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Situis
Posted - 2010.03.16 16:25:00 - [1]
 

Okay, got myself in a bit of a situation and I have no idea what to do about it.
Around last november I got a parking ticket for 'not displaying' at a pay & display car park. I had brought a ticket, yet the attendant obviously didn't spot it. I get a nice little sticky on my window demading 40, raising to 80 if I don't pay within a certain amount of time.

So I appealled the charge, showing them my reciept, to which they responded saying I'd have to get back to them after they've sent me another letter (???).

Two weeks ago I recieved another letter, asking for 80, with a time to appeal in, so I appealed again, again with the receipt. Now I've just got a response saying that a reciept is not proof of purchase, and that the parking ticket was only valid if displayed. They've also got two little pictures of my car, and in one I can just about spot the ticket, although it is not too clear I admit.

Once again, they're asking for 80 (an amount I cannot afford), for something that is clearly THEIR mistake. I was wondering if I had a foot to stand on legally, if there's anything I can do to get out of this bloody payment? Anyone else had a similar experience?

Kari Kayira
Easter Corporation
Vanguard.
Posted - 2010.03.16 16:42:00 - [2]
 

Not too familiar with your legal system, but where I live if you get a ticket, you pay it just to avoid additional grief. I know someone who had their license permanently revoked in an state because they challenged a minor traffic violation. Judges hate people wasting their time over what they consider pocket change.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2010.03.16 16:56:00 - [3]
 

These people are always right, even when they're wrong. Best thing you can do is to shut any of them you know out of your social life, metermaids are a pariah on society.

If I'd seen someone bash the skull in on one of them I'd pretend I didn't see a thing.

annoing
Amarr
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2010.03.16 16:59:00 - [4]
 

There is such a thing as a Parking Ombudsmen in most areas where you can request the appeal to be dealt with. It will mean a meeting with the Ombudsman where you can show your proof and they will show theirs. The Ombudsman decision is final and no further appeals will be entertained after that.

Good luck


Tallaran Kouros
Cryptonym Sleepers
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:25:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: annoing
There is such a thing as a Parking Ombudsmen in most areas where you can request the appeal to be dealt with. It will mean a meeting with the Ombudsman where you can show your proof and they will show theirs. The Ombudsman decision is final and no further appeals will be entertained after that.

Good luck




This.

Heretic Burner
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:32:00 - [6]
 

This is a prime example of how tyrannical a government becomes with unarmed citizens.

Sazkyen
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:34:00 - [7]
 


I have no idea how your legal system works in this case, but here's some general advice anyways:

- it's possible that you're (by law) required to pay even if you appeal and by not paying you are probably escalating the situation
- you could probably ask for payment in instalments
- you could very probably appeal to a court
- you could also try to raise your voice in the town hall (or whatever it is called around there)


But most of all, you should get them to answer to you in WRITING. Ask them to deny your appeal formally.

Situis
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:37:00 - [8]
 

I'll get hold of this ombudsman guy, I assume it's the same in England as Wales?
Frankly I don't see why if a receipt/ticket can be shown the fine still stands, seems ridiculous.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:41:00 - [9]
 

Resistance is futile.

TraderJade
Caldari
Secure Production Research and Trading
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:56:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Situis
I'll get hold of this ombudsman guy, I assume it's the same in England as Wales?
Frankly I don't see why if a receipt/ticket can be shown the fine still stands, seems ridiculous.


What a ticketing office says and what is actually true are totally different things.

If you have a receipt and you can see the ticket on display in the picture (even if it's barely visible) then you have a good case to show you bought a ticket and displayed it.

Fight it, more people who sit back and just pay it when they have done nothing wrong just plays into there robbing hands.

Zofe Stormcaller
B4D W0LF
B4D W01F
Posted - 2010.03.16 18:28:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Zofe Stormcaller on 16/03/2010 18:28:21
I'm on a train right now, i have some info on this, i'll post when i get home.

I challenged and won.

Tallaran Kouros
Cryptonym Sleepers
Posted - 2010.03.16 18:28:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Heretic Burner
This is a prime example of how tyrannical a government becomes with unarmed citizens.


Oh **** off already with your gun propaganda, or do you just choose to shoot the person issuing the ticket instead?

baltec1
Posted - 2010.03.16 18:33:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Heretic Burner
This is a prime example of how tyrannical a government becomes with unarmed citizens.


Most of these cases happen with private companies...

My favorate was when they clamped a fire engine so the firemen got the jaws of life outTwisted Evil

Heretic Burner
Posted - 2010.03.16 19:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
Originally by: Heretic Burner
This is a prime example of how tyrannical a government becomes with unarmed citizens.


Oh **** off already with your gun propaganda, or do you just choose to shoot the person issuing the ticket instead?


No, of course not. The person issuing the ticket is just doing his job. What you do is overthrow the government.

Zofe Stormcaller
B4D W0LF
B4D W01F
Posted - 2010.03.16 20:05:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Zofe Stormcaller on 16/03/2010 20:14:24
OK, it works like this:

There are two types of parking ticket in the UK: Penalty charge notices and private parking tickets. PCNs are issued by officials, people like police and traffic wardens. The rest are issued by private companies for parking on private land. The ticket will say if it is a PCN or not. If you got a ticket for parking in a private car park then it is almost certainly not a PCN.

PCNs are a legal document and it is covered by criminal law, so they are not easy to fight as it can end up in court.

Private parking tickets are not covered by criminal law. Parking without paying and displaying is breaking contract law, which is civil law, and not criminal law. The fact of the matter is that for the contract law to be valid the terms of the contract have to be clearly laid out on the car park's signposts and the contract is with the driver of the car, not the person the car is registered to so it is highly doubtful they know who was driving, and it is their responsibility to prove that so they are very easy to fight.

They will try the scare tactics, usually a letter that looks like it came from a soliciter but probably didn't. They will ask the DVLA to tell them who the car is registered to and send that person the letter. A strongly worded letter in reply asking them to lay out the terms of the contract, prove they displayed it correctly, prove you were the person that breached the contract (complete with pictures of you driving in and out of their car park) and so on usually gets them to drop it apparently. I tried it and it worked. I'll see if I can find the letter I sent them...

ETA: Here is the thread on a different forum that I was discussing this under at the time with the letter I based mine on (I reworded it to suit my situation better). There is all the information you need in there.

Linkage

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2010.03.16 21:18:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Heretic Burner
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
Originally by: Heretic Burner
This is a prime example of how tyrannical a government becomes with unarmed citizens.


Oh **** off already with your gun propaganda, or do you just choose to shoot the person issuing the ticket instead?


No, of course not. The person issuing the ticket is just doing his job. What you do is overthrow the government.


Erm.

Yeah, okay. Laughing

"I got issued a parking ticket! Rise up, my fellow ticket issuees! Reclaim this glorious land and proclaim FREE PARKING FOR ALL!"

I'm sure the OP can easily rally up a militia for this cause.

Nimone Situis
Viziam
Posted - 2010.03.16 22:05:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Nimone Situis on 16/03/2010 22:06:04
Originally by: Zofe Stormcaller
Edited by: Zofe Stormcaller on 16/03/2010 20:14:24
OK, it works like this:

There are two types of parking ticket in the UK: Penalty charge notices and private parking tickets. PCNs are issued by officials, people like police and traffic wardens. The rest are issued by private companies for parking on private land. The ticket will say if it is a PCN or not. If you got a ticket for parking in a private car park then it is almost certainly not a PCN.

Edit; Wrong char, this is OP
PCNs are a legal document and it is covered by criminal law, so they are not easy to fight as it can end up in court.

Private parking tickets are not covered by criminal law. Parking without paying and displaying is breaking contract law, which is civil law, and not criminal law. The fact of the matter is that for the contract law to be valid the terms of the contract have to be clearly laid out on the car park's signposts and the contract is with the driver of the car, not the person the car is registered to so it is highly doubtful they know who was driving, and it is their responsibility to prove that so they are very easy to fight.

They will try the scare tactics, usually a letter that looks like it came from a soliciter but probably didn't. They will ask the DVLA to tell them who the car is registered to and send that person the letter. A strongly worded letter in reply asking them to lay out the terms of the contract, prove they displayed it correctly, prove you were the person that breached the contract (complete with pictures of you driving in and out of their car park) and so on usually gets them to drop it apparently. I tried it and it worked. I'll see if I can find the letter I sent them...

ETA: Here is the thread on a different forum that I was discussing this under at the time with the letter I based mine on (I reworded it to suit my situation better). There is all the information you need in there.

Linkage


I believe in the original letter they said it was a PCN, yet the latest ones look very much like they come from a private company, and they are now calling it a fixed charge notice. They don't seem to have pictures of me driving in and out of the car park, but they definately have pictures of my car in there.
Also went on that link, the letter looks excellent. The place I parked is Willen Lake, and I can't decide wether it's government owned or not

Edit; Wrong char, this is OP

krysus montar
Posted - 2010.03.16 23:01:00 - [18]
 

This

Originally by: Zofe Stormcaller
Edited by: Zofe Stormcaller on 16/03/2010 20:14:24
OK, it works like this:

There are two types of parking ticket in the UK: Penalty charge notices and private parking tickets. PCNs are issued by officials, people like police and traffic wardens. The rest are issued by private companies for parking on private land. The ticket will say if it is a PCN or not. If you got a ticket for parking in a private car park then it is almost certainly not a PCN.

PCNs are a legal document and it is covered by criminal law, so they are not easy to fight as it can end up in court.

Private parking tickets are not covered by criminal law. Parking without paying and displaying is breaking contract law, which is civil law, and not criminal law. The fact of the matter is that for the contract law to be valid the terms of the contract have to be clearly laid out on the car park's signposts and the contract is with the driver of the car, not the person the car is registered to so it is highly doubtful they know who was driving, and it is their responsibility to prove that so they are very easy to fight.

They will try the scare tactics, usually a letter that looks like it came from a soliciter but probably didn't. They will ask the DVLA to tell them who the car is registered to and send that person the letter. A strongly worded letter in reply asking them to lay out the terms of the contract, prove they displayed it correctly, prove you were the person that breached the contract (complete with pictures of you driving in and out of their car park) and so on usually gets them to drop it apparently. I tried it and it worked. I'll see if I can find the letter I sent them...

ETA: Here is the thread on a different forum that I was discussing this under at the time with the letter I based mine on (I reworded it to suit my situation better). There is all the information you need in there.

Linkage


Seem them a letter stating that you weren't the driver of the vehicle at the time, they need to contact them. Plenty of templates on 'net...

Situis
Posted - 2010.03.16 23:49:00 - [19]
 

Well, done a bit more research and it turns out what the company is doing is basically illegal, by saying the notice is a PCN and such.
Apparently the best advice is to completely ignore them.

Thanks for the help guys!

Jago Kain
Amarr
Ramm's RDI
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2010.03.17 00:06:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Jago Kain on 17/03/2010 00:08:18
I did some scratting about the interwebs and the company that issued the ticket (I had a look at the other thread to find out who they were) seem to make a habit of pushing their luck.

In any case this isn't a fixed penalty notice, so criminal law isn't applicable. Civil and contract law might apply but there is only a contract between you and the issuer if you are daft enough to agree that there is.

Effectively the demand for money is an invitation to enter into a contract with these muppets.. and one that you are not obliged to take them up on.

I've had a few letters from agencies of this type over the years (ASDA went through a phase of employing ****hheads to smother my windscreen in demands for cash if I stayed too long for their liking) and I ignored every single one of the letters knowing that they are unenforceable.

It is possible, though very unlikely, that they might send someone round to your address to scare you into treating with them. Don't. If they send anyone, tell them to get the feck off your property (this is called "withdrawing implied right of entry") and not to call again.

Also, contacting someone who doesn't want to hear from you can amount to harrassment, so the possiblity of legal action (criminal in this case) against them arises if you ask them to back off and they don't.

In short, **** 'em; they have nothing to threaten you with and if you don't want to give them any of your money, you don't have to.

edit; don't take my word for it though; have a look at this and also the site it is from... lots of usefull info for motorists there.



Nebulous
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.03.17 05:49:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Nebulous on 17/03/2010 05:50:08
Originally by: Situis
Okay, got myself in a bit of a situation and I have no idea what to do about it.
Around last november I got a parking ticket for 'not displaying' at a pay & display car park. I had brought a ticket, yet the attendant obviously didn't spot it. I get a nice little sticky on my window demading 40, raising to 80 if I don't pay within a certain amount of time.

So I appealled the charge, showing them my reciept, to which they responded saying I'd have to get back to them after they've sent me another letter (???).

Two weeks ago I recieved another letter, asking for 80, with a time to appeal in, so I appealed again, again with the receipt. Now I've just got a response saying that a reciept is not proof of purchase, and that the parking ticket was only valid if displayed. They've also got two little pictures of my car, and in one I can just about spot the ticket, although it is not too clear I admit.

Once again, they're asking for 80 (an amount I cannot afford), for something that is clearly THEIR mistake. I was wondering if I had a foot to stand on legally, if there's anything I can do to get out of this bloody payment? Anyone else had a similar experience?



If you can't prove you bought that ticket then there are a few other avenues you can go down. My main worry before trying any of the below is that you have already replied in a different way, worth a try anyway, i've got away with paying numerous parking tickets and seat belt fines in the past.

Firstly you can write to them quoting the following from the Bill of Rights Act 1689: "That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void".
After doing this they will probably send you another letter quoting a "motoring act" and they will say it repeals the bill of rights (but worded a bit more cleverly), if they do this then send them back another letter saying that the motoring act is a "normal statute" and the Bill of rights is a "constitutional statute" and that a normal statute can never repeal a constitutional one, the tossers that they are will either then stop sending you letters or carry on sending demands, in either case keep a copy of all the letters sent and always send them by recorded delivery. (if you want to be really cheeky then report them to the police for violating the bill of rights, they won't do anything about it but they still have to look into it)

Secondly you can try a conditional acceptance, this means you are "not refusing" to pay, you are merely offering to pay if they provide certain proofs (which you are well within your rights to do). Some examples below.

1. Upon proof of claim that I am a person and not a human-being.

2. Upon proof of claim that you know what a 'person' actually is, legally speaking.

3. Upon proof of claim that you know what the difference between a 'human-being' and a 'person' actually is, legally speaking.

4. Upon proof of claim that I am XXXXX XXXXXXX and not Joe Bloggs. (for example)

5. Upon proof of claim that the charge was a result of a lawful investigation unmarred by prejudice.

6. Upon proof of claim that I am a member of the society whose statutes and subsisting regulations you are enforcing.

7. Upon proof of claim that I showed you some sort of identification.

8. Upon proof of claim that there is a nameable society that I belong to and that the laws covered within this alleged transgression state that they apply to me within that named society.

9. Upon proof that the vehicle you applied a ticket to is indeed my vehicle and not a vehicle that has been cloned.

10. Upon proof that the ticket issuer matched my "license plate" to my VIN plate"

The last option and the one I always go for is to stamp on the letters "NO CONTRACT, RETURN TO SENDER", i'm not sure you can do this now though as you may have contracted by appealing.

------------------------------------------

Nebulous
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.03.17 06:13:00 - [22]
 

Remember, by fighting a PCN with letters you should not end up in court, but you should always be prepared to, if you ever feel you will be to nervous to stand for yourself in court then I suggest you just pay the fine, in court it is not as simple as proving you are right, they will use a lot of dirty tricks to dupe you into admitting you are wrong.

An example I can think of was a case here in the UK regarding TV licensing, a guy from the UK opened the door to the TVL, the TVL officer asked if he had a TV, he replied "no", in the background the TVL officer could here the TV, he then told the man "I can hear your TV" at which point the man said " I have not got a TV" and then closed the door.

The TVL officer reported the alleged violation but told a lie, he said he had seen the TV through the window and they were watching "tennis", when this got to court the man defending himself claimed that there was no Tennis programs on any of the channels according to the listings he took with him that he got from the internet, papers and TV guides, when this was highlighted the TVL man admitted he had lied, the judge who was furious ordered the TVL officer to leave the court, he then apolagised to the defendant, a lady who was also present at the court (representing the TVL) said the man "I am sorry, but now this case is nearly at an end, would you consider buying a TV license in the future?" at which the defendant replied "yes", the judge then said you must have a TV then and awarded the victory to the TVL and gave a hefty fine to the defendant.

So basically what I am saying is that you need to be prepared for dirty tricks like this, just knowing you are right will not be enough in some cases.




--------------------------------

Cikulisuy
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2010.03.17 06:49:00 - [23]
 

tell them to screw off. (politeness optional)

Cikulisuy
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2010.03.17 07:05:00 - [24]
 

i'd show for a glorious ticket revolution, not like everything else isn't already completely screwed too.

Losmandy
Amarr
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.03.17 16:14:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Losmandy on 17/03/2010 16:16:48

In the UK you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law,if you pay up your admitting guilt maybe?
If their photo evidence is indecisive tell them you wish to appeal.

I had a similar problem last December in a pay and display, my ticket was not upright but was displayed as required in their terms and conditions basically was readable to any one who was not blind.

They dropped the action when said I wished to appeal. There are several websites with info guides on how to appeal. Google is your friend.

Good luck with whatever you decide

Jago Kain
Amarr
Ramm's RDI
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2010.03.17 16:20:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Losmandy
Edited by: Losmandy on 17/03/2010 16:16:48

In the UK you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law...


Yeah... keep believing that. You are in for a very rude awakening at some point.

/me sings "It's not a long way, to a police state, it's not a long way to go...."



Tallaran Kouros
Cryptonym Sleepers
Posted - 2010.03.17 17:30:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Nebulous
Edited by: Nebulous on 17/03/2010 05:50:08
Originally by: Situis
Okay, got myself in a bit of a situation and I have no idea what to do about it.
Around last november I got a parking ticket for 'not displaying' at a pay & display car park. I had brought a ticket, yet the attendant obviously didn't spot it. I get a nice little sticky on my window demading 40, raising to 80 if I don't pay within a certain amount of time.

So I appealled the charge, showing them my reciept, to which they responded saying I'd have to get back to them after they've sent me another letter (???).

Two weeks ago I recieved another letter, asking for 80, with a time to appeal in, so I appealed again, again with the receipt. Now I've just got a response saying that a reciept is not proof of purchase, and that the parking ticket was only valid if displayed. They've also got two little pictures of my car, and in one I can just about spot the ticket, although it is not too clear I admit.

Once again, they're asking for 80 (an amount I cannot afford), for something that is clearly THEIR mistake. I was wondering if I had a foot to stand on legally, if there's anything I can do to get out of this bloody payment? Anyone else had a similar experience?



If you can't prove you bought that ticket then there are a few other avenues you can go down. My main worry before trying any of the below is that you have already replied in a different way, worth a try anyway, i've got away with paying numerous parking tickets and seat belt fines in the past.

Firstly you can write to them quoting the following from the Bill of Rights Act 1689: "That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void".
After doing this they will probably send you another letter quoting a "motoring act" and they will say it repeals the bill of rights (but worded a bit more cleverly), if they do this then send them back another letter saying that the motoring act is a "normal statute" and the Bill of rights is a "constitutional statute" and that a normal statute can never repeal a constitutional one, the tossers that they are will either then stop sending you letters or carry on sending demands, in either case keep a copy of all the letters sent and always send them by recorded delivery. (if you want to be really cheeky then report them to the police for violating the bill of rights, they won't do anything about it but they still have to look into it)

Secondly you can try a conditional acceptance, this means you are "not refusing" to pay, you are merely offering to pay if they provide certain proofs (which you are well within your rights to do). Some examples below.

1. Upon proof of claim that I am a person and not a human-being.

2. Upon proof of claim that you know what a 'person' actually is, legally speaking.

3. Upon proof of claim that you know what the difference between a 'human-being' and a 'person' actually is, legally speaking.

4. Upon proof of claim that I am XXXXX XXXXXXX and not Joe Bloggs. (for example)


Oh god not this "Free Man" tripe.

Nebulous
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.03.17 17:33:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
Oh god not this "Free Man" tripe.


Rather than calling it tripe why don't you be clever about it and pick it apart? Probably because you can't, you are more than welcome to run it across anyone you may know in the "legal" profession as well.


-----------------------------------------

Grimveous
Minmatar
Dashavatara
Clownz'R'Us
Posted - 2010.03.17 17:42:00 - [29]
 

Just ignore and keep there funny threatening letters as trophies, thats what I have done with my last 3 parking tickets.

As long as its not from council/police as previously stated, completely safe to ignore as they wont be able to prove who was driving.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2010.03.17 20:23:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Grimveous
Just ignore and keep there funny threatening letters as trophies, thats what I have done with my last 3 parking tickets.

As long as its not from council/police as previously stated, completely safe to ignore as they wont be able to prove who was driving.


Doesn't fly here, the owner of the car is responsible for all tickets to it, regardless of who was driving it.


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