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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.02 02:37:00 - [451]
 

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who finds that odd. There is a thumb up, why no thumb down? makes no sense to me.Question

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.02 02:44:00 - [452]
 

Originally by: Vo Yager
Edited by: Vo Yager on 01/07/2010 22:52:36
Quote:
No, what I want is reimbursment for the time I wasted.

And you'll get that if CCP reimburses you all the skillpoints that you put into Learning. That's what your $30 paid for (as well as the ability to, you know, play the game). If you get those skillpoints back and get to put them into something else, then everything's square.

To sum up:
Quote:
my invested skill points
=
Quote:
either $30 per account or skill point equivelent to roughly 2 months

You don't get to stick an AND in between and ask for both.


Actually, the "AND" should be there. It's a emphasis on the point that it wasn't just the skill points that were invested into the learning skills. As those trying to have them removed have so often pointed out, you don't progress while training them. You can't use new ships that enable you to make more money. Therefor, I want reimbursement for the time spent in which I couldn't' progress and make ISK or participate with a corporation because my learning skills were training instead of the "fun skills". The entire post is a mark that it's more than simply skill points that are used on training them and for any form of reimbursement to be truly fair, we need something to replace the actual lack of progression that supposedly has sparked you all to want the skills removed. After all, no future player would have that lack of progression. It's quite funny how much you all toss aside you're old arguements the moment it's used to on you.

Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.07.02 07:42:00 - [453]
 

Originally by: Cash Render
Actually, the "AND" should be there. It's a emphasis on the point that it wasn't just the skill points that were invested into the learning skills. As those trying to have them removed have so often pointed out, you don't progress while training them. You can't use new ships that enable you to make more money. Therefor, I want reimbursement for the time spent in which I couldn't' progress and make ISK or participate with a corporation because my learning skills were training instead of the "fun skills". The entire post is a mark that it's more than simply skill points that are used on training them and for any form of reimbursement to be truly fair, we need something to replace the actual lack of progression that supposedly has sparked you all to want the skills removed. After all, no future player would have that lack of progression. It's quite funny how much you all toss aside you're old arguements the moment it's used to on you.


The likelihood of you learning the learning and attribute skills before anything else is close to 0 as you'd need ISK to buy the books, which as a newbie 8 months ago you wouldn't have access to ("I want reimbursement for the time spent in which I couldn't' progress and make ISK"). Therefore it's highly likely you are infact a LIAR! A person that tries to win a debate by lying is a pretty sad individual.

By not giving extra attributes or reducing training time the problem between new and old characters is made far worse as the gulf between new and old would be greater. The 40m SP that took 2 years to accumultate for a 2 year old character would now take 3 1/2 years for a new character. How about you look outside the box a little?

Characters that invest their time in a) Training Cybernetics V, b) Getting ISK for +5 implants & c) Creating the best skillplan for their remapping, will gain faster SP than those that don't. There would still be an advantage for those that put some effort in.


Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.02 10:32:00 - [454]
 

Edited by: Cash Render on 02/07/2010 10:40:06
Edited by: Cash Render on 02/07/2010 10:39:16
Edited by: Cash Render on 02/07/2010 10:36:29
Originally by: Sub Prime
Originally by: Cash Render
Actually, the "AND" should be there. It's a emphasis on the point that it wasn't just the skill points that were invested into the learning skills. As those trying to have them removed have so often pointed out, you don't progress while training them. You can't use new ships that enable you to make more money. Therefor, I want reimbursement for the time spent in which I couldn't' progress and make ISK or participate with a corporation because my learning skills were training instead of the "fun skills". The entire post is a mark that it's more than simply skill points that are used on training them and for any form of reimbursement to be truly fair, we need something to replace the actual lack of progression that supposedly has sparked you all to want the skills removed. After all, no future player would have that lack of progression. It's quite funny how much you all toss aside you're old arguements the moment it's used to on you.


The likelihood of you learning the learning and attribute skills before anything else is close to 0 as you'd need ISK to buy the books, which as a newbie 8 months ago you wouldn't have access to ("I want reimbursement for the time spent in which I couldn't' progress and make ISK"). Therefore it's highly likely you are infact a LIAR! A person that tries to win a debate by lying is a pretty sad individual.


To begin with, you should really make sure a person is lying before you start calling them a liar. I started playing because of a few good friends. I was handed the learning books and told to train them first by said friends. Hence I didn't need the ISK to buy them. Secondly, had they not been given to me by them, the Corp I joined on my second or third day gave me a complete set and told me to learn them right off the back as well. Thirdly, anyone with a credit card can make a quick 580 mil or more by selling a timecode. So calling someone a liar because YOU don't think they could possibly get a measely 30million ISK worth of skill books on day one in an attempt to discredit their point is pathetic and shows just how little you have to defend your reasoning.

Originally by: Sub Prime
By not giving extra attributes or reducing training time the problem between new and old characters is made far worse as the gulf between new and old would be greater. The 40m SP that took 2 years to accumultate for a 2 year old character would now take 3 1/2 years for a new character. How about you look outside the box a little?

Characters that invest their time in a) Training Cybernetics V, b) Getting ISK for +5 implants & c) Creating the best skillplan for their remapping, will gain faster SP than those that don't. There would still be an advantage for those that put some effort in.




So in other words, you all want them removed, but don't want everyone to suddenly suffer their loss. Again, a point fact of wanting something for free. Yeah, the new players will never catch up... which is already an stablished point of NOT MATTERING. Yes, it'll take longer, but that's the price a new player would pay for the rally of people trying to get them into training the fun skills longer. Everyone wants to say they're a giant time sink, yet they provide the thing that everyone wants. So instead of getting something for nothing, take the complete removal or come up with an idea that works in gaining those bonuses other ways.

EDIT 1: Removal of a sentence fragment.
EDIT 2: Spelling and puncuation.
EDIT 3: THe EDITs.

Jollygood69
Posted - 2010.07.02 11:17:00 - [455]
 

Guess CCP could start a vote in this matter. Then everyone playing EVE gets a chance to vote for what they believe in. Then majority will be the winner. On the other hand it could be difficult to arrange since it should be only 1 vote per person, regardless of how many accounts or characters he/she has.

salabeth
Caldari
Planetary Colony Construction
New Horizon Enterprise's
Posted - 2010.07.02 11:49:00 - [456]
 

Until CCP posts something in relation to this.. It is all total speculation.

I dont care either way. But for a new player it would make life easier to get going. Hang out in the help channel and you will see advice to train 5/4 all day long and after 3 years I dont have 5/4.

Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.07.02 12:04:00 - [457]
 

Edited by: Sub Prime on 02/07/2010 12:06:28
Originally by: Cash Render
Edited by: Cash Render on 02/07/2010 10:40:06
Edited by: Cash Render on 02/07/2010 10:39:16
Edited by: Cash Render on 02/07/2010 10:36:29
To begin with, you should really make sure a person is lying before you start calling them a liar. I started playing because of a few good friends. I was handed the learning books and told to train them first by said friends. Hence I didn't need the ISK to buy them. Secondly, had they not been given to me by them, the Corp I joined on my second or third day gave me a complete set and told me to learn them right off the back as well. Thirdly, anyone with a credit card can make a quick 580 mil or more by selling a timecode. So calling someone a liar because YOU don't think they could possibly get a measely 30million ISK worth of skill books on day one in an attempt to discredit their point is pathetic and shows just how little you have to defend your reasoning.




Yes, Cash Render, you are a liar. Lets have a look at previous quote from you in this thread:

"I am not one of the multi year players, in fact I'm merely 8 months into the game. And I didn't have anyone telling me to learn the learning skills first, me and the friend I started playing with kinda figured it out on our own from reading what they did."

Originally by: Cash Render

So in other words, you all want them removed, but don't want everyone to suddenly suffer their loss. Again, a point fact of wanting something for free. Yeah, the new players will never catch up... which is already an stablished point of NOT MATTERING. Yes, it'll take longer, but that's the price a new player would pay for the rally of people trying to get them into training the fun skills longer. Everyone wants to say they're a giant time sink, yet they provide the thing that everyone wants. So instead of getting something for nothing, take the complete removal or come up with an idea that works in gaining those bonuses other ways.

EDIT 1: Removal of a sentence fragment.
EDIT 2: Spelling and puncuation.
EDIT 3: THe EDITs.



You just don't get it do you? The learning skills are counter-productive to new players starting EVE. When they should be concentrating on gaining skills which will help then on their chosen path(s) within Eve, they're potentially training skills which don't provide any ability ingame. Why should new players (which a) cover the churn rate of old players leaving and b) hopefully increase playerbase) pay a 'price'? By losing out on the +10 skills EVERY players loses out, with the new players losing out the most and the ones with 100m + SP losing out the least. I, and I think many other low/mid level players (25m - 50m SP) striving to complete skillplans would be seriously peeved if the YOUR change made my skillplans 60% + longer.

I honestly can't believe how narrow minded you are!! Your sole arguement is that it's something for nothing. Sheesh, you plan to get rid of a free Ibis on docking in a Pod? That's something for nothing. You don't seem to care about what's good for the game in the long run. Oh, and once again, you're a proven LIAR!

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.02 12:23:00 - [458]
 

Edited by: Cash Render on 02/07/2010 12:25:21
You're going to try and argue the point of "good for the game"? Seriously? Ok than:

1) This game has been around for 7 years, considering that it has continued to expand in both player base and free provided content, I'd say that you're point isn't proven.

2) Considering that subscriptions are in the hundreds of thousands, I'd say not that ENOUGH people were "deterred" by the learning skills for CCP to care.

3) Someone mentioned that CCP stated that 50,000 players would meet there break even point. I don't believe they posted a link to support it so it coul simply be speculation, however if it is true, than I'd say what any of us want at the moment doesn't mean squat to CCP in the end because they've met and exceeded their costs.

So yes, you're arguement that it's for the good of the game is quite unfounded and worthless. EVE Online has done with the learning skills in place and will continue to do fine with them in place. Until you can show some valid statistical information to support that the game is suffering and going to meet it's end because of the learnign skills, yiou have absolutely no arguement for "the good of the game."

As for me "being a liar" I never stated me and siad friend started on the same footing. He did buy the skill boks, and did tell me to train up the skills. Again, don't call someone a liar unless you can prove it. As pointed out before, all one needs to have the resources on day one is have a credit card.

And I'm sure you'd be ****ed off if you're training went slower... but than again, you are saying that the skills shouldn't be in the game when they're the only reason you're training at that speed. At as already shown, the "takign them out for the good of the game" argument is invalid. Mind you, keeping that bonus at this point probably is since a whole lot of people would be ready to unsub at losing that speed rate.

EDIT: ADDITION: On the subject of the free rookie ships when you die, I'd gladly give them up. I don't think I've ever actually had to use one of them that was provided other than the one I started in. Well, maybe from flying from point A to point B when I don't want to risk an actual ship. But even than, I have a BP for them and make them when I need them for that purpose.

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.02 13:12:00 - [459]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 02/07/2010 13:17:13
Originally by: Cash Render
blah blah

Still you haven't explained why all the other 100,00 changes are good for the game and removing the learning skills aren't.

You may personally loved training them but I'm sure no-one will miss them. I even dare to say that the change it makes is very small and doesn't affect game mechanics at all. It mainly affects new characters. And once they're gone I don't think anyone will want to have them back.

And unless you haven't read any post in this thread you'd know that what is proposed is granting the +10 attributes to all players and giving the SP back to those who already trained them so we all get a free 2 months worth of SP, new and old players alike. Hence the link with the 100k SP experiment that CCP did.

Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.07.02 13:44:00 - [460]
 

Edited by: Sub Prime on 02/07/2010 13:46:55
Originally by: Cash Render
Blah Blah


CCP have stated that they want to get rid of the learning skills.

You don't own a business do you? I do, and I don't just sit in my chair with my feet up because I make a profit, I look to make a) more profit and b) my product base better and more expansive.

You, on the other hand think that CCP should just rest on its laurels and not strive to make a good game better or getting players at a more accelerated rate than previously.

CCP is a multi million $ business so for you to assume they have the same business acumen (nada) as you is both rather pathetic and ignorant.

Get to grips with the fact that Eve is not just about YOU. Do you think that just because YOU had skill books bought for you (I still think you're a liar) that it's the case for every new player? Just because YOU had an easy ride, doesn't mean other new players do. Just because YOU started playing with friends doesn't mean others do. Honestly, burst that bubble you sit in and be objective.

So, in essence, do you think that CCP will drop learning skills (as they want to do - one reason being they inhibit new player enjoyment and progression) and make all players learn slowe r(by not giving them attributes) which would again inhibit new players from continuing to subscribe. CCP will choose their method by a) selecting the option that will be agreeable to the majority of the playerbase, and b) selecting a method that will encourage new player retention. They won't choose use your method which would cause uproar amongst the majority of the player base and enhance the churn rate of both existing and new players.





Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:59:00 - [461]
 

Originally by: Sub Prime

A whole lot of pretentious yada yada about your business acumen and your apparent inside knowledge of CCP's goals and motives.



Let's just say for the sake of argument that I own a business too ( because I do actually ). Guess what that adds to this discussion. Nothing.

You did say a couple of good things. You just need to take your own advice.

"Get to grips with the fact that Eve is not just about YOU."
"Honestly, burst that bubble you sit in and be objective."

You presume that removing the learning skills makes Eve a better game. That is such an utterly subjective claim. I've heard every justification for this and I'm still not on board.

Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.07.02 17:27:00 - [462]
 

Originally by: Pantload

Let's just say for the sake of argument that I own a business too ( because I do actually ). Guess what that adds to this discussion. Nothing.

You did say a couple of good things. You just need to take your own advice.

"Get to grips with the fact that Eve is not just about YOU."
"Honestly, burst that bubble you sit in and be objective."

You presume that removing the learning skills makes Eve a better game. That is such an utterly subjective claim. I've heard every justification for this and I'm still not on board.


1) It wasn't prenentious yada yada, it was simple down to earth business. You must be quite ignorant (as a business owner) if you don't realise that. Also, if you don't think economics play a part in CCP decisions, you're a bigger fool that the poster I replied to.
2) The only reason you're not on board is because you're obstinate.

Magnus Orin
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.02 18:10:00 - [463]
 

If they remove learning skills, they need to remove attributes and everything associated with them.

This would remove some flavour from the game.

No one forces you to train all your learning skills at once as a new player. I for one usually set them to train over night, and held them on pause while I trained the "fun stuff" throughout the days that I played during the first months of my Eve career.


Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.07.02 18:26:00 - [464]
 

Originally by: Magnus Orin
If they remove learning skills, they need to remove attributes and everything associated with them.

This would remove some flavour from the game.

No one forces you to train all your learning skills at once as a new player. I for one usually set them to train over night, and held them on pause while I trained the "fun stuff" throughout the days that I played during the first months of my Eve career.




Why remove attributes? People can still get accelerated learning with Cybernetics (implants) & remaps/skill planning. Removing attributes will mean everyone roaming around with crystal etc sets!

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.02 18:45:00 - [465]
 

Originally by: Sub Prime
Originally by: Pantload

Let's just say for the sake of argument that I own a business too ( because I do actually ). Guess what that adds to this discussion. Nothing.

You did say a couple of good things. You just need to take your own advice.

"Get to grips with the fact that Eve is not just about YOU."
"Honestly, burst that bubble you sit in and be objective."

You presume that removing the learning skills makes Eve a better game. That is such an utterly subjective claim. I've heard every justification for this and I'm still not on board.


1) It wasn't prenentious yada yada, it was simple down to earth business. You must be quite ignorant (as a business owner) if you don't realise that. Also, if you don't think economics play a part in CCP decisions, you're a bigger fool that the poster I replied to.
2) The only reason you're not on board is because you're obstinate.


It was PRECISELY a bunch of pretentious bullcrap. Your counter argument is...if I don't agree with you I must be ignorant. Very clever. I definitely don't agree with you and your assumption that I must be ignorant because of that is, in fact, ignorant.

I never said I didn't think that CCP bases its decisions partly on economics. You said I said that. You gotta try to stick to reality here, chief.

Perhaps I am obstinate, but it's certainly not the only reason I'm not on board with this. Your thinking is entirely too narrow, too one-dimensional. This proposal to remove the learning skills and simply give everyone a bonus as though they had trained them to max is...well...charity. It's welfare. I'm not in favor turning New Eden into a welfare state and that's precisely where all this is headed. I read a proposal recently to remove attribute implants and just give everyone the +5! Where does this stop? I contend that it doesn't. If we give in on this, you guys will just move on to the next thing to ***** about.

Scyyy
Posted - 2010.07.02 21:51:00 - [466]
 

Edited by: Scyyy on 02/07/2010 21:52:57
This just in, you don't need to train every learning skill immediately. The initial bonus is so small that it doesn't harm new players in anyway to put some skills in between learning the learning skills. They make perfect sense to have them in place, You can put your time towards the ability to train future skills faster(and note you can put skills inbetween learning these and barely lose any time) or have instant(albeit slightly slower) gratification. This type of complaining is exactly what ruined WoW and turned it into the carebear state its in now, with blizz changing everything on the whim whiny players. And I'm glad CCP has stuck to their guns because where does it stop when they start changing things?

Paulus Reveer
Posted - 2010.07.03 00:06:00 - [467]
 

Terrific discussion of basic system issues!!

May I acknowledge the CCP did an excellent job with the new starter packages -- 20 basic skills and good story line ...

Also -- just a thought -- check out the "skill bank" idea thread as another notion for this are too ....

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.04 10:03:00 - [468]
 

Originally by: salabeth
Until CCP posts something in relation to this.. It is all total speculation.

I dont care either way. But for a new player it would make life easier to get going. Hang out in the help channel and you will see advice to train 5/4 all day long and after 3 years I dont have 5/4.

CCP already said that they're planning to remove learning skills.

Cash Render
Posted - 2010.07.04 10:07:00 - [469]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: salabeth
Until CCP posts something in relation to this.. It is all total speculation.

I dont care either way. But for a new player it would make life easier to get going. Hang out in the help channel and you will see advice to train 5/4 all day long and after 3 years I dont have 5/4.

CCP already said that they're planning to remove learning skills.


Please provide evidence of this. As stated repeatedly, the fanfest video everyoen seems to say proves this simply states that CCP doesn't like the current state fo the learning skills, but DOES NOT want to remove them because of anger this would cause. Unless you ahve something concrete to support your claim to them saying they will, it's an empty daydream that so many hope for.

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.04 11:14:00 - [470]
 

Originally by: Cash Render
Please provide evidence of this. As stated repeatedly, the fanfest video everyoen seems to say proves this simply states that CCP doesn't like the current state fo the learning skills, but DOES NOT want to remove them because of anger this would cause. Unless you ahve something concrete to support your claim to them saying they will, it's an empty daydream that so many hope for.

If CCP says "I mean honestly one way is just taking them out of the game and reimbursing players their skillpoints and money." as a possible solution, I wonder what the problem is other than a way to remove the learning skills from the game?

They may not actually remove them from the game but grant everyone 5/5 - but thatīs just a theoretical difference. Giving them for tutorials was aonther (non-viable) option so apparently they just want to get rid of them in such a way that new players don't have to go through months to train them. Which all effectively comes down to the same: keeping the learning skill bonuses but minimizing the time and effort needed to get them maxed out.

Perhaps my reading comprehension may be severely lacking but I can't make anything else from it?!

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.04 11:58:00 - [471]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Cash Render
Please provide evidence of this. As stated repeatedly, the fanfest video everyoen seems to say proves this simply states that CCP doesn't like the current state fo the learning skills, but DOES NOT want to remove them because of anger this would cause. Unless you ahve something concrete to support your claim to them saying they will, it's an empty daydream that so many hope for.

If CCP says "I mean honestly one way is just taking them out of the game and reimbursing players their skillpoints and money." as a possible solution, I wonder what the problem is other than a way to remove the learning skills from the game?

They may not actually remove them from the game but grant everyone 5/5 - but thatīs just a theoretical difference. Giving them for tutorials was aonther (non-viable) option so apparently they just want to get rid of them in such a way that new players don't have to go through months to train them. Which all effectively comes down to the same: keeping the learning skill bonuses but minimizing the time and effort needed to get them maxed out.

Perhaps my reading comprehension may be severely lacking but I can't make anything else from it?!


They also said they need to find the solution which angers the least amount of people. Meaning, they don't really have any solution to the problem yet, it may end up just giving new chars 4/3 in the learning skills on creation.

That statement can translate into alot of things, but you have to put it into the kontext of the actual discussion during the fanfest, just taking quotes out of their context won't work, well except when it comes to sensation media.

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.04 12:50:00 - [472]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 04/07/2010 12:53:01
Originally by: Reldor Silverheart
That statement can translate into alot of things, but you have to put it into the kontext of the actual discussion during the fanfest, just taking quotes out of their context won't work, well except when it comes to sensation media.

Well from the whole of the conversation (and also related interviews, posts from CCP people) it's very clear that they don't like the fact that new players have to go through months of learning skill training.

I'm not saying they're going to act upon it anytime soon - or at all (in fact the 1st CCP post about it I saw was from 2006) - but I think it's definitely proven that CCP doesn't like their learning skills and want to find a way to get rid of the way it currently works. Granting and reimbursing was one of the suggestions but it was very clear that restrospect they'd rather had they hadn't introducted them all in.
If you deny that you're just picky.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.04 15:28:00 - [473]
 

Originally by: Cash Render
EVE Online has done with the learning skills in place and will continue to do fine with them in place.


No. Too much has changed in Eve for the "if it worked in the past, it will work in the future" argument.

The learning skills have "changed." The skill themselves are unchanged, but the learning skill *process* has changed, and changed in a bad way.

In the old days, it didn't really matter when you trained the learning skills because you had fixed attributes and no bonus training speed. If you were training Frigates V, then you could skill up the Perception and Will power attributes first. Then when you needed to work on your fitting skills, you could skill up your Int and Mem attributes. Long story short, in the old days, you could train the learning attributes in small doses as you needed them.

Unfortunately, the accelerated training bonus and two free remaps make it a really good idea to spend a character's first weeks/months of life training the learning skills as high as possible. New characters no longer feel that they have the choice to train them on an ad-hoc basis.


The learning skills aren't the problem. The "it's a really good idea for newbies to train learning skills for the first month" strategy that's the problem. A game shouldn't require/force/highly_encourage new characters to focus on the most boring aspect of the game for the first month+ of playtime.


Shamus Brull
Posted - 2010.07.04 16:32:00 - [474]
 

I thought I would wiegh in on this topic as a new (three days) player. First of all the game is great but it's sort of a 'slow-burn', it didn't exactly wow me (pun inintended) right out of the gate but as I get more of a sense of the scope of the game and the possibilities for near seamless role-play I am just more impressed all the time.

I think that long-term play is an inherent element of the game and as such I think it's only likely to appeal to more mature players who enjoy taking a long range view of things (I also thinks that this makes the game well positioned as the gaming populatin ages). So ultimately I don't mind the learning skills, it allows me a small leg up on less patient or informed players who don't train them and they are still optional because the game rewards creative play as much as it does (perhaps even more than) min-max strategies.

(I do think it odd though that this thread has recieved NO input from CCP. It seems to be an issue of considerable concern and the development team, I think, would do well to at least chime in to say that they are listening to the discussion)

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.04 18:35:00 - [475]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 04/07/2010 12:53:01
Originally by: Reldor Silverheart
That statement can translate into alot of things, but you have to put it into the kontext of the actual discussion during the fanfest, just taking quotes out of their context won't work, well except when it comes to sensation media.

Well from the whole of the conversation (and also related interviews, posts from CCP people) it's very clear that they don't like the fact that new players have to go through months of learning skill training.

I'm not saying they're going to act upon it anytime soon - or at all (in fact the 1st CCP post about it I saw was from 2006) - but I think it's definitely proven that CCP doesn't like their learning skills and want to find a way to get rid of the way it currently works. Granting and reimbursing was one of the suggestions but it was very clear that restrospect they'd rather had they hadn't introducted them all in.
If you deny that you're just picky.


I know was much as they regret putting them in, but now that they are in and been for over 4 years is a fact to be considered. Just removing them and reiumbursing the players will still make alot of people happy. While the main argument is that it's a tedium for new players to train them. Fact is that you aren't forced to train the full spectrum of skills at first.

But to offset the basic tedium to train them a solution that would make quite alot of people happy, in comparison to removing them would be giving all new chars 4/3 learning upon creation. While it may not be ideal it would remove the tedium that those against learning skills say it is.

Also, while i also understand that CCP regret putting them in, like i said before it's not as easy to remove something that has 4 years behind it. There will be alot of pro learning skill people that will get annoyed. You have to consider CCP's stance here, yes they can reimburse those who trained them, but is it the ideal solution. This is a quote from fanfest "we have to find the solution which angers the least amount of people", while i may have gotten the wording wrong it still has the same meaning.

In this matter CCP may even opt to leave them in if it has the scenario of being the most efficent and making the least amount of people upset. Then again they can't make everyone happy.

I support learning skills myself, but i don't believe taking them to 4/4 or 5/4 asap is the correct approach, i believe in getting combat or mining or other skills up first, then progressively training up the learning skills you find relevant for your choice of career. On this char i am opting to get all to 5/5 tho, but this char is 4 months old and got 4/4 allready. But i have plenty of combat skills that will remove the tedium of the learning skills alltogether, while boring i can still shoot stuf.

So you have to consider, while CCP want them removed, like you have said, it may not be the optimal solution to remove them.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.07.04 18:54:00 - [476]
 

Edited by: Jasdemi on 04/07/2010 18:54:43
Removal of learnings WILL bring more new players. I lost 6 of 7 of my buddy invites, because they didn't want to invest over 2 months into learnings before they can actually start training skills to play the game. I even offered them 200m each, but only 1 decided to subscribe. :(

Since then I no longer invited people to try out the game.

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.04 19:31:00 - [477]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Edited by: Jasdemi on 04/07/2010 18:54:43
Removal of learnings WILL bring more new players. I lost 6 of 7 of my buddy invites, because they didn't want to invest over 2 months into learnings before they can actually start training skills to play the game. I even offered them 200m each, but only 1 decided to subscribe. :(

Since then I no longer invited people to try out the game.


Then why tell them to spend their first two months on those skills sheesh? or whoever did it. As a friend you could have sugegsted to train combat or mining skills instead and then do learning skilsl when they find out what they want to do.

It's that simple.

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.07.04 20:48:00 - [478]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
Edited by: Jasdemi on 04/07/2010 18:54:43
Removal of learnings WILL bring more new players. I lost 6 of 7 of my buddy invites, because they didn't want to invest over 2 months into learnings before they can actually start training skills to play the game. I even offered them 200m each, but only 1 decided to subscribe. :(

Since then I no longer invited people to try out the game.


I hear these stories like this and I think of the new players that I used to train a while back and they all trained learning skills to at least a certain degree and they all carried on playing. The players I helped were very happy training the learning skills. You must understand this is my experience and I understand that other players may well have had a different experience.

Removing learning skills would anger too many people. Giving everyone learning skills would alleviate some of the possible tension that players are describing here. Learning 5/5 would be plain stupid CCP would never agree to that. Learning to 4/3 possibly since all skills would be in the sheet and it would be your choice to polish them off or not. To those who already trained the skills then the sp could be rewarded in lieu of the time spent.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.04 21:24:00 - [479]
 

Originally by: ViolenTUK
Removing learning skills would anger too many people.



Yes, but would it actually *hurt* anybody? And if the angry people had the persistence to train the learning skills to a high level, do you really think they'll quit if everyone suddenly gets the learning skills for free?

IMHO, everyone is going to get the learning skills for free, unless the "keep learning skills as is" faction proposes an alternative solution that reduces the "need" for newbies to train the learning skills for the first month+ of life.

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.04 21:46:00 - [480]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Removing learning skills would anger too many people.



Yes, but would it actually *hurt* anybody? And if the angry people had the persistence to train the learning skills to a high level, do you really think they'll quit if everyone suddenly gets the learning skills for free?

IMHO, everyone is going to get the learning skills for free, unless the "keep learning skills as is" faction proposes an alternative solution that reduces the "need" for newbies to train the learning skills for the first month+ of life.



How many times does it takes to say this, but i'll say it again. A new char doesn't have to spend it's first months to train the learning skills. The first months of a player should be about getting a feel for the game and see if it is something they like or not. Eve is a long term game not short term. Learning skills are a long term investment, preferably something you train after you at least have basic career skills and specalize the learning skills around that career, NOT something you do for the first months of your playtime.

So in order
1. Train some career skills like mining, combat , trade, research, you name it so you can get a feel of the game and enjoy it.
2. If you like the game and feel your skills are good enough, go ahead and get some basic learning skills, like 4/3 or something, that will give you a small boost while it pays of short term.
3. Train more skills, if you feel you want to train learning skills more do that, but don't do it all at once unless you're very patient, do it over a period of time instead, that also pays of better and won't make you as bored.
4.????
5. Profit

TL;DR
Get a feel of the game before you even train learning skills


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