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Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.18 02:08:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: Tripoli
I have reposted it in a new thread in the Features and Ideas Discussion forum, where it should get some attention from the devs


I lol'd.

Vil'helm
Posted - 2010.06.18 03:19:00 - [332]
 

The option to train learning skills should be left as it is. It is exactly that, an option. I started out skipping learning skills, getting to learn the game and once i heard about the skill(s) i whent ahead and trained them. While this training was happening, i was able to continue playing and enjoying the game.

It helps to do them first, but its not a must.

Faccat
Posted - 2010.06.18 06:10:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Vil'helm
The option to train learning skills should be left as it is. It is exactly that, an option. I started out skipping learning skills, getting to learn the game and once i heard about the skill(s) i whent ahead and trained them. While this training was happening, i was able to continue playing and enjoying the game.

It helps to do them first, but its not a must.


It's not a must and it is an option. But it's a horrible option. CCP could introduce an elf race that flies space unicorns to the game and say, "it's an option, not a must, you don't have to play it" and they'd be wrong to do it.

Every other skill outside the learning branch trains for something. Everything in the learning branch merely trains the player to be able to train something. It would make more sense to train communications skills that unlock chat, email and notifications.

Learning skills are a bad decision that puts the starting player at odds with long term play. It's daunting enough to look at people with a 7 year advantage without having to make the decision to fall further behind. Yes, yes, you "earned" that advantage. You've reaped rewards of that advantage for 7 years. At what point would it cost you so little that removing this speed bump to the new player would be worth it? I promise you can still crush the new players in any way you choose, there is no need to run a few of those out before they even get in.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.18 17:04:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: Faccat
Originally by: Vil'helm
The option to train learning skills should be left as it is. It is exactly that, an option. I started out skipping learning skills, getting to learn the game and once i heard about the skill(s) i whent ahead and trained them. While this training was happening, i was able to continue playing and enjoying the game.

It helps to do them first, but its not a must.


It's not a must and it is an option. But it's a horrible option. CCP could introduce an elf race that flies space unicorns to the game and say, "it's an option, not a must, you don't have to play it" and they'd be wrong to do it.

Every other skill outside the learning branch trains for something. Everything in the learning branch merely trains the player to be able to train something. It would make more sense to train communications skills that unlock chat, email and notifications.

Learning skills are a bad decision that puts the starting player at odds with long term play. It's daunting enough to look at people with a 7 year advantage without having to make the decision to fall further behind. Yes, yes, you "earned" that advantage. You've reaped rewards of that advantage for 7 years. At what point would it cost you so little that removing this speed bump to the new player would be worth it? I promise you can still crush the new players in any way you choose, there is no need to run a few of those out before they even get in.


Ok, so the following is a given: "Some new players find the learning skills off-putting"

There are other ways to address that "problem" besides simply removing the learning skills from the game. If trying to appease as much of the player base as possible is one of the goals of pushing for change here...then other types of compromise solutions can and should be looked at besides simply ripping skills out of the skill system that have been there for more than half a decade.

New players have got to stop pointing to the older players and calling "no fair he's way ahead of me". I've been at this for years and there are still people who have literally twice the XP that I have. Doesn't bother me. Never has. New players really just need to jump in and start swimming if they wanna play the game. You can't stand on the banks and scream that the river is flowing too fast.

Having said all of that, I support 2 separate proposals so far that represent good compromises, help give new players a leg-up, and still leave the learning skill system in place. One proposal would see that all characters have or start out with a minimum of 4/3/4 in learning skills. Another proposal suggests giving the learning skills a secondary effect to make them more appealing to train. I like both of these suggestions or possibly some combination of them. I would also possibly favor lengthening the initial double-speed training bonus time. Again a small but noticeable thing that could really help give new players a leg-up and a running start.

Just some thoughts
PL

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.18 19:50:00 - [335]
 

What if CCP created further Epic Arc missions that granted as rewards increases in attribute points?

Faccat
Posted - 2010.06.18 20:55:00 - [336]
 

This whole discussion reminds me of an argument I had with some people about drinking under age. They were all over 21, they had all done their share of drinking under age and they were all against it. They also didn't think I was correct in calling them hypocritical, they insisted that as they got older they finally understood the value in the law.

Basically, anyone who has trained the skills wants to keep their advantage from having trained them. Everyone who doesn't want to take 2 months off to train something that doesn't help them fly/trade/mine/indust doesn't care for them. Justifications will be shifted around accordingly.

CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.06.21 12:09:00 - [337]
 

Edited by: CyberGh0st on 21/06/2010 12:10:08
Originally by: Tippia
No. Those with an adult viewpoint would long since have noticed how new players get mired in training skills that don't get them anywhere in the game and understand how this unfavourably colours their perception of the game. They would also not use such childish epithets as "weak", "lazy" and "stupid" about people who they've never met, and they certainly would know that resorting to ad hominems only show that you have no argument whatsoever.

Incidentally, the CCP devs were calling learning skills, and all the problems they caused, one of their greatest mistakes even back when I started the game… They're going. If you don't like it, feel free to GTFO or start trying to figure out a solution that suits those of us who have trained the silly things.


I seriously never had any problem with learning skills back when I was a newbie, I don't see why newbies should have a problem with it.

On the other hand, I was interested in knowing how it all worked ( like reading Tripoli's posts and figuring out the optimal way to train skills ), and while training these "dreaded" learning skills, I learned how the game itself worked by doing research here on the forums and other places and then putting it into practice.

And if CCP thinks that learning skills are one of their biggest mistakes then they seriously need to revise their priorities !

Swearte Widfarend
Gallente
Aurora Security
Posted - 2010.06.21 15:04:00 - [338]
 

One of my corpmates said it best:
Quote:
Either
  • Skill Times are balanced around players having high learning skills, in which case its a tax
  • or
  • CCP assumes Learning skills are just gravy and we should be thrilled...
but Players have huge senses of entitlement


The point of learning skills is simple to me - if you are in the game for the long haul they matter. If you aren't, they don't. And I have 3 - yes, three - accounts all training learning skills right now. Am I happy? No. But I am making a decision about the viability of those characters for the long haul.

Learning skills are an option for players who want to train even faster. Period. There is no "requirement" to train them. There is no skill that requires them. Get off you entitled asses and choose like adults.

Lorieen
AQ Militis Seprentia
Posted - 2010.06.21 18:01:00 - [339]
 

Quote:
CCP could introduce an elf race that flies space unicorns to the game and say, "it's an option, not a must, you don't have to play it"


I really like this idea can we discuss this next?

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.21 18:30:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Swearte Widfarend

...Get off you entitled asses and choose like adults.



I've tried this approach in this thread. The "entitled ones" don't see it as a choice that you can make. They believe they are required to do it, and do it immediately after character creation and simply sit on station and be miserable for 2 months. They also believe that complete removal of the learning skills is the only solution and that no other compromises can exist. Oh and if you are a veteran player who went to the trouble to train those skills then CCP can just "throw you a bone" for your "butthurt" over the deal. Doesn't matter if you've been here for years. Doesn't matter if you have always been content to simply play the game the way it is. Doesn't matter if you never really gave the learning skills much of a thought. All of that is your problem as a veteran player. It's the system that's broken and it's broken so badly that new players are being driven away from this game in mass! Gee that's funny. They keep setting peak concurrent user records and this year's Alliance Tournament had the highest viewer numbers ever in the history of the tournament. Yup. The learning skills have killed the game. It will be dead next week. Someone should let CCP know about this. Learning skills are the worst game design decision ever made on any game ever in the history of humanity. I think I just rolled my eyes so hard that it actually hurt. Rolling Eyes

Brazero
Amarr
Noble House
Posted - 2010.06.21 19:16:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Swearte Widfarend

...Get off you entitled asses and choose like adults.



I've tried this approach in this thread. The "entitled ones" don't see it as a choice that you can make. They believe they are required to do it, and do it immediately after character creation and simply sit on station and be miserable for 2 months. They also believe that complete removal of the learning skills is the only solution and that no other compromises can exist. Oh and if you are a veteran player who went to the trouble to train those skills then CCP can just "throw you a bone" for your "butthurt" over the deal. Doesn't matter if you've been here for years. Doesn't matter if you have always been content to simply play the game the way it is. Doesn't matter if you never really gave the learning skills much of a thought. All of that is your problem as a veteran player. It's the system that's broken and it's broken so badly that new players are being driven away from this game in mass! Gee that's funny. They keep setting peak concurrent user records and this year's Alliance Tournament had the highest viewer numbers ever in the history of the tournament. Yup. The learning skills have killed the game. It will be dead next week. Someone should let CCP know about this. Learning skills are the worst game design decision ever made on any game ever in the history of humanity. I think I just rolled my eyes so hard that it actually hurt. Rolling Eyes


If you are so unhappy with game design why don't you just leave, you sorry little ****ant. And the rest of you losers out there, hehehe, you know you really suck at this when you have to have the game changed to serve your tiny dried out brains.

Who the hell gave you morons the right to decide how ppl should play the game, what's fun and what's not fun. I have seen you morons post all sorts of garbage on these boards for years now, it never stops. And I'm so bloody tired of it all. Losers, that's what you are.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.21 19:31:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: Pantload on 21/06/2010 20:29:59
Originally by: Brazero
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Swearte Widfarend

...Get off you entitled asses and choose like adults.



I've tried this approach in this thread. The "entitled ones" don't see it as a choice that you can make. They believe they are required to do it, and do it immediately after character creation and simply sit on station and be miserable for 2 months. They also believe that complete removal of the learning skills is the only solution and that no other compromises can exist. Oh and if you are a veteran player who went to the trouble to train those skills then CCP can just "throw you a bone" for your "butthurt" over the deal. Doesn't matter if you've been here for years. Doesn't matter if you have always been content to simply play the game the way it is. Doesn't matter if you never really gave the learning skills much of a thought. All of that is your problem as a veteran player. It's the system that's broken and it's broken so badly that new players are being driven away from this game in mass! Gee that's funny. They keep setting peak concurrent user records and this year's Alliance Tournament had the highest viewer numbers ever in the history of the tournament. Yup. The learning skills have killed the game. It will be dead next week. Someone should let CCP know about this. Learning skills are the worst game design decision ever made on any game ever in the history of humanity. I think I just rolled my eyes so hard that it actually hurt. Rolling Eyes


If you are so unhappy with game design why don't you just leave, you sorry little ****ant. And the rest of you losers out there, hehehe, you know you really suck at this when you have to have the game changed to serve your tiny dried out brains.

Who the hell gave you morons the right to decide how ppl should play the game, what's fun and what's not fun. I have seen you morons post all sorts of garbage on these boards for years now, it never stops. And I'm so bloody tired of it all. Losers, that's what you are.


You get an F- for reading comprehension. Read back through this thread if you would please. So you can actually know what's going on. I have RAILED AGAINST removing or changing the learning skills. You should also adjust the gain on your internal sarcasm detector. My post was laced with it. Also, like the forum mod told me after I got cranked up on here...You gotta leave the insults and personal attacks out of posts on this forum.

*edit*
My first post is on page 8. I started off with: "You don't like learning skills? HTFU or GTFO!" Later I mention the sense of entitlement that is at work amongst people. I was actually agreeing with the poster before me and just vomiting up all the things I've heard from people who don't want to be bothered with training their learning skills. Later, mainly after a forum mod was called down on me, I decided to ease up on my attitude and so "Ok. So if change is inevitable, what sort of change can I live with?" That's where I'm at now. I still actually favor just leaving it like it's been for years, though, really. However, all the screamers about the learning skills have a video that they will be happy to link for you that they claim is undeniable proof that change is coming. We shall see.

Jeendep
Posted - 2010.06.21 19:40:00 - [343]
 

In my opinion, learning skills suck but are a necessity in this game. I used to think they were really bad for the game, but I came to the conclusion that it separates the good players from the mediocre (not always the case, but quite often it is :p ). The players I've met who want instant gratification or want things now turn out to be players I've not enjoyed playing this game with. Eve is known for being a harsh place and I see learning skills as a way to weed out the good and great players from the mediocre ones. That being said, I do think that CCP could upgrade the learning system to reward existing players who've trained them up and newer players a little incentive to. My proposal is this:

-Prereqs : learning tier 1s to 5 // tier 2 to 4
-New Skill : Advanced learning Effeciency (rank 8)(each skill level knocks a rack level of a skill down .4. So at level 5, a rank 5 skill would be a rank 3)

Justification: This proposed skill would reward existing players who've spent the time training up learning skills and would also give players who haven't trained learning skills to train them up.

pressCtrl q
Posted - 2010.06.22 02:27:00 - [344]
 

higher sp, higher clone costs

Kharon Frost
Posted - 2010.06.23 00:43:00 - [345]
 

Just over one year in and this is all I have to say, Skill Management plays a very big and very important role in EVE... shouldn't it!?! For those that appreciate it for that fact there are no issues, everyone else is a lost cause. A game that takes real intelligence and not a bunch of button mashing is my kind of game, and I hope EVE never gets dumbed down to meet the needs of those who desire instant gradifiation, it will be the end of a great game if that ever occurs.

"If nothing is earned then what is its worth? If nothing is of worth, then what is the point?"

I don't need another button masher that is fun for 5 minutes or maybe a month if it is a really good button masher, go play an FPS, (I suggest Dust514, and yes CCP my Golem should be able to nuke all those FPS'ers on the planetTwisted Evil) and leave EVE to those commited patrons who have earned through years of investment... or in some cases, minutes of financial investment... I look forward to many more years of flying, don't ruin it by selling out your most loyal pilots!


Agent 42
Gallente
RADIO RAMPAGE
Posted - 2010.06.24 16:13:00 - [346]
 

Just remove learning skills, and increase the base skills for everyone as if all learning skills were maxed. Maybe reimburse spent SP in Learning so pilots can use them however they please. I doubt you would have serious complaints with that solution.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.24 16:45:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Agent 42
Just remove learning skills, and increase the base skills for everyone as if all learning skills were maxed. Maybe reimburse spent SP in Learning so pilots can use them however they please. I doubt you would have serious complaints with that solution.


The problem with this idea, especially from the point of view of more veteran players, is that you are giving new players something VERY substantial for absolutely free. Whereas veteran players only ever had that through putting in the time to train it. Why should new players be given so much when older players never were. Why is this really a problem now and there are certainly other compromises that don't involve removing the learning skills from the game.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.24 16:48:00 - [348]
 

Well… seeing as how they've discovered an SP reimbursement method, and how that mechanic will be deployed in just a few days, the whole question of "onoz, what will they do to old players who have trained them" suddenly became answered.

Arte
The Darkness Within
Posted - 2010.06.24 17:11:00 - [349]
 

Edited by: Arte on 24/06/2010 17:14:44
Originally by: Pantload
The problem with this idea, especially from the point of view of more veteran players, is that you are giving new players something VERY substantial for absolutely free. Whereas veteran players only ever had that through putting in the time to train it. Why should new players be given so much when older players never were. Why is this really a problem now and there are certainly other compromises that don't involve removing the learning skills from the game.


Been playing since 2004 so I probably count as a veteran - but I would have no problem with newer players getting a leg up bigger than I ever got. An example being the NPE, which was never great when I first joined and you very definitely didn't end up with millions in the account as a result of the tutorials like players get now. I don't resent folks getting a kick-start when they're new to the game, why would I? If they stick around because of a change, it can only be for the good of the game.

A change of the magnitude of removing learning skills would be in the same league of removing "warp to zero".

Like WTZ, there will be no mass exodus from the game as a result of it's introduction and people will adjust very quickly; quite probably getting more accounts as they can get useful alts quicker by virtue of the change.

Agent 42
Gallente
RADIO RAMPAGE
Posted - 2010.06.24 17:16:00 - [350]
 

Quote:
The problem with this idea, especially from the point of view of more veteran players, is that you are giving new players something VERY substantial for absolutely free. Whereas veteran players only ever had that through putting in the time to train it. Why should new players be given so much when older players never were. Why is this really a problem now and there are certainly other compromises that don't involve removing the learning skills from the game.


That's like saying the problem with an instant cure to cancer is that it's not fair to all the people who had chemo.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.24 18:17:00 - [351]
 

Edited by: Pantload on 24/06/2010 18:25:08
Originally by: Tippia
Well… seeing as how they've discovered an SP reimbursement method, and how that mechanic will be deployed in just a few days, the whole question of "onoz, what will they do to old players who have trained them" suddenly became answered.


That change is coming in a few days? Proof or it didn't happen. kthxbai.

Originally by: Arte
Edited by: Arte on 24/06/2010 17:14:44
Originally by: Pantload
The problem with this idea, especially from the point of view of more veteran players, is that you are giving new players something VERY substantial for absolutely free. Whereas veteran players only ever had that through putting in the time to train it. Why should new players be given so much when older players never were. Why is this really a problem now and there are certainly other compromises that don't involve removing the learning skills from the game.


Been playing since 2004 so I probably count as a veteran - but I would have no problem with newer players getting a leg up bigger than I ever got. An example being the NPE, which was never great when I first joined and you very definitely didn't end up with millions in the account as a result of the tutorials like players get now. I don't resent folks getting a kick-start when they're new to the game, why would I? If they stick around because of a change, it can only be for the good of the game.

A change of the magnitude of removing learning skills would be in the same league of removing "warp to zero".

Like WTZ, there will be no mass exodus from the game as a result of it's introduction and people will adjust very quickly; quite probably getting more accounts as they can get useful alts quicker by virtue of the change.


I'm not predicting mass exodus. I'm not even threatening to emoragequit. I don't even mind giving new players an additional leg-up ( to a degree ) beyond what there is now. I have been advocating giving 4/3/4 learning skills for free to new characters. They get most of the effect right away, they save the skill book costs, and can go ahead and train profession-related skills right up front and save advanced learning trainings for later or never. I just think there are other possible solutions besides ripping skills out of the skill system.


Originally by: Agent 42
Quote:
The problem with this idea, especially from the point of view of more veteran players, is that you are giving new players something VERY substantial for absolutely free. Whereas veteran players only ever had that through putting in the time to train it. Why should new players be given so much when older players never were. Why is this really a problem now and there are certainly other compromises that don't involve removing the learning skills from the game.


That's like saying the problem with an instant cure to cancer is that it's not fair to all the people who had chemo.


It's actually nothing like that. Cancer is a serious disease that happens in real life. We're arguing over the rules of a game here and whether to leave them as they've been or dumb them down for the newbs.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.06.24 18:44:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Pantload
Edited by: Pantload on 24/06/2010 18:25:08
Originally by: Tippia
Well… seeing as how they've discovered an SP reimbursement method, and how that mechanic will be deployed in just a few days, the whole question of "onoz, what will they do to old players who have trained them" suddenly became answered.


That change is coming in a few days? Proof or it didn't happen. kthxbai.


This?

Necronous
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:46:00 - [353]
 

Edited by: Necronous on 24/06/2010 19:47:44
Edited by: Necronous on 24/06/2010 19:46:36
With the new upcoming reimbursement system, I have 2 options that I could live with.

Option I Really Like:

  • Use new reimbursement pool to refund SP from ADVANCED learning skills. Give all players, new and old, 5 more points per stat.

  • BASIC learning skills remain, including the skill "Learning" itself.


Option I Could Live With:

  • Use new reimbursement pool to refund SP from ALL learning skills. Give all players, new and old, 10 more points per stat.


Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:48:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Pantload
Edited by: Pantload on 24/06/2010 18:25:08
Originally by: Tippia
Well… seeing as how they've discovered an SP reimbursement method, and how that mechanic will be deployed in just a few days, the whole question of "onoz, what will they do to old players who have trained them" suddenly became answered.


That change is coming in a few days? Proof or it didn't happen. kthxbai.


This?


Ok. So they added a mechanism to reimburse skillpoints. Why does that necessarily mean that removal of learning skills is now a done deal? Why does the removal of learning skills have to be the only solution to this perceived "problem"? Why is there so much opposition to exploring other types of compromises on this?

Viral Effect
Caldari
BRAINDEAD Corp
Posted - 2010.06.24 21:29:00 - [355]
 

Today’s announcement was for a reimbursement of lost skill time in a way of compensation for the extended downtime earlier. CCP are not stupid enough to remove learning skills. There are simply too many that want to keep them.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.24 22:08:00 - [356]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 24/06/2010 22:12:54
Originally by: Viral Effect
CCP are not stupid enough to remove learning skills. There are simply too many that want to keep them.
You mean except for the fact that they want to remove them and the only thing that's been keeping them is figuring out a way that ****es off the least amount of people?

…kind of like what they'll have once that reimbursement mechanic goes live?
Originally by: Pantload
Ok. So they added a mechanism to reimburse skillpoints. Why does that necessarily mean that removal of learning skills is now a done deal? Why does the removal of learning skills have to be the only solution to this perceived "problem"? Why is there so much opposition to exploring other types of compromises on this?
It doesn't directly mean that they'll be removed. However, it does mean that the biggest obstacle for removing them is now gone. And as mentioned, they've wanted to get rid of them for years now — it's been on the table since before I even joined. Three years ago, they wish they had never implemented the silly things. It's not just a perceived problem; it's an actual problem that affects CCP's bottom line, and they have been exploring other compromises and this one is most likely the one that hurts the least.

It's a solution where you don't lose anything, and that's probably about as good as it gets.

Viral Effect
Caldari
BRAINDEAD Corp
Posted - 2010.06.24 22:18:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Tippia

Originally by: Viral Effect
CCP are not stupid enough to remove learning skills. There are simply too many that want to keep them.
You mean except for the fact that they want to remove them and the only thing that's been keeping them is figuring out a way that ****es off the least amount of people?

…kind of like what they'll have once that reimbursement mechanic goes live?



You mean except for the fact they don’t want to remove them (they used to want to)and the reimbursement mechanic is not going to be tied to microtransactions.

Please read CCP Shadows comment.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1341909

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.24 22:50:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Viral Effect
You mean except for the fact they don’t want to remove them
You have some source for this, I take it?
Quote:
and the reimbursement mechanic is not going to be tied to microtransactions.
And that has what to do with the current topic, exactly?

OSGOD
Posted - 2010.06.24 23:45:00 - [359]
 

DRAKE DUKA
Sure older players would be butthurt but I don't think they would unsub over it.

no as long as those skill point plus another 50 mill SP where given to us in compenstation for impatient little bastards like you

TriIIian
Posted - 2010.06.25 09:02:00 - [360]
 

Well it seems as of Tuesday CCP would finnaly have a way to remove learning skills and return the SP to the player to place into skills as they please. Lets hope its not to far away and we will all have full attributes.


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