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Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.06.11 17:45:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 11/06/2010 16:11:11
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Hows that for not achieving anything?
I never said mindless drones weren't useful to others.

Not the mention the difference between the coordination operation of friends and some random noob who heard he had to learn these skills first in rookie help.


Of course, my friends shouldn't listen to ME because that makes them mindless drones. They should listen to YOU because then...they wouldn't be mindless drones.

Wait...what?

Have you ever heard someone say:

"Boy I wish I hadn't trained Learning to 4/4, it was such a waste of time."

No more often than not you hear the complete opposite.

I wish I had done more learning skills.

I wish I had done the learning skills first.

I don't CARE about learning skills.

Train learning skill however you want.

These are all comments I hear, but I've never heard anyone say they REGRET training their learning skills.

However you want to look at it, training learning skills is a net benefit in almost all cases (except that last point of charisma that apparently never pays off). The value of that benefit may vary from person to person, but it ALWAYS is a benefit.

So in absence of knowing what a rookie wants to do, telling him to train learning skills is sound advice in a zero sum game.

Dogen Myestic
Posted - 2010.06.11 18:36:00 - [272]
 

Learning skills: Not fun, remove.

Quote:
You may say it takes depth or strategy out of the game but I disagree, just an ambiguous time sink that all players have to go through before really experiencing the game.


Agreed. Maybe throw the butthurts a bone to make them happy.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.11 18:37:00 - [273]
 

Edited by: Pantload on 11/06/2010 18:42:46
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 11/06/2010 16:11:11
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Hows that for not achieving anything?
I never said mindless drones weren't useful to others.

Not the mention the difference between the coordination operation of friends and some random noob who heard he had to learn these skills first in rookie help.


Of course, my friends shouldn't listen to ME because that makes them mindless drones. They should listen to YOU because then...they wouldn't be mindless drones.

Wait...what?

Have you ever heard someone say:

"Boy I wish I hadn't trained Learning to 4/4, it was such a waste of time."

No more often than not you hear the complete opposite.

I wish I had done more learning skills.

I wish I had done the learning skills first.

I don't CARE about learning skills.

Train learning skill however you want.

These are all comments I hear, but I've never heard anyone say they REGRET training their learning skills.

However you want to look at it, training learning skills is a net benefit in almost all cases (except that last point of charisma that apparently never pays off). The value of that benefit may vary from person to person, but it ALWAYS is a benefit.

So in absence of knowing what a rookie wants to do, telling him to train learning skills is sound advice in a zero sum game.



Well thought out! Well said! Thank you!

Originally by: Dogen Myestic
Learning skills: Not fun, remove.

Quote:
You may say it takes depth or strategy out of the game but I disagree, just an ambiguous time sink that all players have to go through before really experiencing the game.


Agreed. Maybe throw the butthurts a bone to make them happy.


Let me help you correct yourself here. Learning skills are not fun IN YOUR OPINION. In this particular case, you and your ilk are the butthurts and I definitely don't think CCP should throw you a bone. You're weak, lazy, and stupid and you still want a reward. Those of us among you who have a more adult viewpoint can see this. We just need you all to see it or STFU or GTFO.


LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.11 18:45:00 - [274]
 

What if CCP allowed one brand new, pure account a full allotment of all the Learning skills?

CCP would verify that the account is not linked to another account through various means such as owner, home address, credit card number, even potentially the IP address (and other means). While players will devise devious means to get around these barriers, since people are so worried about "new players" getting shafted, then give them a boost.

Meanwhile, the alts crying about removing the skills and gaining ten attribute points can continue to ~suffer~. Twisted Evil

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:21:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Pantload
You're weak, lazy, and stupid and you still want a reward. Those of us among you who have a more adult viewpoint can see this.
No. Those with an adult viewpoint would long since have noticed how new players get mired in training skills that don't get them anywhere in the game and understand how this unfavourably colours their perception of the game. They would also not use such childish epithets as "weak", "lazy" and "stupid" about people who they've never met, and they certainly would know that resorting to ad hominems only show that you have no argument whatsoever.

Incidentally, the CCP devs were calling learning skills, and all the problems they caused, one of their greatest mistakes even back when I started the game… They're going. If you don't like it, feel free to GTFO or start trying to figure out a solution that suits those of us who have trained the silly things.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:35:00 - [276]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Pantload
You're weak, lazy, and stupid and you still want a reward. Those of us among you who have a more adult viewpoint can see this.
No. Those with an adult viewpoint would long since have noticed how new players get mired in training skills that don't get them anywhere in the game and understand how this unfavourably colours their perception of the game. They would also not use such childish epithets as "weak", "lazy" and "stupid" about people who they've never met, and they certainly would know that resorting to ad hominems only show that you have no argument whatsoever.

Incidentally, the CCP devs were calling learning skills, and all the problems they caused, one of their greatest mistakes even back when I started the game… They're going. If you don't like it, feel free to GTFO or start trying to figure out a solution that suits those of us who have trained the silly things.


Was Ad Hominem your vocabulary word for today? I resort to insult because I despise this line of discussion and I despise you people who support it.

LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:52:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Pantload
Was Ad Hominem your vocabulary word for today?
Obviously not, since it would then be words — plural.
Quote:
I resort to insult because I despise this line of discussion and I despise you people who support it.
You need to stop playing the game then, since you despise those who create it.
Quote:
LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!
Not going to happen. Start coping.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.11 21:51:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
They should listen to YOU because then...they wouldn't be mindless drones.
Since I tell people to figure out their own preferred path, yes.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
"Boy I wish I hadn't trained Learning to 4/4, it was such a waste of time."
Ever heard of someone quitting the game because they spent their time on the learning skills? It's all I ever hear around here these days.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
So in absence of knowing what a rookie wants to do, telling him to train learning skills is sound advice in a zero sum game.
For someone who doesn't know what they want to do it is indeed good advice (and those are the very times I trained learning skills), but a) a new player will usually have some short term stuff they want to give a go (otherwise why are they playing?) and all but a few levels of learning skills will impede this and b) it is widely reported that "it is advantageous in the long run to train the learning skills early" seems to translate to "you must train the learning skills now or quit" when said to new players.

So while ideally we should be able to point out to someone the uses of the learning skills and let them figure out their own path, it appears that in practice more useful advice is to a reminder that it is a game which one plays for fun.

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.11 22:37:00 - [279]
 

Edited by: Mathias Black on 11/06/2010 22:37:52
It's funny to imagine if the situation was reversed, and the Learning skills never existed and everyone just started with the higher attributes. Would all these people defending the Learning skills be complaining that they don't exist? "I like EvE, but my one huge problem with it is that skills train way too fast! It took me four days to train this one skill, and it really should have taken 4 days and 16 hours. Also, I think it's terrible that new players can just train whatever skill they want and still be able to advance like the rest of us. They should include some skills that do nothing, but which you have to take in order to reach the normal advancement speed. That way if new players try to train something useful instead of the skills that do nothing, they would get punished like they deserve. The fact that I trained Electronics 4 in 16 hours instead of 17 and a half RUINED the new player experience for me. Slow down the skill progression now, and add the required skills that do nothing ASAP or all the new players are going to drop this game and go to a game with a slower pace and more useless skills!"

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2010.06.11 23:00:00 - [280]
 

I know I'm suprised how this is a problem since it has mostly been the same for 7 yrs. I mean if is this to make Eve more like all other mmos out there? or to get more of those ADD type players? Most players have always been proud that the hard learning curve of this game weeds out the less dedicated players. I still prefer the good ole time tested Eve formula.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.06.12 00:06:00 - [281]
 

Edited by: Sader Rykane on 12/06/2010 00:11:17
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Since I tell people to figure out their own preferred path, yes.


Your friends must love you for it then, I on the other hand prefer to help my friends avoid the mistakes I wish I hadn't made. I dove in and did everything the "wrong" way so they wouldn't have to, and as stated in a thread a I made a long, long time ago. I tried it YOUR way and your way failed. Repeatedly. REPEATEDLY. Wheres my way worked a good 80% of the time. And that's not bull**** facts I pulled out my ass, its based on the 10+ people and 20+ accounts I've introduced to Eve Online.

Quote:
Ever heard of someone quitting the game because they spent their time on the learning skills? It's all I ever hear around here these days.


People have 100 reasons for quitting Eve. But you didn't dispute what I said. Some people tried to train learning skills, failed got impatient and quit. Some people trained the learning skills and stuck around for YEARS. Eve is a game for patient people, the greatest way to show you have the patience for Eve is to show you CAN commit to training the learning skills before going after the "shiny pew pew skills" because it will benefit you LONG TERM.

People who can knock out the learning skills in Eve and knock them out early are the people who have the REAL patience and long term vision.

Quote:
For someone who doesn't know what they want to do it is indeed good advice (and those are the very times I trained learning skills), but a) a new player will usually have some short term stuff they want to give a go (otherwise why are they playing?) and all but a few levels of learning skills will impede this


Learning never impedes anything. That is only a perception that you have. Doing all learnings (apart from the last point of Charisma) will always pay off in the long term. Unless you know for a fact "I intend to only play eve for one or two years". Training all learnings will NOT impede anything. If you don't have the patience to do it, thats on you but just because a new player listens to the my advice when I say "Train 5/4 or ATLEAST 4/4 you wont regret it" doesn't make make them wrong. And more importantly, anyone who was going to quit eve because they did learnings first wasn't going to last very long in this game anyway.


Quote:
it is widely reported that "it is advantageous in the long run to train the learning skills early" seems to translate to "you must train the learning skills now or quit" when said to new players.
Yea, maybe if you're a lemming. What that translates into is the TRUTH.

TRAINING LEARNING FIRST WILL IS ADVANTAGEOUS IN THE LONG RUN.

That's all there is to it, there isn't anything left to be interpreted. If you do it first, you will have wasted less time. For some people that has value, for others it doesn't have as much. Even for ME it wasn't value enough for me to go straight to 5/5. It was enough to make me do 5/4 but even I couldn't push myself farther than that and am only toying with the idea of doing 5's now, after 3 year.

That DOESN'T make the statement any less true.

*EDIT*

And now, more than ever, training learning skills is more important because you are given a massive boost in training time for 1.6 million SP. Its ridiculous the speeds you can achieve if you utilize your first remaps, getting learning skills, and implants. People hitting nearly 5k SP/hour by training learning skills. Sure you can blow that 1.6 million on something like Engineering IV or Mining III or something arbitrary but you WILL kick yourself 1 year down the road for not using that huge bonus on learning to cut the time you spend training "nothing".

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.12 00:56:00 - [282]
 

Edited by: Crumplecorn on 12/06/2010 01:00:55
Originally by: Sader Rykane
I tried it YOUR way and your way failed.
What can I say? I haven't introduced anyone who needed handholding.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
But you didn't dispute what I said.
I showed that what you said was utterly wrong - people don't just complain about having spent time on the learning skills, they outright quit over it.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Learning never impedes anything.
Tell that to the people who quit due to boredom. Every choice has an opportunity cost.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
And more importantly, anyone who was going to quit eve because they did learnings first wasn't going to last very long in this game anyway.
I agree with that, though not because they lack patience, rather because they are willing to do things that lessen their experience on the word of others.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
That DOESN'T make the statement any less true.
I never said it did, I simply said that making the statement to new players will not have the intended effect - rather than playing the game 'efficiently', they will simply quit - the most ineffective 'approach' of all. I don't think the fact that the learning skills confuse new players justifies their removal, but at the same time I don't think people should make this statement when they know it will be misconstrued. Even not telling them anything would be better than that. I expect new players to be able to figure out the game for themselves, but I don't expect them to be able to take factual statements from older players in the correct context. I think you just expect more of them than I do.



Originally by: Mathias Black
It's funny to imagine if the situation was reversed, and the Learning skills never existed and everyone just started with the higher attributes. Would all these people defending the Learning skills be complaining that they don't exist?
You could make this argument about anything. Imagine if AWU never existed and we all just started with the benefits. Would someone come along and say "Hey, we have too much PG, take some away and make it so we have to train a skill to get it back". Unlikely. Should we therefore remove AWU?

Also, if you think the learning skills do nothing, never train them. Good luck.

Salinateion
Posted - 2010.06.12 01:29:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Doppleganger
I know I'm suprised how this is a problem since it has mostly been the same for 7 yrs. I mean if is this to make Eve more like all other mmos out there? or to get more of those ADD type players? Most players have always been proud that the hard learning curve of this game weeds out the less dedicated players. I still prefer the good ole time tested Eve formula.



How in the hell does learning skills make a harder learning curve???? What in the hell is wrong with you people??? Some of you are arguing that it makes a good investment for the period up to 1.6 mil sp or whatever while you have the boost, but that's such an idiotic argument that I can't even begin. I can't even think of something to compare it too, but the entire premise of everyone arguing against the skills is that they themselves do not contribute to the game and that they are a waste of time and should not exist in the first place. Did you pull your argument out of your ass??

Christ, there is no reason to have such useless skills!

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.12 02:44:00 - [284]
 

Assuming I got the numbers correct, here are the payoffs for various learning skills:

The following are the times need for a new character to train the learning skills to varying levels with optimized attributes and accelerated training time.
4/3/4 => Skills trained to: 4 basic, 3 advanced, learning 4

5/5/5 - 116d 2h - 5,432,489 skill points
5/4/5 - 35d 4h - 2,271,314 skill points
4/4/5 - 14d 8h - 1,006,844 skill points
4/3/5 - 8d 6h - 658,764 skill points
4/3/4 - 5d 23h - 448,019 skill points


The following tables show the learning speed gains and the pay off times for the learning skills at various levels with various base attributes. Does not include implants.

Skill Gain: How fast you gain skill points over no learning skills. 194.6% means that you would earn 1.946 skill points for every 1 point that character a with zero learning skill would earn.
Time Reduct: 60.2% means you train a skill in just 60.2% of the time over no learning skills
Payoff: Time in days to break even on the learning skills.


Maximum Base Attributes:
Max Base Attributes: Primary=15, Secondary=9
Skill Time
Gain Reduct Payoff
5/5/5 - 194.6% 51.4% 238.8 days
5/4/5 - 186.1% 53.7% 76.0 days
4/4/5 - 177.6% 56.3% 32.8 days
4/3/5 - 169.2% 59.1% 20.2 days
4/3/4 - 166.1% 60.2% 15.0 days



Worst Case for Base Attributes
Base Attributes: Primary=5, Secondary=5
Skill Time
Gain Reduct Payoff
5/5/5 - 330.0% 30.3% 166.6 days
5/4/5 - 308.0% 32.6% 52.1 days
4/4/5 - 286.0% 35.0% 22.0 days
4/3/5 - 264.0% 37.9% 13.3 days
4/3/4 - 259.2% 38.6% 9.7 days



Average Case Attributes:
Ex: You set both Int and Perception to 12 each in order to train both fitting and flying skills. You then train an Int/Mem based skill.
Base Attributes: Primary=12, Secondary=5
Skill Time
Gain Reduct Payoff
5/5/5 - 223.8% 44.7% 209.9 days
5/4/5 - 212.4% 47.1% 66.5 days
4/4/5 - 201.0% 49.7% 28.5 days
4/3/5 - 189.7% 52.7% 17.5 days
4/3/4 - 186.2% 53.7% 12.9 days



If you spend a little over a month (35d) to train the learning skills to 5/4/5, you'll be saving time anywhere from a little less than two months (52.1 days) to two and a half months (76 days). A month of sitting in your newbie frigate and using all of the accelerated training time will pay for itself by the 3rd month of game time. That is why people obsess over the fricking training skills now that newbies start with 2 remaps and 1.6 million points of accelerated training time. The learning skills pay for themselves so quickly, that you would be crazy stupid not to learn them first thing unless you don't plan on playing for more than two weeks.

Encouraging newbies to focus on the learning skills instead of flying, fighting, trading, mining, or building isn't a great business model, IMO.



Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.06.12 02:57:00 - [285]
 

Edited by: Sader Rykane on 12/06/2010 03:00:27
Originally by: Crumplecorn
What can I say? I haven't introduced anyone who needed handholding.


Right because Eve is HARDCORE. Only those willing to tough it out help should survive. Never help anyone this is a cold dark universe only the strong will prosper! Except of course... people with enough patience to tough out the learning skills without NEEDING to fly around in ships that can pew first right? Training what you want first, instead of what you should means you're so much better than people who can wait?

What happened to your claim that its "just a game."? If its just a game, why should I throw my friends to the wolves? Whats wrong with helping my friends? Oh wait, unless Eve is way too super serious for you to help people you know in real life right? You're full of contradictions.

Quote:
Tell that to the people who quit due to boredom. Every choice has an opportunity cost.


Rofl, Eve is boring as **** 90% of the time WITHOUT even taking into account learning skills.

This game is nothing but vast swaths of boredom punctuated by the occasional moment of white knuckle adrenaline rushes. It's those moments, where you're gambling big where the game becomes fun.

Once again, people who quit Eve because "learning skills are boring" were DESTINED to quit any way. Learning skills was just their convenient excuse at the time.

Quote:
I agree with that, though not because they lack patience, rather because they are willing to do things that lessen their experience on the word of others.


Simply put, I disagree.

Quote:
I never said it did, I simply said that making the statement to new players will not have the intended effect - rather than playing the game 'efficiently', they will simply quit - the most ineffective 'approach' of all. I don't think the fact that the learning skills confuse new players justifies their removal, but at the same time I don't think people should make this statement when they know it will be misconstrued. Even not telling them anything would be better than that. I expect new players to be able to figure out the game for themselves, but I don't expect them to be able to take factual statements from older players in the correct context. I think you just expect more of them than I do.


You and your "throw them to the wolves" mentality is whats wrong here, and its the real reason for why people quit. For each of my friends I laid out everything I knew about eve, explained to them as best as I could why I suggested to train learning skills to X level. What benefit they get from it, and why I wish I had done it.

I gave them the choice, and you're free to feel that I was biased in my reasons, but the fact is I gave them ALL the information I could as neutrally as I could.

If you give a new player all the information and not just say "train learning skills" but truly help them understand what they do and how they will benefit them long term. Most of them will be willing to train them first and wait for the shinies for later.

I mean ****, it takes less than 2 months.





Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2010.06.12 03:01:00 - [286]
 

Well if ppl can't figure out what learning skills are and why they are in the game there is a chance this game is already over their head. The game is a giant sandbox and its up to you to figure out what to do. Some ppl like myself didn't see a huge need to train the learning skills right off the bat until I know I was going to stick it in the game long term. Those that just think the learning skills are a waste of time and useless training well alot of skills in that game are that, sooner you accept the game better it is.

If you think
Quote:
the entire premise of everyone arguing against the skills is that they themselves do not contribute to the game and that they are a waste of time and should not exist in the first place.
You think they don't contribute to the game but I differ. I think they help build character and patience which is something you need in game. Its just part of the game you need to accept and use like a lot of what you do in game, its all the players choice.

I didnt pull my argument out of my ass I'm just trying to pull your head out of yours.



Lady Janey
Posted - 2010.06.12 06:15:00 - [287]
 

Have to say that they should leave the training skills alone.

If people don't want to train them they don't have to, as you can still train any skill you want even without having spent a single second on training your learning skills.

For those that do want to train learning skills or already have, well they get an added bonus of training their total skills faster long term.


Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.12 11:44:00 - [288]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Training what you want first, instead of what you should means you're so much better than people who can wait?
Training what suits you first instead of following instructions which don't suit is bettter.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Rofl, Eve is boring as **** 90% of the time WITHOUT even taking into account learning skills.
Speak for yourself.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
You and your "throw them to the wolves" mentality is whats wrong here
Going from "I've never introduced anyone who has needed help" and "I don't think we should mislead noobs" to "no-one should help anyone ever" is quite the leap.

V'hellu
Posted - 2010.06.12 12:37:00 - [289]
 

Edited by: V''hellu on 12/06/2010 12:38:13
Originally by: Doppleganger
Well if ppl can't figure out what learning skills are and why they are in the game there is a chance this game is already over their head. The game is a giant sandbox and its up to you to figure out what to do. Some ppl like myself didn't see a huge need to train the learning skills right off the bat until I know I was going to stick it in the game long term. Those that just think the learning skills are a waste of time and useless training well alot of skills in that game are that, sooner you accept the game better it is.

If you think
Quote:
the entire premise of everyone arguing against the skills is that they themselves do not contribute to the game and that they are a waste of time and should not exist in the first place.
You think they don't contribute to the game but I differ. I think they help build character and patience which is something you need in game. Its just part of the game you need to accept and use like a lot of what you do in game, its all the players choice.

I didnt pull my argument out of my ass I'm just trying to pull your head out of yours.





You're an idiot. The only thing learning skills do is decrease training time. It doesn't affect gameplay at all, hence they're USELESS and do not contribute to the game itself. And why the hell would anyone want to build character and patience in a ****ing video game??? What the hell is the matter with you?? It's not "The player's choice" either, you have to train the learning skills if you ever want to get anywhere within the game in a decent amount of time!

If you want to build character and patience, go have a ****ing kid or 2 and then build a boat or something. That will give you character and patience. I want to play a game because... I want to have fun, maybe? Is that such a novel concept??? (To play a game FOR FUN, that is).

Learning skills are a waste of time and shouldn't exist, end of story. The other training times (like to get a hulk, for instance, or to get the proper skills just to fly a HAS) are long enough FFS. I shouldn't have to spend another 2 weeks of waiting just to get learning skills to where they need to be.

Neutral pffft. If you're in this game to build character and patience, I think video games in general are beyond your understanding...

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2010.06.12 13:09:00 - [290]
 

Edited by: Doppleganger on 12/06/2010 13:29:29
Did you train the learning skills and did they cause you to quit the game?

If the answer to the last part of the question is no then there is no problem.



Quote:
pffft. If you're in this game to build character and patience, I think video games in general are beyond your understanding...


I use every opportunity I have to improve myself be it no matter what I do, be it a game or whatever. Don't you?

V'hellu
Posted - 2010.06.12 13:40:00 - [291]
 

Edited by: V''hellu on 12/06/2010 13:41:44
Edited by: V''hellu on 12/06/2010 13:41:02
Originally by: Doppleganger
Edited by: Doppleganger on 12/06/2010 13:29:29
Did you train the learning skills and did they cause you to quit the game?

If the answer to the last part of the question is no then there is no problem.



Quote:
pffft. If you're in this game to build character and patience, I think video games in general are beyond your understanding...


I use every opportunity I have to improve myself be it no matter what I do, be it a game or whatever. Don't you?



Actually, the first time I quit playing eve for a while was in part because of things like training learning skills. It's ridiculous. And a lot of the people I know who doesn't want to play eve doesn't want to BECAUSE of ridiculous things in the game like learning skills. And yes, there is an effing problem. I want my sp back so I can put it somewhere more useful instead of having wasted it on skills that let me learn faster.

And how the hell do learning skills help you improve yourself? Are you that much of a loser that you have to depend on a few of the most pointless skills in the game to make you feel better about yourself? Get a life. If I want to improve myself, I'll go to the gym and workout and then read a book on something I'm interested in. If you have to use every little detail in your life, for instance like a few pointless skills in a video game, to improve yourself, then you must have really failed in your life in every aspect that actually matters...

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.12 14:30:00 - [292]
 

Ironic how many exclamation points are appearing as character portraits lately...

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.12 14:50:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: Guttripper
Ironic how many exclamation points are appearing as character portraits lately...


Nah, there was a 'remove learning skills' thread started in General and the moderator locked the thread and referred people to this thread.

Plus a person living in an NPC corp shouldn't throw stones at exclamation points anyway. Very Happy


Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.06.12 14:56:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Training what you want first, instead of what you should means you're so much better than people who can wait?
Training what suits you first instead of following instructions which don't suit is bettter.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Rofl, Eve is boring as **** 90% of the time WITHOUT even taking into account learning skills.
Speak for yourself.

Originally by: Sader Rykane
You and your "throw them to the wolves" mentality is whats wrong here
Going from "I've never introduced anyone who has needed help" and "I don't think we should mislead noobs" to "no-one should help anyone ever" is quite the leap.


Way to ignore 90% of my post.

/thumbs_up.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.12 16:10:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: V'hellu


You're an idiot. The only thing learning skills do is decrease training time. It doesn't affect gameplay at all, hence they're USELESS and do not contribute to the game itself.


Training up your skillset over time is not a part of gameplay? In one sentence you admit that the learning skills reduce training time and in another you say they are useless. They are clearly not useless as they do perform a function. The learning skills are intrinsic to the attribute and skill systems in this game now. The reason you want them out is the same reason that anyone on your side of the argument wants them out. I've said this before and I'll say it again. It's because you are all weak, lazy, and stupid. You want something for nothing and you lack any type of patience or vision. I stand with a great many other people on this: If the learning skills are enough to put you off of this game, then you were going to wind up leaving for one dopey reason or another anyway and we don't want you here.

Now, for the n-th time you whiny ****ing *****es: HTFU or GTFO

Oh and...
LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.12 21:59:00 - [296]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 12/06/2010 21:59:27

Actually, that brings up an interesting point. The learning skill curve may be a good weed out mechanism, however CCP is expanding Eve with things like Dust and even WiS. If CCP is trying to create new aspects to the game, then they'll need to appeal to a wider audience. This wider audience may not necessarily be less hardcore than the current crop of players, but CCP will need to fund their Eve expansion. Which means they may need to "dumb down" or otherwise make the game a bit more user friendly in order to raise the cash (by expanding the player base) to fund the projects to turn Eve into an enormous comprehensive MMO universe that scales from inter-stellar war/trade/politics down to personal one on one combat/trade/politics.

Eve may be hardcore, but with the remaps, accelerated training time, simplified player creation, tutorials, and PI's low barrier to entry, it's pretty obvious that CCP is trying to appeal to a wider market. How long will you stay if Eve continues to "dumb down" or otherwise increases its appeal to less hardcore gamers?


Originally by: Pantload
The reason you want them out is the same reason that anyone on your side of the argument wants them out. I've said this before and I'll say it again. It's because you are all weak, lazy, and stupid. You want something for nothing and you lack any type of patience or vision.


Hypothetical question: What is your pain limit on patience versus payoff? If it were possible to train learning skills for six months, but they paid for themselves a few months later, would you be willing to do so? How many weeks/months would you be willing to train the learning skills before you said the heck with it and trained other skills?


Mr Zog
Posted - 2010.06.12 23:44:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Pantload
The learning skills are intrinsic to the attribute and skill systems in this game now. The reason you want them out is the same reason that anyone on your side of the argument wants them out. I've said this before and I'll say it again. It's because you are all weak, lazy, and stupid. You want something for nothing and you lack any type of patience or vision


The most brought up method for getting rid of learning skill is removing the skills, +10 to base attributes, and reimburse players their skill points plus the cost of the skills books, either through 2x, 3x, whatever training time bonus, or straight up reallocation. You're getting everything you put into the skills back, maybe a little extra for your butthurt if CCP is feeling generous. If you didn't train to 5/5/5, you're getting that too now. New players are starting with nothing you don't have, in other words, no advantage, no gain, just minus some trash skills that CCP has said should never have been introduced in the first place.

You have yet to explain how this is "something for nothing."

Also, lol at the hard ass talk from you. Do you read your posts and think people take you seriously?

"You are all weak, lazy, and stupid!"
*brushes Cheeto dust on shirt, sits down and plays a video game for hours*

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.13 03:11:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Mr Zog
Originally by: Pantload
The learning skills are intrinsic to the attribute and skill systems in this game now. The reason you want them out is the same reason that anyone on your side of the argument wants them out. I've said this before and I'll say it again. It's because you are all weak, lazy, and stupid. You want something for nothing and you lack any type of patience or vision


The most brought up method for getting rid of learning skill is removing the skills, +10 to base attributes, and reimburse players their skill points plus the cost of the skills books, either through 2x, 3x, whatever training time bonus, or straight up reallocation. You're getting everything you put into the skills back, maybe a little extra for your butthurt if CCP is feeling generous. If you didn't train to 5/5/5, you're getting that too now. New players are starting with nothing you don't have, in other words, no advantage, no gain, just minus some trash skills that CCP has said should never have been introduced in the first place.

You have yet to explain how this is "something for nothing."

Also, lol at the hard ass talk from you. Do you read your posts and think people take you seriously?

"You are all weak, lazy, and stupid!"
*brushes Cheeto dust on shirt, sits down and plays a video game for hours*


Let's see...something for nothing...newbs get to train at the same speed that advanced characters can train at now and they don't ever have to invest the time in getting to that point. They just get it for free. Yeah...I was right...that is something for nothing. Is that clear enough dip****?



Cash Render
Posted - 2010.06.13 04:56:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: V'hellu
Edited by: V''hellu on 12/06/2010 12:38:13
Originally by: Doppleganger
Well if ppl can't figure out what learning skills are and why they are in the game there is a chance this game is already over their head. The game is a giant sandbox and its up to you to figure out what to do. Some ppl like myself didn't see a huge need to train the learning skills right off the bat until I know I was going to stick it in the game long term. Those that just think the learning skills are a waste of time and useless training well alot of skills in that game are that, sooner you accept the game better it is.

If you think
Quote:
the entire premise of everyone arguing against the skills is that they themselves do not contribute to the game and that they are a waste of time and should not exist in the first place.
You think they don't contribute to the game but I differ. I think they help build character and patience which is something you need in game. Its just part of the game you need to accept and use like a lot of what you do in game, its all the players choice.

I didnt pull my argument out of my ass I'm just trying to pull your head out of yours.





You're an idiot. The only thing learning skills do is decrease training time. It doesn't affect gameplay at all, hence they're USELESS and do not contribute to the game itself. And why the hell would anyone want to build character and patience in a ****ing video game??? What the hell is the matter with you?? It's not "The player's choice" either, you have to train the learning skills if you ever want to get anywhere within the game in a decent amount of time!

If you want to build character and patience, go have a ****ing kid or 2 and then build a boat or something. That will give you character and patience. I want to play a game because... I want to have fun, maybe? Is that such a novel concept??? (To play a game FOR FUN, that is).

Learning skills are a waste of time and shouldn't exist, end of story. The other training times (like to get a hulk, for instance, or to get the proper skills just to fly a HAS) are long enough FFS. I shouldn't have to spend another 2 weeks of waiting just to get learning skills to where they need to be.

Neutral pffft. If you're in this game to build character and patience, I think video games in general are beyond your understanding...


Considering you're second sentence says exactly what purpose the Learnign skills serve, you're arguement of them servign no purpose is pretty much invalid. But for the sake of this entirediscussion, since they provide no "gameplay" benifits, there should be no complaint about them and the attribute bonus they provide beign completely removed from the game right? Afterall, they provide no gameplay value and as such, we don't nee their benefit at all. Sounds fair to me Smile

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.13 05:17:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: Pantload

Let's see...something for nothing...newbs get to train at the same speed that advanced characters can train at now and they don't ever have to invest the time in getting to that point. They just get it for free. Yeah...I was right...that is something for nothing.



By that logic we should take away the tutorial missions. Taking away the tutorial missions would be a much more effective weed out/hardcore filter than the learning skills could ever be. ugh

If 'something for nothing' improves Eve and increases the player base, then I would say that 'something for nothing' is a good thing. People should be focused on flying, fighting, trading, mining or building when they join Eve. Their first Eve experience shouldn't be "OMG how many learning skills can I cram into my accelerated training time without being bored to tears!?!"



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