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drake duka
Minmatar
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.03.25 04:09:00 - [1]
 

I have most of my learnings to 5/5, some 5/4 so I would have wasted a lot of time either way but I wouldn't be ****ed or anything if this nuisance was removed for the sake of newer players sticking to the game.

Would it be so bad if everyone got +10 and x1.10 learning bonus? Sure older players would be butthurt but I don't think they would unsub over it. I mean wtf were they thinking in the first place?

You may say it takes depth or strategy out of the game but I disagree, just an ambiguous time sink that all players have to go through before really experiencing the game.

What are your thoughts?

, Thanks

Mrs Skraaler
Posted - 2010.03.25 05:30:00 - [2]
 

i agree, it's stupid as hell. CCP has said it was a mistake to implement it but now its too late and we're stuck with it

Omg Corn
Gallente
Alcoholocaust.
Posted - 2010.03.25 07:22:00 - [3]
 

The rich (in skill points) get richer...

How about increasing the duration of the training boost and making the learning skills untrainable during that period?

This would let new players get some decent skills instead of training learning skills for 2 weeks and quitting, and by the end of the period they would know the importance of learning.

Or just can the skills Very Happy

Takseen
Posted - 2010.03.25 09:52:00 - [4]
 

I'd just get rid of the skills entirely and make the +10 attributes the new baseline. I think when this solution was mentioned at the Fanfest NPE panel, the database management guy nearly had a fit, so maybe there's too much work in doing it that way though:)

xXxWardenMagenxXx
Posted - 2010.03.25 10:34:00 - [5]
 

Make all learning books free and available when you start with zero level train, but only useable off trail account

Bin this pathetic 1.6m double training time and make it for a full year and just give it to everyone now. Aiding vets half their lvl 5ís is an obvious boon, but the impact to new players is massive. IMO, future expansions which enable station or terra firma access will open up the interest in Eve, but people will be p*ssed with this sedate training pace. Itís broken. Fix it

Iíve not played WOW (took me a couple of days to figure out what this slur meant) so Iíll save you the time. Canít have stuff either as love game, just canít understand why they get so much right yet have made a hash of this element

Viggen
Posted - 2010.03.25 11:44:00 - [6]
 

I'd be happy if they removed all the learning skills, and gave +10 to base attributes.
But only if they let me reallocate the 5,376,000 SP's I've invested into learning to wherever I liked Cool

NanoiaBR
Minmatar
Jnana Yoga
Posted - 2010.03.25 11:59:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Viggen
I'd be happy if they removed all the learning skills, and gave +10 to base attributes.
But only if they let me reallocate the 5,376,000 SP's I've invested into learning to wherever I liked Cool



Now there's an idea. As a returning OCD player, I started a new character in january. By april I'll finally be able to play, since I'll have all learnings to 5. Some people will say "lol, but you don't have to train the learning skills". True, but it puts you into such an disvantage in the future, that I just can't stop thinking about it. This seems like a sensible solution.

Ksharaa
Posted - 2010.03.25 12:18:00 - [8]
 

+1 to removing learning skills.

The advice to a new player is always: GET LEARNING 5/4 ASAP.

The system is broken.

Aquack
Posted - 2010.03.25 14:22:00 - [9]
 

Simple solution is to do away with the learning skills and penalty for not having them.. As for us older players that did the painful training, let us allocate the SP where we want. It's not like we are asking for anything we didnt work for.

Nico Terces
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.25 14:30:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Nico Terces on 25/03/2010 14:30:13
I agree: Remove learningskills. Just give everyone double trainingspeed for the amount of skillpoints they invested into learning and let everyone start at 15 base. Veterans would not complain and the gap would at least not become bigger...

Boss Lemming
Gallente
BOUNTY. HUNTER. MINING. EXSPLORATION. CORPORATION.
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.03.25 14:55:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Nico Terces
Veterans would not complain


LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Cate Fenring
Caldari
Posted - 2010.03.25 15:22:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Cate Fenring on 25/03/2010 15:22:38
Yes perhaps they should give starters all attributes +11 and remove the 1.6m double training time so people can get used to it a lot faster and don't get nasty surprises.

Diefer
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.03.25 17:19:00 - [13]
 

Funny how these threads always continue ", and give everyone +10" or some equivalent. Do you want to remove learning skills, or gain attributes for free?

Now, my counter suggestions:
a) Remove learning skills from everyone who asks that, but only from those. YARRRR!! No free attribute points either. Twisted Evil Fixes this constant whining real soon.

b) Remove learning skills from everyone, but attributes stay as they are currently. That is, old players get to keep their +9/+10, whatever, attributes. New players get to start without "mandatory" skills (and correspondingly stay at lower attributes). Twisted Evil

fuer0n
Posted - 2010.03.25 17:27:00 - [14]
 

ccp bore me before i quit so i know not to train learning skills too high. pvp chars learn to max as norm.

GavinCapacitor
Posted - 2010.03.25 19:43:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Viggen
I'd be happy if they removed all the learning skills, and gave +10 to base attributes.
But only if they let me reallocate the 5,376,000 SP's I've invested into learning to wherever I liked Cool



Speaking as someone with maxed out learning, this seems reasonable. Remove learning skills, and give people who have trained them the amount of SP they have invested back (and if they were nice the cost of the skill books used).

Now, about that ridiculous min/maxing game with remaps...

drake duka
Minmatar
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.03.25 22:06:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Diefer
Funny how these threads always continue ", and give everyone +10" or some equivalent. Do you want to remove learning skills, or gain attributes for free?

Now, my counter suggestions:
a) Remove learning skills from everyone who asks that, but only from those. YARRRR!! No free attribute points either. Twisted Evil Fixes this constant whining real soon.

b) Remove learning skills from everyone, but attributes stay as they are currently. That is, old players get to keep their +9/+10, whatever, attributes. New players get to start without "mandatory" skills (and correspondingly stay at lower attributes). Twisted Evil


Did you read my post? I said I already have 5/5 I wouldn't stand to gain anything from this change.

Eve is one of the only games i can think of where newer players can never catch up to older ones (unless you count buying characters). We don't need any more advantages over new players. The reason I say +10 is because training is slow as it is, we don't need to remove those extra attributes.

I realize you are probably trolling, if not please stop failing.

Diefer
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.03.25 23:37:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Diefer on 25/03/2010 23:39:45
Originally by: drake duka

Did you read my post? I said I already have 5/5 I wouldn't stand to gain anything from this change.


You said that most were 5/5, and that some were 5/4. Different from all 5/5, yes? Furthermore, in case you have not yet gotten to mathematical breakeven point, you gain if you get to spent the SP again. So, you indeed stand to gain something, yes?
Originally by: drake duka

The reason I say +10 is because training is slow as it is, we don't need to remove those extra attributes.


Now stop and think. The training is slow, agreed, even with +10 attributes. If the learning skills were removed, new players would soon be whining on the forums: "Make skills train faster with practice!" "Make quests to advance skills!" "Make a new skill to help training!" Rolling Eyes "We never get even with older players, they have Isk to buy better implants!"
Originally by: drake duka

I realize you are probably trolling, if not please stop failing.

I could say same to you, seeing that you have started just-one-more thread on subject that was old years ago.

drake duka
Minmatar
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.03.26 00:14:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Diefer
Edited by: Diefer on 25/03/2010 23:39:45
Originally by: drake duka

Did you read my post? I said I already have 5/5 I wouldn't stand to gain anything from this change.


You said that most were 5/5, and that some were 5/4. Different from all 5/5, yes? Furthermore, in case you have not yet gotten to mathematical breakeven point, you gain if you get to spent the SP again. So, you indeed stand to gain something, yes?
Originally by: drake duka

The reason I say +10 is because training is slow as it is, we don't need to remove those extra attributes.


Now stop and think. The training is slow, agreed, even with +10 attributes. If the learning skills were removed, new players would soon be whining on the forums: "Make skills train faster with practice!" "Make quests to advance skills!" "Make a new skill to help training!" Rolling Eyes "We never get even with older players, they have Isk to buy better implants!"
Originally by: drake duka

I realize you are probably trolling, if not please stop failing.

I could say same to you, seeing that you have started just-one-more thread on subject that was old years ago.


Sorry for my douche response before, I see your point but I didn't mention anything about getting SP back which is why I said vets would be angry about it.

Good point about the whines but people whine about most everything in this game ;), I really think this one is actually justified. Sure if this change would happen I should think those who have trained it would get some compensation but remapping the SP is too much imo.

, Thanks

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.03.26 04:30:00 - [19]
 

Since the game is pushing towards Capitals Online, perhaps CCP could remove the Cruiser and Frigate skills and place everyone at level five in their respective races. Of course, the secondary skills to those counterparts should be maxed out too, since the new players would not want to ~waste~ time having to learn Electronics, Engineering, and Gunnery skills.

"Ahhh - it's a game! I don't want to work for anything! Gimme gimme gimme!!!"

-----

As a "veteran", whenever I am playing the market game, I'm glad the 5.5 million in Drones, the nearly 9.0 million in Gunnery, the nearly 5.6 million in Missile Launcher Operation, and 15.3 million in Spaceship Command: 35.4 million skill points are beneficial to me _at that moment_.

Or when I engage the micro warp drives, those 1.1 million skill points in Social are helping me _at the moment_.

Or (this scenario).

Or (that scenario).

Me as the "veteran" with 512,000 skill points in Caldari Frigate will _always_ wtfpwnbbq a "newbie" with 512,000 skill points in Caldari Frigate because I have more skill points overall. Yea right...

-----

All the Learning skill tree does is offer a long term benefit to those that remain with the game a few years in and want to reap the rewards later. There is no obligation to learn them now, later, or ever. Yet people are obsessed with numbers and believe more is better. And the sooner Newbie Day One equals Veteran Year Four is a better game overall in their opinion.

If so, then Eve would not by dying, but already dead.

But what do I know, I'm just a crabby old vet.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.03.26 10:04:00 - [20]
 

People who think they HAVE to train learning, should probably hit themselves repeatedly on the head with a frying pan.

Train it when you feel like it. If you feel like it.

You loose 2 weeks of training because your learning was not done optimally? OH DEAR LORD NOES!
You will loose much more the first time you clone jump to an empty clone, get podded out of your +5 implants, or just forget to update your clone and then die. Did the world just end? Did you not have fun till then? What about after then?

If your fun is limited by how much skillpoints you have, i suggest you move to another game. Try Hello Kitty online or something. EvE is not for you.

Hell i have a friend who never trained any learning AT ALL. Sure most of my other friends who started playing a year later now have 10 mil skillpoints more than him.
Yet he is the one that has a respected alliance, tons of friends, is an established FC, and can mop the floor with you in PvP any time. They on the other hand are not known at all.

So, lack of skillpoints and learning stops you from having fun? The problem is in your head.
Go see a psychiatrist.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.03.26 12:37:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 26/03/2010 12:37:10
To Gutripper and Folksie, please go and watch this CCP Fanfest video, from 38:00 onward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgUwEztj28

They WANT to change the learning skill system, they just haven't figured out a good way of doing it yet.

I kinda wish they would write a dev blog on it, so we'd atleast know what fixes are technically feasible for them to implement.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.03.26 12:57:00 - [22]
 

I am aware they want to change it, point is, till they do why cry about them? Do they stop you from doing anything? Do you have to spend months training them if you do not want to?

Most importantly, why are you so obsessed with your skillpoint total? After a while, there is nothing left to train anyway (that you might be interested in).

Takseen
Posted - 2010.03.26 13:13:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
I am aware they want to change it, point is, till they do why cry about them? Do they stop you from doing anything? Do you have to spend months training them if you do not want to?

Most importantly, why are you so obsessed with your skillpoint total? After a while, there is nothing left to train anyway (that you might be interested in).


I'm sorry, I thought this was the skills forum, where people can discuss the skill system and what's wrong with it at present. And yes, obviously training learning skills is an obstacle because it ultimately delays me and all other new players from training for the fun stuff. And what makes learning skills different from all other ones is that everyone wants to have them eventually, and the longer you leave them the greater the penalty.

And given that it takes weeks or sometimes even months of training time to access many of the different areas of the game, its hardly surprising that people take in interest in how quickly their skills go up. Especially if you only run one account.

Besides, aren't you just saying "learning skills are fine, because I already have all the skills I need to do what I want in EVE"?

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.03.26 14:16:00 - [24]
 

There is no penalty for not training them, now is there?

The penalty is in your head. You are obsessed with never "wasting" a day while training. Because then you will not be cool and the cool kids will not drink lemonade with you and play football.
What you should be obsessed with is never wasting a day having fun while playing.

And getting the learning skills to 4/3 is seriously no work at all. You can do it by injecting a level of learning skill every now and then into your normal plan.

5/4 takes a bit more dedication, but isn't really needed at first. You can easily squeeze it in during your first 2 months or so.

Seriously, if you are first training learning to max, and then training useful skills you are doing it wrong.

And no, i do not have all the skill i want. I never will. And neither will you, even if you have +5 implants and all learning on V/V. Only difference between the two of us is, i am having fun out there training useful skills, you are spinning ships in station and training skills you do not need (except in your head).

Takseen
Posted - 2010.03.26 15:08:00 - [25]
 

Sigh, there's no need to start playing armchair analyst and make stuff up about me. I got my learning skills to 4/3 and then stopped, because that's when the diminishing returns start to kick in pretty hard. And I had to stagger the training time anyway since I couldn't afford the 15 million or so for the advanced skill books. That doesn't make the one week I spent doing that any less of a hassle, nor does it make the system any less stupid.

First you say
"Most importantly, why are you so obsessed with your skillpoint total? After a while, there is nothing left to train anyway (that you might be interested in)." Which will probably be true for most people, after a year or two.
Then you say
"And no, i do not have all the skill i want. I never will."

Its not about 5/5 being a requirement to succeed. Its about having to set aside atleast a week of training during the first month of a newbie's playtime to get 4/3 to avoid falling way way behind later on. Not having that minimum will basically halve your learning speed, which is not really viable if you ever want to fly T2 ships or anything bigger then a cruiser.


Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
Posted - 2010.03.26 15:27:00 - [26]
 

How about this:

Remove all learning skills.
Remove the attribute points associated with learning skills.
Remove all implants that enhance learning attributes.
Credit characters with the base ISK values of the items removed.
Credit characters with the skillpoints invested in learning skills, to be reallocated as desired by the character.
Add a 6th level to all skills.

Then we'd have a near-open-ended skill system. Wouldn't that be cool?

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-






stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.26 15:35:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 26/03/2010 15:38:28

If the concern is over new characters being "required" to train boring, non-internet spaceship skills, then just have new players start with the basic learning skills at 4 and the advanced learning skills to level 3.

That would be enough of a boost to make training a non-issue while leaving plenty of excitement for the OCD > Diminishing Returns crowd. Older players could just be reminded that your "online play experience may change" and to suck it up. (But a skill training time boost would be better.)

Also, since your learning skills are in the database, CCP can implement a new player friendly solution *now* and work on 'crediting' older players *later*.

Personally, "having" to train learning skills makes Eve pretty alt-aholic unfriendly.


Takseen
Posted - 2010.03.26 15:57:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Edited by: stoicfaux on 26/03/2010 15:38:28

If the concern is over new characters being "required" to train boring, non-internet spaceship skills, then just have new players start with the basic learning skills at 4 and the advanced learning skills to level 3.




That's actually a pretty sweet idea, and probably a lot easier to implement. Call it a result of better teaching processes in the NPC starting corps, helping you "learn to learn". So thumbs up for that one.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.03.26 22:45:00 - [29]
 

I have listened and read over the years various aspects to the game CCP would like to change, expand, or remove. While not knocking them, the track record is not the greatest in altering these aspects. Many past additions to the game came up short and were not fleshed out later. Other older aspects to the game have been slowly phased out, perhaps not to offend certain players. The niche of this game, being the cold, dark, unforgiving universe has been heavily changed into a friendly place, in my opinion. Whereas years ago CCP were quite content to have around 15,000 players during prime time (and had even fewer years before I first arrived), today they seem to want greater and greater numbers. This is understandable to gain higher revenues. But to appease the masses, CCP seems to be lowering the lowest common denominator. Anything and everything that was harsh and rough is being changed into smooth and soft. To an older "veteran" like me, the game is being alienated away from what I originally loved about it.

So yes, I know CCP wants to do something with the Learning skill tree. But to me, that is one lingering obstacle that separates the die hard, hardcore player from the "Eve is the (current) cool thing!" instant gratification player. CCP _will_ eventually do something with those skills to appease their newest players. And this slow cascade will continue until another game comes out that is similar to the old version of Eve and many of the old veterans depart, looking to indirectly "work" for something instead of having it all handed to them. Then the recently appeased crowd will vacate, since "Eve is not cool."

I wonder what CCP would do then...?

Hopefully I am wrong and CCP does nothing with the Learning skill tree. I'm still fond of the universe, even though it is a bit ~friendlier~.

/me goes off to watch the Revelations video.

drake duka
Minmatar
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.03.26 22:46:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Edited by: stoicfaux on 26/03/2010 15:38:28

If the concern is over new characters being "required" to train boring, non-internet spaceship skills, then just have new players start with the basic learning skills at 4 and the advanced learning skills to level 3.

That would be enough of a boost to make training a non-issue while leaving plenty of excitement for the OCD > Diminishing Returns crowd. Older players could just be reminded that your "online play experience may change" and to suck it up. (But a skill training time boost would be better.)

Also, since your learning skills are in the database, CCP can implement a new player friendly solution *now* and work on 'crediting' older players *later*.

Personally, "having" to train learning skills makes Eve pretty alt-aholic unfriendly.




That is actually a great idea, +1


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