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Kurfin
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.25 10:16:00 - [361]
 

As someone who has all the learning skills trained to 5, except presence at 4, I would love to see the learning skills abolished. It puts off new players, and we need a flow of new players into the game (and the $/£/Ä that they bring with them) to keep the servers switched on.

Those complaining that 'we had to train them, so everyone coming new into the game should too', seem to be overlooking the fact older players already have a huge advantage. An advantage that removing the learning skills isn't going to come close to closing.

With all the support skills, and the complexity of the game in general, it's already hard enough to hit the ground running. They are just an unnecessary time sink that adds nothing to the game.

Nepenthis
Darqsyde Exploration Limited
Posted - 2010.06.25 11:48:00 - [362]
 

Edited by: Nepenthis on 25/06/2010 11:52:49
Edited by: Nepenthis on 25/06/2010 11:49:54
As a new player (5 months in) here's my humble opinion on learning skills.

During the trial a friend who played advised me about learning skills, so i started learning them, I got them all rank 1 to 4, and rank 2's to 4. As far as the game goes, it was dull, and not a great advertisement for the game for a newer player, as all it does is highlight the skill difference between yourself and older players. As a veteran of online games, i was expecting this (i first started EQ at the third expansion - so i know the score), but how many truely new players might look and think god it's going to take me 2 months just to do learning, i'll never be any good. If i'd not been pointed the way of eve uni in my first week i'm not sure i'd still be here, being solo, and doing nothing but learning skills might well have put me off.

The big question is how many people give up on the game after the trial, and how many of those might not have quit had they not been put off by learning skills. I dare say CCP know these numbers from their surveys etc.

The arguments are quite simple really, learning skills are clearly bad for new players, no one can really argue this, when you first start the last thing you want to be told is you should learn all the learning skills before you start to learn any fun skills.

Old players, put the time in, and fair play to them, they have reaped the rewards over the years for it. Does that mean it should not be changed? It's easy to forget that the advantage you have for learning them all those years ago will never go away, it'll always be reflected in the millions of extra skill points you have because you trained them. Arguably the people who it effects most are the short-medium term subscribers, as they've gone through the pain but have no reward yet. However i would not be too bothered, as for a 10M SP player, getting the learning points to add again would make a big difference.

My solution would be, leave learning skills in the game, give everyone the SP to buy full learning skills, including every new player in the tutorial. Advise them to spend it on learning skills in the tutorial, but let them spend it how they choose. Old players can then spend this "bonus" SP however they choose so they've won yet again. This leaves learning skills as a choice you make, but removes one of the hurdles to getting new players hooked on eve in the 3 week trial. In many ways this i guess is what the purpose of the SP speed bonus is, but i don't quite think it cuts it. As even bonused you could spend your entire 3 week trial learning nothing but learning skills.

Turdilious
Posted - 2010.06.25 14:31:00 - [363]
 

I disagree wholeheartedly. I have only seen players encouraged by learning skills. I have seen new players realise learning skills are so important since they pay off in the long term. This is very much like the benefits young people see after staying on to go to college. I actually have never once seen anyone put off by learning skills.

I donít think that many players have a problem with learning skills. Usually its people that have a problem with something that complain. If learning skills really do seem to be a problem for players then instead of removing them players could be given most of the learning skills when they first form their character.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.25 15:09:00 - [364]
 

Originally by: Turdilious
I disagree wholeheartedly. I have only seen players encouraged by learning skills. I have seen new players realise learning skills are so important since they pay off in the long term. This is very much like the benefits young people see after staying on to go to college. I actually have never once seen anyone put off by learning skills.

I donít think that many players have a problem with learning skills. Usually its people that have a problem with something that complain. If learning skills really do seem to be a problem for players then instead of removing them players could be given most of the learning skills when they first form their character.



My experience has been quite similar and I too support a type of compromise solution whereby new players get most of the learning skills up front ( like 4/3/4 ).

Xenuria
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.06.25 16:13:00 - [365]
 

I super agree with this.

Remove the tedious learning skills.
Give EVERYBODY the 100% buff
Give everybody the Stat Boost of The non-existent learning skills.

I bareley play this game anymore except to log in and check my skill training tab. The expression "just a few more years of skill training and then I can finnaly play the game" comes to mind alot.

It's like, you are getting milked for your monthly fee because you can't get into any of the ships or use any of the neat stuff and guns until your skills all train up.


The only thing I dislike about this game is how freaking long I have to wait before I can move forward and start doing the next thing.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:01:00 - [366]
 

Perhaps CCP could do away with all those pesky rank one skills like Electronics, Engineering, Gunnery, etc. since all new players MUST train them to level five to get anywhere in the game.

Since level four missions are the money makers in the game, CCP should really just remove level one to three missions, max out everyone in all the lower ships up to battleship.

You know, all these new players, and alt players, are being denied the true richness of this game by having to learn all those low level skills. So when CCP dumps the Learning skills since people are crying a tantrum, hopefully they'll really destroy this game and just max out people into a two to three year maxed out character mark.

Oh yea, sarcasm off.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:32:00 - [367]
 

Originally by: Guttripper
Perhaps CCP could do away with all those pesky rank one skills like Electronics, Engineering, Gunnery, etc. since all new players MUST train them to level five to get anywhere in the game.

Since level four missions are the money makers in the game, CCP should really just remove level one to three missions, max out everyone in all the lower ships up to battleship.

You know, all these new players, and alt players, are being denied the true richness of this game by having to learn all those low level skills. So when CCP dumps the Learning skills since people are crying a tantrum, hopefully they'll really destroy this game and just max out people into a two to three year maxed out character mark.

Oh yea, sarcasm off.



This is my favorite post in days. Maybe even longer. I LOL'd. Thank you GR. You nailed how I feel about this sometimes!

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:55:00 - [368]
 

No I donít support this idea.

I have only seen players encouraged by learning skills. I have never once seen a player put off by them.

Originally by: Guttripper
Perhaps CCP could do away with all those pesky rank one skills like Electronics, Engineering, Gunnery, etc. since all new players MUST train them to level five to get anywhere in the game.

Since level four missions are the money makers in the game, CCP should really just remove level one to three missions, max out everyone in all the lower ships up to battleship.

You know, all these new players, and alt players, are being denied the true richness of this game by having to learn all those low level skills. So when CCP dumps the Learning skills since people are crying a tantrum, hopefully they'll really destroy this game and just max out people into a two to three year maxed out character mark.

Oh yea, sarcasm off.


This pretty much sums up how I feel.

Famble
Minmatar
Three's a Crowd
Posted - 2010.06.25 20:30:00 - [369]
 

Edited by: Famble on 25/06/2010 20:59:24
Originally by: ViolenTUK
No I donít support this idea.

I have only seen players encouraged by learning skills. I have never once seen a player put off by them.



Perhaps this is because the ones whom are truly put off by this simply stop paying their monthly fee and for all intents and purposes disappear, thus why you never hear from them. I left once and am now back; I see most of my learning skills are at 4/3. Getting to 5/4 is on my list and I am NOT looking forward to it.

It's one thing to train something for 6d, 24min, 15sec if I know when it completes that last day I can fit a new rig, or my tank is slightly better. When doing learning skills and you log back in after 6d, 24min, 15sec you get nothing. Then the player being the glutton for punishment he is simply queues up their next learning skill to do it again, and again, and again.

All the while they're playing or doing something else that isn't Eve (I wonder if I'll be logging in while they're training at least). My guess is somewhere between the second and third bout of capping off a learning skill they say to themselves, "why am I paying $15/month for this again?" and leave.

Personally I left once and as a result CCP missed out on ~$360 and you guys missed out on someone to shoot at. Now I'm back and well, we'll see this time around, I'm excited but I was last time too. Only been back a week so the novelty has most certainly not worn off yet!

I don't want a carebear world where I get free epics, one of the reasons I'm here is because this place doesn't cater to the weak. That said, I do have a problem training skills solely so I can be better at training skills.

*Edited for grammar

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.06.25 20:59:00 - [370]
 

Originally by: Famble


Perhaps this is because the ones whom are truly put off by this simply stop paying their monthly fee and for all intents and purposes disappear from the game and forums. Thus why you never hear from them. I left once and am now back; I see most of my learning skills are at 4/3. Getting to 5/4 is on my list and I am NOT looking forward to it.




I completely understand what you mean. In fact there may well be people that may fall into this category. However every single new player that has been trained by myself has been trained to learn learning skills and not one, not one of them has been put off by it. They all play today. This is an observation. Itís not just that. I have spoken to many players in this game that I personally have not trained and I donít recall any of them put off by learning skills.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.25 21:06:00 - [371]
 

Originally by: Guttripper
Perhaps CCP could do away with all those pesky rank one skills like Electronics, Engineering, Gunnery, etc. since all new players MUST train them to level five to get anywhere in the game.

Since level four missions are the money makers in the game, CCP should really just remove level one to three missions, max out everyone in all the lower ships up to battleship.

You know, all these new players, and alt players, are being denied the true richness of this game by having to learn all those low level skills. So when CCP dumps the Learning skills since people are crying a tantrum, hopefully they'll really destroy this game and just max out people into a two to three year maxed out character mark.

Oh yea, sarcasm off.



I have one that's even better! Why not make all the skills follow the learning skills paradigm and require them to be front loaded? and/or front loading the skill's benefits?

Make dedication really pay off
Currently skills apply a uniform bonus, i.e. 5% bonus per skill level for a 25% total bonus. If we apply the 'lot of pain now for a lot of gain later' Learning Skill paradigm, we change it to this:
Level 1 - 1% bonus
Level 2 - 2% bonus
Level 3 - 3% bonus
Level 4 - 6% bonus
Level 5 - 13% bonus
Total: 25% bonus


Or we can front load skill training times to match the learning skills' "Slow speed up front, but very fast traveling" later on paradigm.

Invert the skill point costs of the skills:
Current - For demonstration purposes only, let's say it currently takes a skill
* 1 minute to train to level 1
* 1 hour to train to level 2
* 1 day to train to level 3
* 1 week to train to level 4
* 1 month to train to level 5.

By front loading the skill, the training times become:
* 1 month to train to level 1.
* 1 week to train to level 2
* 1 day to train to level 3
* 1 hour to train to level 4
* 1 minute to train to level 5



Famble
Minmatar
Three's a Crowd
Posted - 2010.06.25 21:09:00 - [372]
 

Edited by: Famble on 25/06/2010 21:09:37
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Originally by: Famble


Perhaps this is because the ones whom are truly put off by this simply stop paying their monthly fee and for all intents and purposes disappear from the game and forums. Thus why you never hear from them. I left once and am now back; I see most of my learning skills are at 4/3. Getting to 5/4 is on my list and I am NOT looking forward to it.




I completely understand what you mean. In fact there may well be people that may fall into this category. However every single new player that has been trained by myself has been trained to learn learning skills and not one, not one of them has been put off by it. They all play today. This is an observation. Itís not just that. I have spoken to many players in this game that I personally have not trained and I donít recall any of them put off by learning skills.


I truly hope you're right and you can count me as one of those people. I feel I'm walking a fine line here of whining and constructive criticism. I abhor the thought of handouts (both in-game and in RL) but there's just something about skills that take days on end to train just so future skills don't take as many days to train.

It's a boring, uninspiring mechanic that could at the very least, use an overhaul.

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.25 22:42:00 - [373]
 

Weird how all the people who were saying "Learning skills are great because they cause all the losers to quit" are now saying "I've only seen players encouraged by learning skills". Cognitive dissonance much? If you're getting to the point that you're lying to YOURSELF and pretending you've met all these new players who think learning skills are awesome, you need to sit back and think about why you're arguing.

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.25 22:49:00 - [374]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Guttripper
Perhaps CCP could do away with all those pesky rank one skills like Electronics, Engineering, Gunnery, etc. since all new players MUST train them to level five to get anywhere in the game.

Since level four missions are the money makers in the game, CCP should really just remove level one to three missions, max out everyone in all the lower ships up to battleship.

You know, all these new players, and alt players, are being denied the true richness of this game by having to learn all those low level skills. So when CCP dumps the Learning skills since people are crying a tantrum, hopefully they'll really destroy this game and just max out people into a two to three year maxed out character mark.

Oh yea, sarcasm off.



I have one that's even better! Why not make all the skills follow the learning skills paradigm and require them to be front loaded? and/or front loading the skill's benefits?

Make dedication really pay off
Currently skills apply a uniform bonus, i.e. 5% bonus per skill level for a 25% total bonus. If we apply the 'lot of pain now for a lot of gain later' Learning Skill paradigm, we change it to this:
Level 1 - 1% bonus
Level 2 - 2% bonus
Level 3 - 3% bonus
Level 4 - 6% bonus
Level 5 - 13% bonus
Total: 25% bonus


Or we can front load skill training times to match the learning skills' "Slow speed up front, but very fast traveling" later on paradigm.

Invert the skill point costs of the skills:
Current - For demonstration purposes only, let's say it currently takes a skill
* 1 minute to train to level 1
* 1 hour to train to level 2
* 1 day to train to level 3
* 1 week to train to level 4
* 1 month to train to level 5.

By front loading the skill, the training times become:
* 1 month to train to level 1.
* 1 week to train to level 2
* 1 day to train to level 3
* 1 hour to train to level 4
* 1 minute to train to level 5





No, I don't like how you're giving these noobs "bonuses" to things when they only put one or two levels into a skill. They should learn to be patient and hard-working before they get any sort of bonus. I think it would be better if all skills went like this:

Level 1 - 1 month to train, 0% bonus
Level 2 - 1 week to train, 0% bonus
Level 3 - 1 day to train, 0% bonus
Level 4 - 1 day to train, 0% bonus
Level 5 - 1 minute to train, 25% bonus

Certain skills though, like Frigates or Gunnery, should be more difficult to train. They should have "Frigates" and "Gunnery" both go to level 5 but give no bonuses to anything, and then have "Advanced Frigates" and "Advanced Gunnery", which require level 5 in the base stats and then give you bonuses at level 5. Also you should only be able to use rookie ships and civilian blasters until you get Advanced to level 5, because noobs need to learn to play and realize it doesn't matter what sort of ship you're in as long as you're good at the game, before they get anything more.

I KNOW for a fact that this would make a better game, because no one I've ever talked to in the game has ever said it wouldn't be a good idea, and I never even had to ask them!

Xylopia
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.26 00:05:00 - [375]
 

Originally by: Guttripper
Perhaps CCP could do away with all those pesky rank one skills like Electronics, Engineering, Gunnery, etc. since all new players MUST train them to level five to get anywhere in the game.

Since level four missions are the money makers in the game, CCP should really just remove level one to three missions, max out everyone in all the lower ships up to battleship.

You know, all these new players, and alt players, are being denied the true richness of this game by having to learn all those low level skills. So when CCP dumps the Learning skills since people are crying a tantrum, hopefully they'll really destroy this game and just max out people into a two to three year maxed out character mark.

Oh yea, sarcasm off.

+Titan V

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.06.26 00:12:00 - [376]
 

Originally by: Mathias Black
Weird how all the people who were saying "Learning skills are great because they cause all the losers to quit" are now saying "I've only seen players encouraged by learning skills". Cognitive dissonance much? If you're getting to the point that you're lying to YOURSELF and pretending you've met all these new players who think learning skills are awesome, you need to sit back and think about why you're arguing.


No. I have never said learning skills cause losers to quit. I have only observed new players encourgaed by learnings skills. I have never seen anyone quit over them ever. Please refrain from calling anyone a liar.

Xylopia
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.26 00:19:00 - [377]
 

Originally by: Xenuria
I super agree with this.

Remove the tedious learning skills.
Give EVERYBODY the 0% buff
Give everybody NO Stat Boost of The non-existent learning skills.


There, I've fixed for you. With that, I'd call a fair deal.

Don't you ask something for nothing.

Grayclay
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.06.26 01:19:00 - [378]
 

CCP collects data when people cancel their subscriptions. They ask why you quit.

You train a handful of new players in a game with 300,000+ players, none of whom quit the game because of the learning skills you told them they HAD to train.

Obviously, your wisdom and omniscience > CCP's statistics.

knentil
Posted - 2010.06.26 01:28:00 - [379]
 

I don't see a problem for buying remaps or extended accelerated training times.

Just place limits by compounding cost per use or something.

Like I think someone already suggested 80 million times..

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.06.26 02:17:00 - [380]
 

Originally by: Grayclay
CCP collects data when people cancel their subscriptions. They ask why you quit.


This is well known. This may well be the reason learning skills are still in the game after 8 years. The issue of learning skills probably isnít raised to often.

Originally by: Grayclay

You train a handful of new players in a game with 300,000+ players,


Good point. 30 or so players who have had early stage tuition by me isnít a great deal. There have been many more players in game who have not received tuition from me who have never noted any complaints. I guess I must be lucky that no-one has ever complained about it...

Originally by: Grayclay
none of whom quit the game because of the learning skills you told them they HAD to train.



To be precise I never told them they had to train them. I told them how it would help them and then let them decide.

Originally by: Grayclay

Obviously, your wisdom and omniscience > CCP's statistics.


What Statistics would they be? Do they exist? Or are they the statistics that have kept learning skills in the game for almost 8 years?

Turdilious
Posted - 2010.06.26 02:26:00 - [381]
 

I would love to see any stats that suggest new players are put off by learning skils. Till then i am guessing more fiction from the small handfull of players that do not like them.

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.26 05:24:00 - [382]
 

Originally by: ViolenTUK

What Statistics would they be? Do they exist? Or are they the statistics that have kept learning skills in the game for almost 8 years?



CCP has already said they ARE removing the learning skills, it's just a matter of when they feel like implementing it. As we all know, they have a tendency to be a bit... slow... about getting things implemented sometimes. And yes, they are aware that sane people find the learning skills boring. The only way people end up "liking" the learning skills is after they've suffered through them and then want to ensure that everyone else has to trudge through the same boring stuff as they did because otherwise it's not "fair".

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.06.26 10:57:00 - [383]
 

Edited by: ViolenTUK on 26/06/2010 10:58:26
Originally by: Mathias Black
CCP has already said they ARE removing the learning skills


No they haven't.

A few years ago they said they were considering removing them but that was a few years ago. CCP have no plans to remove learning skills. If you have evidence to the contrary please post a link and I will post a retraction.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.26 14:30:00 - [384]
 

Originally by: ViolenTUK
Edited by: ViolenTUK on 26/06/2010 10:58:26
Originally by: Mathias Black
CCP has already said they ARE removing the learning skills


No they haven't.

A few years ago they said they were considering removing them but that was a few years ago. CCP have no plans to remove learning skills. If you have evidence to the contrary please post a link and I will post a retraction.


Perhaps this is the same information where CCP said once they remove the learning skills, everyone will automatically gain plus ten attribute points per stat whether you initially trained the skills or not...

Isn't that another infallible claim? Rolling Eyes

Takseen
Posted - 2010.06.26 14:45:00 - [385]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 26/06/2010 14:44:59
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Edited by: ViolenTUK on 26/06/2010 10:58:26
Originally by: Mathias Black
CCP has already said they ARE removing the learning skills


No they haven't.

A few years ago they said they were considering removing them but that was a few years ago. CCP have no plans to remove learning skills. If you have evidence to the contrary please post a link and I will post a retraction.


You're half right, yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgUwEztj28
Fanfest 2009, watch from 38:00 onwards.
They said they want to change the system and they don't like it. They've not said they'd remove them, but it sounds like they're thinking about it among various other options. And now that they have a method to hand out a set amount of skillpoints, flat out removing them and giving you the points back is looking more likely.

And it is mainly the veteran tears that they're concerned about, like the ones you can see in this thread.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.26 15:20:00 - [386]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Edited by: Takseen on 26/06/2010 14:44:59
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Edited by: ViolenTUK on 26/06/2010 10:58:26
Originally by: Mathias Black
CCP has already said they ARE removing the learning skills


No they haven't.

A few years ago they said they were considering removing them but that was a few years ago. CCP have no plans to remove learning skills. If you have evidence to the contrary please post a link and I will post a retraction.


You're half right, yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgUwEztj28
Fanfest 2009, watch from 38:00 onwards.
They said they want to change the system and they don't like it. They've not said they'd remove them, but it sounds like they're thinking about it among various other options. And now that they have a method to hand out a set amount of skillpoints, flat out removing them and giving you the points back is looking more likely.

And it is mainly the veteran tears that they're concerned about, like the ones you can see in this thread.


This is rich. The real tears in this thread are from the butthurts like you who don't like the learning skills. You want them out of the game? That's your problem. It's very interesting this sense of entitlement you and the other newbs have about this. You've guys have got yourself worked up over this to a point where you think the actual problem is the people who are fine with the game the way it is and always has been. YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM. Get it?

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.26 15:31:00 - [387]
 

I remember one of the Alliance Tournaments (maybe the fifth or sixth) where the head of marketing was talking about aspects of the game in-between the matches. The whole Learning skills were brought up and he did not like them. Without specifically stating anything with clarity, he alluded that he despised them due to how quickly people were accomplishing various ship tiers in the game. When CCP released the titan class ship, they envisioned a handful within the game while most players would use battleships, cruisers, and frigates for their battles (like the early years). But CCP was stuck with the problem of hundreds of titans in game without a means of removing them.

Of course, instead of a skill taking one month to train with a full head of learning within would take much, much longer without any learning, which would mean more profit for CCP in the long run since the game would have been a slower paced one instead of how quickly people by-pass things in today's game.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.06.26 15:44:00 - [388]
 

Originally by: Pantload


This is rich. The real tears in this thread are from the butthurts like you who don't like the learning skills. You want them out of the game? That's your problem. It's very interesting this sense of entitlement you and the other newbs have about this. You've guys have got yourself worked up over this to a point where you think the actual problem is the people who are fine with the game the way it is and always has been. YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM. Get it?


Sure got a lot of rage there dude, maybe you should learn to control it better.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.26 16:26:00 - [389]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Pantload


This is rich. The real tears in this thread are from the butthurts like you who don't like the learning skills. You want them out of the game? That's your problem. It's very interesting this sense of entitlement you and the other newbs have about this. You've guys have got yourself worked up over this to a point where you think the actual problem is the people who are fine with the game the way it is and always has been. YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM. Get it?


Sure got a lot of rage there dude, maybe you should learn to control it better.


Naw it's not about rage. It's me getting you corrected on your remark from before. You needed correcting and that's why I'm here. You're welcome. Enjoy. Very Happy

Cheers,
PL

Bandit Doggy
Posted - 2010.06.26 16:51:00 - [390]
 

Here is the REAL solution to all this. Give everyone in game level 5 to all skills. Delete all PC production and put every available item on the market at 1 isk each, then give every player 10 billion isk each. Problem solved, everyone is now equal.

Hmmm, but then there is the problem of experience, how to use the items well. I guess every time you win a battle you get a % penalty to your tracking, ROF, speed and such. THEN everyone will eventually be equal, yeah.... thats it....

If they do take learning skills out, whats the next "time sink" they take out? Ships? Gunnery? Electronics? EVERY skill has benefits to them and take time to learn. Its a fact, get over it.


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