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Ick Ickagami
The Soul Society
Pax Romana Alliance
Posted - 2010.03.17 17:14:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Mikelangelo
............shut up already.




Ah! Now we see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!



Originally by: Mikelangelo

You people make me sick.



Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.03.17 18:21:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Ick Ickagami
In the real world, Socialism is wonderful!

That is, right up to the point that the government runs out of other people's money.

See Greece, ( and soon, the United States )

When you've run out of tax money, and no other country is willing to buy your junk bond status debt, you are pretty much ****ed, and all those wonderful government freebies go bye bye.




Not true, they can just print more money. Bring on the 100 trillion dollar US currency notes!

FunzzeR
Legion of the Scottish Fold
Posted - 2010.03.17 19:58:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: FunzzeR on 17/03/2010 19:59:35

Seeing how this looks and feels like a massive T2 Bpo and RL politics troll bait thread, I'll bite anyways.

First off that is one astute professor who provided an excellent object lesson. As an econ background my hat is off to him. Mediocrity always will breed more mediocrity.

DISCLOSURE: I DO NOT OWN NOR HAVE OWNED ANY T2 BPOS IN THE PAST.

As for T2 Bpos I still honestly don't get the fuss why those who don't have them want them removed or nerfed. Having been around for the lottery and had 4 accounts each with all 3 character slots collecting RPs. I was unlucky enough to not get a bpo.

Anyways people say they are isk printing monopolies, which they were before invention was introduced. But these days given the insanely high barrier to entry I can think of multiple alternatives that make as much or more isk with little or no effort. (No I won't reveal them either--do your own homework)

All you need is some sense of intelligence and a willingness to do some research. (having a spreadsheet to keep track of data will help too).

I'm not going to even touch the RL politics but I will wholehearted agree with Voogru, too much government will bog down any progress technological, economic, or social.

How accomplished or wealthy a person is, should be a function of their efforts and not what is given to them. This applies to both EVE and RL.

badmouther
Posted - 2010.03.17 20:06:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Ick Ickagami
In the real world, Socialism is wonderful!

That is, right up to the point that the government runs out of other people's money.

See Greece, ( and soon, the United States )

When you've run out of tax money, and no other country is willing to buy your junk bond status debt, you are pretty much ****ed, and all those wonderful government freebies go bye bye.

Greece is a parliamentary constitutional republic, and the US is a constitutional republic. neither has a socialist economy. its a shame americans are so poorly educated that they dont understand what socialism is. just because something isn't privatized doesnt mean its socialist. or are your sewage waste treatment plants part of the global homosexual socialist demon plot to take over the world?

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.03.17 21:05:00 - [35]
 

If someone were suggesting, that everytime a T2 BPO was used to manufacture an item everyone in the game receive the item, then the OP would be applicaple.

As far as I'm aware, no one has made that suggestion. This means the OP is pure strawman.



We're not asking that the profits from the use of T2 BPOs be shared equally among all players. We're asking that the T2 BPOs be removed from the game.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.03.17 22:00:00 - [36]
 

Quote:
We're not asking that the profits from the use of T2 BPOs be shared equally among all players. We're asking that the T2 BPOs be removed from the game.


that still promotes a type of equality maybe not through direct isk profiting but through the removal or nerfing of assets to bring about a level playing field that is, infact, equal. A situation mind you that is not what EvE is about.

Show me another game where there are as many people that have items that are so rare THEY or a few others ARE THE ONLY ONES WITH THEM. rarity and price value of items is blatant in Eve. it is all you freaks coming in that are nutjobs that for some reason cant see the association with bpo rarity or just refuse to accept it.

Kat Bandeis
Caldari
Space Pods Inc
Posted - 2010.03.17 22:55:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Frank Corncob
This is a country in which the rich pay their fair share.


Awesome, the "fair share" argument. Penalize those that work hard, create business, hire employees, and actually LEARN a trade, and reward those that do the minimum, skate by without contributing, breed, and eat bon-bons all day. Nice. I've always found it curious how some actually have the stones to demand more from others than they themselves are willing to do.

Me, I'm a fan of pulling your own weight. Never been without health insurance because I have always worked, either for others or self-employed. Spent time and sacrificed much to get where I am and have what I have, and no slacker loser is going to get more than they already take from me. Despite the current Administration's tactics, agenda, and obfuscation, AVERAGE Americans will never accept Socialism because, at it's heart, it's lazy, and most of us believe in doing your "fare share" to get what you want, and not demand it from a governmental body.

Dacryphile
Posted - 2010.03.17 22:57:00 - [38]
 

Story is fake, teacher would have lost his job even if the students "agreed" to it.

Fun little fairy tale for the atlas shrugged crowd though.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.03.17 23:18:00 - [39]
 

Quote:
Story is fake, teacher would have lost his job even if the students "agreed" to it.

Fun little fairy tale for the atlas shrugged crowd though.


hehe. lies.

you would like to think so. without the waiver most definately. with it its a slap on the wrist to the professor and dont do that stupid s*** again. Like i said previously i honestly cannot remember the school. Seeing as how most schools are extremely liberal i dont see it causing the epic back lash you are stating.

Jarod Leercap
Posted - 2010.03.18 00:01:00 - [40]
 

While I'm not advocating the removal of T2 BPO's, I don't think the suggestion that there is no market impact associated with them flies.

One of the prior QEN's actually considered this question and ultimately concluded that the impact of T2 BPO's is a function of the market volume vs the production capability provided by the T2 BPO's. For items where the production volumes the BPO producers could manage was a big share of the market volume, the T2 BPO's had a significant impact on the profitability of invention. However, for items where the BPO producers could account for only a small fraction of the market volume, the impact was found to be small.

I don't really have any way of validating this conclusion, but it smells right.

At the end of the day, I think the economy is healthy if you can turn a profit from crafting. To the extent that you can't do that for some items, it's a sign of less-than-perfect health, in my view. That said, while there are some crafted items that aren't profitable, there are many that are. Thus, I wouldn't call the EVE economy "sick"--especially when compared to some other MMO's.

From that point, the broader question becomes, "what makes crafting certain items unprofitable"? While T2 BPO's are a factor, I would rate them a minor one. For T1 producers--especially beginning T1 producers--the primary problem is loot. Some of the better-than-T2 named (Meta 1 to Meta 4) items also have a negative impact--on both invention and T2 BPO's. Given my druthers, I'd probably focus attention on this before doing anything with on the T2 BPO/invention front.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.03.18 00:49:00 - [41]
 


Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.03.18 00:56:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
I like cheap stuff, please keep undercutting each other so I can get more cheap stuff :)

I never really understood how america runs on a two party system.
For that matter so does the UK.
It's rediculous, especially when the main arguments from either side is "we're not as bad as them".

That's rubbish, I want a political party that turns up and says "we're awesome and this is why"

But then I also think that political office should be offered to those who are the head of their field.

Education minister goes to the best head teacher in the country.
Chamber of commerce goes to the top of the banking institution.
that kinda stuff, rather than some member of a corporation or minister that was friends with this one guy back in the day and is owed a favour.

Quick, grab the pitchfolks and over throw your governments then we'll have free milk and cookies for all :)


Praise him! For he is.. Moses.

I too, am a lil bewildered by two party systems. Kinda leaves the majority that likes/dislikes ideas from both in no-man's land. Why they ultimately end up bouncing back and forth between the two. And the reasons why one stays through power longer could completely be for no reason of their own doing, but the previous parties actions that took longer to take effect (yes, thank you reagan for the '90s). And of course some things end up promoting an economic downfall, the wolf in sheep's clothing that has very next to nothing to do with what any political party does (yes, thank you interweb for the '00s). And then you want to punch one of'em in the face for suicide ganking a good chunk of your countries jobs (yes, thank you clinton for the trade act with china in '99 that walmart took FULL advantage of).. but you can't cause you respect the guy for gettin' as many hummers as he could in the oval office, trying to break kennedy's record.

So demented yet so raw its almost delightful that cooky two party system.

Cheers! To the potential collapse of the two party system in the States. God speed in its course.

What.. communist, socialism, T2 BPOs.. ? Oh.. T2 BPOs make it possible for other productions to exist at the volumes they do. If you don't got one, but hate them. Shut up and buy one before your jealousy kills babies. Don't got one, and don't care.. congratulations, you already understand how to work ur own ventures properly to achieve your own goals. Isn't that the hidden point of the OP?

Charles Park
Posted - 2010.03.18 09:10:00 - [43]
 

Quote:
Theres people that say "BUT THATS THE RISK YOU TAKE", I don't see CCP going and removing overpowered ships from peoples hangars, they fix the system. Invention was the fix for T2 BPO cartels that where ebaying ISK left and right which is why they boosted invention 10 fold shortly after it was implemented.

To be fair, I think most of the BPO 'removal' proposals have had some form of compensation to the BPO holder; replacing the bpo with a crap ton of max run bpc's, etc.

And there certainly is precedent for this; the speed nerf made Snakes worth only a fraction of what they used to be. They weren't removed from the game but the people who had invested in them recieved no compensation for their lost value.

Leaving the RL politics aside, the post above is spot on: BPO's only **** up low volume items. In high volume markets the BPO doesn't affect the inventors profit margins at all, they just provide the BPO holders with a bigger margin than the inventors.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.03.18 10:06:00 - [44]
 

Quote:

Country 'A' is the reality of the Republican definition of 'Capitalism'



...

Quote:

Country 'B' is what Republicans derogatively label 'Socialism'



Never lived in country "A", but country B was SO GOOD on paper and resulted to be TERRIBLE in practice.
Just sayin'

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.03.18 12:44:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Jovialmadness on 18/03/2010 12:45:21
Hey look it very well could be a "legend". Let's not go and bet our houses on snopes either ok. Especially considering they are calling it a legend and refer to their proof with, "legend has it that etc etc". Hehe.

I simply heard it on the radio years ago. If that diminishes it for you that it could be a civic legend or whatever then so be it. If you think that students aren't that ******ed and teachers aren't that crazy and socialism, in whatever blah blah form, isnt plain stupid then you are rediculous and need to be perma podded in game.

Dana Mownhobbit
Posted - 2010.03.18 12:45:00 - [46]
 

If there was an option to gradually improve the ME and PE levels of invented T2 BPCs, would anyone still care about T2 BPOs?
I would not. That's way I don't understand the heat against the BPOs. Don't nerf them, buff invention instead.
I read someone's comment that this was a technical problem some time ago. But can it be so hard? I doubt it. Whether you let a BPC inherit the ME/PE levels (or some of it) of the T1 BPC or have another research activity which takes more datacores and has the chance to improve the levels of the bpcs (or not, or even destroy it if failing utterly). Both would work and I can't imagine why this can't be implemented. I even would prefer the latter variant, since it is another sink for datacores but it's optional (risk vs. reward). it might only be profitable for some items, rather the most expensive ones. good enough for me.

Maybe some Dev should comment this, I miss information about CCP's opinion on that whole matter anyway. But I notice that the T2BPO issue is the dominant topic these days in this forum.

And allthough I find this RL politics/economics comparison utterly ridiculous, i cant resist to comment.
Since someone above implied, that hard work translates to wealth and noone which doesn't work as hard deserves to get a share from that wealth.
If this was true, then investment bankers and hedgefond managers are the most hard-working ppl on the planet? Riiiiiight...

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.03.18 12:51:00 - [47]
 

Quote:
If this was true, then investment bankers and hedgefond managers are the most hard-working ppl on the planet? Riiiiiight...


sweet! Now we have the current crimes division piping in with their wealth of wit.

Assuming done legit if someone controls hundreds of millions of dollars of other peoples money let's just give them a nice government salary of 45,000 usd a year riiiight?.

Man gtfo here.

Ick Ickagami
The Soul Society
Pax Romana Alliance
Posted - 2010.03.18 13:23:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: badmouther
Greece is a parliamentary constitutional republic, and the US is a constitutional republic. neither has a socialist economy. its a shame americans are so poorly educated that they dont understand what socialism is. just because something isn't privatized doesnt mean its socialist. or are your sewage waste treatment plants part of the global homosexual socialist demon plot to take over the world?


Socialist POLICIES are socialist POLICIES, and they bankrupt nations whether they are "socilaist" nations or not.

No government can "cradle to grave" people like they want. Government exists to provide infrastructure and security so that private enterprise can get on with allowing people the option of failing or succeeding. When Government forces people into a situation where they can not fail on their own, the government itself will eventually do the failing for everyone.

Proven time after time after time.


Dana Mownhobbit
Posted - 2010.03.18 13:29:00 - [49]
 

So they get a lot of money from a lot of ppl to make the best out of it, and they get a 'fair' share of that money so they don't get the money for only their hard work, but also for their responsibility to prevent them from becoming corrupted and steal even more money?
Which proves hard work doesen't just translate to more money.

And why doesn't the same rule apply to government members which handle billions of tax money from a lot of ppl to make the best out of it?

The latter are treated like being corrupt anyway and the former are just hard-working. Mmmhkay Rolling Eyes

Now, are the banksters overpaid or the government underpaid?

Which is it, Mr. Antisocialism? Laughing

Winters Chill
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.03.18 13:37:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Winters Chill on 18/03/2010 13:43:11


Sounds like a thought experiment more than an actual case study. Considering that asking real life students to sacrifice a year of their academic life is a huge breach of ethics. Waivers indeed... my arse.

In addition; the thought experiment itself seems to be a rather flawed interpretation of marxist thought. It argues that in socialism the "weak" will pull down the "strong" until the "strong", dejected by the "weak"s lack of motivation also become the "weak". How very right wing and so typical of the yanks. The only marxist factor was that the students where punished collectively for behaving out of self interest, which is fair enough.

To truly represent marxism: all the students would be graded together however the students would have been organized and elected a governing committee of the brightest in order to gauge who was a weak student and who was a strong student, the collective group would then study together, working out of collective communist interest.

Those who would not work or worked against the interested of the group would be sent to the camps, to be re-educated...




Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.03.18 14:13:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Jovialmadness on 18/03/2010 14:16:44
Oh whatever Dana.

Why are you comparing government employees who handle billions to private sector parties that do the same?

I'll tell you. You are because you are comedy and can't decipher the differance.

Here it is.

I don't send my income tax to a federal auditor or way and means member to gain PROFIT from it I do so to pay my taxes so the government can utilize it to pay for the peoples housing that don't own tech 2 bpo....wait I mean have jobs.

I send my money to investors, who are skilled in finance, to invest my money to make profit for retirement or whatever short term profiting goals I might have.

One is strictly a passive bean counter with great responsibility that doesn't actively and
dangerously invest the funds in high risk ventures. The other is an active low-high risk investor.

Think you can grasp that?

Curly Quote
Posted - 2010.03.18 16:52:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 17/03/2010 02:36:16
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 16/03/2010 22:30:34
Actually happened.

Economics professor and his class early in the semester up in i believe north u.s.(been awhile since i heard it on the news radio so cant remember the school) were discussing socialism.

The professor was explaining that a true socialist society where the very few have power and wealth where the masses have less is viewed as unequal in the eyes of the everyday socialist. He basically states that in a capitalistic society like ours it could never work but the class of young college students disagreed.

The professor became aggravated and decided to offer an option for the semester concerning grades. He stated that all tests would be averaged to become equal. The smarter lads in the class immediately started raising hell as they knew what was about to happen. The rest of the class eventually talked them into it. The professor passed out wavers which the entire class signed.

test one: test average B grade. the professor asked what the A students did and they said they studied hard. the restof the class was a mix of casual studiers and people that just didnt give a flip.

test two: test average D. the students that raised all that hell early on were asked what they did this time. they said they hadn't studied nearly as much because they dont want the losers in the class milking off their sweat. naturally the casual studiers studied even less and more people from the casual study group went over to the non study group.

final semester test. test average F. nobody studies at all for this one or very little as they felt that everyone else would atleast work hard enough to keep them in the D grade category so they could pass the class.

All failed the semester. see you next semester or you better super audit.

moral of the story. life isnt fair and everyone diserves their own rewards. if you dont like it go play wow.


Cool, so anecdotal evidence against socialism. Seems solid, bro.

The biggest problem I see about this whole perspective is that it assumes that socialism in an economy is analogous to an academic class in which everyone gets the same grade. This is hardly the case. The most obvious critique of this perspective is to ask the question: Is there grade scarcity? And the answer is a resounding NO. Thus, this is hardly any sort of economic analogy and your professor should be laughed out of his position for his suggestion that it is so.

In any case, I can give you an anecdote of a course I took in financial portfolio modeling while at UCSD in which all of the students in my class were to be given the same grade, and we were to be graded only on our final project. Everyone worked their butts off, we produced an amazing project, and we all got A+s. It was one of the best classes I've ever taken, and I remember every practically single detail about the course.

badmouther
Posted - 2010.03.18 17:54:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Ick Ickagami
Socialist POLICIES blah blah blah

You didn't bother to read the wiki page on Socialism or you would've kept your mouth shut instead of writing more irrelevant idiocy. Teabaggers are a bunch of morons who dont and cant think for themselves. They need the GOP and Roger Ailes to do that for them.

Time to move this thread to Out of Pod experience.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.03.18 18:52:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
that still promotes a type of equality maybe not through direct isk profiting but through the removal or nerfing of assets to bring about a level playing field that is, infact, equal. A situation mind you that is not what EvE is about.


Socialism seeks to ensure equality of outcome. It fails becuase if I get reward not based on my effort, I do not put in much effort.

This is not what I'm promoting at all.

What I want is for special advantage to be removed to prevent profit and power from being concentrated into few hands who can maintain that profit and power with less effort that it would take other to aquire it do to changes in game mechanics.

Equal oppertunity is NOT equal outcome.

Level playing field is NOT socialism.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.03.18 18:56:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa


I still don't understand most of the game mechanics that I'm engaging in debate about, and I still think said mechanics should be changed based on my misunderstandings and erroneous beliefs.




Rolling Eyes

ExplicitViolence
Posted - 2010.03.18 19:07:00 - [56]
 

Why in the name of all that is right in Political Science is this thread not locked yet?

Most likely answer? It is just hilarious to watch Europeans and Americans go at eachother without understanding the differences in their politics.

Semper Nefarius
Posted - 2010.03.19 11:32:00 - [57]
 

I hope some people has already pointed out to the OP that the story is fake, since I can't belive a professor (in economics no less) would completely miss the not so subtle differences between socialism and communism. Living in one of the most socialist countries in the world, I can testify it's pretty sweet here (average living standards are high, high level of eduacted people, free healtcare etc...).

I love how you start the post with "actually happened", when it has been a rumor floating around for ages, and you can't remember the specifics. Laughing

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2010.03.19 12:33:00 - [58]
 

Hmm, let me try to find something those against and in support of communism can both agree on, based on what I've read so far:

It's the people that fail communism, not the system itself.
In a capitalist world, a communist nation has a hard time being succesful.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.03.19 13:06:00 - [59]
 

The reason the thread has not been locked is because there is a relationship between what some people want in this game that would break the game and the end result of that story. I am showing how regardless if the story is real or not that as long as you aren't a total political nut job you will see atleast the remote possibility of this story being conceivable. Super impose this story into eve and remove all perceived unfair aspects of the game so that all we can achieve and look forward to is pure numbing equality then it would simply turn eve into star wars after the whiners and lucas' greed prevailed.

Nothing can ever quench the unattainable need need need of a jealous whining eve player though. Definately not those that can't even see a link between subjects. I'll give it to you that the comparison is more suited as an example of why eve is eve and all the rest of the games are succk.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.03.19 16:40:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
The reason the thread has not been locked is because there is a relationship between what some people want in this game that would break the game and the end result of that story.


Really? Really?

I think I've read most of the posts on T2 production, and I have yet to find one person suggesting that the profit from T2 BPOs should be shared equally among all players.

Asking for equality of oppertunity is NOT the same as asking for equality of outcome.

What you are doing is called fallacy of definition.

Removal of T2 BPO = some sort of equality.
Policies seeking equality of outcome = communism.
Communism is similar to socialism, just to a greater degree.
Socialism = evil.

Therefore, removal of T2 BPO = evil.

What a steaming heap...


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