp/hr
That's a 179% training rate. For every two months that Alice trains, Bob is getting 3.5 months of training in.

Finally, since Alice put off the learning skills until she was outside of the accelerated training bonus, it will take her 28 days to get them to 4/4/4.



Quote:
The first months of a player should be about getting a feel for the game and see if it is something they like or not.


Agreed. However, the current system of giving newbies two free remaps and the accelerated training time tends to discourage that. It would be better advice to tell the new player to create a throw away character and train some basic profession skills in order to have some fun and earn isk. They then stop training on the throw away character and train a 2nd character on the account and and get the learning skills to at least 4/4/4. Once the 2nd character surpasses the throw away, then switch the new 2nd character permanently.


Paulus Reveer
Posted - 2010.07.05 05:33:00 - [483]
 

Interesting ...

An excellent new Introductory routine for beginners -- basics and skills and story .. not too bad at all !!

Many many thoughts on abolishing Learning Skills as essentially discouraging for those new players ...

An almost complete lack of appreciation of the Learning Queue as a beginner's aid -- how many skills can we pack into 24 hours? ... for players with 20 million + SPs and skill levels at 3+, 25hrs or 25 days plays the same way for training: one skill only. The training question becomes: can you check in to schedule the next one??

And an excellent question for those with irregular playing habits (for whatever reason): why bother? Why pay for 3 or 6 months when you can play for only a few hours (or not at all) any given month? One good month? OK! Cancel until you can play again ...

Why bother drawing in new players -- or trying to keep them involved? Why bother providing incentives for those who don't have multiple accounts, aren't PvP corp players or can't play for several hours every day? That is, the other 75% of players ...

In spite of the attractions of big corp space battles, a lot of time and attention has gone into creating viable game alternatives -- exploration, mining, salvage ops, manufacturing, missions .... Eve for the rest of us.

So, not to put too fine a point on it, consider some form of Skill Bank as a natural extension of the Introductory routine: eliminate Learning skills, supplement the Queue, provide a minimal incentive for players to remain subscribed without unbalancing the system -- a way for players to see some character progress even if they can't log in every day.

On the other hand, Small is Good, right?

OT Smithers
Posted - 2010.07.05 06:30:00 - [484]
 

Seems like a no brainer to me. These add nothing to the game except an incentive for new players to cancel -- as though there were not enough of those already.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.05 20:00:00 - [485]
 

Don't forget to cast your vote here:

[Proposal] Learning skills solution

Sazkyen
Posted - 2010.07.05 22:53:00 - [486]
 


Remove? Yeeeees. Yeeeees.

That is definitely the right way of thinking.

Please do remove them. And, ofc, give us back the SP via the new tool.

Excellent idea. Most excellent.


AlphaAngel
Posted - 2010.07.05 23:50:00 - [487]
 

Edited by: AlphaAngel on 06/07/2010 00:32:06
Im just going to add one thought here, I asked it in a different thread but didn't really get an answer.

First let me state that I wouldn't mind learning skills being removed as I see more advantages than disadvantages to it, even though mine are all at 5/5.

I understand and think the idea of adding +10 to base attributes plus what ever the learning skill itself equates to and reimbursing the SP is a good one but here is my concern:

I am rounding out figures here for simplicity.

Player A spends their time getting learning skills to 5/5

Player B spends time getting theirs to 3/4

CCP adopts the idea as stated above.

Player A gets 5 million SP reimbursed

Player B gets 2 million SP reimbursed

Player A gains nothing as has already spent the time and money to get these attributes

Player B gains x amount of attribute points for no time invested, so essentially something for nothing

Now personally i wouldn't mind that much as it would make the game more accessible which would hopeful increase the player base (ignoring lag issues), but you can bet the whiners would be out in force once they realize this 'injustice'.

Hope that all made sense!

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.06 01:55:00 - [488]
 

/rant

Remove engineering skills...

Every player that want to fly a ships, need to train engineering skills.
Be it for more cap, better cap recharge, more shield, better shield recharge ect.

This is unfair as EvE is a spaceship game and it is not fair that new players NEED to train these to get the maximum out of a ship.
you need to "waste" over 5 million SP in Engineering skills in order to get the maximum out of your ship.

It can't be true that you need to invest so many SP's just to be able to really be able to use your ship.

I suggest that we remove all engineering skills, as there should be no need to train these skills, because it is unfair to new players...and older players that have their focus elsewhere is being punished for not training these skills.

That is what the hate to learning skills is really boiled down to.

Replace "Engineering skills" with any other sub catagory eg. "Navigation" or "Mechanic"...or any other skills group you havn't trained and you are buthurt over that others have trained and you have you very own formula for a whine topic that makes no sense.

Keep your ****ing hands of my 5.376.000 SP in learning...and I won't whine about and demand a removal of skills you have trained that I havn't...deal?




Solistalia
Posted - 2010.07.06 05:07:00 - [489]
 

As someone who just subbed on like...Thursday...7/1/2010 or so my account says....If people cannot get over the "Learn learning skills hump"...Do not learn them? A friend of mine told me to get them as high as possible as fast as possible....Bah to that crap. Ya learning skills are important overall and long term (what is NOT longterm in this game? :D )but you DO NOT NEED 5/5 OR 4/3 within a month. If you aim for 5/5 or 4/3 straight up...Have fun, 90% of new players will quit because of WOW syndrome. Start simple, aim for 3/0...It takes all of like...1.5 days...Instant Recall -> Analytical Mind -> Learning then go 2/2/2 and 3/3/3 then toss in the other 3 (Empathy, Iron Will and Spiritual Awareness) to rank 3 and WOW its amazing...more stats...1.5 days....Thats like...zomg....log in, do some missions, buy the books, wham bam thank you mam, place in Q and go get some ass or something while they train.

1.5 days later.....You are now 3/0 in learning skills and got laid while doing it. Have fun go train whatever you want/need to do missions and explore the universe.

Two Weeks Later.....Skills slowing down...go for 4/0? Shocked...Time to go find a weekend booty call....>_> do we see where this is going folks? YOU DO NOT NEED TO TRAIN THEM 4/3 OR 5/5 STRAIGHT UP! its your first character, your first account....Get one account up there and situated in low-sec or even 0.0 before trying to slam in all these learning skills...do that with a 2nd account....

Now before anyone makes a post or anything about "Oh your friend probably hooked you up with stuff n ISK.." WRONG! the dude is half worthless cause he owes his brother ISK and hasnt played for like a year....His brother on the other hand >_> Ya he helped me out...Like "Heres a plan, role a new character, heres your books, implants and some ISK n crap ships to blow up while you learn these skills..."....I made a 2nd account already because the learning of the learning skills are so boring its like watching paint dry while your friend is getting some on the otherside of the freaking wall.

If you KNOW its going to bore you...DONT DO IT! Making yourself bored is like knowing its going to hurt yet you stick you hand in a fire anyways. Learn from mistakes and have fun in a game before you do the boring stuff. It at least gives you alternatives to do while doing said boring stuff.

P.S. Rambling is a past time of mine. Deal with it or don't read the above post. If you read that before this...haha sucks to be you :)

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.06 09:20:00 - [490]
 

Originally by: AterraX
/rant

Remove engineering skills...

Every player that want to fly a ships, need to train engineering skills.
Be it for more cap, better cap recharge, more shield, better shield recharge ect.

This is unfair as EvE is a spaceship game and it is not fair that new players NEED to train these to get the maximum out of a ship.
you need to "waste" over 5 million SP in Engineering skills in order to get the maximum out of your ship.

It can't be true that you need to invest so many SP's just to be able to really be able to use your ship.

I suggest that we remove all engineering skills, as there should be no need to train these skills, because it is unfair to new players...and older players that have their focus elsewhere is being punished for not training these skills.




You picked engineering skills? Really? If you're going to create a strawman argument you might atleast have picked a skill category that more people would be interested in maxing out. Its only got 3 skills that are arguably "must haves", namely Engineering, Energy Management and Energy Systems Operation. And even then only combat pilots really need to worry about them. Last time I checked, hulk pilots didn't have great difficulty with their powergrid or capacitor.

Skills that some people want to train and others don't are good. Choices based on character specialisation, yay. Skills that everyone wants to train, and train early, because their effects are so pronounced, are bad. As Stoicfaux pointed off, 4/4/4 learning skills are *completely* paid off in only 58 days. Thus everyone wants to get them as early as they can stomach doing so, thus there are no interesting decisions involved.

Eve Antonovich
Posted - 2010.07.06 09:29:00 - [491]
 

Originally by: AlphaAngel
Edited by: AlphaAngel on 06/07/2010 00:32:06
Im just going to add one thought here, I asked it in a different thread but didn't really get an answer.

First let me state that I wouldn't mind learning skills being removed as I see more advantages than disadvantages to it, even though mine are all at 5/5.

I understand and think the idea of adding +10 to base attributes plus what ever the learning skill itself equates to and reimbursing the SP is a good one but here is my concern:

I am rounding out figures here for simplicity.

Player A spends their time getting learning skills to 5/5

Player B spends time getting theirs to 3/4

CCP adopts the idea as stated above.

Player A gets 5 million SP reimbursed

Player B gets 2 million SP reimbursed

Player A gains nothing as has already spent the time and money to get these attributes

Player B gains x amount of attribute points for no time invested, so essentially something for nothing

Now personally i wouldn't mind that much as it would make the game more accessible which would hopeful increase the player base (ignoring lag issues), but you can bet the whiners would be out in force once they realize this 'injustice'.

Hope that all made sense!




Actually in your example, player A has had the benefits of 5/5 learnings on their training speed for however long they have them, then gets the SP's invested to gain that advantage to spend on other skills.

After the process, both Player A and Player B have the same attributes, and will train at the same rate.

In essence, the investment that Player A made, gained Player A a sizable number of points over time, with zero time cost since he gets those points to spend again on other skills.

I like the idea too, learning skills have always irritated me somewhat - probably because I have 16 toons they are trained on (yeah, I'm an eve addict).

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.06 13:38:00 - [492]
 

Originally by: AterraX
/rant

Remove engineering skills...

Every player that want to fly a ships, need to train engineering skills.
Be it for more cap, better cap recharge, more shield, better shield recharge ect.

This is unfair as EvE is a spaceship game and it is not fair that new players NEED to train these to get the maximum out of a ship.
you need to "waste" over 5 million SP in Engineering skills in order to get the maximum out of your ship.

It can't be true that you need to invest so many SP's just to be able to really be able to use your ship.

I suggest that we remove all engineering skills, as there should be no need to train these skills, because it is unfair to new players...and older players that have their focus elsewhere is being punished for not training these skills.

That is what the hate to learning skills is really boiled down to.

Replace "Engineering skills" with any other sub catagory eg. "Navigation" or "Mechanic"...or any other skills group you havn't trained and you are buthurt over that others have trained and you have you very own formula for a whine topic that makes no sense.

Keep your ****ing hands of my 5.376.000 SP in learning...and I won't whine about and demand a removal of skills you have trained that I havn't...deal?






This.


@Takseen: There's only 3 skills in Engineering worth having and only combat pilots need those? what?! There are like 19 skills in that group and quite a few more than 3 are useful.

I like AterraX's argument though. Removing the learning skills entirely from the game is not the greatest idea in the world. It also won't cause new players to sign up and stick around in droves. After we remove the learning skills, then what? I've already seen the proposal to remove the attribute enhancing implants and just give everyone +5. Really? You people who don't want to be bothered with the learning skills, what next? What skill or group will begin to look to you like you should not have to "waste" your time on it next? Which skill or group will have to go away next? Which one will I get my next refund on? How far does this go really?

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.06 13:51:00 - [493]
 

Originally by: Pantload



@Takseen: There's only 3 skills in Engineering worth having and only combat pilots need those? what?! There are like 19 skills in that group and quite a few more than 3 are useful.




That's not what I said, perhaps if you spent less time constructing slippery slope arguments, you'd have noticed that.

I open up my Engineering tab in Evemon. There are 11 skills I haven't trained at all, 3 others I have at minimal levels, and 5 skills I have at IV or V, three of those being the "must-haves" that I mentioned. That's because the other skills either don't benefit me at all, or not enough to train over other skills that suit me more. As you said yourself, there's more than 3 useful skills in there, but they're not useful to *everyone*.

Now I open up my Learning tab. I've trained every single skill either to Level III or IV(clarity and presence are still at III). And I guarantee that nearly every pilot's skill tab would look almost exactly the same, except they might have more skills at V. That's because there aren't enough interesting choices in that area, except which skills you take to IV or V.

Atichituk
Mining And Industry Giants
Honourable Templum of Alcedonia
Posted - 2010.07.06 14:09:00 - [494]
 

Remove Learning skills, give everyone +10, reimburse SP and Iskies to those who already trained them, everybody wins.

New players don't have to spend time training for better Attributes and older players get to spend their newly refunded SP on exciting stuff \o/

Sounds simple enough



Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.06 14:27:00 - [495]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Pantload



@Takseen: There's only 3 skills in Engineering worth having and only combat pilots need those? what?! There are like 19 skills in that group and quite a few more than 3 are useful.




That's not what I said, perhaps if you spent less time constructing slippery slope arguments, you'd have noticed that.

I open up my Engineering tab in Evemon. There are 11 skills I haven't trained at all, 3 others I have at minimal levels, and 5 skills I have at IV or V, three of those being the "must-haves" that I mentioned. That's because the other skills either don't benefit me at all, or not enough to train over other skills that suit me more. As you said yourself, there's more than 3 useful skills in there, but they're not useful to *everyone*.

Now I open up my Learning tab. I've trained every single skill either to Level III or IV(clarity and presence are still at III). And I guarantee that nearly every pilot's skill tab would look almost exactly the same, except they might have more skills at V. That's because there aren't enough interesting choices in that area, except which skills you take to IV or V.


You are a funny little person. Did you get an A+ in your junior debate class?

It's a goofy statement that only 3 skills in the Engineering group are useful. It just is. You can't justify that fact away or the fact that you said it. Also, that is all quite off topic.

Mark my words: Removing the learning skills will not improve new player retention.

Interestingly enough, what it does do is give a leg up to players like Takseen there who is obviously lower skilled and can't be bothered to finish his learning skills. He ( and many of you ) just want that handed to you for free and easy.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.06 15:02:00 - [496]
 

Originally by: Pantload


Interestingly enough, what it does do is give a leg up to players like Takseen there who is obviously lower skilled and can't be bothered to finish his learning skills. He ( and many of you ) just want that handed to you for free and easy.


So...you consider it mandatory to get learnings to 5/5, and you think this doesn't just prove my point even more? If there's only one "correct" level to have those skills at, then there's no choice or strategy involved as so many others have claimed.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.06 15:37:00 - [497]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Pantload


Interestingly enough, what it does do is give a leg up to players like Takseen there who is obviously lower skilled and can't be bothered to finish his learning skills. He ( and many of you ) just want that handed to you for free and easy.


So...you consider it mandatory to get learnings to 5/5, and you think this doesn't just prove my point even more? If there's only one "correct" level to have those skills at, then there's no choice or strategy involved as so many others have claimed.


I didn't say there is only 1 correct level. You did. You gotta get a firmer grip on reality there, chief. You and all the others who want rid of the learning skills. I trained mine to the level that matched my patience and my goals and the predicted pay off times based on how long I thought I'd play this game. If that is not strategy, then nothing is.

Face it, you only want rid of them so you can get the free bonus that puts you even with people who trained them all the way. Tell me again why new players should train at exactly the same speed as old players? After this goes through, all you who got your free stuff will realize that people out there also have cyber implants that might be better than yours. Then guess what! You'll want rid of those too!

You, Takseen, are a text book example of sense of entitlement run wild. You are the poster child for all the other whiners in this thread. I've been here a LOT longer than you. Explain to me why your opinion carries any more weight than mine. You can't because it doesn't.

I say if you and the others want rid of the learning skills then let's get rid of them. No free bonuses. No nothing. I don't even want my SP back in that case. I'd gladly get screwed out of all that if it would prevent you and all the others from getting something for nothing.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.06 15:47:00 - [498]
 

Originally by: Pantload


Tell me again why new players should train at exactly the same speed as old players?




Good question, why shouldn't new players train at exactly the same speed as old players?

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.06 16:30:00 - [499]
 

Edited by: Jasdemi on 06/07/2010 16:29:53
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Pantload


Tell me again why new players should train at exactly the same speed as old players?




Good question, why shouldn't new players train at exactly the same speed as old players?

Good question, why shouldn't we all be hippies just like our (grand)parents?

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.06 16:34:00 - [500]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 06/07/2010 16:35:37
Originally by: AterraX
/rant
Remove engineering skills...



Gee, do you think that this slippery slope concern/argument hasn't already come up a few times in a 17 page thread? At least have the courtesy to skim a few pages before re-hashing an old trite argument.

Are you really that incapable of differentiating between the learning skills and normal skills? Apparently you are, so let me explain the actual problem:

Newbies are encouraged or advised to train the learning skills as high as possible for the first month or so. Advising someone to spend their first month of play on something as boring as the learning skills is really stupid from a fun point of view and from a "keeping the customer" business point of view.

So why are they being advised to do something that basically amounts to a month of boredom? Because it's *smart* to burn a new character's accelerated training time and first free remap and grind the learning skills for the first month. The learning skills pay off quickly enough that you'll save significant training time later.

A few posts up, I just showed an example of how spending your first two weeks getting your learning skills to 4/4/4 pays for itself within two months. It's actually a good idea to play on a trial account while your subscription account skills up the learning skills for two weeks. Do you think that makes for a Good Newbie Experience? That it's a good business practice?

Then, in order to maximize that first free remap and to finish off the remaining accelerated training time, folks tend to go ahead and get the basic learning skills to V and the learning skill to V.


And that's why people are so hot to get rid of the learning skills and just hand out the attribute points. It's also why the idea has finally gained serious traction recently. The current system encourages any newbie with half a brain to be bored for their first month. Which is really dumb game design.


So if you to add something useful to this threadnaught, then you might want to propose an alternate solution that doesn't encourage smart people from spending their first month on the learning skills.


Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.06 16:34:00 - [501]
 

Edited by: Pantload on 06/07/2010 17:02:10
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Pantload


Tell me again why new players should train at exactly the same speed as old players?




Good question, why shouldn't new players train at exactly the same speed as old players?


It is better than a good question. It's an excellent question and you didn't bother to answer it. You simply reframed it in terms of your sense of entitlement.

It is a very common game design element that a player's ability to gain SP/XP goes up as the player ages or becomes more advanced.

Show me another MMO where brand new players can earn SP/XP at exactly the same rate as older or more advanced players.

Besides, you are missing an important point here. You almost made me miss it. Luckily I'm quite a bit more clever than you. The problem is this: On this issue, you are the representation for the prosecution and I am the representation for the defense. The burden of proof here is ON YOU. You have not met your burden of proof.

You people who want rid of the learning skills remind me of children who won't eat their vegetables.

*edit*
@stoicfaux: I followed your argument carefully. It's very compelling...that remaps and double speed training bonuses should be removed.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.06 16:49:00 - [502]
 

Originally by: Pantload
You people who want rid of the learning skills remind me of children who won't eat their vegetables.


Good: "You can't have your dessert until you finish your vegetables."

Bad: "If you eat nothing but half-portions of vegetables for a month, you can have double desserts forever."

"half-portions of vegetables" = The accelerated training bonus and first free remap basically lets newbies train the learning skills in half the time that it took us vets to train them in the old days.

"double desserts" = worst case, you can almost double your training speed.


In the old days, the learning skills could be trained in small doses and as needed without being grossly inefficient. For new characters, that's no longer true.



Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.06 17:05:00 - [503]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Pantload
You people who want rid of the learning skills remind me of children who won't eat their vegetables.


Good: "You can't have your dessert until you finish your vegetables."

Bad: "If you eat nothing but half-portions of vegetables for a month, you can have double desserts forever."

"half-portions of vegetables" = The accelerated training bonus and first free remap basically lets newbies train the learning skills in half the time that it took us vets to train them in the old days.

"double desserts" = worst case, you can almost double your training speed.


In the old days, the learning skills could be trained in small doses and as needed without being grossly inefficient. For new characters, that's no longer true.






Ok, I understand the point you are making. My question is this then: Are you still in favor of your recent proposal on fixing this or have you adopted more of a stance of removing the skills entirely?

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.07.06 17:15:00 - [504]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Good question, why shouldn't new players train at exactly the same speed as old players?


*hopefully a more civilized answer...

If two players are training a skill at the same speed, then it would be safe to say both have the same attributes at the same amount. But there is a possibility that one player may have a better implant but poorer Learning skills. So if the Learning skills were to be removed, then implants would have to be removed to allow both players to retain the same attributes at the same amount and thus the same training speed.

Since there are five attributes in total and depending upon how a player sets the attributes, if he or she attempts to keep them perfectly balanced, then one attribute will be one shorter due to the total number granted by CCP. Based upon my ~new~ character, that pilot started with eight in every attribute except charisma which started at seven. Thus again, to keep a perfect balance between two players training at the same speed, either CCP needs to add one extra attribute to charisma in this example _or_ take one away from the other four attributes.

Neural remapping, along with the initial 1.6 million speed bonus, would have to be removed, to not allow any one player - new or old, to get a jump ahead of the others. CCP would have to reorganize the ranks for the skills to keep a balance between them too. Would it be fair that a Combat pilot learning a rank five skill equalizes a cruiser while an Invention pilot learning a rank five skill equalizes many of the starship engineering skills?

So with everything perfectly balanced in terms of skills, should skill points total be brought into the question? Should the pilots that started seven plus years ago be the standard and everyone brought into the game afterward brought up to their total, to keep a balance? That is, a new player starting today should be granted seven plus years of skill points to spend as they need to keep all players training at the same speed, and at the same amounts too.

Should we consider collected total worth and redistribute it to make sure everyone is collecting at an even pace?

Since everything is being balanced and sterilized, there really would be no point in having an avatar description, background flavor, much less a name. CCP could really then balance everything by having one of every type of item in game so no one would have a subtle advantage over another player. Every pilot repairs, shoots, and takes damage at the same rate. So when one pilot explodes, there is a balance and all pilots explode so nobody has one destroyed ship over another player... Razz

This would be quite a boring game.

Hmmm, I think I went off-topic again!

Takseen
Posted - 2010.07.06 17:29:00 - [505]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 06/07/2010 17:34:28
Edited by: Takseen on 06/07/2010 17:33:27
Originally by: Pantload



It is a very common game design element that a player's ability to gain SP/XP goes up as the player ages or becomes more advanced.

Show me another MMO where brand new players can earn SP/XP at exactly the same rate as older or more advanced players.




Oh, good point. World of Warcraft does have a mechanic where veteran players can buy heirloom items that increase their XP gain by 10/20%. So I'll concede that point to you.

Really though its the way in which the training bonus is earned that bothers me the most. Wow(or any other MMO I'm aware of) doesn't reward new players that refuse to level up(or level up more slowly) for the first 1-8 weeks of their subscription time by then offering them an XP bonus in perpetuity. Because that would be utterly stupid.

If not for the fact that learning skills have been in the game for so long and are regarded as a sort of rite of passage all new players have to suffer through, I assume more people would realise that.

If you wanted to keep the "older players get to train skills faster" aspect, you could gradually add attribute bonuses to players as they get older instead.

Edit : And Guttripper. Yep, excellent point. Different learning speeds are fine:)
Edit2 : Oops, spelt your name wrong.

JiuTouNiao
Posted - 2010.07.06 17:29:00 - [506]
 

Originally by: Pantload
Besides, you are missing an important point here. You almost made me miss it. Luckily I'm quite a bit more clever than you. The problem is this: On this issue, you are the representation for the prosecution and I am the representation for the defense. The burden of proof here is ON YOU. You have not met your burden of proof.

You people who want rid of the learning skills remind me of children who won't eat their vegetables.


I don't think that's the case, while someone in favor of the learning skills may be defending the current state of things I still think he should be required to present "proof" for the validity of his position since comparing this to the rights of a defendant in court is a bit far fetched. There is no just or unjust treatment of a part of game design, the real issues lie elsewhere (and have thoroughly been discussed over the course of this thread, I assume).

I am torn, I see the advantages of getting rid of learning skills (however the suggested solution of +10 for all seems... weird, like a very neat and tidy patch on an odd shaped hole.)

On the other hand you are definitely right: A common design point in most MMO(RPG)s is how your ability to gain exp/money increases over time.

And I think THAT is the problem. Right now, in EVE the only increase over time would ideally be the upgrade of your implants as your money or skills allow, or a minor increase as you gain the final levels of learning skills.

Now if learning skills/learning skill levels had a minimum total SP requirement... (And maybe if the higher levels were a little cheaper, even if that would be out of line with all other skills.) However that would probably just serve to make implants much more important...

Personally I would benefit most from getting rid of the skills and having the points reimbursed, I could finally stop being mad at myself for training charisma up to V/IV...

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.06 17:43:00 - [507]
 

Originally by: Pantload
Ok, I understand the point you are making. My question is this then: Are you still in favor of your recent proposal on fixing this or have you adopted more of a stance of removing the skills entirely?


Good question. I'm still leaning towards the current proposal. If CCP keeps the accelerated training bonus and two free remaps, then I definitely support the proposal (see my 5/4/5 example that follows.) If the CCP does away with the training bonus and allows only one remap, then I can maybe see keeping the learning skills. They're still boring as heck, but at least you can train them in small doses.


I expanded my Alice and Bob example to include 5/4/5 learning skills and according to Evemon, the pay off is in a little over three months. After just three months Bob has every skill that Alice has plus the 5/4/5 learning skills.

Scenario: Bob and Alice remap their attributes to 12 int and 12 perception (for fitting and flying skills.) Alice relies on the accelerated training bonus to fly right away, Bob trains the learning skills for 42 days.

To Recap:
4/4/4 -> payoff in two months.
5/4/5 -> payoff in three months.

To add insult to injury, if Bob had burned a remap to optimize the training of the learning skills, getting to 5/4/5 would go from 42 days down to 33.5 days.


Ergo, it's Just Stupid(tm) for a new character not to spend their first month and first free remap on training the learning skills to 5/4/5. The payoff occurs in less than three months.


ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.07.06 19:22:00 - [508]
 

When I used to help train newer players one thing I told them was that players of an advanced age who may have a notable difference in skill points and will tell you very often this makes little difference to your character as a whole. You maybe diversified differently. This is something I’m pretty sure most players will tell you. Addressing an issue which I can see in this thread keeps cropping up is that of when to train the learning skills. Typically I would tell them the benefits of learning skills then let them decide. I would also advise that 2 weeks in the lifetime of a character is insignificant and as such they are not destined to train the learning skills immediately.

Taking into consideration a typical 5/4 learning plan I usually would suggest that training empathy to level 5 is rather pointless unless you feel you need a higher charisma level. In this case empathy is trained to 4 rather than 5 with the option to train it at a later stage. Some may never. A learning skill plan for a new character would in this case take 33 days. This is nothing like 2 months which some have suggested. I strongly feel I need to stress that not one player I have helped in the past has ever been put off by them. The feedback I used to get was similar to “hey these learning skills work well”.

Seriously if learning skills are really so much of an issue then giving new players learning skills to 4/3 with the option to completing them will meet much less hostility. Player with them already trained could be reimbursed with sp for the time it took to train them.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.06 19:24:00 - [509]
 

To clarify on a thought:

I'm not advocating a permanent training speed disparity. I think it should be easily possible for new players to catch up to the training speed of older players. I just think they need to have to do something ( anything ) game-related ( skill training, passage of time, something ) to sort of "earn" that. After a new player has played the game for a while and done whatever that thing is ( it's the learning skills and cyber implants currently ) then by all means let them train just as fast as the older players. I don't think the older players need to be able to train faster and faster as they go. There should probably be some practical speed limit on how cast one can train ( it's 2772 SP/hr atm and that seems about right ) and it should be straightforward enough ( maybe not fast mind you ) for new players to work their way up to that speed over the course of their first 6-12 months ( that timeframe is from my ass and is only an illustration ).

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.07 03:21:00 - [510]
 

Remove all learning skillbooks.
Problem solved.

What?
Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort? Rolling Eyes

Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.

That is the only solution I would support...


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