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Grayclay
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.06.26 17:40:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: ViolenTUK
Originally by: Grayclay
CCP collects data when people cancel their subscriptions. They ask why you quit.


This is well known. This may well be the reason learning skills are still in the game after 8 years. The issue of learning skills probably isnít raised to often.

Originally by: Grayclay

You train a handful of new players in a game with 300,000+ players,


Good point. 30 or so players who have had early stage tuition by me isnít a great deal. There have been many more players in game who have not received tuition from me who have never noted any complaints. I guess I must be lucky that no-one has ever complained about it...

Originally by: Grayclay
none of whom quit the game because of the learning skills you told them they HAD to train.



To be precise I never told them they had to train them. I told them how it would help them and then let them decide.

Originally by: Grayclay

Obviously, your wisdom and omniscience > CCP's statistics.


What Statistics would they be? Do they exist? Or are they the statistics that have kept learning skills in the game for almost 8 years?



Quite clearly, I'm referring to the Statistics CCP keeps of the reasons why people leave the game. I don't know what they say, I'm not even implying as to one meaning or another. I just want to make sure that we are differentiating between the anecdotal evidence and statistical data in how we have this discussion.

Sagnius
Amarr
Caldari Scouting and Intel Group
Posted - 2010.06.28 03:11:00 - [392]
 

CCP wants a warm fuzzy high sec where people are safe. CCP wants to boast numbers like WoW but to do so they have to slowly boil out the complexity of the game to make it more appealing to the 12 year olds. I picked the age 12 since the majority of WoW users are kids. 12 isn't a relative number from any data ive read but the mindset of most are still 12.

StarWars Galaxies was a game, somewhat similar to eve: somewhat. don't flame they are not even close but the basic mechanics are similar. SWG keep changing it to make it easier and easier for new players to get the classes they wanted. Jedi's were very rare (as they should be) until the whining majority (kids) convinced SOE (sony online entertainment) to dumb it down again.

There should be 4 years old players tougher to take down than a 6 month old one. if you run into a battle harden solider and you are day 2 in the service the odds are against your survive in real life.

I loved being a noob and in a group where others were long time vets. you learn, you group you form bonds.

Originally by: Guttripper
I have listened and read over the years various aspects to the game CCP would like to change, expand, or remove. While not knocking them, the track record is not the greatest in altering these aspects. Many past additions to the game came up short and were not fleshed out later. Other older aspects to the game have been slowly phased out, perhaps not to offend certain players. The niche of this game, being the cold, dark, unforgiving universe has been heavily changed into a friendly place, in my opinion. Whereas years ago CCP were quite content to have around 15,000 players during prime time (and had even fewer years before I first arrived), today they seem to want greater and greater numbers. This is understandable to gain higher revenues. But to appease the masses, CCP seems to be lowering the lowest common denominator. Anything and everything that was harsh and rough is being changed into smooth and soft. To an older "veteran" like me, the game is being alienated away from what I originally loved about it.

So yes, I know CCP wants to do something with the Learning skill tree. But to me, that is one lingering obstacle that separates the die hard, hardcore player from the "Eve is the (current) cool thing!" instant gratification player. CCP _will_ eventually do something with those skills to appease their newest players. And this slow cascade will continue until another game comes out that is similar to the old version of Eve and many of the old veterans depart, looking to indirectly "work" for something instead of having it all handed to them. Then the recently appeased crowd will vacate, since "Eve is not cool."

I wonder what CCP would do then...?

Hopefully I am wrong and CCP does nothing with the Learning skill tree. I'm still fond of the universe, even though it is a bit ~friendlier~.

/me goes off to watch the Revelations video.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.06.28 08:35:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: Sagnius
CCP wants a warm fuzzy high sec where people are safe. CCP wants to boast numbers like WoW but to do so they have to slowly boil out the complexity of the game to make it more appealing to the 12 year olds. I picked the age 12 since the majority of WoW users are kids. 12 isn't a relative number from any data ive read but the mindset of most are still 12.


The average WoW player is 28 actually, but lets not bring facts into this. I doubt that CCP wants WoW subscriber numbers in any case since I don't think Tranquility could fit that many people on it. They do want enough subscribers to actually turn a profit however, which they've now achieved, largely I suspect due to "warm fuzzy high sec".

Originally by: Sagnius


There should be 4 years old players tougher to take down than a 6 month old one. if you run into a battle harden solider and you are day 2 in the service the odds are against your survive in real life.

I loved being a noob and in a group where others were long time vets. you learn, you group you form bonds.




That's all well and good, but what does it have to do with learning skills? The skill gap will still be there after all, and new players will never be able to catch up as such. Which is fine. But apparently thats not enough for you, and you'd prefer they spend days, weeks or months of their initial playtime just so they can not fall further behind. Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying here?

Orion GUardian
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.28 09:58:00 - [394]
 

Edited by: Orion GUardian on 28/06/2010 09:59:04
tl:dr:

Remove Learning Skills - Check
Refund the SPs to anyone who trained them - Check
Boost Skill training as if everyone had Learning skills 5 - Check

if not all 3 of them are met NOTHING will be better. If They wont give +10/*1.1 to everyone I'd be ****ed that my learning suddenly HALVES in speed....if I didn't get reimbursed I'd be ****ed on wasting weeks and millions of SP. If Learning skill stay around: Every new player would nearly be forced to train them, wasting precious time he could spend on advancing what he wants.

About Skill-Gap: Its there it will still be there and thats no bad thing. With a few million SPs less to train (learning skills) Young players can specialize in their field of choice faster. The only thing my 60m SP give me over a 5m Player is: Diversity (and perhaps some of the skill intensive T2 Ships) and perhaps 5% here and there due to a skill being 5 instead of 4.

The Skill gap is NOT hampering newer players to compete with older players. It is gear, assets, friends etc which takes time to aquire.


Ninjaedit: CCP has said that "Learning Skills" were a big mistake in the first place. With the SP-pool tool thingy they would have the chance to remedy it. If its is really possible and if they will do it is an ENTIRELY different matter

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.28 11:15:00 - [395]
 

Originally by: Takseen
The average WoW player is 28 actually, but lets not bring facts into this.


That would be physically; now how about mentally? Twisted Evil


Originally by: Takseen
They do want enough subscribers to actually turn a profit however, which they've now achieved, largely I suspect due to "warm fuzzy high sec".


A while back, CCP stated that 50,000 subscribers would be their break even point. As for the "warm fuzzy high sec" aspect to the game - enough whining has brought that into the game. Four years ago, ships were much, much weaker and there were quite a few more high sec wars running. But CCP changed the war declaration costs since Privateers were having a field day blasting newbies to bits.


Originally by: Takseen
That's all well and good, but what does it have to do with learning skills? The skill gap will still be there after all, and new players will never be able to catch up as such. Which is fine. But apparently thats not enough for you, and you'd prefer they spend days, weeks or months of their initial playtime just so they can not fall further behind. Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying here?


Again the complaint about the actual number of skill points - the total number represents how diversified a player can be in the game and nothing really more. The skills levels are maxed out at five per skill - nobody can go beyond that level. Yet people keep thriving that an older player is so far ahead of a new player that the new player should not even try unless they are given massive amounts of boost to "catch up".

As for the Learning skills - it is like the old saying, "You spend money to make money." Thus if you spend time now on those skills, you make time later with quicker skill gains. But if the average account life in this game is seven to eight months and a player feels they are not going to be here in x number of years, then it is pointless to spend some time training the Learning skills. But if a player enjoys the slower pace of the game with its moments of fast and furious adrenaline, then training the Learning skills over the months would be beneficial. Yet too many new players watch the videos and get enamored over the glamor and glitz of big ships blasting each other to bits and want to do that ~now~. So they take their fresh account, plug the information into EveMon and see how long it takes while the same program tells them that training these Learning skills will reduce that time. But the complaints ring out that training the Learning skills offer no immediate benefit once trained!!! So since there is no immediate benefit, CCP should drop them like yesterday's trash and just give everyone the eventual benefit because that burning desire to blast battleships is overheating their minds.

-----

While I do not know how long it would take today, when I first started, training the Learning skills to maximum output would eventually reward itself after 3.5 to 4.0 years of training skills. That is, the time spent training those skills and its eventual reward < just initially training other skills. So my training time of five to six months for this character eventually paid off now. Today, training skills is for gravy, which at my stage is more "Hmmm, what to train to keep this going?" since short of desiring to move onto the biggest ships in game, pushes a pilot into cross-training into other ships just to keep the ticks going.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.06.28 12:57:00 - [396]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 28/06/2010 12:57:59
<in response to Guttripper's post>

Sure there's plenty of immature players on Wow. The main things keeping them away from Eve are actually needing to read things to get stuff done in Eve, and the slow pace of the skill training and of most of the in-game activities. That gets rid of the functionally illiterate and the impatient types. And they'll still stay away no matter what's done with learning skills.

I think you misunderstand me about the skill gap between new and old players. I'm totally fine with it, my point is that some veterans like it there and removing learning skills will not reduce it, just stop it increasing further.

The main problem with learning skills is they're not "fun". When I trained my cap skills, I was rewarded by being able to perma-run modules where I couldn't before. When I trained Engineering, I was rewarded by being able to fit an extra gun on my Catalyst. Being more awesome at doing stuff in-game, or getting to fly a new ship, or fit a new weapon or module, is "fun", having your skills train at a slightly less glacial pace is good, but I wouldn't call it fun.

Every other skill represents a choice about your character. Even for the so called essential capacitor, electronics and engineering skills I'm sure there's some players that can do without them, or atleast put off training them without any penalty. They're also the prerequisites to some *very* cool skills like Thermodynamics and Cloaking. Learning skills are the prerequisites for...more learning skills. Woop.

Jollygood69
Posted - 2010.06.28 13:22:00 - [397]
 

Just remove the Learning skills.
Make sure that all training time takes as long as if the players had lvl 5 in all learning skills.
Training takes TO LONG ANYWAY so this would be a minimum thing to do.

Give the players that have trained them a "skill account" with equal the skilltime spent for implement on other skills. So for example lets say a player has trained "Logic" to lvl 5 and spent a total time of 12 days worth of training on that. Then give 12 days of trainingtime so the player can directly "insert" to any other skill/skills of choice...directly cutting of 12 days.

Or just remove them, burst the training time for everyone and lets all start from a fresh beginning.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.28 15:01:00 - [398]
 

Re: Takseen

My brother showed me a short YouTube video of an older teenager having a temper tantrum after his parents canceled his Warcraft account, thus me sarcastically asking about the mental age. Razz

But I agree with your other points about those players.

I feel that instead of CCP outright removing the Learning skills, they could do what some of the supporters in this thread have offered as suggestions. Pantload suggested that players start with the first tier set at four and the third tier set at three. Or Tripoli's suggestion of granting a secondary bonus per level. Or extend the epic arch missions with side missions that grant a bonus as a reward...

Agent: "Rich Amarrian playboy wants to surprise his paparazzi chased Minmatarian mistress with this high priced gift for her birthday. Since he is currently on a space cruise, he will not be back until twelve hours from now. So I can give you this package now, but you must wait twelve hours (or later) to deliver it."

Reward: Willpower +1

Or any combination of the above suggestions. So yes, the attribute will arrive over time, but the pilot can train any other skills during this period and get a stat boost from "spending" time on a mission. Almost as if a pilot is training two skills simultaneously!

My biggest complaint for those wanting them removed is the automatic gain of ten attribute points without ever training for them. But any of the supportive suggestions above I could accept.

Turdilious
Posted - 2010.06.28 15:54:00 - [399]
 

I am completely against the removal of learning skills. I cant see CCP ever removing them since there are quite clearly so many peeps for them. If they were so unpopular why dont they just be given to peeps insead of removing them as this would acomplish the same thing.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.28 17:46:00 - [400]
 

Originally by: Guttripper
Pantload suggested that players start with the first tier set at four and the third tier set at three.


Actually that was my idea and I put it up in the Features and Ideas. Not sure it will make a difference now since CCP appears to already have a plan in place concerning the learning skills, but feel free to /sign it.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.28 18:28:00 - [401]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Guttripper
Pantload suggested that players start with the first tier set at four and the third tier set at three.


Actually that was my idea and I put it up in the Features and Ideas. Not sure it will make a difference now since CCP appears to already have a plan in place concerning the learning skills, but feel free to /sign it.



He's right. It was his idea. Credit is given for this at the bottom of the post where I first mention the idea.

Stoicfaux: What plan is it that you think CCP already has for this?

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.28 18:30:00 - [402]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Actually that was my idea and I put it up in the Features and Ideas. Not sure it will make a difference now since CCP appears to already have a plan in place concerning the learning skills, but feel free to /sign it.


Ahhh, my bad... always been bad with names and who said what.

What plan does CCP have in place? The one day bonus of under 100,000 skill points per pilot was not even mentioned in the patch notes. So I doubt they'll suddenly do away with the Learning skills without making a notice about it (and no, a fanfest video with them talking about not liking it does not translate into removal).

Cool

Frank d'Fairy
Posted - 2010.06.28 19:42:00 - [403]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Guttripper
Pantload suggested that players start with the first tier set at four and the third tier set at three.


Actually that was my idea and I put it up in the Features and Ideas. Not sure it will make a difference now since CCP appears to already have a plan in place concerning the learning skills, but feel free to /sign it.


Exellent proposal.

Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
Posted - 2010.06.28 20:32:00 - [404]
 

14 pages and no CCP input?

Impressive.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.29 00:50:00 - [405]
 

Originally by: Guttripper

What plan does CCP have in place? The one day bonus of under 100,000 skill points per pilot was not even mentioned in the patch notes. So I doubt they'll suddenly do away with the Learning skills without making a notice about it (and no, a fanfest video with them talking about not liking it does not translate into removal).
Cool


The theory/speculation is that CCP wouldn't build a skill reimbursement tool unless they planned to do allow skill reimbursements, such as maybe for reimbursing everyone who trained the learning skills after CCP removes the learning skills. (The fanfest video mentioned they were afraid to just remove them without some kind of reimbursement for the folks who trained the skills.)

Also, there has apparently been an active proposal in front of CSM to remove the learning skills: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1324024 Note to self, start reading the assembly hall forum board.



Conmen
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2010.06.29 15:08:00 - [406]
 

Edited by: Conmen on 29/06/2010 15:20:22
Originally by: foksieloy
People who think they HAVE to train learning, should probably hit themselves repeatedly on the head with a frying pan.

Train it when you feel like it. If you feel like it.

You loose 2 weeks of training because your learning was not done optimally? OH DEAR LORD NOES!
You will loose much more the first time you clone jump to an empty clone, get podded out of your +5 implants, or just forget to update your clone and then die. Did the world just end? Did you not have fun till then? What about after then?

If your fun is limited by how much skillpoints you have, i suggest you move to another game. Try Hello Kitty online or something. EvE is not for you.

Hell i have a friend who never trained any learning AT ALL. Sure most of my other friends who started playing a year later now have 10 mil skillpoints more than him.
Yet he is the one that has a respected alliance, tons of friends, is an established FC, and can mop the floor with you in PvP any time. They on the other hand are not known at all.

So, lack of skillpoints and learning stops you from having fun? The problem is in your head.
Go see a psychiatrist.


Are you a rehtard?

Conmen
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2010.06.29 15:20:00 - [407]
 

Edited by: Conmen on 29/06/2010 15:39:56
All the fail vets of 2004-2006 are making the 03 rofl lol, you guys think you had it rough and want it to be rough for new players coming in so stupid. It is a game and anything that keeps the core values of eve intact and makes the game more accessible and friendly to newer players should be supported. All the RAGING rehtardz that want to keep the learning skills should try the 03 version of eve and get back to me with your tech two tissue.

EvE did make a mistake probally one of the dumbest things they ever did was make an internet spaceship game not about flying spaceships but about learning xyz learning skill see you need this to train fast yah but for what... TO TRAIN FASTER... um so perception makes me um... train faster... YAH NOOBZ TRAIN IT.

You failboat players that think you had it rough and want to whine about changes that make it easier for new players need to gtfo of my Eve. While they are at it lets remove all high sec mission running and get rid of concord and just have the faction police. WHINE WHINE get over it If CCP takes this bold move and gets rid of the learning skills would probably be one of the best decision they have ever made. In Eve the real "vets" don't care about the changes we just roll with the punches and yes I have maxed learning skills and could care less if I even get the SP I threw in them back or the ISK. I hope they get rid of all of them except the learning skill so if you want to "RP" going to school have a field day, also because it would be the hardest one to translate since it is percentage based and not a fix attribute point.

So let me know which of you are going to need tech two tissue WHEN they make this change ohh CANZ I HAZ YOU STUFF. So all you new players hoping for this you got at least one "non bitter vet" on your side and I hope it happens so you can get a jump start on eve... see you in 0.0 Laughing

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.29 15:29:00 - [408]
 

Originally by: Conmen
So all you new players hoping for this you got at least one "non bitter vet" on your side and ...


I read that last bit of your post and almost fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard. Are you the "non bitter vet"? LMFAO

Consider training your language skill to at least a 4. Oh wait. That skill wouldn't do anything ( except make it easier for people to understand your rantings ). Of course if you do go ahead and train that, you can come back later and gripe and get it removed from the game. Seems to be all the rage these days.

As you were,
PL

Conmen
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2010.06.29 15:35:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Conmen
So all you new players hoping for this you got at least one "non bitter vet" on your side and ...


I read that last bit of your post and almost fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard. Are you the "non bitter vet"? LMFAO

Consider training your language skill to at least a 4. Oh wait. That skill wouldn't do anything ( except make it easier for people to understand your rantings ). Of course if you do go ahead and train that, you can come back later and gripe and get it removed from the game. Seems to be all the rage these days.

As you were,
PL


You do know I am commander of all the ROFLCOPTERS correct? and sorry english is not my first language.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.29 16:35:00 - [410]
 

Originally by: Conmen
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Conmen
So all you new players hoping for this you got at least one "non bitter vet" on your side and ...


I read that last bit of your post and almost fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard. Are you the "non bitter vet"? LMFAO

Consider training your language skill to at least a 4. Oh wait. That skill wouldn't do anything ( except make it easier for people to understand your rantings ). Of course if you do go ahead and train that, you can come back later and gripe and get it removed from the game. Seems to be all the rage these days.

As you were,
PL


You do know I am commander of all the ROFLCOPTERS correct? and sorry english is not my first language.


We're headed off-topic here, but I'll bite. What's a ROFLCOPTER?

0lIO15
Posted - 2010.06.29 17:16:00 - [411]
 

I wish people would STFU about learning skills. THEY AREN'T REQUIRED. You don't want to waste time training them? Then don't. They reduce training time overall, so you're not actually wasting any time. Any idiot with half a brain should be able to figure out that the time savings comes with higher rank skills. Saving or not saving 30 minutes off Gallente Frigate 4 is hardly a game buster. If you want to get started with a basic tackle/L1 mission runner, you can be good to go in a few days. Learn how to do some f*cking math and don't forget the training bonus.

ROFLCOPTER: ever see Curley do that spinning around on the ground thing in 3 stooges?

Conmen
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2010.06.29 17:33:00 - [412]
 

Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Conmen
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Conmen
So all you new players hoping for this you got at least one "non bitter vet" on your side and ...


I read that last bit of your post and almost fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard. Are you the "non bitter vet"? LMFAO

Consider training your language skill to at least a 4. Oh wait. That skill wouldn't do anything ( except make it easier for people to understand your rantings ). Of course if you do go ahead and train that, you can come back later and gripe and get it removed from the game. Seems to be all the rage these days.

As you were,
PL


You do know I am commander of all the ROFLCOPTERS correct? and sorry english is not my first language.


We're headed off-topic here, but I'll bite. What's a ROFLCOPTER?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boh92DrYEWs

Also stop trolling the noobs about liking the learning skillz YARRRR!!

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2010.06.30 02:06:00 - [413]
 

Originally by: Ultim8Evil
14 pages and no CCP input?

Impressive.
Welcome to the Skills Discussions forum. Sad

Bonny Lee
Caldari
Starkstrom
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.06.30 11:42:00 - [414]
 

I remember what a pain it was to get learnings to 5 and then advanced to 4 (yes i know now only 4/4).
If CCP decides to get rid of learnings 3 things must happen if they want me to be satisfied.

1. All people get +10 as baseline
2. All people get the EXACT amount of SP invested
3. Those SP will be applied with the new tool.

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.06.30 14:40:00 - [415]
 


Admiral Chrom
Posted - 2010.06.30 14:59:00 - [416]
 

/sign

Great Idea, new player would have a lot more fun and old player would be happy about the "free SP".

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.30 15:30:00 - [417]
 

As I posted in the Assembly Hall topic of the same nature:

For those that learned the Learning skills, CCP should allow those players to redistribute the skill points in other fields and get compensated for the skill book cost. Also, these pilots should retain a subtle speed bonus based upon how advanced they were with the whole tree. Thus those that had it maxed out should have this bonus for about two years, slowly weakening over time.

And then it is over.

No, there should NOT be a free-for-all attribute bonus for everyone. People constantly demand the removal of this set of skills. So CCP should remove them and call it a day. Let everyone train at the rate of those that never trained the Learning skills. People want their cake and eat it too - screw it. Let players train with attributes they set-up through the neural remapping and implants they can afford.

Yep, this will harm me too, but too many whiners demanding the removal AND the bonus they entailed all on one silver plate.

Let's really make this a cold, harsh game again.

-----

So who is up for the challenge of no Learning skills AND no attribute bonuses?

Takseen
Posted - 2010.06.30 15:41:00 - [418]
 

Originally by: Guttripper


Let's really make this a cold, harsh game again.

-----

So who is up for the boredom of no Learning skills AND no attribute bonuses?


Fixed your post.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.30 15:46:00 - [419]
 

When you reach a point in the game where _any_ skill under a week to train has you mentally telling yourself, "Oh, a short one." ...

They're all boring.

Admiral Chrom
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:10:00 - [420]
 

Is there any statement from CCP about this topic?


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